does anyone have any info on injector pumps for 4BD1

[c.h.i.e.f]

hello everyone i just got of the phone with a well known isuzu dealer who i shal not mention there name and i was looking for injector pumps for 4bd1 isuzu, in particular i was looking for information on wat size injector pumps are compatible with the 4bd1 and wat ratings they hav (HP etc) but they claim that there is nothing i can do with the pump and didnt give me any idea were to call/look for details .does anyone hav any input on anything to do with injector pumps? any info on injector pumps or anything along those lines would be helpfull



cheers!

[incisor]

there was a pump manual available and it is still listed in some bookshops (importdriver and pitstop i think) but when i tried to buy one i was told it was unavailable from the publisher.


i bought one second hand on ebay just a few days ago, not sure exactly what it contains as it hasnt landed yet...
.

[Bigbjorn]

I got one from Motor Books, Sydney. It is Isuzu Motors Limited Injection Pump Service Manual INJ.SE.011, printed in Australia.

[Larns]

Retro fitting a pump off something else would be emensly expensive I imagine. You would have to have the flyweights regraphed, the plungers would have to re-phased and calibrated for correct flow over entire RPM. All this for what I'm not sure, I would be taking your existing pump to a reputable diesel FIP shop, telling them what you want out of your car and letting them re-fresh your pump, and re-time it.
There are a couple of different types of pumps that came out on the 4BD1/T. The obvious two are the Turbo and non turbo types, and from memory there was an emissions compliant pump that came out on the turbos for those countries that req. it
I think Doug's has the emission compliant type, I seem to remember him talking about the anerode on the rear of his pump to stop exsessive smoke during turbo lag. I myself havn't seen these pumps in Aus. but I'm sure they are around.
I do have some graphing information on both sorts of pumps I could track down. But my track record with hunting info down and posting it is pretty bad unless you nag me, otherwise I get distracted pretty easy:angel:............

If you have any specific info your after I might be able to help you.

Cheers

[jimbo110]

there was a pump manual available and it is still listed in some bookshops (importdriver and pitstop i think) but when i tried to buy one i was told it was unavailable from the publisher.

Would it be this one? Import Shop - Importdriver.com.au - Repair Manual Isuzu Bosch Diesel Injection Pumps (http://shop.importdriver.com.au/store/products/item516.inetstore)

[kaa45]

there was a pump manual available and it is still listed in some bookshops (importdriver and pitstop i think) but when i tried to buy one i was told it was unavailable from the publisher.


i bought one second hand on ebay just a few days ago, not sure exactly what it contains as it hasnt landed yet...
.

should've let it go, I was going to scan it and make available on here :mad:

[incisor]

should've let it go, I was going to scan it and make available on here :mad:
thats what i will be doing as well ;)

[incisor]

Would it be this one? Import Shop - Importdriver.com.au - Repair Manual Isuzu Bosch Diesel Injection Pumps (http://shop.importdriver.com.au/store/products/item516.inetstore)

looks like it tho not sure that is exactly it..

they are the mob that told me that it is no longer published.

they still havent delivered the other manual i bought off them either i just remembered..

gotta go make a phone call :P

[Blknight.aus]

theres plenty you can do to the pump.... the emei's go into rebuilding it.

Theres some room for adjustment with the standard gear, what were you aiming for?

[Bigbjorn]

Home Page - Barcode Books (http://www.motorbooks.com.au) still list both the engine and injection pump manuals as available. $45 each. Very comprehensive.

[Dougal]

Like the Black Night asked, what are you aiming for?

These pumps have plenty of headroom. I'm running 20psi boost which produces over 500Nm and the pump can still deliver more.

It's a bosch/diesel kiki/zexel type A pump, I think the governor type is RSV (too many TLA's to remember them all).

[Larns]

Hay Doug's, dose your pump have the boost controled anerode on the rear?
If so can you post a pic up of what it looks like?

:twobeers:

[Dougal]

Hay Doug's, dose your pump have the boost controled anerode on the rear?
If so can you post a pic up of what it looks like?

:twobeers:

Here ya go.
Cummins 4BT Forums - View Single Post - more power from a 4bt1t/2t (http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10464&postcount=27)

[c.h.i.e.f]

well i am looking for a way to increase the power of the 4bd1 without having to turbo it . otherwise i had 3 ideas one was when i am ready to start on the county i would send the motor away to get completely refurbished and then put a turbo on it , second was to send it away and get it completely refurbished and fit a different pump on it , and last of all just try and find a original 4bd1T (nitrided cranks etc etc) and stick in it . so if anyone has any ideas wat so ever i would love to hear them .

[Dougal]

well i am looking for a way to increase the power of the 4bd1 without having to turbo it .


There isn't one. Isuzu and other engines makers tune their engines to the max available while keeping longevity and staying within emission limits.

A different pump will not help. The existing pump is currently adjusted to the outcome I mentioned above but simply turning screws will make it deliver enough fuel to make lots of black smoke, soot up your oil and melt your pistons.

There are very good reasons for the popularity of turbos.

[Blknight.aus]

take it to a diesel shop...


have them up the delivery by 1cc/500 strokes then refit your pump and respill time it.

then get the air intake cleaned up and get a set of extractors made to suit the 1800-2200 RPM range.

it'll blow black smoke to buggery but you'll get more power without the turbo.

ther'es plenty of headroom in your existing pump to mess with the fueling and if you want it direly on the cheap I can do it "farmyard" style with the whole thing in situe.. but its not good for the stater motor and your not getting a guarentee.

[c.h.i.e.f]

ok thanks for the info !
better yet does anyone know were to get a genuine 4bd1T (i heard that they were in a small quantity of range rovers at one stage) i would like to hear what people hav to say about 4bd1 compared to 4bd1 fitted with a turbo compared with a genuine 4bd1T the reason is what i hav stated before is that i currently hav a 200tdi which i love and my old man has a 300tdi but between us we hav our old 86 county which is sitting in the yard fading away , so i hav been currently been thinking about what i can do to it when the time comes to overhaul it. i was thinking about going overboard on it and making it a "very" respectable vehicle. thats why i am considering all options to do with engine, gearbox etc etc ill probably even goto the trouble of stripping paint of and painting it in new colours . so if anyone has any input i would like to hear it !

thanks...

[Blknight.aus]

how much more do you want out of the engine...?

I assume youve driven a stock 3.9 suzi to compare it to the tdi's what do you want to change...

the non turbo will take a very mild turboing with no hassles even if its a bit old.

the turbo version, well, go nuts.

[Larns]

If you intend on working it hard then get the original turbo motor. There is just no substitute for Isuzu engineers.
Turboing a non-t engine is ok, it's what I have done, but you miss out on the benifits of the turbo tuned pump and the turbo ground camshaft, along with the t-model injectors they all add up to getting the most out of this engine. The turbo will suck the usable torque from the low end, I have changed my pump and injectors over and that made a huge differance, and I'm currently waiting for my custom grind cam to be ground. From driving the original turbod engines a fair bit I can't wait to feel the differance that the new cam will make.

Doug's, that pump looks HUUUUGE, what dose that add to the weight?10-15kg:D I have to admit that that is the first time I have seen one, is it worth it? Mine is the same as the lower pump in the pic.

[c.h.i.e.f]

oh i see well yes it is just a stock 3.9 although every now and then when we were looking for parts for it things didnt quiet fit and some things underneath seemed to be beefed up a little bit we still cant tell that if it has been rolled before we got it or if it is a bit different.

well in my opinion the 300tdi and 200tdi are more user friendly and they seem to be better on the road but when i goto overhaul the isuzu i am just wondering if i should do something to the engine it has now or to goto a 4bd1T and upgrade things like steering box (3 bolt - 4 bolt) and consider different gearbox . i spose one little luxury we hav done to it is fit disco front seats in.
i know im asking alot but im going to make it my project car and i want a bit of everything (bush capability , comfort , highway , towing , and long geverty)

[Bush65]

If you intend on working it hard then get the original turbo motor. There is just no substitute for Isuzu engineers.
Turboing a non-t engine is ok, it's what I have done, but you miss out on the benifits of the turbo tuned pump and the turbo ground camshaft, along with the t-model injectors they all add up to getting the most out of this engine. The turbo will suck the usable torque from the low end, I have changed my pump and injectors over and that made a huge differance, and I'm currently waiting for my custom grind cam to be ground. From driving the original turbod engines a fair bit I can't wait to feel the differance that the new cam will make.

Doug's, that pump looks HUUUUGE, what dose that add to the weight?10-15kg:D I have to admit that that is the first time I have seen one, is it worth it? Mine is the same as the lower pump in the pic.
According to what is printed in the workshop manual IDE2140:

1. Valve open/close timing is identical for both 4BD1 and 4BD1-T. I'm skeptical about the cams being different. Turbo doesn't need more valve lift to stuff in more air, so what else beside timing would be different?

2. Injection nozzles and nozzle holders have same part no for both 4BD1 and 4BD1-T. Injection starting pressure is same for both 4BD1 and 4BD1-T. Over flow valve opening pressure is lower (18 psi vs 23 psi) is lower for the 4BD1-T.

The injection pumps have different serial no, but are basically the same. They are calibrated differently and I suspect the torque cams are different, but these are adjustments that a diesel injection shop can make. Also the automatic timing advance is different.

AFAIK, 4BD1-T's in Aus did not have the boost compensator on the injection pump as shown in Dougals pic. The boost compensator reduces the fuel/smoke as the turbo boost pressure reduces.

The nitrided crank in the 4BD1-T is slightly better for wear and to reduce formation of cracks at points of stress concentration. But how many Land Rovers with the 4BD1 (turbo'ed or not) have either of these issues?

The oil squirters (for piston cooling) give extra durability, but again, how many Land Rovers with the 4BD1 (turbo'ed or not) have any piston failures.

IMHO, if you are going out to by an engine, then get a 4BD1-T, but if you already have a 4BD1 fitted, then turbo it. As part of the turbo installation, torque the head bolts to 4BD1-T specs, adjust the maximum fuel screw on the injection pump and time the injection pump to 4BD1-T specs.

The lighter duty of our vehicles compared to Isuzu trucks makes a hell of a difference.

I wouldn't have the 4BD1 overhauled before fitting a turbo unless it was required because of wear.

Increasing fuel delivered from the injection pump, without increasing the air is worse than fitting a turbo and increasing the fuel.

[Blknight.aus]

the suzi benifits greatly from another 3-4 degrees of overlap as it improves the scavanging blow through from the turbo. the lift start times can be left as is but a sharper rise on the opening of the exhaust and a snappy close makes a fair whack of difference...

the changes to the pump youve outlined are correct they inject about 1cc more over500 strokes (in the lowest turbo spec pump) when on full tilt than the biggest non turbo pump and the rise rate on the torque plate is significantly sharper.

other than that I agree with most of your points other than the refuelling on the non turbo engines. if you leave it all stock I agree if you leave it planted and its labouring you will do bad things eventually, but if you clean up the breathing of the engine (its woeful as a standard design) then you can run a fair bit more through them. but nowhere near as much as a full boost engine...

[Dougal]

the suzi benifits greatly from another 3-4 degrees of overlap as it improves the scavanging blow through from the turbo.

That is very interesting.
I've run my 4BD1T with both boost and backpressure gauges.

On acceleration the backpressure (exhaust manifold) is often exactly double the boost (inlet manifold). So yeah 40psi transient backpressure to deliver my 20psi boost.
As the EGT's rise the turbo feeds more off the heat and the backpressure drops.

Steady state cruise at 100km/h, boost is 8-9psi, backpressure is 12-13psi, EGT's are 400-450 deg C.

Climbing a hill (slow increase in EGT's) you can watch the backpressure dropping as the EGT's rise. 600 deg C is the crossover point. At this exhaust temp at low enough revs (below 2000rpm) I have equal backpressure to boost.
20psi boost for 20 psi backpressure.

Run the EGT's higher and I get more boost than backpressure. But only if I keep the rpm down as my small exhaust (2.25") contributes backpressure at higher revs.

Of course there is a lot more happening in the individual inlet and exhaust ports than can be revealed by simply measuring the pressure. But it seems to me that almost all the time backpressure is higher than boost and scavenging isn't really possible. Zero overlap seems like a much better option for boosted engines to prevent internal EGR.

The reason my engine has a boost compensator on the fuel pump? It was a japanese import, probably sourced from a wrecked truck in Japan.

[Blknight.aus]

the secret Im told, lies in the ramping of the cams and the movement of the gasses.

I was skeptical about it being right for the same reason that you are... (I still am and Ive seen it working)

as I understand it the concept is similar to the one of using the backpressure on a 2 stroke to stall the flow of the gasses into the exhuast pipe while the fresh charge is still tyring to get into the chamber but your trying to go the other way.

you get the exhaust gasses moving out of the chamber at a rate of knots and then while they are still trying to go at a rate of knots you open up the inlet valve and the gasses there start doing their bit. in the 2 stroke this is the time you want the exhaust pulse to reflect and stall the inlet charge in the chamber. In the suzi your doing the opposite and trying to use the inlet charge to top off the pressure in the chamber to keep the speed of the exhaust gasses up and prevent them from stalling out... if a gas is flowing its exerting less pressure, its when it slows down that the pressure rises.

however......

get it wrong and it goes bad quickly and you wind up with exhaust gasses in the inlet and if your inlet is short enough and ugly enough its got the potential to stall off the turbo....

the stock cam is good, if not very good but there is that tiny little bit more to be had from it and it comes at a cost... the extra air your pushing though will help burn off any over fuelling youve got which A, makes the turbo work harder and B, will raise the EGTs like you wont believe.

anther problem I have with it is that as its working with pressure pulses to do its magic in theory it will have a "sweet" range and outside of that who knows what other problems you will get.

I also think that the extra overlap isnt so much more of traditional "overlap" but is more to do with the increase on the ramping, the valves close completely at more or less the same point but as the ramps are steeper then it appears that they have more overlap as they are open for longer...

Ive also screwd the wording of part of what I originally wrote so it might have been a little miss leading...


. the lift start times can be left as is but a sharper rise on the opening of the exhaust and a snappy close makes a fair whack of difference..

should read

The inlets lift start time can be left as is with a sharper rise with a snappier close and a slight increase on the exhausts open duration can make a fair whack of difference...


I was trying to condense about 8 lines into fewer to make it read easier got distracted and pooched it., My bad

[Bush65]

Number of cylinders, valve timing, exhaust manifold, and exhaust energy to drive the turbine, all have complex interactions that are difficult to optimise.

I have seen results (but not for our Isuzu's) from engine modeling with Ansys Multi-Physics that illustrated what is happening very well.

IMHO, with the 4BD1-T, there is more to be gained from the exhaust manifold design, than there is from altering the stock camshaft. With the stock manifold, the exhaust pressure at the turbine is much less than is available at the exhaust port (because of the crankshaft design of a 4 cylinder engine). With care it is possible to make a manifold for a 4 cylinder engine that will realise improved turbo performance, but it is difficult to get right.

[isuzurover]

According to what is printed in the workshop manual IDE2140:

1. Valve open/close timing is identical for both 4BD1 and 4BD1-T. I'm skeptical about the cams being different. Turbo doesn't need more valve lift to stuff in more air, so what else beside timing would be different?

2. Injection nozzles and nozzle holders have same part no for both 4BD1 and 4BD1-T. Injection starting pressure is same for both 4BD1 and 4BD1-T. Over flow valve opening pressure is lower (18 psi vs 23 psi) is lower for the 4BD1-T.

The injection pumps have different serial no, but are basically the same. They are calibrated differently and I suspect the torque cams are different, but these are adjustments that a diesel injection shop can make. Also the automatic timing advance is different.

AFAIK, 4BD1-T's in Aus did not have the boost compensator on the injection pump as shown in Dougals pic. The boost compensator reduces the fuel/smoke as the turbo boost pressure reduces.

The nitrided crank in the 4BD1-T is slightly better for wear and to reduce formation of cracks at points of stress concentration. But how many Land Rovers with the 4BD1 (turbo'ed or not) have either of these issues?

The oil squirters (for piston cooling) give extra durability, but again, how many Land Rovers with the 4BD1 (turbo'ed or not) have any piston failures.

IMHO, if you are going out to by an engine, then get a 4BD1-T, but if you already have a 4BD1 fitted, then turbo it. As part of the turbo installation, torque the head bolts to 4BD1-T specs, adjust the maximum fuel screw on the injection pump and time the injection pump to 4BD1-T specs.

The lighter duty of our vehicles compared to Isuzu trucks makes a hell of a difference.

I wouldn't have the 4BD1 overhauled before fitting a turbo unless it was required because of wear.

Increasing fuel delivered from the injection pump, without increasing the air is worse than fitting a turbo and increasing the fuel.

Very well said John - thanks for injecting some facts!

[Larns]

Bushie
I do agree with you on turboing the N/A engine, much of the design on the engine is specificaly aimed at trucks, but the pumps are quiet different in the aspects of timing and advance, and the nozzels on the injectors are a different spray pattern also. If you like I can dig up the part no's for the different cam and injectors.
When at Isuzu "parts" they found that the cams were different between the two engines, which I suspected, you can't say that an engine built to have a turbo would have an identical cam to a N/A engine. It's just not logical. And the reason I'm getting a "custom" grind isn't for any other reason than they are $600 clams genuine of $160 for a custom grind to turbo specs.

[isuzurover]

Bushie
I do agree with you on turboing the N/A engine, much of the design on the engine is specificaly aimed at trucks, but the pumps are quiet different in the aspects of timing and advance, and the nozzels on the injectors are a different spray pattern also. If you like I can dig up the part no's for the different cam and injectors.
When at Isuzu "parts" they found that the cams were different between the two engines, which I suspected, you can't say that an engine built to have a turbo would have an identical cam to a N/A engine. It's just not logical. And the reason I'm getting a "custom" grind isn't for any other reason than they are $600 clams genuine of $160 for a custom grind to turbo specs.

My Manuals agree with everything John has posted.

"Early" 4BD1s have some extra differences, but 1987-on 4BD1s are the same.

My Manual (N Series 4BXX 1985-on (printed Sept 1988)) concurs with what John has posted.

Valve timing (Camshaft) changed in 1986/87 for 4BD1 and 88/89 for 4BD1T, but they BOTH changed.

e.g: in 1986, both the 4BD1 AND 4BD1T had:
Intake opens at 28 deg and closes at 62 deg
Exh opens at 70 deg and closes at 28 deg

in 1989, both the 4BD1 AND 4BD1T had:
Intake opens at 19 deg and closes at 47 deg
Exh opens at 57 deg and closes at 15 deg

The injector nozzles are THE SAME between both tha NA and T models. However the T has opening pressures the same as 1986 and earlier NA models. 1987-on, the NA models had higher opening pressures.

By the sound of it, you have an early-spec engine, and someone is trying tyo sell you a later spec (cam) grind. However this has nothing to do with NA/T spec.

Please stop posting (mis)information, unless you are sure of the facts.

[Dougal]

My Manuals agree with everything John has posted.

"Early" 4BD1s have some extra differences, but 1987-on 4BD1s are the same.

My Manual (N Series 4BXX 1985-on (printed Sept 1988)) concurs with what John has posted.

Valve timing (Camshaft) changed in 1986/87 for 4BD1 and 88/89 for 4BD1T, but they BOTH changed.

e.g: in 1986, both the 4BD1 AND 4BD1T had:
Intake opens at 28 deg and closes at 62 deg
Exh opens at 70 deg and closes at 28 deg

in 1989, both the 4BD1 AND 4BD1T had:
Intake opens at 19 deg and closes at 47 deg
Exh opens at 57 deg and closes at 15 deg

The injector nozzles are THE SAME between both tha NA and T models. However the T has opening pressures the same as 1986 and earlier NA models. 1987-on, the NA models had higher opening pressures.

By the sound of it, you have an early-spec engine, and someone is trying tyo sell you a later spec (cam) grind. However this has nothing to do with NA/T spec.

Please stop posting (mis)information, unless you are sure of the facts.

So what differences do the advanced cam timing make to the operation of the later engine?
I'm thinking it'd bias it more towards high speed operation than the earlier cam, but I'm just guessing.

Zero overlap with both cams?

[Larns]

My Manuals agree with everything John has posted.

"Early" 4BD1s have some extra differences, but 1987-on 4BD1s are the same.

My Manual (N Series 4BXX 1985-on (printed Sept 1988)) concurs with what John has posted.

Valve timing (Camshaft) changed in 1986/87 for 4BD1 and 88/89 for 4BD1T, but they BOTH changed.

e.g: in 1986, both the 4BD1 AND 4BD1T had:
Intake opens at 28 deg and closes at 62 deg
Exh opens at 70 deg and closes at 28 deg

in 1989, both the 4BD1 AND 4BD1T had:
Intake opens at 19 deg and closes at 47 deg
Exh opens at 57 deg and closes at 15 deg

The injector nozzles are THE SAME between both tha NA and T models. However the T has opening pressures the same as 1986 and earlier NA models. 1987-on, the NA models had higher opening pressures.

By the sound of it, you have an early-spec engine, and someone is trying tyo sell you a later spec (cam) grind. However this has nothing to do with NA/T spec.

Please stop posting (mis)information, unless you are sure of the facts.

That's interesting, are you insinuating that I'm purposfully posting "(mis)information". And for what gains??

Mate I'm the first person to admit I don't know all there is about these engines. No one here dose, and if you had simply shared your information on the date change of camshafts configurations earlier then there wouldn't be a problem with "mis-information" would there.

But like you I have my information from a manual also, it may not be 100% correct but it was last published in 2000 and it clearly has different Pt No's for the above mentioned parts, maybe it lists the early cam for the NA and the later date cam for the T-model, who knows, but what I do know is I don't apprectite being called a liar on an open forum. I wouldn't have offered the Pt No's if they didn't exist

And it also dosn't look good on you when you publish cam spec's that are clearly incorrect. If you walked into a engine machine shop with the spec's you listed above they would laugh at you. No engine would run with an intake duration of 34' and an exhaust of 318' and 28'-318' respectivly, I sure as hell wouldn't have one in my engine. Yet you accuse me of msinformation and ensuring that the "facts are right".

[isuzurover]

Larns - Sorry if I came across as rude, wasn't intended. It was late at night and I was doing some annoying work... I haven't seen any cam PN's that you have posted???

Those cam specs were from my (genuine) manual. Although I was tired I am sure they are as printed (but will check tonight). Can anyone else confirm? I am not such an anorak that I always have it in front of me.

Btw - for the record, I have driven both genuine and aftermarket 4BD1Ts. IME a properly set up aftermarket conversion drives as well or better. There is a lot of room for improvement over the original design. e.g:
Intercooling
Better intake and exhaust routing/flow (as John said - better manifold(s)).
etc.



So what differences do the advanced cam timing make to the operation of the later engine?
I'm thinking it'd bias it more towards high speed operation than the earlier cam, but I'm just guessing.

Zero overlap with both cams?

Not Sure. I suspect all the 4BD1s and T's I have driven were the early model. Although mine is an '87, I have heard that LR bought the engines in a "job lot", so they likely all have the early cam (especially as sales nosedived from 1986-on).

The army bought a batch of new perenties in the early 90's, so would be interesting to know what they have - Dave???

The later model NPR trucks do seem to rev better.

[Blknight.aus]

The army bought a batch of new perenties in the early 90's, so would be interesting to know what they have - Dave???

The later model NPR trucks do seem to rev better.



getting the cam profile will prove interesting... I'll dig through the deeper level stuff for you but I think it will just provide a part number for a stock replacement cam for either the turbo or the NA

[isuzurover]

getting the cam profile will prove interesting... I'll dig through the deeper level stuff for you but I think it will just provide a part number for a stock replacement cam for either the turbo or the NA

Surely you can do better Dave - remove the radiator hoses from 1 new and 1 old perentie, then find a couple of grunts stupid enough to drive them - like last time...

Voila - a couple of cams to compare!!!

[Blknight.aus]

they are pefectly capable of generating enough work for me without me goading them into the ludicrously stupid...


besides there is a reason I am in the defence force...


Im lazy remember...

for instance tomorrow I have to go sleep under a tree for about 6 hours to wait my turn to chuck 23 or 43 bullets downrange (depends on if I decide to take the first lot seriously or If I want a yipee shoot)

[Larns]

Larns - Sorry if I came across as rude, wasn't intended. It was late at night and I was doing some annoying work... I haven't seen any cam PN's that you have posted???

Those cam specs were from my (genuine) manual. Although I was tired I am sure they are as printed (but will check tonight). Can anyone else confirm? I am not such an anorak that I always have it in front of me.

Btw - for the record, I have driven both genuine and aftermarket 4BD1Ts. IME a properly set up aftermarket conversion drives as well or better. There is a lot of room for improvement over the original design. e.g:
Intercooling
Better intake and exhaust routing/flow (as John said - better manifold(s)).
etc.


Mate, appoligy accepted.(I know I can't spell)

I saw the time on your post, and it was late.

I agree about the aftermarket turbo'd engines, as I've driven alot of the 4BD1-T's with the non-gated turbo and they leave much to be desired, like mine, but one thing they do do better is idle and are smoother through the rev range.

I havn't posted the Pt No's but here they are for all that are interested

Cam N/A engine-5125110810
Injector tip N/A- 8941548640

Cam Turbo - 8970145731
Injector tip T-5153110200

I have ordered the different tips and they are on my engine, they made a differance in the 800-1500rpm range, much less soot under acceleration.
the cam are both available through Isuzu but are very exy.

:twobeers:

[Bush65]

The information that I posted was taken from the source that I stated in the post.

I'm not surprised by small changes over different years. Also I am not surprised by mis-prints in documentation.

In the case of a slow revving diesel like the 4BD1/4BD1-T, it is quite logical to use the same camshaft for the N/A and turbo versions. With high revving petrol engine, then there is a lot to be gained by reducing the valve overlap when a turbo is fitted.

The angles quoted for valve opening and closing have been interpreted incorrectly to get the duration.

It was not made clear that the angle for inlet opening is BTDC, for inlet closing it is ABDC, so duration is greater than 180* (not less). For exhaust valve opening it is BBDC and closing is ATDC.

Thanks for the information about changes to camshaft and injectors in the later engines.

[isuzurover]

The angles quoted for valve opening and closing have been interpreted incorrectly to get the duration.

It was not made clear that the angle for inlet opening is BTDC, for inlet closing it is ABDC, so duration is greater than 180* (not less). For exhaust valve opening it is BBDC and closing is ATDC.



Thanks John - was just about to post the same - I missed that in my first post.

To add to what I posted previously, the NA camshaft changed in '86/'87 and the T camshaft changed in '88/'89. But they BOTH changed from spec A to Spec B in my previous post.

This would suggest that they originally designed the cam to improve the NA model, then tried it on the turbo???

Lars - according to my info on Nozzles - ALL T's had an opening pressure of 185 kg/cm2. NA models had injectors with the same opening pressure until '86/'87, when it changed to 220 kg/cm2. Maybe for emissions reasons??? At the same time, the pressure adjustment changed from screw-adjusted to shim-adjusted.

Do you know the opening pressures of the two nozzle PN's you posted?

[Dougal]

I have a box here with my old 4BD1T (86 JDM engine) injector nozzles. Anyone got some NA nozzles to dig out and take photos of?

[isuzurover]

One last bit of info from the manual - pump timing settings:

EARLY CAM
13 / 10 deg (NA/T)

LATE CAM
16 / 15 deg (NA/T)

[Larns]

Interesting on the pump timing adjustment.

Even though my manual was republished in 2000 I think it's aimed only at the Isuzu's in the LR time line, also all calibration fig's are in imperial.

Looked at my maunal at work this morning, the figures it gives for adjustments to both types of injectors were the same 2630PSI, unsure what that is in kg/cm2.
Is it possible to recalibrate the injectors up to the higher injection pressures, did the injectors change compleatly over this time line? anyone?
I suspect your on the money about the emissions and the higher crack pressures. Only a guess, but I imagine that is has part to do with the reason of advancing the pump timing as well.

[Blknight.aus]

nope you can adjust them right the way up till they burst the union fitting if you want to..

higher injection pressure generally equals a better atomisation which means a cleaner burn...

[Dougal]

nope you can adjust them right the way up till they burst the union fitting if you want to..

higher injection pressure generally equals a better atomisation which means a cleaner burn...

Do you need to pack them with shims or is there something in there to adjust?

[isuzurover]

Looked at my maunal at work this morning, the figures it gives for adjustments to both types of injectors were the same 2630PSI, unsure what that is in kg/cm2.

2630 psi = 185 kg.cm-2

I wouldn't bother adjusting the injector pressures, since the T models stayed the same.



Do you need to pack them with shims or is there something in there to adjust?



...according to my info on Nozzles - ALL T's had an opening pressure of 185 kg/cm2. NA models had injectors with the same opening pressure until '86/'87, when it changed to 220 kg/cm2. Maybe for emissions reasons??? At the same time, the pressure adjustment changed from screw-adjusted to shim-adjusted.


As above - if you have anything other than a late model NA engine, it should have screw-adjusted nozzles.

[Bush65]

With regard to having a diesel camshaft ground to a different profile, be very careful of valve to piston clearance at TDC.

This is one reason small diesels (automotive types) don't have a very large valve overlap/duration. Some extend the duration by having a cam profile that opens the valve earlier then move it toward the closed position at tdc. I don't know if this is common knowledge at shops that grind camshafts.

[garryseries3]

2630 psi = 185 kg.cm-2

I wouldn't bother adjusting the injector pressures, since the T models stayed the same.
As above - if you have anything other than a late model NA engine, it should have screw-adjusted nozzles.If you were wanting to turbo a 1990 4BD1 is it worth changing the injectors over to the earlier type screw adjusted nozzles.

Over flow valve opening pressure is lower (18 psi vs 23 psi) is lower for the 4BD1-T.
Is it worth lowering the opening valve pressure on my motor , by the way I am putting a VGT turbo Garrett (2256V?) and if so what do I require to do it.

Garry

[Bush65]

If you were wanting to turbo a 1990 4BD1 is it worth changing the injectors over to the earlier type screw adjusted nozzles.

Over flow valve opening pressure is lower (18 psi vs 23 psi) is lower for the 4BD1-T.
Is it worth lowering the opening valve pressure on my motor , by the way I am putting a VGT turbo Garrett (2256V?) and if so what do I require to do it.

Garry
I know on a 300Tdi the GT2256V turbo can give about 22 psi boost. I would be interested in hearing how this turbo performs on a 4BD1. It should perform well in the lower rev range where you probably spend most time.

Given a choice, I would like a larger compressor impeller than 56mm for better performance from the higher range of a 4BD1T.

You will probably want an exhaust manifold from a 4BD1T or 4BD2T and an adaptor T2 to what is on your turbo - some info on the manifold in Isuzurover's thread from when he turbo'd his 4BD1.

With turbo upgrades, the air density in the cylinder is greater when the fuel is injected, so higher injection pressure can help the spray pattern. The screw adjustment does make pressure adjustment easier than changing shims, but I doubt there would be a cost benefit when the cost of new injector bodies is factored in.

I'm sure you know to increase fuel rate for more power and watch the EGT.

Edit, also needed are oil pressure and drain lines. From memory there would be info in the above mentioned thread from Isuzurover.

[isuzurover]

The screw adjustment does make pressure adjustment easier than changing shims, but I doubt there would be a cost benefit when the cost of new injector bodies is factored in.

But if you have two engines it might be worth getting the pressures reset on the old type and swapping them over?

Btw - here is a link to the thread John mentioned:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/63176-budget-4bd1-turbo-install.html

[garryseries3]

I know on a 300Tdi the GT2256V turbo can give about 22 psi boost. I would be interested in hearing how this turbo performs on a 4BD1. It should perform well in the lower rev range where you probably spend most time.

Given a choice, I would like a larger compressor impeller than 56mm for better performance from the higher range of a 4BD1T.

You will probably want an exhaust manifold from a 4BD1T or 4BD2T and an adaptor T2 to what is on your turbo - some info on the manifold in Isuzurover's thread from when he turbo'd his 4BD1.

With turbo upgrades, the air density in the cylinder is greater when the fuel is injected, so higher injection pressure can help the spray pattern. The screw adjustment does make pressure adjustment easier than changing shims, but I doubt there would be a cost benefit when the cost of new injector bodies is factored in.

I'm sure you know to increase fuel rate for more power and watch the EGT.

Edit, also needed are oil pressure and drain lines. From memory there would be info in the above mentioned thread from Isuzurover.

Yes Isuzurover thread is a great read as is Rijidig's thread, have made up the adaptor to a ex army turbo manifold here is a pic from my thread.http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/garryseries3/ISUZUPICTURES038.jpg

The turbo has come from BMW 3.0L diesel engine,I have angled it to point behind the hump so as to allow a bit more clearance.
regards Garry

[garryseries3]

[QUOTE=Larns;800867]If you intend on working it hard then get the original turbo motor. There is just no substitute for Isuzu engineers.
Turboing a non-t engine is ok, it's what I have done, but you miss out on the benifits of the turbo tuned pump and the turbo ground camshaft, along with the t-model injectors they all add up to getting the most out of this engine. The turbo will suck the usable torque from the low end, I have changed my pump and injectors over and that made a huge differance, and I'm currently waiting for my custom grind cam to be ground. From driving the original turbod engines a fair bit I can't wait to feel the differance that the new cam will make.

Larns did you get a standard cam grind for the turbo motor if not what specs is it and what application was it intended for.
regards
Garry

[landrover dave]

[QUOTE=Larns;800867]If you intend on working it hard then get the original turbo motor. There is just no substitute for Isuzu engineers.
Turboing a non-t engine is ok, it's what I have done, but you miss out on the benifits of the turbo tuned pump and the turbo ground camshaft, along with the t-model injectors they all add up to getting the most out of this engine. The turbo will suck the usable torque from the low end, I have changed my pump and injectors over and that made a huge differance, and I'm currently waiting for my custom grind cam to be ground. From driving the original turbod engines a fair bit I can't wait to feel the differance that the new cam will make.

Larns did you get a standard cam grind for the turbo motor if not what specs is it and what application was it intended for.
regards
Garry
Hi Garry I have a factory Isuzu workshop man for the truck motor if you want to look give me a buzz, Cheers Dave

[garryseries3]

[quote=garryseries3;1356135]
Hi Garry I have a factory Isuzu workshop man for the truck motor if you want to look give me a buzz, Cheers Dave

Hi Dave
could you PM your number and I give you a call over the weekend if your around.
regards
Garry