D1 v D2 (No CDL) in Deep sand

[ozscott]

Hi all. I have used my 02 Disco many times in deep sand at Straddie including towing a 2 ton dual axle van into Flinders with it. I once got pretty bogged in a bad section of Main Beach and with no CDL, just traction control made it hard to rock and start off again - but then again I had the standard michellin 235/70/16s. Since then I have upgraded tyres to the Pirelli Scorp' AT 265/70/16 which gives a stack more sidewall height. When these babies are aired down im expecting a long footprint compared to the stockers - 31 inch compared to 29.5 approx. I reckon on the soft sand we will do very well at Fraser soon. The other option is to take my 95 D1 with open diffs but CDL. It only runs 245/70/165. I am reluctant to take her because despite being really well maintained she runs LPG and only a small fuel tank.

The 02 is a manual, and the 95 is an auto (which is naturally better on sand) - which one do you reckon would be the best on soft sand...on high crown tracks the 02 would be better because its quite a bit higher than the 95 - both stock suspensions and both V8s.

Cheers

[westonben]

I've got a 1999 Series 1 (Gulf spec) which is probably just like your 95 and my friend has an 03 Series 2. Both are autos. Both have standard tyres and both do really well when we take them to the dunes here in Qatar.

We drop the tyre pressures to about 16psi. When I got stuck, however, I was pretty happy to have the diff lock!

[Urban Panzer]

The D2's traction control system is very very good, the fact you have the new AT tyres will probably make the difference compared to before.

You "could" always add a CDL to your D2, but because yours is an 02 plate, its more likely to need the bits in the transfer case as well as the linkage so it becomes more expensive.

But a D2 with a CDL and TC is a formiddable machine :D

[ozscott]

Thanks fellas. Yeah it has always surprised me on sand even with standard tyres. The big difference I reckon with CDL is not getting so much of a side to side up on deep sand at speed. CDL equiped landy with me last trip was not side to siding as much - i notice on fast dirt that my 95 D1 with CDL locked is a much better proposition than unlocked. The 02's chattering on deep sand helps to prevent burrowing down to almost stationery and with plenty of right foot to help it work (ie to help it transfer drive) it does go very well. The off idle torque and directness of the manual helps too I reckon. My gut tells me the much bigger tyres will make it much better again.

Cheers

[tassiedisco]

The 2 Ts, mate! "Tyres" and "Technique"! ;)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

How can you go wrong on the beach?
V8.
Auto.
TC.



CDL is just the icing:D

[ozscott]

Thanks mate. Yep technique is a big deal on the sand. I love sand driving...particularly going past modern Jeep Cherokees stuck.

My D2 is a manual with traction control and no CDL, but the 31 inch tyres...I reckon the tyres will tip the balance in favour of the D2 in this one. The D1 has better articulation but thats not an issue in the sand.

Cheers

[John W]

The good thing about sand is that all wheels get pretty much the same traction with the small exception of a very steep climb so CDL is not so important. I recently put in a cable to activate the CDL of my auto diesel D2 and it means a lot less work for my traction control but I do not think that I am getting much further in sand now with it. Go the D2 , Have fun!

[Zute]

Ive just done a East West crossing of the Simpson:D Locking the CDL made things so much easyer. But so did dropping the tyres to 20psi.
I'd take the D1 though just for the auto.

[ozscott]

Cheers mate...given my recent post about the HDC not working in the D2 and with it the tractions control being on the High Range setting (ie next to useless) I am concerned about electrical gremlins wrecking the fraser trip. I may go for the D1, but the only problem is the lack of LPG on the island. I get about 330ks in peak hour driving from the LPG, but soft sand in parts and otherwise hard sand (picking the low tide to travel) will see about the same (ie on the hard at 60-80ks is very good economy compared to peak hour). But then its down to the 40litre subtank on fuel. My air flow meter has always been buggered and im not going to replace it given that its an LPG vehicle (huge cost for the hot wire air mass sensor!!) so on fuel is pretty rich...good go though:). I would have to take a couple of jerry cans and thats a pain - no roof rack (yet...good excuse:)) and small load area compared to the D2....decisions decisions..

Cheers

[Ricey]

Ive just done a East West crossing of the Simpson:D Locking the CDL made things so much easyer. But so did dropping the tyres to 20psi.
I'd take the D1 though just for the auto.

Get to work Zute & write up your trip report! :p I've seen your posts on overheating but did you have any issues with the D2's auto on the crossing?

I'm leaving next wednesday for a westerly crossing, hows the conditions?
Pete

[ozscott]

It would set me back $2k to install a new output housing and CDL shift kit in the D2. For that dosh I could get a long range fuel tank and front locker in my D1....mmmm...got me thinking...mmmmm

[Zute]

Ricey, I have a manuel box. Used 74litres Birdsville to Mt Dare. Very slow going 1st high or 2nd-3rd low. lots of bumps that try and rearange the load if you drive over 20km/h. 20psi made it easy and lock the CDL. Pm me if you wont more.

[harlie]

I had a D1300tdi manual and changed to a D2TD5 auto. On Fraser I think the D1 handled everything easier and I rarely used the CDL in the eight years I owned it.
Why? Don’t really know, they had exactly same tyres (245/70r16). The D1 is quite a lot lighter – but the power to weight ratio in D2 is better, I believe that the manual does it better in Island situations (short, sometimes steep stretches of soft sand) – there’s no torque loss in the torque converter - but you MUST be in the right gear to start with.

As you know Fraser is big, and good holidays can involve a lot of kms, so I would be concerned about fuel range, we base ourselves up at Sandy Cape and usually need a jerry to get back to Rainbow with the Diesels but we always havethe fuel outlet at Orchid as a backup – pity you can’t get past Ngkala Rocks (or however it’s spelt) after the subsidence on Monday.


I must admit the CDL kit is on my list for the TD5..

[mrapocalypse]

hey Fellas,

I run a D2 V8 Auto with a 2" lift. That's a very nice safe and low profile set up! We have had the CDL kit installed from MR for about $1300. On sand I never really needed it until we were pulling a hilux out of the approach to main Beach on Straddy. I run 16 PSi in the sand and it is pretty much unstopable with CDL and 265/70/16 Cooper STs.

In fact we were stopped with wheels spinning with Hilux attached to strap, unhitched strap and mighty D2 just dug it's way out. The Hilux had bottomed so we left him and his trailer with 2 Seadoos where they were.

We regularly climb a very steep dune of about 30 to 40 metres that will stop all other trucks with big tyres and engines, so we get the camp site to ourselves. The landy has never NOT gone up that Dune. Things fall off the dash and Wife shrieks but we get there with rooster tails and revs!

Our D1 was a great truck, but the D2 I am so in love with that I will never drive anything else.

Tyres and technique are really the truth!

[ozscott]

Thanks fellas. MR quoted me $1500 to install the CDL - ie new output housing and internals and making sure the loom is wired up so that the CDL light goes on when it should. A shifter kit is $400...so its all gone up a bit I think.

My D2 has 54 wet litres of LPG (good for 300ks in peak hour traffic) and the original 90 litre fuel tank...so it would be a good proposition distance wise if I fill up before the barge.

Cheers

[Kandy]

Hi
Take the D2
Mines a 2003, auto, old MichXPC 235s, Ok has CDL but stopped using it and let the ETC do its job, (must be getting lazy). Did a test run a couple of times up the Indian Head track. CDL on it goes straighter, more positive feel but not much in it with CDL off, just funny noises.
Had a 200tdi, Khumo 205s, manual and always had to use the CDL in soft stuff.
Soon need to replace the XPCs (if they wear out!) and considering Scorpion ATs-- is 265 /70 OK, not to big and upset articulation,i.e rub into guard etc.
Please let me know how they go.
Cheers
Steve

[Kandy]

OH I meant to add Im going up to Fraser next week 19th, when are you going?
Steve

[ozscott]

Hi Kandy.

Yep I will take the D2 - I just got underneath the other day and gave the terminal connectors a good spray with contact cleaner and pulled the fuse for the HDC and stuck it back in...and so far all good the HDC is working, the computer knows when its in low range now and off road the traction control on axle twisters in low first is very aggressive and working like it normally does - very well.

The Scorpions are good off road and should be excellent in sand. They won the4X4 tyre test a year or so ago and scored about 8.5/10 in sand from memory - they are pretty big with a long footprint and better rolling angle for sand.

Cheers

PS. Im going late Oct for 3 nights. Where are you going?

[simonr23]

i took my car onto the beach for the first time today. the sand was a bit damp from the recent rain, but it was well up the beach, away from the tides. i dont have cdl and TC only ever blinked on a couple of times. i was pretty happy. the engine was working hard though. the 245/75 tyres have taken the edge off the power. 40kph in H2 at 2700rpms for 20min straight in 15-20cm deep sand and the temp was hovering around 97-100c. stopped a couple of times to let it recover a bit. (87-90 is the usual temp it sits on when cruising) boost was always around 1.05-1.12bar(my max) it would be nice to be able to lock the torque converter in all gears. the trans never played up or seemed to get hot, but it surely cant be great for it to be slipping under load for so long.

[ozscott]

Gday mate - I dont have an aftermarket temp gauge so I cant talk about increments. I have had mine in deep sand many times including towing a heavy camper and I have not ever, even in summer, seen the temp gugue move away from the usual half way position. Having said that the gauge might be calibrated not to move unless going to close to 100+ I dont know.

The manual is good for sand and quick changes if needs be can keep you out of trouble - its amazing how fast you can slam a gear if in trouble!

Cheers

[Gullible]

Being the only D1 on a club day out at Stockton Beach last weekend, we needed a lot more momentum to keep going in the soft sand and to get up the big dunes than those with TC.

Isn't that why people with D1's get rear diff locks?

[ozscott]

Hi BB - thanks for that...did the D2s climbing the dunes easier than the D1 have CDL and traction control or just traction control. Most D2s out and about have not got CDL fitted. I have done heaps of beach and deep sand driving, but never dune climbing

Cheers

[Gullible]

Hi Ozscott,
There were 2 D2's with traction control but no CDL, and 5 D3's, all needed less momentum than we did to get up the dunes.

The most noticeable difference was near the top of the dune where you are supposed to back off the throttle a bit to stop you getting air. On some of the dunes that was just not possible for us, we had to crest the dune a lot faster and the suspension copped a pounding, while the D2’s traction control kicked in and just pulled them over the last bit.

It is impressive to watch a TC at work in the sand, all 4 wheels rotating slowly moving a lot of sand with the vehicle just inching forward.

[njz]

I'm curious - is a rear locker any use on sand at all? Or does it just dig your rear wheels in deeper?

I'm heading up to Fraser next month in my D1 V8 which has an ARB rear locker and it would be handy to know.

[mrapocalypse]

TC works great when the going ins't too intense but it will overheat and turn off if you work it real hard as in when you are stuck.

265/70/16s don't rub AFAIK! I have twisted mine pretty hard!

[Gullible]

I'm curious - is a rear locker any use on sand at all? Or does it just dig your rear wheels in deeper?

I'm heading up to Fraser next month in my D1 V8 which has an ARB rear locker and it would be handy to know.

You 'Dig In' when you have lost forward momentum and keep the power on so the wheels still spin. As you are no longer going forward the tyre tread takes the sand from beneath the wheel and chucks it out the back, the longer you do that the deeper you go.

As soon as you have lost forward momentum take your foot off the accelerator, back up a way and start again.

Tyre pressure is extremely important, 15psi is what all the club Land Rovers use on sand. You will only peel the tyre off the rim if you try to corner too quickly and cornering too quickly in sand gets you stuck.:(

As for the rear locker. Lock it up as soon as your on sand, with that and CDL locked up you'll have 3 driving wheels and no problems.:D

If you start getting bogged or fail to make it up a dune after a while, recheck your tyre pressure as they will heat up and increase psi throughout the day. Drop the tyres down to 15psi, back up and take another run at it.

One last tip that will really make driving on sand fun, take a training course on sand driving. Without one you likely to make some expensive mistakes.

[ozscott]

Thanks for that BB. About 3 years ago I towed a 2.2tonn dual axle caravan down from Amity and into Flinders Beach camping ground at Straddie. A few blokes with us were very impressed at the standard height manual D2 V8 with standard 235 Michellins and just traction control doing it with no problems - they commented that from the outside when the speed got low it just pulled through with each wheel resisting the spin...one with a Patrol with 33 inch tyres was openly gobsmacked and started mumbling about bloody electronics making the rover look good :)

I have used it many times in situations where it goes off its rocker - the TCS - in very deep soft sand such as that going from Main Beach into the pools near the mining road on straddie that caused my brothers then 75 series with 34s on to have trouble too and I never got bogged and the TCS never overheated. Same for places like Mount Mee and the A-Break when it had been very badly rutted out by heavy rains...im sure it will eventually overheat but I havent had that problem to date.

Of course having 265/70s will make a big difference on the sand and will see the TCS not coming on much at all...the biggest difference of CDL on deep stuff that I can see is faster speed on soft sand...once had to come back along Main Beach straddie with a tide that was quite high. My brother in his latest truck - County - had CDL locked in and he tracked nice and straight whereas my D2 wandered more - both had similar tyres, although his skinnier tyres might have tramtracked less. On my D1 on dirt with the CDL locked it handles better and feels MUCH better than my d2 when going fast.

Cheers

Cheers

[westonben]

Under what conditions should the CDL be used when in deep sand? Just when stuck?

[ozscott]

As long as the sand is enough to slip in - ie not hard packed sand that might tend to induce transmission wind up like bitumen - you should have it locked - helps with steering/handling and means that your getting as much help as you can get...

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

you should use the CDL once a month,, even if its only up a dirt road,, lots of cdl problems come from the once a year syndrome,,

oh and engage cdl as soon as you hit the beach,,
(as an added benefit it decreases the turning circle considerably:p)

an auto on the beach will always be better than a manual,,
:cool:

[westonben]

OK, so approaching a soft sand dune, from hard compacted sand, stop engage diff lock and hit it. Once down the far side, stop, disengage.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

you dont need to stop to engage the CDL,,
(one of its finest functions)
any speed any time,,

depending on usage you may need to stop/reverse to un-engage it however---

[Pedro_The_Swift]

depending on the size of the dune you may need to change ranges,,, :p

[Kandy]

Good on ya ozscott, started a great thread. Im staying at Orchard Beach in a house-told you I was getting lazy.
I tried changing to CDL on the fly in the D1 once, what a noise, and never again, must take some practice and probably worthy of another thread.
Only overheated once (D1) due to faulty thermostat, only bogged once, also D1--early days--due to to high tyre pressure. Ah, experience, what a great teacher.
I think if I saw some vehicles ahead getting bogged (at least 2 or more)I reckon Id engage CDL but otherwise ETC in sand is fine by me and no heating issues. Certainly the drier that sand is the more difficult/harder things work as its not "packing" underneath the tyres, but that wouldnt be any fun then:D
Cheers.

[ozscott]

Gday Kandy - yep I love driving in soft sand - great fun.:) I have locked the CDL at 80-100kph many times in my D1 auto and there is no noise at all...not sure why yours played up. They are meant to me shift on the fly and mine has been fine.

Cheers

[ozscott]

I posted this in Qld Reports but it may not get a response there - there are Fraser people in this thread already:

Wanted to get from Hook Pt to Kingfisher Bay. I might be cutting it fine for the tides. On my HEMA map it seems to show the track just in from the beach going to a pt about 5klm south of Dilli and then ending, so you have to go onto the beach for about 5ks, and once at Dilli you can go on main tracks inland.

However my fraser island guide book and an old Dirty Weekends Book that I have seems to imply a track off the beach all the way to Dilli - ie without having to go onto the beach.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me please? Much appreciated.

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

just to clear things,,

in a D1 or D2(guessing here---)

the CDL lever goes,,,

to the left,, dis-engage
to the right,, engage

(NOT north - south,,,)

in High or Low range
at any speed.


if you are getting crunches
:eek::eek::eek::eek:

[nice1guv]

just to clear things,,

in a D1 or D2(guessing here---)

the CDL lever goes,,,

to the left,, dis-engage
to the right,, engage

(NOT north - south,,,)

in High or Low range
at any speed.


if you are getting crunches
:eek::eek::eek::eek:

That's not how my 96 D1 auto CDL works :eek:

To the left engages CDL
To the right dis-engages CDL

Forward low range
Back high range

and yes left or right in low or high

I did think you were meant to slow to below 8km/h and shift to neutral before engaging or dis-engaging CDL, but I have never tried it at speed.

[jmkoffice]

Yep, in both my old D1's and my current D2, the CDL is activated to the left of the "H pattern" with low range to the top and high to the bottom. To the right of the "H pattern" is Just low to the top and high to the bottom.

[cockie55]

"......I have locked the CDL at 80-100kph many times in my D1 auto..."

what the %%^$^*&

[nice1guv]

"......I have locked the CDL at 80-100kph many times in my D1 auto..."

what the %%^$^*&

cockie55 and Pedro are right! of course!

I've just consulted the original D1 manual and you can engage and dis-engage CDL at any speed! whether in high or low range.

You learn something everyday! :D

Up until now I've just been cautious and always nearly stopped.

Can't want to try it at speed now!

The 8km/h thing, actually 5km/h I believe now, is for going from high to low and low to high.

[westonben]

I'm off to the dunes tomorrow. I'll give this a try. Maybe not at 100kph on the first attempt though!

[ozscott]

My handbook says the CDL can be locked at any speed...as opposed to changing to low range!...and I do it and there is absolutely NO sound...the CDL light comes on on the dash and the handling changes significantly for the better on dirt...:)

[ozscott]

...arrhh...i think cockie was doubting it:)

[nice1guv]

My handbook says the CDL can be locked at any speed...as opposed to changing to low range!

Reminds me of something I said a couple of hours earlier. :D

[ozscott]

Here Here:) I posted yesterday - page 4 - that I regularly engage CDL at 80-100kph. Cockie said "wtf" about that. I only tried it because the book said it was ok..I was shocked at first when I read it that it could be done and tried it first at 20kph, then 40, then 60 and then higher and it is sweet. Im glad others have handbooks that confirm same:) The handbook can be an underrated thing. For example in my D2 (manual) I change to high range on the fly - 40-50kph - after starting from low range on a steep hill when starting off with my 2tonn boat to save the clutch. I found that the handbook had a couple of very handy tips for practising how to do this successfully without badly crunching the case.


Cheers

[nice1guv]

Ahh...I thought cockie55 was saying he did it at 100km/h, I didn't realise it was a quote from someone else.

Spose that's what the quotation marks meant! :p