Just got home, on the back of a truck :(

[ScottW]

I have now had my Rangie for 3 weeks, and I just got it towed home for the second time. First time wasn't too bad. I was near home, and got a tow from my father. Turned out I was only out of petrol :redface: which was easily fixed.

This time, I was at Yatala, around 50 kays from home, pulling into a servo for some petrol and the tyres just locked up. Lucky I was only moving at around 5 km/h at the time. Car wouldn't move forward, or backward.

I jacked up each of the wheels, and they would move a little, and the rear tailshaft moved back and forth a little, so it wasn't the brakes. I called a flat bed to take it home and as he dragged it onto the tray, the front wheels didn't move... The rears moved fine. So it seems my front diff isn't going to well :p

The car was dropped off at the top of my driveway, which is over 50m from the garage since there was no way the truck would make it down the driveway.

Now my rangie is a 1998 P38, 4.0L, which I don't know that much about, but the earlier rangies have removable axles, long ones in the rear, and short ones on the front. I'll have to check, but mine should be the same. So hopefully I can simply unbolt the hubs, remove the front axles and drive the car to into the garage.

Also, there is a 83 rangie sitting in our yard ready to be stripped for parts. Does anyone know how different the diffs will be? I'm guessing I can't just swap over the hubs and brakes and use the older diff. I have no idea what the ratio would be, but I can always count the teeth. Anyway, it's been a long day and I think I need a nap. :D

[mike 90 RR]

Doesn't sound like a good start for the day

I don't think you'l be able to swap diffs as the spline (axle) will be different for a start

I would, however, start doing a check and change all fluids in all the drivelines (Diffs, TC, Auto, Wheel bearings)

Enjoy the nap
Mike

[George130]

Hope it isn't to hard to fix.

[RaZz0R]

ya - hope its an easy one.

could it be wind-up?

[101RRS]

I thought P38 diffs are completely different from RRC diffs.

Garry

[Psimpson7]

Yep they are completley different. No parts will be able to be swapped.

Good luck.
Pete

[Disco300Tdi]

Doesn't sound like a good start for the day

I would, however, start doing a check and change all fluids in all the drivelines (Diffs, TC, Auto, Wheel bearings)

Enjoy the nap
Mike

:eek::eek: A little more than a squirt short of a full diff I feel

[ScottW]

I think wind-up is eliminated, since both fronts were locked and the rear turned OK while it was getting pulled onto the truck (in neutral at the time) I'll drop the front tailshaft and pull the axles to get it into the garage to check it out. Is the centre diff lock in a 98 that viscous thing I have been hearing about? Does it auto-engage? If not it could be fun and games again... Lucky I haven't sold my old car yet.

[harry]

i sympathise with you, it's really annoying to not have your new [to you] car behaving.
firstly in support of the car, running out of fuel probably wasn't its fault.
now the drive train seems to be a big problem.
when you get it to the garage it will be interesting to know more.
as it is full time 4wd, i don't quite know what's going on with it going on the flat top with the rears turning and the front not.
sounds like it's broken something.? duh!
i notice you havn't put up your location in the member details, it might help us to help you if we know roughly where you are, as one of us may be nearby and be able to help you.
keep us posted scott.

[p38arover]

I thought P38 diffs are completely different from RRC diffs.

Garry

Yes, they are.

[p38arover]

Now my rangie is a 1998 P38, 4.0L, which I don't know that much about, but the earlier rangies have removable axles, long ones in the rear, and short ones on the front. I'll have to check, but mine should be the same. So hopefully I can simply unbolt the hubs, remove the front axles and drive the car to into the garage.

Regrettably, the P38A doesn't have fully floating axles lke the classic so you'll not be able to do that.


Also, there is a 83 rangie sitting in our yard ready to be stripped for parts. Does anyone know how different the diffs will be? I'm guessing I can't just swap over the hubs and brakes and use the older diff. I have no idea what the ratio would be, but I can always count the teeth.

Very different. The only similarity is that the diff ratio is the same at 3.54:1. Nothing else is the same - even the number of splines differ. An '83 model is a 10-spline diff.

I wonder if you have a seized VC. Hmm, maybe not if the fronts don't move at all. What happens if you jack both wheels off the ground at the same time? With one wheel on the ground it is quite difficult to rotate a the other wheel against the VC. If the diff is rotating OK, then with both wheels off the ground the wheels should rotate OK.

[p38arover]

See if you can put the transfer case into neutral. See the owner's manual on how to do this. You put a fuse into F11 in the BECM fusebox under the RH front seat.



Towing the vehicle on four-wheels
If it is necessary to recover the vehicle by
towing on all four wheels, select transfer
neutral as follows:
• With the starter key removed, insert a fuse
(5 amps or greater) in fuse position 11 in
the right hand seat fuse box. Insert key
and turn the starter switch on; the transfer
box will automatically select neutral (wait
until the message centre displays
’TRANSFER NEUTRAL’), then turn the
starter switch off.
• Turn the starter switch to position ’I’ to
unlock the steering and leave in this
position while the vehicle is being towed.
• To re-engage HIGH or LOW range after
towing, turn the starter switch off, remove
the fuse from position 11, then turn the
starter switch on and press the range
change switch (manual gearbox) - the
transfer box will engage the HIGH or LOW
gear range.

[ScottW]

Unfortunately I only had the little red factory jack in the car, so I only did one wheel at a time. There is a proper jack in the garage though. The fun will begin when I get it off the footpath.

I should have checked all the fluids when I got it, but I've been busy fixing my old car so I can sell it. At least it's fixed so I can drive it in the meantime.

I'm only familiar with RRC's (carb models actually) so there are a few new things to learn. I think I'll be taking the laptop with the rave CD up to the garage. Might need some gladwrap over the keyboard though :)

Shame the diffs are completely different, but I guess it's a bit much to ask in hoping they were similar.

[ScottW]

See if you can put the transfer case into neutral. See the owner's manual on how to do this. You put a fuse into F11 in the BECM fusebox under the RH front seat.
Man these cars are complex :D

[harry]

scott, thanks for the location, you are just out the back of me.
i don't know much about p38's, but i am nearby.
sending pm.

[mike 90 RR]

scott, thanks for the location, you are just out the back of me.
i don't know much about p38's, but i am nearby.
sending pm.

While you are at it ... explain to him about the "fix" for the ABS system that Blacknight has developed for his model

[p38arover]

While you are at it ... explain to him about the "fix" for the ABS system that Blacknight has developed for his model

Tell me, too.

Or do you mean the EAS?

[mike 90 RR]

Tell me, too.

Or do you mean the EAS?

You got me head scratching on "which is which" right now
but i mean't this Post

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/range-rover/53794-all-p38-owners-up-mid-1999-please-read.html

Actually .. I just re'read the post and it's by HSE30


:)

[p38arover]

Ahh. I have one of Russell's brake kits for mine.

[fraser130]

I know I have a Defender, but my old one did exactly the same thing, but at 110Km/h on the Hume, turned out the front diff level was low and it threw a pinion bearing in a spectacular way (VERY loud bang with one hell of a shudder , then once the car got to about 5 k's it locked up. the front wheels screeched up on to the flatbed truck.
I just replaced the whole diff centre with one from a wreckers.

Once you have it on stands, drop the front prop shaft, turn the wheels, if the wheels turn in opposite directions, and you can't turn them the same direction at the same time, the problem is the diff.
if you can turn them the same direction at the same time, the problem is nearer the engine, ie. transfer case.


Fraser

[ScottW]

Well, today was fun. First the laptop wouldn't open the Rave cd, so I used another computer and got the gist of what I was supposed to be doing. Started out by removing hte front driveshaft. Then jacked up the front, removed the wheel, brake caliper and then undid 4 bolts and the whole axle, hub, disc etc pulled straight out.

We dragged the laptop up to the car to see what happens next. It showed the axle separating from the hub if I could undo the big nut at the centre of the hub. Then I would be able to bolt the hub back on and drive down to the shed. After breaking the breaker bar on the large nut it was decided plan 'B' was the go.

Plan 'B' was to undo all the bolts holding the diff centre in, then pull the axle, hub etc out from the other side and then slide the diff centre out the back of the diff housing. This was pretty easy, although there was a steering arm had to be removed. We simply unbolted the ball joint on one side and dropped it out of the way. Took the diff centre out, then re-installed the axle/hub assembly on both sides, bolted the brake calipers back into place, fitted the wheels and very carefully drive down the driveway, with the front driveshaft stub flopping around and a big gaping hole in the back of the diff.

At least now the car is in the garage, on a level surface, as all today's work was done on the road, with the car pointing downhill on a 10% slope.

I also now know that the car will drive with the front driveshaft missing. I was wondering how the centre diff lock all worked since there is no manual activation.

The diff centre is not moving at all, but all the teeth are fine on the crown and pinion. The planetary gears are still moving though, which is a start. Since only 40mL of oil came out when the diff was drained, then that may be the problem. The diff centre has been out before, and had been re-installed with silicone instead of a gasket to seal it all up. It wasn't doing a very good job though, and was leaking a fair bit. I'll have a good look at the centre tomorrow, and will probably drop it in at Aussie diffs in Currumbin for a quote to fix it.

At least it's not major damage, and I learnt a fair bit about the car.

[harry]

ar', i don't think mr land rover has used gaskets on diffs for a long time, they are silicone of some sort.
the oil qty may be the big answer, also check the swivels and wheel bearings, as it is common for the seals to leak between each other and pass the contaminated lubricant into the next part to fail.
you didn't mention the quality of the diff oil you took out, it should be nice and clean with no metallic sheen and clear or almost clear.
let us know how you go with currimbin diffs, been meaning to find out if they know rover diffs.

[ScottW]

you didn't mention the quality of the diff oil you took out

The little oil that was in there wasn't too bad. No metal traces. Just a lack of volume. The oil dripping off the diff housing was like new. Very clean. :D

[ScottW]

Seems I'm not the first person to have this problem.

Range Rover P38/4.0/4.6 Common Problems and Fixes (http://www.rangerovers.net/newrremedies.htm#difflock)

[Scouse]

also check the swivels and wheel bearings, as it is common for the seals to leak between each other and pass the contaminated lubricant into the next part to fail.At least that's one problem the P38a doesn't have ;).
They're the same set up as the D2 - ball joints & sealed hubs.

Scott, you might find a decent 2nd hand diff centre might be the cheapest option. See how you go with the repair quote first though.

[p38arover]

Check the ends of the axle tube for leaks, e.g. oil inside the front wheels and even dripping onto the tyre. There is a seal at the outer end where the axle comes out. Early cars had a problematical seal and this was the subject of a TSB. LR came out with a new seal that allows for some off-centre location of the swivel hub. If the axle isn't perfectly aligned with the old seal, the seal will leak and often quite badly.

Re the centre diff lock - that function is automatic in that the car has a viscous coupling.

Unfortunately, replacement isn't quite so easy.

[p38arover]

Seems I'm not the first person to have this problem.

Range Rover P38/4.0/4.6 Common Problems and Fixes (http://www.rangerovers.net/newrremedies.htm#difflock)

Don't look at the picture of a crown wheel above that item. :(

Ron B.

[ScottW]

The diff in the pic has definitely seen better days. The axle seals were in good nick. There was no oil leaks from the ends, only a heap around the pumpkin from the engine and diff. I think the engine leak was masking the diff leak :(

I'm dropping the centre off tomorrow morning to see what the damage is.

[p38arover]

The diff in the pic has definitely seen better days.

It was mine.

[ScottW]

It was mine.

That's what I thought ;) although there was the possibility of more than one Ron B. owning a P38 :)

I dropped my diff centre off this morning for a quote to fix it. I'll have to wait and see how that goes...

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I think wind-up is eliminated, since both fronts were locked and the rear turned OK while it was getting pulled onto the truck (in neutral at the time) I'll drop the front tailshaft and pull the axles to get it into the garage to check it out. Is the centre diff lock in a 98 that viscous thing I have been hearing about? Does it auto-engage? If not it could be fun and games again... Lucky I haven't sold my old car yet.

The viscous unit usually fails to a no drive situation and wont affect the diff. Viscous coupling doesnt engage or disengage, its active all the time providing a constant 50/50 torque split front and rear. The pretence to a failing viscous is usually heavy tyre scrub and a resistance to wanting to steer, but if viscous fails you go nowhere!

Drop the front drive shaft and then with both front wheels off the ground, try to turn them. Turning one should turn the other in the oppoite direction. If they wont budge or are rough, you have a diff centre problem in the front. Most likely pinion gears. These generally dont fail unless the diff has been running with low or really old oil and it has run too hot. Stopping the vehicle and allow it to cool down can basically fuse everything together.

Did you have the transfer lever in neutral while you were moving it??

[p38arover]

The viscous unit usually fails to a no drive situation and wont affect the diff. Viscous coupling doesnt engage or disengage, its active all the time providing a constant 50/50 torque split front and rear. The pretence to a failing viscous is usually heavy tyre scrub and a resistance to wanting to steer, but if viscous fails you go nowhere!

Pretence?

pretence

(US pretense)
• noun 1 an act or the action of pretending. 2 affected and ostentatious behaviour. 3 (pretence to) a claim, especially a false or ambitious one.

More info on viscous failure, see http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/part_26.html

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/part_26.html


A common problem with the Range Rover BW transfer case is a "seized viscous coupling". This can easily be identified by the effect it has on cornering, the tyres will "chirp" or "scrub", as the vehicle is effectively permanently in diff lock. As a confirming check, put transfer case in "neutral", handbrake on, jack up one front wheel and try to turn it, it should turn slowly with resistance, if locked solid the viscous coupling is seized, and will need changing before any damage to the diffs or CV joints occur.


Did you have the transfer lever in neutral while you were moving it??

There is no transfer lever on a P38A Rangie. Range change is done electrically.

[ScottW]

Sounds about right. The planetary gears are fine. Spin one wheel, the other spins opposite. The pinion doesn't budge a bit, hence the locked front wheels. I pulled the diff centre out and drove the car when I moved it. It was only 30m from the street to the shed. It was taken home on a tilt tray, so no need for neutral on the transfer there. Hopefully I hear back from the diff shop tomorrow.

[ScottW]

I just rung the diff shop and it's spun a bearing and wrecked the housing. It appears the gears are OK though. So I either need another housing to put my bits into with new bearings and seals, or I'll have to settle for a second hand centre from a 4x4 wreckers.

[ScottW]

Does anyone know if any disco's share the same centre as a 98 Rangie? It might increase my chances of finding a cheap replacement.

[p38arover]

No, they are different.

[ScottW]

Today I learnt something. It is possible for a 65kg weakling to lift a diff centre into place while lying in the confined area under a range rover. It was a bit of a struggle, and took a fair bit of manouvering, but in the end I got it, then once it was bolted firmly in place, I called it a day :) I need oil anyway, so there was no chance of finishing today. I'll have to put the wheel hubs, and front drive shaft on tomorrow. This time was way easier than the first time on the footpath.

[ScottW]

Well, everything is back and running. All fluids are checked and all nipples have been greased (sorry, couldn't help myself :) ) I'm glad everything's back to normal. I hope it stays that way too :D

[DRanged]

Well, everything is back and running. All fluids are checked and all nipples have been greased (sorry, couldn't help myself :) ) I'm glad everything's back to normal. I hope it stays that way too :D

Mate what a saga but as a RRC owner I could'nt help with parts. Just some advise though, I use genuine gaskets on everything with a little Loctite mastergasket to help. hence no leaks on our rangie. Silicone is for lazy slack mechanics, every LR I see with a leak has that blue silicone on it?????. Genuine gaskets cost stuff all, cheaper than a diff centre;)

Good luck Justin