Hydrogen Fuel

[cartm58]

At a going away reception for the receptionist at site, l was talking to an engineer who drives a Discovery D2 TD5 and he was saying that he has imported a piece of kit from Italy to convert the D2 to run on Hydrogen gas and he would be making his own hydrogen gas a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas and he was also going to convert his home heating to Hydrogen gas. He was saying biggest problem was finding space within engine bay for the conversion equipment as he wanted to keep piping as shot as possible for the Hydrogen gas.

I will try and get some better details from him when l go back to site next week and post.

Anyone else heard of the conversion process and is it only suitable for Diesel powered vehicles

[Michael2]

A friend recently put a water to gas convertor in his TD5 D2 and reckons he's using up to 16% less fuel. But still early days and he's waiting to get more milage.

Basically electrodes in water make Browns Gas, which is seperating the oxygen and the hydrogen atoms which bubble up and get sucked into the air intake. I can't remember if he put it pre or post turbo.

I haven't heard of anything that makes enough gas to power the vehicle completely. There's a lot of (often conflicting) opinion on the net. I'd like to get a chance to play around with the unit in the Disco and see how much gas per min it actually produces.

I can understand how a TD5 may lean out the mix, but I don't know how a Tdi will improve economy if it relies on mechanical injection.

[WhiteD3]

err.................................rubbish.

Two things:

First, the energy required to separate hydrogen from water is huge, you're talking power stations, not alternators!

Second, if it was so simple, we'd all be doing it.

A good article can be found here.

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1769/

[awabbit6]

... a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas

At what pressure?? A fundamental gas law is that a gas will expand to occupy its container. From 1 litre of water, 111g of hydrogen is produced. Put it what ever sized container you like and claim the volume you want!


err.................................rubbish.

Two things:

First, the energy required to separate hydrogen from water is huge, you're talking power stations, not alternators!



Well ... not quite. It can be done with low power supplies, but you can not produce hydrogen at a rate that is anywhere near sufficient to power a car or to improve an existing fuel supply. I have separated water many times as a demo for science classes. In 40mins you are lucky to produce 100mL of hydrogen (at atmospheric pressure). Not enough to power a car, but enough to make an impressive pop when ignited.

Simply looking at energy conversions and losses, it is simply not and will never be viable to power an internal combustion engine with hydrogen as it is being produced from electroyzed water.


Paul

[justinc]

A friend of mine has his 130 4BD1 turbo on it, and has claimed a lot better fuel efficiency.
The only thing I'm concerned about, (although apparently there is a VERY low risk of this actually happening,) is that it is drawn in to the intake system and then compressed through the turbo, intercooler and then forced into the inlet manifold therefore creating a compressed mixture of air and Hydrogen gas, which Is highly combustible with even the smallest of ignition sources.(IE the Hindenberg...:o)

My concern is that at any given time, a highly flammable gas is under pressure in an easily rupturable (in the case of a vehicle accident) vessel, an aluminium intercooler, front mounted....One spark after a collision and :eek:

The science of adding hydrogen gas to the intake system is as far as I can tell sound, but I am worried about the safety issues with turboed engines. Naturally aspirated diesels don't have anywhere near the risks..................No compressed extremely flammable gasses.

JC

[WhiteD3]

Well ... not quite. It can be done with low power supplies, but you can not produce hydrogen at a rate that is anywhere near sufficient to power a car or to improve an existing fuel supply.

Touche':D.

What I was trying to say, none too clearly, was that you can't get something for nothing, ie free energy. To create hydrogen from water with current technology, you have to put in more energy (electricity) than the energy (hydrogen) you get out.

Nothing is free, you always lose something.

Now find me a kit that sits in the garage, which is full of algae or bacteria which breaks down the water to give hydrogen, which I can then compress overnight and pump into a tank in my car, which will run it for say 100k (daily commute)................and I'm sold!

[CraigE]

The subject has been broached before and from experience you will get a lot of negative feedback and possibly some quite nasty replies from people who do not believe hydrogen is a viable option. If this belief was held by all we would not have electricity, lpg, space travel, aeroplanes etc etc, most of these and many more have broken scientific boundaries. Probablly at this time it is not a cost effective option as a stand alone fuel, but there is some evidence of benefits of it being used as an assist fuel. Set up costs may also still be prohibitive.
There is a lot of work going on in this area and who knows in 10 or 20 years time someone may unravel some widely held scientific beliefs and make it work on large scale. One can only hope someone does crack it. There have been a few shows on foxtel lately relating to this subject and the research is very interesting.

[WhiteD3]

Craig,

Don't get me wrong; I'm a believer in the hydrogen economy (or at least transport), with LPG/LNG being the bridging fuel until we get the technology right.

What I'm against is people using the hype to rip others off!

[drivesafe]

Lot of misinformation here.

Hi WhiteD3, your half correct. While you actually can use low voltages to produce large quantities of hydrogen, the problem is not low the volt voltage but that a huge amount of current is required to make enough hydrogen to power a vehicle, many time the amount of energy that the hydrogen would be able to supply.

Hi Justic, I think you will find the hydrogen and air mixture is no more dangerous then the existing fuel air mixture found in any petrol powered vehicle and an other point, the Hindenburg was not bought down by it’s hydrogen flotation gas but by the rocket fuel they used to put a reflective coating on the outside surface of the Zeppelin.

In the future, hydrogen may very well be the fuel of fuels but at this present time, both the extraordinary weight of the storage vessel needed to carry the gas and huge amounts of power needed to produce hydrogen in quantities of much less power makes it a fuel of little use, at this time, for day to day transport.

If anyone is interested in finding out the real facts about hydrogen, do a google search for “dr Billings”, he is probably the worlds leading expert on the subject.

[WhiteD3]

Lot of misinformation here.

Hi WhiteD3, your half correct. While you actually can use low voltages to produce large quantities of hydrogen, the problem is not low the volt voltage but that a huge amount of current is required to make enough hydrogen to power a vehicle.
Tim, I didn't mention voltage, rather energy and in the case of electricity we're talking kWs of the stuff:eek:.


many time the amount of energy that the hydrogen would be able to supply.

My point exactly; nothings free.

And Dr Billings "Very clever guy, big in IT, had an interest in Hydrogen early on, not a Dr.

[stirlsilver]

I have had this debate a number of times about the equipment that you install on your car to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen. Obviously the amount of energy required to split the water is far greater than what you would get back from burning the hydrogen and oxigen again (you always have a loss) I think these systems dump the oxygen too which is even worse. Anyway that's my arguement on it (and I think it's where WhiteD3 is coming from too).

A common reply to this is that you are not depending on the hydrogen to give you more power from its combustion but the fact that a small amount of hydrogen being present in the combustion chamber results in a more efficient burn of the fuel. Apparently there is some truth to this but there was a reason (which I can't remember right now) for that not even to be viable (I think it's that you need a lot more hydrogen to get the effect than what is typcially introduced by these kits or something like that)

The arguement for what I have just said above is that if you use such a system on an engine with computer controlled fuel delivery, that the hydrogen changes the relative quantities of the different gases in your exhaust and fool exhaust sensors which results in a correction by the fuel delivery system (I think by running a little leaner but not sure).

[justinc]

Lot of misinformation here.

Hi WhiteD3, your half correct. While you actually can use low voltages to produce large quantities of hydrogen, the problem is not low the volt voltage but that a huge amount of current is required to make enough hydrogen to power a vehicle, many time the amount of energy that the hydrogen would be able to supply.

Hi Justic, I think you will find the hydrogen and air mixture is no more dangerous then the existing fuel air mixture found in any petrol powered vehicle and an other point, the Hindenburg was not bought down by it’s hydrogen flotation gas but by the rocket fuel they used to put a reflective coating on the outside surface of the Zeppelin.

In the future, hydrogen may very well be the fuel of fuels but at this present time, both the extraordinary weight of the storage vessel needed to carry the gas and huge amounts of power needed to produce hydrogen in quantities of much less power makes it a fuel of little use, at this time, for day to day transport.

If anyone is interested in finding out the real facts about hydrogen, do a google search for “dr Billings”, he is probably the worlds leading expert on the subject.

Hi Tim,

I meant compressing a mixture of hydrogen and air at about 1.5bar through an intercooler on a diesel. This worried me due to the expansion and 'atomisation' of the gas that would occur during a rupture of a pipe or the IC during a vehicle accident, adding to the damage:eek: Turbo petrol engines are only really compressing air through their IC, not usually a fuel/air mix.

JC

[maca]

The purpose of the kit is to produce hydrogen as a fuel additive.

As previously stated unless someone invents perpetual motion using hydrogen to power a motor from water that is split with the power of the motor, is IMPOSSIBLE.

However a small amount of hydrogen added to the air intake MAY improve the diesel combustion increasing the efficiently of the motor enough to overcome the losses involved in splinting the water. BUT i would remain very skeptical until several independent labs have done a bit of research.

[clean32]

I have had this debate a number of times about the equipment that you install on your car to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen. Obviously the amount of energy required to split the water is far greater than what you would get back from burning the hydrogen and oxigen again (you always have a loss) I think these systems dump the oxygen too which is even worse. Anyway that's my arguement on it (and I think it's where WhiteD3 is coming from too).

Very true, but they usually keep the oxygen. But just some things to think about, get your voltage, plate size (anode cathode) and spacing perfect, add a catalyst. And the numbers start to look not so bad, but not that good that you could run a car on it.
Combustion, well HH & O burns, sort of it actually implodes, it will produce heat, but not much, the up side is. With hydrogen present you can run a motor quite lean, but the real advantage is that you are adding another expandable material to the expansion chamber, IE water. as we all know ( or should) its not heat that pushes a piston down, its the expansion of gasses and some solids that moves the piston, usually Co2 a bit of nitrogen etc. in short heat makes every thing bigger, that’s what makes the wheels go round. back in the 80s we would tune motors to run quite rich, adding fuel to cool the chamber and to have extra material to expand, and the added bonus of reducing loosed energy ( heat) though the cooling system, so there’s 3 little ways of where hho generators can and do work to improve efficiency of a IC motor, but it is not a magic fix and its quite hard to get right



A common reply to this is that you are not depending on the hydrogen to give you more power from its combustion but the fact that a small amount of hydrogen being present in the combustion chamber results in a more efficient burn of the fuel. Apparently there is some truth to this but there was a reason (which I can't remember right now) for that not even to be viable (I think it's that you need a lot more hydrogen to get the effect than what is typcially introduced by these kits or something like that)

The arguement for what I have just said above is that if you use such a system on an engine with computer controlled fuel delivery, that the hydrogen changes the relative quantities of the different gases in your exhaust and fool exhaust sensors which results in a correction by the fuel delivery system (I think by running a little leaner but not sure).
theres only water or water vapur pasing the sensors, its not a problem, just close the system down when the reves are slow

[clean32]

Hi Tim,

I meant compressing a mixture of hydrogen and air at about 1.5bar through an intercooler on a diesel. This worried me due to the expansion and 'atomisation' of the gas that would occur during a rupture of a pipe or the IC during a vehicle accident, adding to the damage:eek: Turbo petrol engines are only really compressing air through their IC, not usually a fuel/air mix.

JC

if it was just HHO gas in the system yes, a nice little bang could follow, but you would have to be producing shuch large quanitys of HHO thats not going to happen.

what you would actualy have is some thing that looks like,

HHO OOOOOOOOOOOOO NNNNN CO2 CO2, and thats not going to go bang or even burn, way to lean

[HangOver]

I am also under the opinion that we will not see a system where by you will be filling your fuel with water ;)

But, I'll see if I can find the link, I do believe there is a system under tests prior to public release, that sits in your garage and uses solar panels to power the system. Apparently it dispenses the gas into diving bottle type tanks which are connected to your vehicle and exchanged when empty.

So there you go!

Now............... where's that damn link

[clean32]

Not all that uncommon in EURO, but I think you will fined that the kit consists of a Home HHO generator, that’s compressed, then pumped into a tank. Watch his electricity bill.

in aussie its better to just do a CNG conversation, using the Gas already piped in, just compress it at home, CNG was quite popular in NZ in the 90's don’t know about now though. I did the math’s on that a couple of months ago, it came out that my TDi 300, is running now at 13 cents a klm, down to 4 cents a klm, conversation kit tanks compressor etc as a kit was about $8000. so after 80 000Klm its brake even, to me that’s 2 years, what will diesel cost in 2 more years?




At a going away reception for the receptionist at site, l was talking to an engineer who drives a Discovery D2 TD5 and he was saying that he has imported a piece of kit from Italy to convert the D2 to run on Hydrogen gas and he would be making his own hydrogen gas a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas and he was also going to convert his home heating to Hydrogen gas. He was saying biggest problem was finding space within engine bay for the conversion equipment as he wanted to keep piping as shot as possible for the Hydrogen gas.

I will try and get some better details from him when l go back to site next week and post.

Anyone else heard of the conversion process and is it only suitable for Diesel powered vehicles

[clean32]

I am also under the opinion that we will not see a system where by you will be filling your fuel with water ;)

But, I'll see if I can find the link, I do believe there is a system under tests prior to public release, that sits in your garage and uses solar panels to power the system. Apparently it dispenses the gas into diving bottle type tanks which are connected to your vehicle and exchanged when empty.

So there you go!

Now............... where's that damn link

ouch thats big $$$$$ setup, no change from $20K and on a good day its worth about 30-40 klms a day, but it is free, now whats intrest repayments on a 20K personal load??

[tolinja]

I dont know if this will help but i found this
This is the new hydrogen thread - Australian 4WD Action Online Forums - the 4WD, 4x4 and offroad truck community. Get the latest tips, news, reviews, images and video clips. Chat with other 4WDers and share your offroad adventures. (http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/showthread.php't=56138)

cheers
chaser

[justinc]

if it was just HHO gas in the system yes, a nice little bang could follow, but you would have to be producing shuch large quanitys of HHO thats not going to happen.

what you would actualy have is some thing that looks like,

HHO OOOOOOOOOOOOO NNNNN CO2 CO2, and thats not going to go bang or even burn, way to lean

Excellent news Clean32.
Just the info I was after
As this was my only concern with the system, and have been offered one to trial on my RRC, I think i'll do it now!
I didn't want to make my vehicle into a bomb....:eek:(Well, not more than it already is anyway)
JC

[olbod]

Very interesting thread guys.
It will be interesting to see what developes in the next 20 or 30 years,
tho I wont be around to see it.
I also expect to be back to using a horse and sulky in my older age.

My offering for an alternative fuel engine, would have to be a 2 stroke
running on compressed soap bubbles !
Replace the spark plug with a PIN and there ya go.
Cheers.

[Blknight.aus]

Ive seen some "frequency adjusted" water splitters that make a fair bit of browns gas off of a 12v battery, obviously no where near enough to actually run an engine but I wonder if you couldnt get enough to achieve the same effect as the Diesel gas LPG fumigation kits......

[justinc]

Ive seen some "frequency adjusted" water splitters that make a fair bit of browns gas off of a 12v battery, obviously no where near enough to actually run an engine but I wonder if you couldnt get enough to achieve the same effect as the Diesel gas LPG fumigation kits......


Hi Dave,

I believe this is what this guy I know has on his 130. He is claiming under 10l/100 and that is towing . He does have a 4BD1 with a turbo and intercooler, LT85 and 33"s etc and says his fuel mileage is up by around 15% at least.
I'll maybe trial his system on my RR, he has mentioned that he wants more 'test' vehicles...
JC

[drivesafe]

As posted early, hydrogen may one day be a viable alternative to fossil fuels but at the present time, it is just not a cost effective fuel for a whole host of reasons.

Hydrogen is used in industry in things like Hydroxegen welders.

I saw a forerunner to this type of welder back in the 70s when a guy by the name of Brown ( can’t remember his first name ) made the front cover of Electronics Australia.

Mr Brown had his office and lab at Alburn and a mate and I were given a tour of his set up and one of the projects he was working on was his version of a Hydrogen - Oxygen electric welder. Very strange watching him weld copper rods to house brick, demonstrating what these welders could do without any special gear or chemicals.

30 years ago he was making statements that hydrogen cars would be the way of the future but now, as then, no one knows how far into the future we have to go before they become everyday commodities.

Having said that, there are now service stations in California that have Hydrogen on tap.

The use of hydrogen gas is being promoted to help reduce the amount of smog that plagues some of California’s cities. The problem is that in the USA something like 93% of all hydrogen produce, is done so using fossil fuels, which means California has just moved the pollution from one location to another.

One point, raised in Robin William’s move, “Man of the Year”, why are petroleum companies promoting hydrogen, when everything researched about it, to date, shows that it is highly unlikely to be a feasible alternative to fossil fuels for decades?

On a different line, someone else might be able to point in the right direction, but I remember seeing a news item, late last year where a term from either Sydney University or the University of NSW, were working on a new device that, once developed, looks like and sits on your roof like a solar panel but did a direct conversion of light to hydrogen gas. Anybody know more about it.

Contrary to what you may think of my posts on this subject, I would love to see hydrogen in common use to day and a good few years ago, I played around with the stuff and would love to be doing it again, but as I see it, there is no economically clean way, at this stage, to produce it for your own use.

[Jimmy]

Maybe I only just skimmed through this thread, but why is there so much opposition??!!!

Making hydrogen through simple electrolysis to provide an additive to the existing fuel system is simple. A supplmentary fuel supply dosent need mega power, the battery is sufficent.

It works, and is simple.

my 10c worth

Jim

[Michael2]

I saw a video on the www a couple of years ago, but haven't been able to find it since.

There was a small motor (lawn mower motor I think) that was powered by hydrogen gas. The motor drove an alternator which powered a small welder and it turned an aluminium drum. The drum was submerged in a tank of water and the welder electrode touched the aluminium drum and arced. The spinning drum stopped the electrode from sticking to the aluminium. The arc bound O2 to the aluminium, falling to the bottom of the tank as an aluminium oxide residue, and the liberated hydrogen bubbled to the top and powered the motor.

Was it real? I don't know.

[JDNSW]

I saw a video on the www a couple of years ago, but haven't been able to find it since.

There was a small motor (lawn mower motor I think) that was powered by hydrogen gas. The motor drove an alternator which powered a small welder and it turned an aluminium drum. The drum was submerged in a tank of water and the welder electrode touched the aluminium drum and arced. The spinning drum stopped the electrode from sticking to the aluminium. The arc bound O2 to the aluminium, falling to the bottom of the tank as an aluminium oxide residue, and the liberated hydrogen bubbled to the top and powered the motor.

Was it real? I don't know.

Was it real? Depends what you call real. But unless the inventor has found a way to repeal the law of conservation of mass-energy, then the engine was not running solely on the hydrogen produced.

Consider these facts:- Best energy efficiency of any internal combustion engine is about 40%, but no small engine such as described will do much better than 20%. Alternator energy efficiency is around 80%, and electrolysis efficiency around 80% at best.

So the overall energy loss in the closed cycle described is around 87%, which means that running the engine on the gas produced is simply impossible.

Use of hydrogen gas produced on board by electrolysis has the potential to improve combustion, and hence energy efficiency, showing up as increased fuel economy or power, along the same lines as gas injection. However, gas injection uses far more gas than can be produced from the total output of any standard alternator, so until I see properly documented, peer reviewed testing, I will remain sceptical.

This should not stop anyone who wants to try it, but don't expect any spectacular results, and beware of self-deception.

John

[mrapocalypse]

What about putting the solar panels on the roof that connects to the Hydrogen making machine that then that powers the refrigeration thingy that compresses the gas into tanks while you are at work, get home, change cylinders and away you go. Wind generator at night!

CSIRO had a hydrogen fuel cell that worked along these lines but instead of burning the Hydrogen you made it into kind of a battery.

I also heard that those Hydrogen cars have trouble storing enough gas to make it worthwhile and that the hydrogen molecules can escape most storage canisters etc...

There are a few cars that run on Hydrogen, and as an LPG user I firmly believe in gas powered cars... mine's great!!!! Who cares about the tank....

[Disco_owner]

I also see where WhiteD3 is coming from ;

using H2 to augment combustion in an ICE ( Internal Combustion Engine ) That technology is plausible ; and it works , people have installed them and are seeing the Benifits ;

Like Dave Blknight said earlier , it's like having an LPG infumigation system on a Diesel.

but a claim that ICE can run on purely on water alone, :eek:
as has already been said it requires an enourmous amount of
energy to seperate the Hydrogen and Oxyn Molecules to utilise the H2 in an ICE

[isuzurover]

As I have posted elsewhere, I believe the Minute quantity of Brown's gas (H2O vapour + H2 + O2) which is generated and fed into the intake by these systems, would only produce a slight benefit, akin to water injection (which would be much simpler to install).

e.g. - have a read here: http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2008-01-1190.pdf

[isuzurover]

I saw a video on the www a couple of years ago, but haven't been able to find it since.

There was a small motor (lawn mower motor I think) that was powered by hydrogen gas. The motor drove an alternator which powered a small welder and it turned an aluminium drum. The drum was submerged in a tank of water and the welder electrode touched the aluminium drum and arced. The spinning drum stopped the electrode from sticking to the aluminium. The arc bound O2 to the aluminium, falling to the bottom of the tank as an aluminium oxide residue, and the liberated hydrogen bubbled to the top and powered the motor.

Was it real? I don't know.

It is quite real.

There is a patent on this and apparently BMW did some experiments to look at feasibility (BMW since went on to develop cars with high-pressure hydrogen storage instead - so that should say something).

Hydrogen supply unit - US Patent 4702894 (http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4702894/description.html)


A unit substantially as shown in the drawings has been used to drive a 500 cc motor cycle engine. The wire 22 had a diameter of 1,6 mm and was of commercial purity (98% Al). The unit produced over 1000 cc of hydrogen a minute, with an aluminium
wire consumption rate of 140 to 180 cm per minute. The rate of deposition of aluminium oxide was about 4 kilograms per 500 kilometers travelled.

Conventional modifications were made to the carburettor to enable the engine to run on a mixture of hydrogen and air.

The wire 22 carries a voltage of about 18000 volts with a current of about 1 amp.

The invention may equally be used to power stationary industrial engines, as well as motor vehicle engines.

Taking those claims at face value, the system requires 18kW of electrical energy, to power a 500cc (petrol) engine.

An average 500cc motorbike engine back then could be expected to produce a maximum of about 36kW of power. However, running on hydrogen produces about a 20% loss of power (based on real-world data). For simplicity, lets say 8kW are lost.

So it takes 18kW of energy to run an engine that produces 28kW. So assuming your alternator and drivetrain are 100% efficient, you now have a maximum of 10kW at the wheels, instead of 36.

Now with a rate of aluminium MIG wire consumption of 180 cm/min (or 108m/hr). What's the best price you can get a 7kg roll of 1mm mig wire for? $150ish? So that means just under $5/hr to run at current prices.

If the same engine averages 3l/100km, it would also cost about $5/hr to run, but you would have 3.5* the power at the wheels.

[Dougal]

The interesting thing is.
Brown was a fraud, his devices couldn't do what was claimed. Same with Stanley Meyer and his "water fuel cell".

Ever heard of Dennis Lee? Proponent of free-energy devices who is helping to lighten the wallets of people all around the world. He sells a lot of these systems along with PICC, HAFC and a lot of other ancronyms designed to sound impressive.

Why can't people learn from history?

[lardy]

At a going away reception for the receptionist at site, l was talking to an engineer who drives a Discovery D2 TD5 and he was saying that he has imported a piece of kit from Italy to convert the D2 to run on Hydrogen gas and he would be making his own hydrogen gas a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas and he was also going to convert his home heating to Hydrogen gas. He was saying biggest problem was finding space within engine bay for the conversion equipment as he wanted to keep piping as shot as possible for the Hydrogen gas.

I will try and get some better details from him when l go back to site next week and post.

Anyone else heard of the conversion process and is it only suitable for Diesel powered vehicles
............i have seen these stories (almost urban myths by now) you would be hard pressed to produce the energy if i am wrong i have a hat ready to eat ....it's a bit like the anti bio posse claiming that bio eats your head and turns your car into a submarine or some such bull...the net has some useful informed stuff but a lot of bull too regards

[isuzurover]

Well said Dougal - very true.

I think there are 2 things here:
People love the idea of getting something for nothing
People like the idea that some backyard inventer has made some groundbreaking discovery...

I am just amazed about how much interest and publicity these frauds get - when their devices clearly break the law of conservation of energy...

Btw - in case anyone is interested, I cut and posted my "back of the envelope" analysis from the other thread - since it was locked.




OK how about a "back of the envelope" analysis of these hydrogen electolysis systems (talking about the add-on systems to a petrol or diesel here).

You have an engine running on petrol or diesel, let's say it produces 100kW or power.

The engine is fitted with a 100A Alternator. 100A x 13.5V = 1.35kW (power produced) - it would probably take at least 1.5-2kW of engine power to turn the alternator.

So let's say all of the 1.35kW is available for electrolysis.

Water electrolysis has a theoretical maximum of about 80-90% efficiency (efficiency at converting the electrical energy to H2 + O2) - note that that is theoretical, most systems are much worse.

However let's say we have 80% efficiency. So we get 0.8*1.35 = 1.08kW.

Now a typical engine is at best about 30% efficient at turning fuel into power. So we would really have about 0.3kW of power generated by the fuel.

So - bottom line, is that even if the power of the alternator is "free", and the alternator was ONLY running the electrolysis. We could expect <1% difference in fuel consumption. (also assuming the fuel metering was adjusted to compensate).

The supporters of these systems claim that the presence of hydrogen changes the combustion process to make it more efficient. However I cannopt find any scientific research which supports this. There are papers which show significant changes in combustion processes by adding H2, however only once you get to 15-20% H2 in the fuel.

And for anyone drawing parallels between these systems and the "diesel gas" type systems, they use a ratio of around 25L of LPG to every 100L of diesel.

[Dougal]

W
People like the idea that some backyard inventer has made some groundbreaking discovery...

Don't forget that these backyard inventors can "think outside the box" and "aren't constrained by the scientific thought process".

That is, after all, how birds fly. They don't know or care about gravity, so it doesn't affect them.

:angel:

[isuzurover]

Don't forget that these backyard inventors can "think outside the box" and "aren't constrained by the scientific thought process".

That is, after all, how birds fly. They don't know or care about gravity, so it doesn't affect them.

:angel:

I am not knocking backyard inventors, many of them have come up with some great inventions!

[Dougal]

I am not knocking backyard inventors, many of them have come up with some great inventions!

I'm not knocking general backyard inventors. Just those hell-bent on perpetual motion.:)

[isuzurover]

I'm not knocking general backyard inventors. Just those hell-bent on perpetual motion.:)

Indeed. The laws of physics/thermodynamics remain the same inside AND outside the box ;)

[LavisLane]

I'd like to find a way of running my car on $100 notes.

This would save me valuable time at the petrol station.

Perhaps even just have my engine electronically linked to my bank account so it just runs on available funds!!

[PAT303]

I personally think that from now on we will have a mix of fuels to power the world as nothing is as good as what we have now,that is why we use it.I also think that people will loose money trying to save it as seen by the amount of people who have sold a car that uses 12ltrs per hundred and bought one that uses only 6ltrs and then brag about how much their saving.The fact they took out a loan and are paying far more in payments than they ever did in fuel doesn't come into it. Pat

[crash]

Forget hydrogen, go for methane, I am still trying to work out an effective way of bottling it as my wife figures I produce enough of it to run a small fleet of vehicles.

[mcrover]

Forget hydrogen, go for methane, I am still trying to work out an effective way of bottling it as my wife figures I produce enough of it to run a small fleet of vehicles.

Yeah, Cranny can be a world leader :p

I still havnt seen any actual proof that this works.

I still think that with a modified mixture and enough HHO then you may get a good result but it is the "is it worth it" question that gets me every time.

There are so many of them about, Ive been hearing about them for the past 15years of working as a mechanic and I have read stories about them from back in the 60's.

They didnt work then but people are still building exactly the same thing and claiming that now they have it right.

There are at least more realists in this thread than the last.

Hey JC, most of us already have a bomb hanging off the front of our car.

Ladas and I spoke about it once apon a time and I had never thought about it.

The Aircon condenser has not only a compressed flamable gas but is also mixed with oil which is also flamable particularly under pressure.

[Tank]

Shouldn't this Thread be in the Alternative Energy section, Regards Frank.

[Derek Carlisle]

There are a few sites on the net selling hydrogen kits or how to do it instructions, they tend to read like scams. A bloke in Victoria was written up in the RACV mag. I rang him, his kit was available for about $400 something. I didn't go any further. Kits are supposed to do petrol or disel. The gases hydrogen & oxygen are induced in to the air intake, it is supposed to help get a better bang out of your fuel and supposedly you get fantastic klms out of a litre of fuel. Interesting. The process has been around for a long time and the gas produced is also known as Browns Gas after an early experimenter. I think Browns gas does get used in some sort of Welding process or other. Good Luck I would like to hear more, please keep us up to date.Derek

[isuzurover]

Shouldn't this Thread be in the Alternative Energy section, Regards Frank.

This thread existed long before the AE section.

IMHO it would be best to restrict the AE section to real stuff that actually works.



Forget hydrogen, go for methane, I am still trying to work out an effective way of bottling it as my wife figures I produce enough of it to run a small fleet of vehicles.

Methane (Biogas) is an underrated energy source... Apparently about 10% of NT's CO2e emissions come from camels!!! :eek::eek::eek:

[clean32]

err.................................rubbish
Just pulled out my ASTRAL manual
12V at 1 amp = upto 50 grams per hour, Diesel out of the pump has 2-5 grams per liter added. Hardly a power station.

check it out for your self


err.................................rubbish.

Two things:

First, the energy required to separate hydrogen from water is huge, you're talking power stations, not alternators!

Second, if it was so simple, we'd all be doing it.

A good article can be found here.

Water Powered Cars Will Never Work | EcoGeek | Water, Energy, Car, Hydrogen, These (http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1769/)

[clean32]

123

[clean32]

123

[mcrover]

err.................................rubbish
Just pulled out my ASTRAL manual
12V at 1 amp = upto 50 grams per hour, Diesel out of the pump has 2-5 grams per liter added. Hardly a power station.

check it out for your self

In the other hydrogen thread you were talking about adding Hydrogen to Diesel.

Now Im a bit confused and Im not having a go but is it possible as I was under the impression that hydrogen is a gas and diesel is a liquid and unless it is extremely cold or under pressure hydrogen will stay a gas?

Im actually asking if this is possible as I dont actually know, Im not having a go in any way at all.

[lardy]

Correct if we have exceeded our oil stocks potential as described, and i do not doubt this ( as man's greed is amazing ) then if we now sell our gas guzzlers in an attempt to stem the flow it's all a bit late in the day.
I use b100 but am aware that when oil goes then its game over and every backyard will have a different kind of horsepower ...keeping the grass low.
we are such consumers in this day and age and totally obsessed by money, i think we may well get served our just desserts in the next 30 odd years.
And Pat is it not scary that:
''I personally think that from now on we will have a mix of fuels to power the world as nothing is as good as what we have now,that is why we use it''.
How good is it going to be when our vehicles have the front cut out to the bulk head to accommodate a horses **** lol,

[awabbit6]

123

;)

Paul

[Dougal]

I personally think that from now on we will have a mix of fuels to power the world as nothing is as good as what we have now,that is why we use it.I also think that people will loose money trying to save it as seen by the amount of people who have sold a car that uses 12ltrs per hundred and bought one that uses only 6ltrs and then brag about how much their saving.The fact they took out a loan and are paying far more in payments than they ever did in fuel doesn't come into it. Pat

When have rational economics ever been part of a vehicle buying process?
Really none of us would own landrovers if minimal transportation cost was everyones top priority.

[isuzurover]

In the other hydrogen thread you were talking about adding Hydrogen to Diesel.

Now Im a bit confused and Im not having a go but is it possible as I was under the impression that hydrogen is a gas and diesel is a liquid and unless it is extremely cold or under pressure hydrogen will stay a gas?

Im actually asking if this is possible as I dont actually know, Im not having a go in any way at all.

I too would like clean32 to post more on this.

There is a process called hydrotreating or hydrodesulphurisation, however this just uses H2 to remove sulphur, creating H2S (rotten egg gas) in the process.

Hydrodesulfurization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrodesulfurization)

[Greenman]

Hi all,
Looks like I might be in a dead link, this one hasn't been written t for a while, but thought that I would put my 2 cents worth in...

I have a friend with an 80 Series Tojo (and on his 3rd motor, 2nd gearbox etc), and he has just put one of these systems in his car, from the 'hydrogen garage', a firm in the US. His is a petrol motor, and he is claiming that he is getting 20-50km extra out of a tank, and the cost, $US650.00. Hmmm

I really was looking at this link to see what was around about this, I dunno, seems a little like snake oil - and I don't mean this negatively, just there seems to be a great deal of mixed feelings about this. There doesn't seem to be much 'real data' from genuine 'trusted sources' - there are lots of positive testamonials about, and conversely many negative comments about this conversion. Quietly, if I had just spend a lot of money on this system, I really would like to believe it is doing something - placebo effect, maybe??

I don't know - I think I will just sit back and watch him destroy another motor (not through the hydrogen system, just through his own trucks natural appetite for such things), and smile and wave as I go past in my good ol' S2 diesel Disco.

[clean32]

I too would like clean32 to post more on this.

There is a process called hydrotreating or hydrodesulphurisation, however this just uses H2 to remove sulphur, creating H2S (rotten egg gas) in the process.

Hydrodesulfurization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrodesulfurization)

thats the one, but read down to "Saturation of olefins" as thats what i am talking about.

[wovenrovings]

I know a bloke that has one of these hydrogen systems on his aurion. Going to see if I can convince him to put is on a dyno. Then with the unit turned on and off we'll see the difference..... if there is any.

[DaveF]

Howdy,

I spent a few lunchtimes reading throught the attached thread on another site. Interestingly similar things were being said against the idea. Enjoy the read......www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/showthread.php't=60566

Cheers

DaveF

[isuzurover]

thats the one, but read down to "Saturation of olefins" as thats what i am talking about.

That is bonding H2 molecules to Olefins to form Parafins - which increases the energy density and Cetane number of diesel. I can't see that the same could happen when you add gaseous H2.


EDIT - this is interesting. http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/wip/0804wip21.html
This suggests there may be some benefit for petrol engines, but this is comething completely different to the HHO from water systems.

Note that they claim a 20-30% fuel saving - but most of this is due to nox reduction, knock suppression and cooling allowing them to run leaner mixtures. However it does show some benefit provided through the addition of small quantities of H2.

[clean32]

That is bonding H2 molecules to Olefins to form Parafins - which increases the energy density and Cetane number of diesel. I can't see that the same could happen when you add gaseous H2.
.

H Gas + heat + pressure

But i haven sorted out a sencable way to produce a resonable amout of gas under the bonnet yet. The Jam jar and SS wire will not do it.

looks like you will need in a disco tdi about 1200 grams of H per hour, thats about 12V X 320amp total. the problem is H2O to plate area, my maths says you need about 2 meters2, or the othere way would be smaller plates and flow the H20 past the plates, but even at 150 lters per minte you would need about 500 wats just to do that

[isuzurover]

H Gas + heat + pressure

But i haven sorted out a sencable way to produce a resonable amout of gas under the bonnet yet. The Jam jar and SS wire will not do it.

looks like you will need in a disco tdi about 1200 grams of H per hour, thats about 12V X 320amp total. the problem is H2O to plate area, my maths says you need about 2 meters2, or the othere way would be smaller plates and flow the H20 past the plates, but even at 150 lters per minte you would need about 500 wats just to do that


What I was trying to point out is that the number of atoms of each is not the only issue. e.g. Acetylene C2H2 has the highest energy content on a weight basis, bacause it is a very dense molecule.

Burning olefins with H2 gas is not the same as burning parrafins.

[JDNSW]

What I was trying to point out is that the number of atoms of each is not the only issue. e.g. Acetylene C2H2 has the highest energy content on a weight basis, bacause it is a very dense molecule.

Burning olefins with H2 gas is not the same as burning parrafins.

Not that simple either - the available energy per molecule is the difference between the bond energy of the molecule you start with and the molecule(s) you finish with. Even assuming you finish with CO2 and water, the atoms present in the fuel are not a good measure of this - the reason acetylene has a high energy content is only partly because it is dense (as a first approximation the density of a gas is proportional to the molecular weight and as hydrocarbon gases go acetylene is the almost same density as ethane or ethylene - the reason acetylene has more energy available is that it has a triple unsaturated bond between the two carbons, where ethane (a paraffin) has all saturated bonds and ethylene a double unsaturated bond.

John

[cookiesa]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1265.jpg (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx)

Honda's PRODUCTION hydrogen car.. Rumoured to be coming to Australia in 2009.

So where do you get the hydrogen from???

The Home Energy Station
Honda has operated an experimental Home Energy Station in Torrance, California, since 2003. The Home Energy Station, which generates hydrogen from natural gas, is designed to provide heat and electricity for the home through fuel cell cogeneration and to supply fuel for a hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicle.

[mcrover]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1265.jpg (http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx)

Honda's PRODUCTION hydrogen car.. Rumoured to be coming to Australia in 2009.

So where do you get the hydrogen from???

The Home Energy Station
Honda has operated an experimental Home Energy Station in Torrance, California, since 2003. The Home Energy Station, which generates hydrogen from natural gas, is designed to provide heat and electricity for the home through fuel cell cogeneration and to supply fuel for a hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicle.

So it's not fueled by a tin can full of water under the bonnet then ?:o

I will be interested to see what range and how successful the Honda will be as it is as far as I can see the only real way to make the most out of Hydrogen powered vehicals but it will still be very costly to purchase and to run.:D

CNG would be much more cost effective rather than converting the NG to hydrogen which will require power to do which is robbing from peter to pay paul so to speak

But thats not all of what it's about, the enviromental impact is the real reason you would do this and that would most likely be less than a Prius due to having to dispose of the batteries in a prius as well as it being heavy with electronics which are also not very enviro freindly.;)

There is also changing the attitude of people to how they should be using their cars.

Im still of the thought that if you work inner city then the gov should be spending money on getting you comfortable to use public transport, this would save a hell of a lot more enviro blah blah blah than any of these hydro/hybrid rubbish which is just offsetting one for another in most cases.

I should be riding my pushbike to work (7 Kms) and we should only need 1 car.

We could run trains on hydrogen meaning that they would probably use a similar amounts of electricity but with a hell of a lot less infrastructure due to not needing to run cabling for the trains etc and heavy equipment is ideal for this sort of thing and using a hydro fuel cell to run electric motors would I think make this much more viable and practical rather than expensive, not very viable selfish and impractical to run single vehicals on the stuff.

[clean32]

What I was trying to point out is that the number of atoms of each is not the only issue. e.g. Acetylene C2H2 has the highest energy content on a weight basis, bacause it is a very dense molecule.

H is not a molecule

Burning olefins with H2 gas is not the same as burning parrafins.

we doint burn olefins with H we convert Olefins to parrafins, then burn them in the normal manor

[Draco Australis]

At a going away reception for the receptionist at site, l was talking to an engineer who drives a Discovery D2 TD5 and he was saying that he has imported a piece of kit from Italy to convert the D2 to run on Hydrogen gas and he would be making his own hydrogen gas a litre of distilled water makes 18,000 litres of gas and he was also going to convert his home heating to Hydrogen gas. He was saying biggest problem was finding space within engine bay for the conversion equipment as he wanted to keep piping as shot as possible for the Hydrogen gas.

I will try and get some better details from him when l go back to site next week and post.

Anyone else heard of the conversion process and is it only suitable for Diesel powered vehiclesI thought I'd add my 2 bob into this. I studied chemistry when I was younger and the idea of running a vehicle on browns gas always intrigued me as it would be a perfect combustion senorio ie H2 + H2 + O2 + ignition source = 2 H2O. Plenty of people (nutty optimists) reckoned you could run a car on browns gas generated from water, in the car, so I thought I'd actually do the math.

I used a small car at the time, that being a 1L smart fortwo as the basis for my calcs. If I remember correctly, I took the average fuel economy per hour, took that down to an average fuel use per revolution of the engine, then looked at the molar energy comparison of an Octane combustion and a Hydrogen combustion. From this I could calculate how much Hydrogen and oxygen I would need to create the same power per revolution, then how much hydrogen and oxygen needed per hour.

I was hopeful in the beginning, but the smallest HHO generator that was on the market at the time that could supply enough browns gas to run the Smart car, ie running it on water, ran on 20A 415V 3 phase electricity and was roughly double the size of the smart car. So, it ain't really possible when you do the mathdibatics, although I haven't been looking into this stuff for years.

As for using HHO for a diesel additive, I think your better off doing water injection.

Just my 2 bob. Plenty of weird and wacky things have turned out to be possible in the past so I say, nothing is impossible, it just needs more tinkering time.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

[speleomike]

Hi all

Quite a few users have rightly pointed out where the H2 will come from or the electricity come from to create the H2. Will it really be better environmentally? Especially for a car in the city.

In the case of New Holland's Hydrogen tractor - yes. This was developed quite a few years ago and it a nearly perfect use case for a H2 powered vehicle. Farms have lots of area for solar panels which generate electricity to get the H2 from water. The energy density is not as much as diesel or petrol but that isn't so much as a problem as the tractor does not travel off the farm. Long range is not required. What it achieves is that the farmer does not have large ongoing diesel costs, its clean, quiet, and reduces the environmental foot print of the farm.
I have no idea how much the infrastructure to produce the H2 costs - I suspect it's subsidised as a demo project.

I'd certainly like a H2 tractor myself. I have a small 60 HP Kioti tractor that runs on diesel.

Mike

[p38arover]

I thought I'd add my 2 bob into this. I studied chemistry when I was younger and the idea of running a vehicle on browns gas always intrigued me as it would be a perfect combustion senorio ie H2 + H2 + O2 + ignition source = 2 H2O. Plenty of people (nutty optimists) reckoned you could run a car on browns gas generated from water, in the car, so I thought I'd actually do the math.

Have a look on YouTube for John Cadogen's commentary on it. Look for Best DIY Brown gas hydrogen fuel system ever!

i can't link it owing to language in John's videos.