defender 130 purchase??? used vs new

[stace70]

I have found the base vehicle I want...the defender 130-rigid axle, coils suspension etc etc....but do I go new or 2nd hand......if 2nd hand I get a feel from reading posts that the TD5 is the way to go.

Purpose of the 130 will be as a truck to shoot in/from (thus the tray which will also carry quadbike and gear), and tow campertrailer on hols and around Oz trip in 5ish yrs time, plus daily driver.

I am considering the new Puma so I have low kms when it is ready to tour OZ and should have ironed out all the inherent problems in 5 yrs (fuel breather, air con, gear box etc etc).
But do the new Puma owners out there really think they are worth it over the TD5??? Am not trying to start a war between TD5 and puma owners but when looking at spending 55K plus aftermarket goodies (5-15K) I want to make sure buying new is the right choice.

If i but used TD5 how many kms would you expect to get from the motor before engine may need rebuilding/replacing???

Will value all comments

Cheers Stace

[isuzurover]

From 2002 on they downgraded the strength of the rear axle significantly.

If it was my vehicle I would either by a 2002 or earlier model, or retrofit the salisbury rear axle.

With that in mind, if you plan to keep it for a long time, it maye be a better option to buy a late model 300Tdi (99/00 changeover to TD5), and if the engine ever needs a rebuild fit a 2.8HS (improved copy of the 300Tdi made by international in Brazil) or an ISUZU diesel.

[Psimpson7]

Guess its up to you whether you can justify the $55k+ for a new one.

There is a 2004 td5 one for sale on ebay here with 77k km for $31k

2004 Land Rover Defender 130 (4X4) White 5 Speed M - eBay, Passenger Vehicles, Cars, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 17-Aug-08 12:02:14 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2004-Land-Rover-Defender-130-4X4-White-5-Speed-M_W0QQitemZ170241052494QQihZ007QQcategoryZ35227QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

With regard to longevity of the TD5, I am not certain, but have read of them up to 300k km already. I suppose as long as you look after it and service it properly, I can see it lasting quite a long time.

I think the TD5 is a 'stronger' engine than the puma, at least in terms of potential output figures, which would translate into it being mechanically stronger to an extent.

The new one is going to be easier to drive with a nicer gearbox, earlier torque delivery, better dash, and better air con, but that is then counteracted by the extra complciation, at least with the dash and Hevac, which does concern me a bit if you were say to accidentally sink it in a river.

I also think the Puma engines ones are due to get stronger front shafts and Cv's shortly due to them being able to break them during engine braking!

A new one as you say would be nicely run in when you left for the tour and you would know its entire history.

One positive of a second hand one is that it is likely to have some of the extras already fitted which may save you even more.

Rgds
Pete

[abaddonxi]

Guess its up to you whether you can justify the $55k+ for a new one.

There is a 2004 td5 one for sale on ebay here with 77k km for $31k

2004 Land Rover Defender 130 (4X4) White 5 Speed M - eBay, Passenger Vehicles, Cars, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 17-Aug-08 12:02:14 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2004-Land-Rover-Defender-130-4X4-White-5-Speed-M_W0QQitemZ170241052494QQihZ007QQcategoryZ35227QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

With regard to longevity of the TD5, I am not certain, but have read of them up to 300k km already. I suppose as long as you look after it and service it properly, I can see it lasting quite a long time.

I think the TD5 is a 'stronger' engine than the puma, at least in terms of potential output figures, which would translate into it being mechanically stronger to an extent.

The new one is going to be easier to drive with a nicer gearbox, earlier torque delivery, better dash, and better air con, but that is then counteracted by the extra complciation, at least with the dash and Hevac, which does concern me a bit if you were say to accidentally sink it in a river.

I also think the Puma engines ones are due to get stronger front shafts and Cv's shortly due to them being able to break them during engine braking!

A new one as you say would be nicely run in when you left for the tour and you would know its entire history.

One positive of a second hand one is that it is likely to have some of the extras already fitted which may save you even more.

Rgds
Pete

These two statements seem contradictory to me.:D

Cheers
Simon

[Psimpson7]

lol.:)

no the puma has a lower low range gear ratio as far as I can recall

[PAT303]

I was in the same position 10 years ago.I bought a new one and have never looked back Pat

[Xavie]

Personally I'd go the td5. The performance can be upgraded so easily and cheaply. I don't think it is super important to know a vehicles history if your not planning on using it for a big trip for several years because if there are issues you will know about them much sooner AND you will be able to afford to fix them. The td5 is also much more fuel efficient and I think we can all agree that it is getting more important every week.

I'm sure there is more but just got a call + have to run.

Xav.

[Blknight.aus]

These two statements seem contradictory to me.:D

Cheers
Simon


nope the puma has slightly better compression than the TD5 and it has lower gears behind it. that means more engine retartdation with more advantage to the engine...

Stock the puma puts out more than the stock td5 but the td5 currently has more potential for "fiddling". I reckon that'll change but I dont know how much extra meat is in the engine to deal with it. After all it was designed by a company whose original boss was soo stingy that he specified the size of the crates that some of the parts came in so he could use them as car floors and sides.

[abaddonxi]

Ah, ta.

Cheers
Simon

[dullbird]

nope the puma has slightly better compression than the TD5 and it has lower gears behind it. that means more engine retartdation with more advantage to the engine...

Stock the puma puts out more than the stock td5
but the td5 currently has more potential for "fiddling". I reckon that'll change but I dont know how much extra meat is in the engine to deal with it. After all it was designed by a company whose original boss was soo stingy that he specified the size of the crates that some of the parts came in so he could use them as car floors and sides.

maybe! maybe not!.....you can chip (Flash) a puma just like you can chip a TD5,

although people are tesing the removal of the EGR which has brought one or two unforseen issues they are getting around it, like the good old british do!

I reckon you can fiddle just as much its just the resources to do that fiddling as usual haven't quite made it here yet:)

[spudboy]

I've got a Td5 130 and a Puma 110, so can offer a direct comparison. Both of mine are bog standard, apart from a straight through pipe (i.e.no muffler) on the TD5.

Both excellent engines I reckon. Longevity of the puma is of course unknown but being based on a "white-van" Transit engine would expect it to go a good distance. TD5 is better on fuel.

The Puma engined car is SO much quiter at 110 than the TD5, but that is due to the 6 speed gearbox and the heap of extra soundproofing they put in the newer model. Dash looks more civilised on the new model but I really miss the flow through ventilation from the front flaps on the TD5.

I'm hoping that the engine ECU tweaks currently available for the TD5 will eventually turn up for the Puma. As DullBird said - they will get here in a while.

There seem to be a few (BIG) problems here and there posted on the Aust & UK LR sites but to date I have been lucky and had a good run since taking delivery 9 months ago.

Good luck making your decision!

[Blknight.aus]

I forgot to mention...

Im tipping big red to 500K Km prior to a total engine rebuild/replace
Clutches will probabley be 150K Kmish or so along with engine mounts
Gearboxes every 250K Km
Uj's every 100K Km propshafts every 200K Km
No diffs unless I go a locker Ditto axles

I'll probabley let her go at about the second clutch. how do I know this...

Its about all I ever get out of a vehicle But most of my replacements are precautionaries.


While I have no doubt that they will be able to push the transit donk out past the td5's total output having seen the remnants of a grenaded transit donk I dont think it has the structural strength to deal with massive upgrades but then I didnt think I could keep the TD5 together with the chip its got in it now... (and Im still waiting for the budget for the new exhauast, turbo and the intercooler)

[dullbird]

I've got a Td5 130 and a Puma 110, so can offer a direct comparison. Both of mine are bog standard, apart from a straight through pipe (i.e.no muffler) on the TD5.

Both excellent engines I reckon. Longevity of the puma is of course unknown but being based on a "white-van" Transit engine would expect it to go a good distance.
TD5 is better on fuel.

The Puma engined car is SO much quiter at 110 than the TD5, but that is due to the 6 speed gearbox and the heap of extra soundproofing they put in the newer model. Dash looks more civilised on the new model but I really miss the flow through ventilation from the front flaps on the TD5.

I'm hoping that the engine ECU tweaks currently available for the TD5 will eventually turn up for the Puma. As DullBird said - they will get here in a while.

There seem to be a few (BIG) problems here and there posted on the Aust & UK LR sites but to date I have been lucky and had a good run since taking delivery 9 months ago.

Good luck making your decision!


what you getting out of them both?

i'm supprised with the new having the 6th gear

also i heard that in the uk people are now reporting good fuel economy from there pumas BUT that because they have a fair few thousand miles on them now, apparently you wont get good economy from the new's until the engine has been well run in, apparently everything is to tight

i asked ian and he said it was about 20,000k to 30,000k to losen them up.....(not sure where he got those figures though)

[spudboy]

TD5 I'm doing about 9.5L/100

Puma I'm doing 10.5L/100

Similar driving conditions, up and down the Adelaide Hills, with not much stop start traffic work at all. I don't get into 6th all that often in the 110 as it is mostly 80Km/h limits around here.

I have heard that the diesels get better consumption with age, so I am hoping it is true.

[stace70]

Isuzudriver...or others......what is the upgrade cost of the Salisbury diff....is it really worth it?

Blknight.Aus "I reckon that'll change but I dont know how much extra meat is in the engine to deal with it.".......if you have a look at the following website the UK are already doing it....upto 134kw and 450NM of torque....pretty impressive.....but not sure about fuel consumption with these chips in hphttp://www.jeengineering.co.uk/d_diesel_eng.htm ....did you have you 110 TD5 standard new or did you buy secondhand chipped???? fuel consumption differences??

Xavie.....I see you have recently sold your 110 which was reasonably well decked out...what were the costs of the accessories.....judging by your comment "cheap" they're not too exxy??

Keep the info coming guys.

Cheers

[Xavie]

TD5 I'm doing about 9.5L/100

Puma I'm doing 10.5L/100


I have heard that the diesels get better consumption with age, so I am hoping it is true.


hmmm.... I was generally getting good but loaded with a trailer OR stop start dirt roads I was getting up to 17.5 litres per 100.

Xav

[dullbird]

hmmm.... I was generally getting good but loaded with a trailer OR stop start dirt roads I was getting up to 17.5 litres per 100.

Xav

but you only owned your car for 5mins;)...hardly a run in eingine:p

[Greylandy]

Isuzudriver...or others......what is the upgrade cost of the Salisbury diff....is it really worth it?



No ... not worth it at all .. some people are stuck on Isuzu engines and Salisbury Diffs. Clearance is better on the rover diffs.

[one_iota]

No ... not worth it at all .. some people are stuck on Isuzu engines and Salisbury Diffs. Clearance is better on the rover diffs.

I'm with Henry.

If and when it breaks look at the options with regards to a stronger unit in a rover casing.

If you dont have larger wheels/tyres and you don't do heroic driving then let things take their course.

[isuzurover]

Isuzudriver...or others......what is the upgrade cost of the Salisbury diff....is it really worth it?

You could probably pick up a complete salisbury (disc-disc) and a propshaft for $1k or less.

Some people are happy with the itsy bitsy rover diff in the rear, and you could wait till it breaks. But as I said - if it was mine... There is absolutely no chance I would go anywhere near a remote area with a rover-rear-diffed-130.

[Greylandy]

.. I would also suggest swapping the CD player for a tape deck .. God forbid you end up in a remote area with a jumping CD!

[stace70]

so I assume it is the diff itself that is stronger in the Salisbury not the diff housing??

[isuzurover]

so I assume it is the diff itself that is stronger in the Salisbury not the diff housing??

Yes - precisely.

This is a salisbury diff, they have a 9.75" crownwheel and with larger axle shafts will cope with tyres up to 40+" and big HP engines (std axle shafts are fine for up to 35+"):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

This is a rover diff. 8.25" crownwheel, and inferior spiral bevel design - fine in a disco or rangie, but marginal in a 130 - even on standard tyres.
http://www.qtservices.co.uk/.%5Cppcms%5Cppimages%5Cqtservices%5CA1060Large.jpg

[Greylandy]

Stace,

Don't break your head over the rear axle. Although I agree that Salisbury axles are more durable as pointed out above, it is not significant or enough of an issue to warrant a diff swap or to influence your purchasing decision. There are thousands of post 2002 TD5 Defender 110 and 130's going around with rover diffs who have never had any issues. With all due respect to Isuzurover, to say that a rover diff on a 130 is marginal even on standard tyres is hogwash. If they were such a liability Land Rover would have replaced them years ago. I personally have done over 100,000km's on a rover diff including long trips, weekend trips and some very challenging and remote. It has never batted an eyelid running 33" muddies.

As Mahn mentioned in a previous post, if you are planning to run big tyres and diff lockers the issue of stronger diff centres and axles come into play because of the forces that go through the drive train. In this case most people would recommend you upgrade the axles and flanges on both a salisbury and rover diff with something like maxi drives. If you are planning to use the vehicle for touring and not bothering with 33" + tyres or lockers, the rover diff will do the job.

As for the vehicle recommendations, to steer you away from post 2002 Defenders just because of the rear diff is rediculous. It is a well known fact that pre-2002 Defender were plagued with issues like the oil pump bolt and oil in the ECU harness. Although these problems are easily fixed, they warant a mention far above a perceived inferior diff. As for 300tdi's or Isuzu's .. great vehicles in their own right but life goes on.

I would recommend a late model TD5 (post 2003) I have no expereince with the PUMA but despite some of the issues raised .. I would not hesitate to get one.