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stomps
13th August 2008, 11:00 AM
Howdy,

I have just returned from Fraser Island yesterday, great trip, except? Started off in 4wd and returned in 2wd. Not an easy feat getting from one side of the island through the sand with only the rear wheels working.

What I really need is some info on the series transfer cases. before the usual chants of use the search button I have to no avail. In essence I drive a series 2a with a ford 4.9 and a C10 auto box running all the rest of the drive train from a series 3 V8, (diff, etc). up until I drove up off the beach up a steep sandy track she worked like a dream. Then there was a clunk and no more front wheel drive. There was a couple of clatters coming from the box a little while earlier but nothing too extreme.

I guess I'm trying to find some general info on the series tfr box how many variants, were there different ratios, was the V8 and other variants the same etc. etc.

And more importantly is this a common problem. 24 years in the army and I havnt broken one before (I realise that the infantry drive delicately). I know I am seeking a lot of general info but before I acquire a tfr case am I getting the right one?

Any info would be great or maybe you could pm me a phone number and I could ring for a chat if typing annoys you as much as it does me. I would really appreciate the intake of knowledge.

Last but not least if anyone has an old tfr case (in or around Brisbane) that meets the specs making the shed look untidy I would also love to hear from you. I love the old girl to bits but I am starting to pull my hair out.

Thanks in advance,

Tim.

dandlandyman
13th August 2008, 11:51 AM
With a 4.9L V8 (I think that's what you meant) the Land Rover axles aren't really up to much. Unlike the 2a, the Stage 1 V8s weak point is actually in the front axles. I'd say you've sheared a halfshaft. Most likely the shorter driver's side one.
To check without dismantling the front axle, make sure the diff lock is disengaged and pull on the hand brake (this is mostly for safety's sake), then scramble underneath and play with the front propshaft. If you can turn it (it may be a bit stubborn and graunchy) the problem's in the axle. If not, look to the transfer case. You could also lift one front wheel and try to turn it. With the diff lock out, the propshaft will turn, with it in, you won't turn the wheel. Anything otherwise is a broken axle.
Hope this helps.

Dan.
69 2a 88" pet4, 74 3 109" pet4, 68 2b FC pet6.

jimbo110
13th August 2008, 11:52 AM
A series 3 V8 runs an LT95 (Rangerover) one piece gearbox transfer case and is permanent 4WD, is that what you have? Or do you have a Series Landrover part time 4WD transfer case? Do you have a centre diff lock?

stomps
13th August 2008, 01:39 PM
sorry, I may have bum drummed you the rear diff is a 24 spline Salisbury with a macnamara manual diff lock 4.54 (I think) I was told that these were out of a V8? I don't think the front diff is out of a V8, because, I was told that if I wanted diff lock in the front I would need a stage 1 front diff.

So are you guys saying it may be the axel not the tfr?

This is definably a part time set up with no ctr diff lock.

thanks,

Tim.

rangieman
13th August 2008, 01:44 PM
Do you have free wheeling hubs make sure they are engaged;)

stomps
13th August 2008, 01:53 PM
No free wheelers,

I had spent the last couple of days churning through the sand, effortlessly, the forward 2 wheels started at the bottom and stopped half way up. Hence I didnt make it.

I wish it was that simple!

Tim

dandlandyman
13th August 2008, 02:59 PM
Sorry, Tim, I just assumed when you mentioned Series 3 V8 driveline that you started with a Stage 1. I haven't heard of a Stage 1 transfer case (full-time 4x4) giving up like that, which is why I guessed front axle. In fact, I think if one did give out, you'd have no drive whatsoever. If it's a standard series transfer (part-time 4x4), I guess it would break given your powerplant. Beware, too that if you have different diffs (Series 4.7:1, Stage 1 3.54:1) in each axle, the wind-up WILL break stuff.

Dan.

jimbo110
13th August 2008, 03:31 PM
If you put the transfer case in 2WD and the gearbox in neutral, can you turn the front drive shaft? If you can you have broken something in the front end. A series 3 V8 salisbury is 3.54 ratio, a 4 cylinder one is 4.7:1

JDNSW
13th August 2008, 04:19 PM
You have me puzzled - all Landrover V8 drive trains have had a full time four wheel drive transfer case.

But if you have a 2/4 transfer case, if it is a Rover one, it has to be a Series T/C. These were essentially the same (and interchangeable as a unit) from 1951 Series 1 through to the end of Series 3 production, with minor changes to ratios and, from about the middle of S2a production, a heavier intermediate shaft. But since it is coupeld to an auto box, it is possible it is not even a Landrover part, or if it is, may have been modified to fit.

If it is a Series T/C, they are fairly common, and rarely give any problem except noise due to wear or occasionally sticking selectors, although I have heard of catastrphic failures. The bottom plate is easily removed in the vehicle to see what has gone wrong.

Are you sure it is the transfer case? A broken half shaft or even diff is much more common.

John

Blknight.aus
13th August 2008, 05:58 PM
the only thing that usually stops a series box giving front wheel drive is the selector dog shedding but its pretty rare, more common is killing the front shafts or diffs...

I suspect that youve taken out a CV more than killed the tcase....

drop the bottom off of the tcase (pics of the case will let us identify it) and see how much swarf you get.

stomps
13th August 2008, 06:01 PM
Thanks,
your right with the ratio, its been a long day.
I will check if the front prop shaft turns tomorrow.
My manual along with all my books is in storage (were moving yet again) any know the whereabouts of a transfer box exploded view in the net?
Thanks,

Tim

jimbo110
13th August 2008, 06:16 PM
To be truthfull they are a pretty strong transfer case and it would be more than likely you have broken something in the front axle. In the transfer case is a collar that slides over some large teeth to give you drive out of the front and it's not prone to give trouble, even with V8's. Something in the axle will give up first like a half shaft, spider gears or the main pin!

stomps
13th August 2008, 07:08 PM
Guys,
Thanks for your replies. I probably worded this wrongly from the start.
The car is a bitsa, an old series 2a completely rebuilt in 82 or there abouts with then the most current parts in this case series 3. I was told by Fred Smith from Melb (who built it that the rear diff a Salisbury (3,54? I think)was from a series 3 V8). the V8 and the C10 were his choice and with the exception of breaking whatever it was the other day the old girl has been awesome.

It doesnt have a V8 fr diff because Fred told me that if Iwanted to put fr diff lock in I would need to get a stage 1 fr diff. the tfr case is definatly rover and it is not full time fwd.
hi and low range still work although it is pretty hard almost impossible to get it back into hi range (two wheel drive) once engaged.

Thanks,

Tim.

stomps
13th August 2008, 07:17 PM
Thanks,

If that is the case what options do I have with the front diff. ie there is no point replacing it with the same only to break again? is there a stronger option? I wasn't being stupid only trying to get up a sandy track.

Up until then she went where all the others went. No dramas at all. Tomorrow I will check as you said before is there any other check-list i need to follow to isolate the fault?

Thanks,

Tim.

jimbo110
13th August 2008, 08:01 PM
If you have a series 3 V8 (stage 1) front axle then you have the strongest option, next down is a series 3 LWB axle (fine spline drive members) and the weakest is SWB of any series. All of these will still run 10 spline side gears in the diffs (all the diff heads are the same except the stage 1 diff will be higher ratio).
But let's see if yours is stuffed first!;)

Rangier Rover
13th August 2008, 08:16 PM
C10 and series tranfer are quite strong. I don't like the sound of hard to shift to High Range. Tony

Rangier Rover
13th August 2008, 08:17 PM
You have a 3.54 rear and 4.7 front:eek: Or I've miss read your post. Tony

Lotz-A-Landies
13th August 2008, 08:28 PM
Stomps

Make sure you let us know what you diagnose!

I must point out that some of the information you have just received is not 100% correct. The CVs in the Stage 1 front swivels are some of the strongest CVs made for any Land Rover model.
The halfshafts between the diff and the CVs can actually be upgraded using Hi-Tough halfshafts (formerly known as Maxi-Drive halfshafts).
The information about running different diff ratios between front and rear is a concern and will most definately break things on hard surfaces but unlikely on dry sand.

If you have broken a half-shaft and want to replace it with another OEM and have trouble tracking one down, I may be able to assist. However they are still sitting in a casing which I hadn't decided to dismantle yet.

C Ya
Diana

Aaron IIA
13th August 2008, 08:32 PM
Jack up a front wheel and see if it changes ratio a bit easier. Then count the number of turns of the propellor shaft for one revolution of the wheel. Then repeat for the rear propellor shaft and wheel.

Aaron.

jimbo110
13th August 2008, 09:28 PM
You can run a standard series 3 front axle as long as it has the higher ratio diff fitted from an early 90/110 early Disco or any pre 90's Rangie. If this has been done there will be no problems with the diff ratio's. If you lift one wheel off the ground and turn it 2 complete turns and count the number of rotations of the prop shaft you will have the exact ratio of that diff. Do this to both axles and you will know if they are compatable. When I bought my series 1 it had a 4.3 in the rear and a 4.7 in the front, on a hard surface it would wind up and rock the steering wheel around within a few meters of engaging 4WD. A 3.54/4.7 combo would be much worse!

Tank
13th August 2008, 11:17 PM
Thanks,
your right with the ratio, its been a long day.
I will check if the front prop shaft turns tomorrow.
My manual along with all my books is in storage (were moving yet again) any know the whereabouts of a transfer box exploded view in the net?
Thanks,

Tim
At the top of this Series III forum in the "sticky's" there are links to W/shop Manuals, Regards Frank.

stomps
14th August 2008, 06:16 AM
For the guys that offered help re my front end dramas, thanks, I really appreciate your time and effort

Next update-

Did what Jimbo110 suggested and put it into 2wd in nuatral and es the front prop shaft turned. Good news I guess.

This morning on the way to work - I had no choice - bshe was pretty noisy in the front end, however settled in and drove pretty much normally. I am not for a second saying it cured just a lot quieter.

I went back and checked the notes given to me by Fred Smith who built the old girl and they are as follows:

a. Rear diff is a 3.54:1, 24 spline saulbury series 3 V8 diff fitted with a manual McNamara diff lock
b. The front is a 10 spline diff which I was told was also 3.54:1
c. The transfer case is Hi range(1.15:1) and Low range (2.888:1)

Does this all sound ok so far?

Obviously the fr diff that I have is not up to the job so where to now?
Someone was selling a stage 1 diff a while ago, is this my best option?
I just want something that is not going to break especially when your stuck it on the other side of Fraser Island in 2wd. My mates were astounded that I managed to get from one side of Fraser to the mainland in 2wd.

I love the car Ive just fallen out of love with my front diff.

Thanks,

Tim.

Any one know of a stage 1 fr diff for sale?

JDNSW
14th August 2008, 06:38 AM
You need to pull the front end apart and see if it is the diff or a front axle - although just draining the diff oil and see how many lumps come out may tell you where the problem is.

From memory (away from home and no references), the front diff as described will be a standard diff as used by RR classic, Discovery, Stage 1, 110, Defender, and although it is not the strongest around, by far the cheapest and easiest is to simply replace it with a similar one - should be cheap and easy to find a second hand one (and just repeat as necessary!). Beyond that you can fit various upgraded diff centres, but all will be much more expensive and harder to find.

John

250landy
14th August 2008, 06:44 AM
If you need any parts give Dennis a call on 0405313413. I'm sure he will have something around or know where to get one. He is very helpful and lives in bris

Rangier Rover
14th August 2008, 07:40 AM
For the guys that offered help re my front end dramas, thanks, I really appreciate your time and effort

Next update-

Did what Jimbo110 suggested and put it into 2wd in nuatral and es the front prop shaft turned. Good news I guess.

This morning on the way to work - I had no choice - bshe was pretty noisy in the front end, however settled in and drove pretty much normally. I am not for a second saying it cured just a lot quieter.

I went back and checked the notes given to me by Fred Smith who built the old girl and they are as follows:

a. Rear diff is a 3.54:1, 24 spline saulbury series 3 V8 diff fitted with a manual McNamara diff lock
b. The front is a 10 spline diff which I was told was also 3.54:1
c. The transfer case is Hi range(1.15:1) and Low range (2.888:1)

Does this all sound ok so far?

Obviously the fr diff that I have is not up to the job so where to now?
Someone was selling a stage 1 diff a while ago, is this my best option?
I just want something that is not going to break especially when your stuck it on the other side of Fraser Island in 2wd. My mates were astounded that I managed to get from one side of Fraser to the mainland in 2wd.

I love the car Ive just fallen out of love with my front diff.

Thanks,

Tim.

Any one know of a stage 1 fr diff for sale? The stage 1 front it the way to go. They have the AEU1828 cvs:D just get a 24 spline diff center (good excuse to put a locker in:angel: Get some Hi-Tough axles part nos HTE1829.24 (short) HTE1830.24 (long) Hi-Tough engineering 0755304123

The V8 Stage1s are coming up on ebay a bit these days. You may have to buy a complete one and part it out to cover the cost;)
Your rear set up is good.:)
With your curent setup if the front shats its self wile on a trip just pull the axles out and put drive flanges back on. If you have no locking hubs. Then take front drive shaft off so can use low range. Then finish your trip in 2wd:eek: Tony

Lotz-A-Landies
14th August 2008, 10:01 AM
For the guys that offered help re my front end dramas, thanks, I really appreciate your time and effort

Next update-

...
c. The transfer case is Hi range(1.15:1) and Low range (2.888:1)...


...
Thanks,
Tim.
Any one know of a stage 1 fr diff for sale?
Tim your transfer box is out of a Series IIa suffix A or B - the ratio in top is actually 1.148:1 and the 2.888:1 for low transfer is correct. Ideally it is one from a suffix B with the larger intermediate gear shaft.

There was a complete Stage 1 front end on the Sunshine Coast a while back - vendor wanted $1,000 for it. AULRO Classifieds - Message - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds (http://www.aulro.com/apc/showproduct.php/product/2000/cat/25)

Diana

stomps
14th August 2008, 05:00 PM
Thanks heaps guys this is a saga that hopefully will have a happy ending.
Sourced the stage 1 diff and will pick it up on Saturday.
More questions:

Is $700 for a complete diff ok?
Are stage 1 diffs 24 spline and are the ratios the same as my rear (Im assuming that they are.
I found the manuals on the series 3 site (thanks Tank).
How I identify the diff when it is standing infront of me.
And are they pretty bullet proof. I like bullet proof things.
I have replaced plenty of diffs in my life none of them Rovers. Will the stage 1 just slide in, ie same propshaft lengths, brake connections, spring mounts etc. or do I require modifications, as if I need more, (the dash looks like the flight deck of a Sea King chopper)

I just want a strong reliable rover that goes where I want it to. My buisness partner drives a F250 and just cant understand why I love my 37 yo girl and there was nothing more depressing than him pulling me off the beach. mind you he couldn't believe that you could get from one side of Fraser (right up North) back to the mainland in 2wd. Before the diff went all the young blokes fell in love with her.
Gotta love a Landy.

Thanks all,

Tim

Lotz-A-Landies
14th August 2008, 05:54 PM
Is $700 for a complete diff ok?
Am assuming you are talking about the stage 1 axle assembly! (Axle casing, Swivel housings, CVs, halfshafts, brakes, hubs and diff) an recent example: a stage 1 CV joint went for $250 on ebay about 3 weeks ago.


Are stage 1 diffs 24 spline and are the ratios the same as my rear (Im assuming that they are. The Stage 1 has 24 spline outer halfshafts, same as S3 109" the diff is 10 spline the same as early Range Rover classics, Countys and early Defender.

24 spline diffs with the same ratio are found on the last of the Range Rover classics and Discovery I (but are not the same diff as the late Defenders, Discovery II and P38a Range Rover.)

The Stage 1 front axle assembly will bolt in exactly where your current axle assembly is located. There is a slight difference on the angle of the pinion, which could make the prop shaft compressed length a little shorter but your current prop shaft should fit O.K.

The brakes etc are the same or interchangeable, although the Stage 1 will have 16M wheel studs where you may have 9/16" imperial wheel studs (unlikely if you have a Salisbury rear).


I just want a strong reliable rover that goes where I want it to. ...

...Tim
You may want to consider the Hi-Tough hybrid halfshafts and Discovery 24 spline diff as mentioned above, to make it as bullet proof as possible. As said - ideal time to fit a Detroit true trak diff centre.

Others will have to tell us whether you can fit the True Trak diff centre to a Stage 1 diff carrier and only swap the halfshafts.

Diana :)

isuzurover
14th August 2008, 06:02 PM
Tim your transfer box is out of a Series IIa suffix A or B - the ratio in top is actually 1.148:1 and the 2.888:1 for low transfer is correct. Ideally it is one from a suffix B with the larger intermediate gear shaft.


Do you know this? It could just have suffix B low range and intermediate gears - which is a common mod.

I sold a stage 1 diff years ago for $200. I wouldn't pay any more than 200ish for one. As mentioned, there are plenty of complete stage 1s to be had for $1000 or less.

EDIT - I have a Stage 1 front axle in my IIA. It has held up surprisingly well (including the 10-spline inners).

Lotz-A-Landies
14th August 2008, 06:30 PM
:mad: Someone's being more pedantic than me!

No I don't know that it has a suffix A or B transfer case.

However: The casings S1 to Suffix A are the same and the Casings Suffix B to H are the same.
The intermediate shafts < suffix B are all the same and similarly the shafts > A are the same.
All the bits inside the transfer, like the selectors, output shafts etc., are the same.
The only bit that are different are the intermediate gear and low ratio gear.

Having a Suffix A or Suffix B intermediate gear and low ratio gear, would make any box functionally suffix A or suffix B box wouldn't it? :confused:

C Ya
Diana :) :) :)