Help - buying a 99 D2 TD5 but it spat out coolant on test drive!

[stumo]

As the title says, I took it for maybe a 20min test drive. not caining it (well not too hard) and it wasn't a hot day at all. All was going well, and I was just driving it back to the dealer to make an offer... and then I noticed someting...

The water temp guage had dropped to low/cold. It has previously been sitting bang on normal. So I pulled over and stopped it and saw probably 2 litres of coolant pouring out underneath from the drivers side of the engine. It had stopped pouring by the time I got round and poped the bonnet.

It was so much coolant that I guess it may have been a poped hose, but you just can't see anything on that side of the engine. I did notice some drips coming from what I think is the overflow pipe on the header tank. But I cannot say if that was the source. The header tank was well empty by that stage. So I drove it the further 500m back to the dealers.

He put about 3 litres of water in it and it was still nowhere near full. I left it at that. The are going to call me on monday when it is in their workshop and I can go and have a chat to the mechanics about it, but am I wasting my time?

The only nice thing I can think of that would cause this is a blown hose (which could possibly be a head gasket failure). Does anyone have any input on this? I'm really keen on the wagon, it is exactly what I've been waiting for.

Cheers
Stu.

[Slunnie]

Avoid it like the plague.

[scarry]

forget that one.....keep looking:)

cheers

[eckolsim]

Two choices. Run or Take $5k off the price as if its cooked it starts there and heads up.

If you are any good with cars this could also be an opportunity to get a bargain if you can work out what it is and be prepared to fix it yourself. Whatever you do, don't pay anywhere near what they asked for.

[Blknight.aus]

if your good with spanners offer them half their asking price if its over $10K
if its $10K offer them $5 if its less than $10K you dont want to know about it.

[McDisco]

Sound advice from the previous posters. Dont let your eagerness to get a Disco over rule common sense. There will be other vehicles and you dont want to get this one and then regret it later.

I at least enjoyed a year of trouble free diving before things started to break...but maybe that because of how I drive it? :D

Angus

[stumo]

Thanks for the help so far everyone.

So the overwhelming consensus is that it is a blown head gasket, and that will cost around 5k just for the gasket fix. It could have cooked the bottom end too, but it did seem to be in very good condition - no blowby or odd noises.

I have been known to weild a spanner in the past, so I'll wait and see what they say on Monday. It has done 200k and they want 15k for it (its an actual ES TD5, as opposed to most dealer adds that just call any discovery any ES). I will post back here with their explanation on Monday - and a link to the car to hopefully warn others.

Worst case... does anyone know what the cheapest option would be if it needed a whole replacement engine?

[McDisco]

Cheapest option is obviously buying a 2nd hand one...might get change from say $8k? Am I being optimistic though?

Angus

[stumo]

The plot thickens...

By a strange twist of fate, I actually stumbled upon the phone number of the previous owner and have just had a chat...

He said that he hasn't seen any water "****ing out" of it, but he said that the temperature guage had been playing up for a while. He said it usually starts off ok, then drops out after a while, saying he thought it was an electrical fault (the old - "they all do it" call).

He sounded like an honest enough guy, and he no longer has a vested interest in the car, so he said he would tell me if he knew of any problems.

I would have thought that it is unlikely that the guage would drop out due to an electrical problem (but I wouldn't put it past the Pomms aay). Also, the coolant loss I saw tends to support the more common diagnosis of low coolant causing the guage to drop.

Maybe someone can shed some more light on this whole guage thing? But there are so many questions...

like how much coolant loss does there need to be before the temp sensor is exposed like that?

Is engine overheating likely to occur if coolant gets to that level?

Is there any possible explanation (other than head gasket failure or overheating) for the violent loss of coolant that I saw, given that the coolant level got low enough to expose the sensor? by hte way, there was no additional coolant loss once I got back to the dealer - maybe there was none left.

[101RRS]

You have been given lots of good advice - but I have had other cars dump coolant for a whole host of reasons.

As you said it does drive and sound OK so that there is a chance it is OK - I appreciate a blown head gasket can show different symptoms but I would expect for than just dumping water - if it was pressuring the coolant system that means the gasket has blown into a cylinder head - maybe should be some loss of power, bubbles in the coolant etc, steam in the exhaust.

If I were you, I woulod get the car - fill it right up and bleed out the air and take it on a good long run and see if it does the same - if so check for bubbles in the coolant etc and take it back to the seller and either negotiate way down or walk away - if there is no subsequent dumping of water I would get a mechanical inspection - second opionion.

Then argue a price right down.

In either case it is buyer beware - if in doubt walk away there will be another one -a better one if you are patient.

And remeber there is some good advice on this thread.

Garry

[Hendrik]

My 99Td5 once lost all its coolant from a busted heater hose near the tank. The tank was completely empty, and it was only when i realised that i was loosing power, that i glanced up at the temprature guage and noticed that it was 3/4 of the way up, however the gauge did not drop the way you describe. Anyway i fixed up the hose and no biggie shes just the way she was before the incident. As others say, i would check for bubbles, i checked mine and its still fine, but maybe i was just lucky. Remember though, the gauge stops working once all the coolant drains out. Not too familiar with the computerised gauges though, they might work a bit differently.

[Disco95]

I have to agree with the last post. My V8 has spat coolant on a few different occasions none of them were head gasket related (I know, I pulled the heads off last time and still had problems):mad::mad::mad:
BUT, from what I've read around the place landy deisels don't like to get hot.
I'd walk away and find another. You can actually get some pretty cheap TD5's nowadays.

[stumo]

BUT, from what I've read around the place landy deisels don't like to get hot.
This applies to pretty much any diesel with an alloy head. From my (limited) research, I reckon the TD5 is one of the best of the new wave of HDI diesels engines that appeared around the turn of the century. Just look at what heppened when both Nissan and Isuzu tried (and failed).



I'd walk away and find another. You can actually get some pretty cheap TD5's nowadays.
I'm think I'm beginning to realise why this is the case.



I was looking through the rave manual, and discovered that the temp sender is on the outlet from the head. So it is quite high up. So could there have been an airlock in the system which caused these symptoms I wonder?

[Slunnie]

The problem with the TD5, is that an overheat (or a hot spot from a coolant bubble) can be enough to start the ball rolling for a failure in the engine which occurs latter on down the track. Some get away with it, some dont. There are plenty more TD5's out there to chose from. Personally, I wouldn't buy any TD5 that had even been overheated.

[WildOne]

As others have already said, don't touch it, there are heaps of Landy's out there that would be a better choice, what dealer is it? Do they know anything about TD5's?
Bet they just top up the coolant and wait for the next unsuspecting client! It was probably them that did'nt bleed it properly in the first place!!

[stumo]

I have heard back from their mechanic now, and the coolant system has been pressure tested and it is fine.

It hadn't been bled properly which led to the temeperature gauge problem (it is NOT an electrical fault). And this is a historical issue since the previous owner reported the same problem had been happening for "a while". Also the mechanic reckons the cap hadn't been put on right so that is why there was coolant loss.

So based on the advice here about this situation causing hot spots, and reading about the stretch bolts and plastic dowels etc etc.

I think I'm ready to walk away from this one. I will post links to the car later when I have fully decided.

[abaddonxi]

Run, run.

Cheers
Simon

[WildOne]

Run, run.

Cheers
Simon

Faster, Faster:D

[p38arover]

And this is a historical issue since the previous owner reported the same problem had been happening for "a while". A

<snip>

I think I'm ready to walk away from this one.

Agree with others, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Turn back now .

[DiscoDan]

If the price is right, and I know they are coming down, it might be the right one to buy,

Just don't stretch your budget to buy it, try to allow the worst out come eg 6-7k for a repair and if the car still falls into a good buy then look at it and get it.

Ask the old owner what he got as a trade in, this will give you a bargaining leaver.

You said it was 15k, and the dealer paid $X for it and you had it spit out water Get the picture.

I know of a 2000 D2 for 10k he was offered 4k as a trade. Even if I have to rebuild an engine it is still cheaper than others on the market. Even come with a safety cert.

Danny

[justinc]

If the price is right, and I know they are coming down, it might be the right one to buy,

Just don't stretch your budget to buy it, try to allow the worst out come eg 6-7k for a repair and if the car still falls into a good buy then look at it and get it.

Ask the old owner what he got as a trade in, this will give you a bargaining leaver.

You said it was 15k, and the dealer paid $X for it and you had it spit out water Get the picture.

I know of a 2000 D2 for 10k he was offered 4k as a trade. Even if I have to rebuild an engine it is still cheaper than others on the market. Even come with a safety cert.

Danny

I just had a customer offered $6k trade for his 2001 Td5 in exceptional condition. It has 240k on the clock but is all highway miles for work. He oil changes within 200km of the 10K interval and drives conservatively. I would give him 12k at least for it if I was paying retail:eek:.

JC

[feral]

Run, run.

Cheers
Simon


Faster, Faster:D



RUN, FASTER, RUN........ ARE YOU GETTING THE MESSAGE?

Let me give you a little financial advice...it's very easy to spend someone else's money. They don't have to live with the decision and the costs incurred.


Have I made my point? :p

[stumo]

I should have run really, but instead I have made a reasonable (final and only) offer to the dealer. I will post his response as it comes to hand.

Funny thing is, now that I have laid all my cards on the table, I don't really care if it goes either way. I guess it comes down to something only being worth what someone is willing to pay for it (assuming a level playing field).

[DiscoDan]

Mate I did the same, the price reflected the condition of the car, and even though the service history was not a good as I would have liked,

I have learnt from this site and my D1 that a good service record "does not" mean trouble free motoring.

Good advice in this thread though, but some times the car is the right one and it is the right price.

Danny

[stumo]

The dealer has declined my offer as expected. It will be sold to some poor unsuspecting soul. So I am providing the links to the car to help warn others about what they are getting themselves into.

And if the new owner does show up here with problems long after these links go dead, the car is a green 99/00 ES TD5 reg no PWM341.

It is a shame about its history because it is a very nice looking wagon as I'm sure you would agree...
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150280767231

Big thanks to everyone for their advice (and patience).

Cheers

ps. the previous owner paid a "change-over" price of 25k to trade to a used car listed at 37k, so this car actually owes the dealer about 6k max (which fits in with what others have said here).

[p38arover]

So the seller is a used car dealer, not an LR dealer?

[stumo]

So the seller is a used car dealer, not an LR dealer?
Is there a difference?

This guy has 200k+ Maseraties (or is that Maseratii;)), Lambos, ferraris, you name it, sitting on his lot gathering dust. The Disco is just a tradein to clear. But he would still rather get a few extra grand by selling it to an unsuspecting punter over someone who knows its actual history.

Once a car salesman, always a car salesman I say.

[Rad97]

Count yourself lucky!

This is the main reason why cars are traded. (mechanical problems).

The car dealer reasoning for the problem sound suspect.
e.g. when you put a raditor cap on incorrectly the water leaks out slowly causing the gauge to rise constantly to the point of boiling not moving up and down spiradicaly, you would have noticed it constantly rising and the smell and steam from the engine bay.

When a gauge drops the water has dropped below the level of the sender
then when the water touches a hot spot it is super heated to steam heating the sender and causeing the gauge to rise quickly, I suspect the old owner had an incling into the trouble that might happen in the future

Just think that was a 20 minute drive

good luck with your search for a new beast.

[2 rocks]

I think you've done the right thing in letting this one go.

I was lucky with mine - it too was spitting coolant, but I had access to the full service history and the workshop who identified the issue. I was then able to have it checked by my workshop and verified it had been poorly bled. Problem solved.

I should point out it was not losing anything like what you originally described and the gauge wasn't waving up and down!

Good luck in your hunt for the "right" Td5!
Cheers
Mike

[stumo]

I should point out it was not losing anything like what you originally described and the gauge wasn't waving up and down!

Just to clarify, it wasn't waving up and down (not sure where that came from). It started and warmed up as normal, rising to Normal. Then I noticed after about 10 more minutes that it had dropped to near enough cold. I didn't see it at the point that it dropped, just after the fact.

Then I saw the coolant pouring out underneath, which their mechanic speculated was the cap not fitted correctly (no way of proving that because we took it off to refill). But (and it is a big BUT) the dealer (in his declineing of my offer) said that their mechanic was replacing a coolant hose (which he didn't mention anything about to me) so maybe in reality it is much worse than just the cap.

The main probem I had with it though was that the previous owner has been driving it for "quite a while" in the low coolant/trapped air state. If it was a once off then no real damage would have been done. But if you drove it everyday like that for "quite a while" then I'm sure the engine will get its own back one day soon.

I feel sorry for whoever buys it, and lets just hope that they can afford the upcoming repair bill.

[disco_mitch]

i feel so sorry for the poor buggr that buys this car and no doubt the so called waranty they come with wont cover this problem

[ariddell]

i feel so sorry for the poor buggr that buys this car and no doubt the so called waranty they come with wont cover this problem

Yep, would be slightly different if it was still covered by statutory warranty as the dealer would be obliged to fix any issues regardless of severity for the first 3 months/5000km without limitation, but since that's only valid on cars with up to 160,000km this one will be excluded.

Think you've definately done the right thing to walk away.

[stumo]

Yep, would be slightly different if it was still covered by statutory warranty
Yes good point, also the "Exclusive Prestige 10 year warranty" they are offering with this vehivle specifically excluded head gasket failure (and basically every other cause of major engine damage) so it isn't worth the paper its printed on.