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Remy
20th August 2008, 10:22 PM
Hi,

I have a 1992 manual discovery on gas, 2 inch lift, mud tyres etc (good ol girl) but getting tired.
I am thinking about swapping over to a P38 1996-1999? as i do more road driving than off road and the rest of the family likes the leather push button options (ok i like them too).

That said i still want to be able to get offroad but i don't know enough about the P38 abilities and besides "yeah they are ok" i haven't seen much comment on the forums. The discovery will go almost anywhere. What are the limitations of the P38?

Most of my 4WD work is bush tracks, steep rocky climbs and some limited sand and mud work. I think the P38 could handle this but would like those who know to comment. What sort of upgrades will bring it closer to the disco.

I can probably pick up a later model petrol or diesel discovery with leather for less than a P38 but i am a bit spell bound at the moment. Don't let me near a sales person:angel: and remind me of this post when the electrics start to fail.
Thanks in advance!

justinc
20th August 2008, 10:35 PM
A set of mudders on a P38 and you won't look back. The later ones have 4wheel traction control, and with the EAS set at max height you'll eat the disco for breakfast offroad.

They are big and heavy though, but simply amazing where they'll go!

(Don't get me started on the electronics though:()

JC

Remy
20th August 2008, 11:00 PM
Thanks Justinc.

Now i am getting more interested although agreed the electrics do worry me.

I will start to check the forums for the major faults but again if someone wants to let me know what to watch out for when buying a second hand RR that would be great.

Remy
20th August 2008, 11:01 PM
Which year 1995 -1999 is best and why?

Scouse
21st August 2008, 08:05 AM
1995 - 1998 are much the same.
1999 saw the introduction of the Bosch EMS which improved the engine performance somewhat, especially down low.


The electrics aren't really a big issue.
Most cars would have had the upgrades done to the A/C by now & the EAS isn't a problem when repaired by someone who knows what they're doing.

81stubee
21st August 2008, 08:48 AM
Do you do maintenance yourself or have a good LR Independant Garage?
Are you computer literate?
Are you willing to fix things at the first sign of trouble?
Are you willing to drive the best 4X4XFar?

If you answer yes to all these questions then go the P38. I've had mine now for 3months, and just love getting in and going for a long drive, they are really like driving an armchair.

1995 - 1999.5 - GEMS (LUCAS) fuel management, which was very advanced for its time, 2 Wheel Traction Control on HSE's, Easily identifiable by the large square plenum cover with 4.0 or 4.6 stamped on it.

1999.5 - 2002 - BOSCH fuel mangement, More low down torque with better economy, CAN Networking was incorporated to some systems, 4 Wheel ETC, Upgraded Trims more plusher than ever. Don't be fooled the only electrical change here was the Engine ECU and some wiring, still uses the same BeCM. There were more upgrades, but these were the major ones. Easily Identifiable by the "rib-cage" plenum chamber. This motor was also a little harder to work on.


Electronics - The biggest problem electrically is the BeCM, a computer that sits under the drivers seat, and basically controls everything from sending the immobilise code to the Engine ECU, to stopping a window closing if something (say an arm) gets jammed. The actual electronic part is OK, what tends to happen is people don't notice the leaking heater core pipes, and the water leaks down into the drivers foot well too make a nice steamy sauna for the BeCM :eek:. As long as you keep a good batery and alternator you should be right.

EAS - The suspension in the P38 is awesome when its working. I can put ski's on my roof, hit the button and crawl under a 1.9m Carpark. Using a cable and plug from Jaycar, an old PDA, a soldering iron and some free software I can now fix/calbirate/reset my EAS whereever I am, all for ~$20. Once again you just need to keep on top of the trouble signs.

Problems I have had:
Suspected Cracked block :mad:(needs new motor, looking at a Gen III 5.7 conversion:angel::angel:)
Heater O-Rings
Broken Shock-Absorber
Suspect Gearbox is on the way
Ummmm Thats it for the moment

Considering the car has done 260000k's and most previous owners used it for towing, I don't think I can complain.

Check out Range Rovers (http://www.rangerovers.net) forum which has everything on the P38 you can imagine.

As somebody once said:

"Ownership of a RR is like dating a Super Hot Super Model.

She drives you insane with her insecurities, but every time she steps out the shower, you forget about them.

She makes you want to throw her off a balcony with her never ending nagging about inane things, but you forgive her because you feel like a God amongst men when you and her show up to events and you are the envy of every man.

She can beat the crap out of any other girl when it comes to getting the last Prada bag on sale at Barney's, but heaven forbid there is a spider in the kitchen - she yells for you like the Mummy just came for her; yet you forgive her because when she holds you tightly in fear, it all makes sense again.

Being with her is exciting because you never know what each morning or day with her brings.

That gentlemen is why we date.... opps... I mean drive these cars! :twisted:"

I still go to the kitchen window to have a perv into the garage. A RR look good anywhere. Mine will cost me money, but there is no-way she is going anywhere.

Hope this helps

Stu

adm333
21st August 2008, 10:21 AM
Well Stu has wrapped it all up.

Nothing I can add to that.

Except maybe to comment on the standard sound system in the HSE. I have yet to come across a vehicle with a better sounding system (as standard of course).

Dave

Remy
21st August 2008, 05:42 PM
I will now start looking a little harder. The one i was interested in got sold - damn for sitting on the fence.

Oh well another will come along.

Yes to most of the things you raised.

What about 4.0 V 4.6?

Cheers,
Remy

dar373
21st August 2008, 06:51 PM
as for your question there isnt a standard 4x4 made that can match a range rover off road period full stop...simply the best....but im biased..lol

81stubee
21st August 2008, 07:15 PM
Agreed and Yeah, Dave's right about the HSE's sound system, "Awesome" I can't hear it distort before my ears hit the pain barrier:D:D

Once again best to look at the range rover forum, but:

4.0 vs 4.6

4.0lt Was in the base model and SE, Same size motor as that used in the 3.9 Series I Disco, but with different Engine Management, and some different components, ie no distibutor, later type oil pump etc. The 4.0lt was also upgraded in 99 to the bosch plenum chamber and ECU

4.6 was fitted to HSE's (Top Model) With all the extra fruit, like ETC, Electric Memory seats, Harmon Kardon Sound (11 speakers - awsome) etc...

Where are you located? Speak to a good Landrover Mechanic, I can give you a list if your in Victoria.

Watch out for engines that show ANY signs of overheating. By the time the P38 motors were made the moulds and tooling used were quite old technology with fairly high tollerances. This combined with enlarging the bore to 94mm and landrover's excellent QA processes, meant that some blocks had a "Core Shift". The walls of the Alluminium cylinders were very thin around the water jacket. All Blocks were graded into Red/Yellow/Blue. Red I think had the thickest walls and were made into 4.6's, Yellow were Graded OK for 4.6 but generally used for 4.0lt while blue were usually destroyed. Colours might be the other way round but I think thats the way it worked.

What happens when they overheat is that the block cracks in that thin walled section and coolant escapes into the cylinder.

Stu

big guy
21st August 2008, 07:15 PM
Buy a cheap 96 model for 5k and spend 10-12k on it to get it the way you want and than you know whats been done.
Get a 2000-02 with perfect record.
watch for slipped liners though, common on 4.6model.
The 4l is basically same just smaller and usually in more basic model with less electrics to go wrong.

I had a 97 and 2001 model.

With street cred tyres and stock everything it went everywhere my best mates disco with everything went.

They are just so amazing the biggest problem is that you are so insulated from the enviroment and the suspension doing such an amazing job that before you know it you are way too deep in trouble as in the bush or off road.

They are wicked but put 2-4k per year away for parts and service costs.



Best of luck.

81stubee
21st August 2008, 07:27 PM
Sorry, I never answered your original question.

There's a couple of vids on you tube of p38's off road.

If your into hard core 4X4ing then a Disco I or II is the better choice, not so much because of the capability, but because of the aftermarket accessories available. I haven't done any wheeling yet, but am quite confident that with ETC it will out do my disco. One thing is for sure, it will NEVER go through the kind of mud the Disco did:o

Stu

Remy
21st August 2008, 08:02 PM
Thanks again Stu.

I am going to look for a 4.6 HSE.

Given the jump in price after 1999 (from what i have seen around) i will probably stick to 95-98 models and fore go the more advance bosh fuel mgt and 4 wheel ETC.

There is a bit about the forum on gas so i need to read up if i can use the disco gas in the RR. That would be swet as i only put it in 12 months ago and i could get another rebate.

Live NSW Wagga.

My local mechanic did his apprenticeship (a while ago on LR/RR) has given me a hard time about the disco and smiles when i drop it to him. Was nervous to mention the RR but was surprised at his reaction - excellent car! Maybe because if something big does happen $$$ but i think he was genuine.

Anyway appreciate the info.

big guy
21st August 2008, 08:09 PM
The rebate is only available for one conversion every 3 years.
You can put car in wifes name like I did though.

The reason the 99 onwards cars are worth more is cause they are said to be better.
Less lucas or prince of darkness gear.

They drive differetly. Sounds quirky but its true.

If you do high mileage. get a 4.0l SE model.
Less to go wrong, easier to fix and not much slower.

Remy
21st August 2008, 08:20 PM
Thanks Big Guy

Yep plan was for the wifes name. The gas guy said i would make about $800 on the change over but at the time we were talking into a later model disco.

I will have to see how different the system from the disco to the RR.

All i know about it is three scubas in the back and i presume vapour direct into the inlet manifold or at least that is where the gas pipe attaches (more research).

Why better ( what do you mean by "Less lucas or prince of darkness gear") engine management better?

"They drive differently. Sounds quirky but its true." For the better??????

I want to tow so i think the 4.6 is better. The specs i have read suggest that the 4.6HSE gets better km-age????

Cheers,
Remy

Remy
21st August 2008, 08:27 PM
Hey Stu,

I will have to get the details of "Using a cable and plug from Jaycar, an old PDA, a soldering iron and some free software I can now fix/calbirate/reset my EAS whereever I am" if you are willing to share or have you already somewher in the forum?

big guy
21st August 2008, 08:29 PM
Lucas has long been named the prince of darkness.
they just seem to have gremlins and die for no apparent reason.
Some mornings turn the key and all is good, next morning no radio and only one window winds. Next day all good again.
Part of the land Rover driving experience.

The later model 99onwards hse just seems much more alive, tight and interior is upgraded.
Save a little more $ and give someone on carsales an offer that is low so long as they had the car on there for a while so not to offend them.
Try both and see for yourself.

Watch for slipped liners, more common than I thought till i bought one and had to spend money.

tasi devil
21st August 2008, 08:42 PM
did they come only with auto g/box ?, and are snorkels available for them ?

...........tasi

big guy
21st August 2008, 08:44 PM
Yes & Yes

tasi devil
21st August 2008, 08:47 PM
Yes & Yes

yes ...umm any better to use off road than manual
yes ...you bewty
and thanks big fella :)

........tasi

big guy
21st August 2008, 09:04 PM
That model is was fair and square aimed at the upper market.
Cost over 100k new.
not many were ever taken off the bitumen.

Watch out for tyre size too.
they are wide and usually low profile, does not really suit off road use and can be expensive like $450 on each corner..

rover did not really have a manual transmission that could handle that much power at the time.
The t95 maybe but its a truck box and only 4 speed and the r380 was in disco but really only made to take 380nm of torque and from what I hear they can do it but depending on the drivern not for long.
The auto box is great and keep up the servicing and she be fine.
watch the electrics, Am I harping on?

Lucas drives me mad.

Remy
21st August 2008, 09:04 PM
Hi Big Guy,

How to tell slipped liners - milky oil???

Remy
21st August 2008, 09:08 PM
OK - what do you think is a fair price for a 99 4.6 HSE less than 180,000km
In good cond
In average cond

.....
And how low to go?

adm333
21st August 2008, 09:20 PM
16K --> 20K

My Dad has a 2001 HSE with the Bosch EMS and I have the 97 with GEMS.

I know what everyone says about reliability etc etc, but there is a noticible difference driving one over the pther and I prefer the GEMS - its more of a rumbly V8.

I would go for as late as possible 98/99 before the change over.

And definitely an HSE. An SE is like having the cake but with no cream or icing.

RickP38
21st August 2008, 09:54 PM
I have a 2001 HSE, I threw some Coopers tyres on it and now, standard it can go anywhere and do anything my mates 100 Series Landcruiser with all the mods under the sun!! Traction control takes a bit to get used to though.. you kind of point it in the right direction put your foot on the accelerator and let it do its thing... It is tuff though finding aftermarket stuff for them eg Bullbar and tyre carrier and when you do find them (on this site) they're not cheap!!

Rick

Remy
21st August 2008, 10:43 PM
Hey ADM333,
Has your GEMS given you trouble are they right?

Scouse
22nd August 2008, 09:09 AM
are snorkels available for them ?




Yes Really ?
I'd be interested in some details :).

81stubee
22nd August 2008, 10:05 AM
For a 99-02 Bosch HSE in Excellent Condition < 200k would offer 14-15
For a 98 GEMS HSE in Excellent Condition < 200k would offer 12-13

Both GEMS and Bosch motors had the same liner/block problem, so its not worth taking a risk paying to much. If either has new motor + 3g. Look suspiciously at new radiators/hoses, might be covering up a liner prob, like mine.

I paid 13000 for my 97, body was immaculate full service history, never been offroad, always serviced by the same mechanic, I was quite happy with this amount but the owner did a shifty and put bars leaks in it, b4 fleaing the country. Looks like I have a cracked block:angrylock::angrylock:.

IMHO the main problem with these cars was LR's appalling build quality, thats why when BMW tightened the ship up the later ones were supposedly better. The only parts made by Lucas is the GEMS ECU, BeCm, and the EAS. The rest of its made my valeo (french). I really don't think they are that bad. In 1995 when these things came out it was a bold step by LR to control everything by one computer. They have their own version of a computer network, with a data link to each front door, cluster, Gear Lever, Power window switches etc... For example in the disco, each power window switch has an 8 way plug, Times that by 4 and you have 36 reasonable size wires going to the window switches, the P38 has 8 tiny wires, and it also controls the sunroof and mirrors. Now days there are many smaller ECU's connected by one network called CAN.

Tasi Devil - The auto would be quite good off road as it has a manual function in low range. It will select any gear you say and stay in that. It also locks up the torque converter clutch for maximum engine breaking.

Remy - EAS Tools SourceForge.net: Range Rover - EAS - Reset (http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/EASunlock) instructions are in the readme file for the cable. No definitive way to differentiate a liner/block problem from a head-gasket without stripping the motor.

Symptoms -
Hard Hoses (pressurised)
Hard Hoses pressurised in the morning (air escapes when removing cap)
Misfire after hot Shutdown
Slow Coolant Loss
Test for exhaust gases in the Expansion tank

Stu

Scouse
22nd August 2008, 10:13 AM
How to tell slipped liners - milky oil???The first symptom is usually a misfire on cold starts when the coolant leaks into that cylinder.

Then you'll notice coolant loss & wonder where it's going.

adm333
22nd August 2008, 10:43 AM
Hey ADM333,
Has your GEMS given you trouble are they right?

No, <touch wood> mine has been OK.

It has now done 175K, I have done 20K in the last year, and has been fine.

Mine is also on LPG, which works well and keeps the cost down.

Dave

p38arover
22nd August 2008, 04:58 PM
I paid 13000 for my 97, body was immaculate full service history, never been offroad, always serviced by the same mechanic, I was quite happy with this amount but the owner did a shifty and put bars leaks in it, b4 fleaing the country. Looks like I have a cracked block:angrylock::angrylock:.u

You don't know if it was him or the company who sold it to him.

Remy
22nd August 2008, 05:18 PM
Thanks all - some excellent info for me to look at before i buy.

cheers,

Remy

81stubee
22nd August 2008, 05:25 PM
If that was the case, why didn't he just tell me? If you know something I don't, tell me. I think I've been very fair and have kept this very quiet.

I think i've given them more than enough time to let me know what happened. Forgetting about the car person X was a very nice person and I was looking forward to keeping in contact. I was willing to forgive and forget, I even rang and said just let me know what happened and I will let it go, but I recieved no such response.:mad:

I doubt that a reputable high end mechanic would risk their entire business by putting bars leaks in a car. If they did well...:nazilock:

My wife and I are dissappointed by the whole thing, maybe he did get screwed himself, whats done is done. And I apologise if i've offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention :ehand:

p38arover
22nd August 2008, 06:06 PM
If that was the case, why didn't he just tell me? If you know something I don't, tell me. I think I've been very fair and have kept this very quiet.

No, unfortunately, I don't know any more than you. I agree you have kept it quiet and that is commendable. You must have been seething!

I recall that shortly after you bought (during a phone call we had) you mentioned the appearance of the coolant. I also remember suggesting it sounded like Bars Leaks. But I have no idea who put it into the cooling system. I have heard a few bad reports about the people who owned it before your seller but I suspect all businesses get bad comments at some time.

I feel bad in that I said the car looked pretty good and that this may have influenced your purchase.

big guy
22nd August 2008, 07:35 PM
Just one question, how can a slipped liner have water leaking through.
there is not one point in that the liner is in contact with water!
thats from what i have been told and have seen.

Correct me if I am wrong please.

I just sold my 93 RRC for a fair sum and that is loosing coolant but there is now way I did a fiddle job, even told the bloke it was loosing but never thought much more.

My advise still is buy very cheap and spend the money doing up so you know exactly what you are getting.

p38arover
22nd August 2008, 07:39 PM
Just one question, how can a slipped liner have water leaking through.
there is not one point in that the liner is in contact with water!
thats from what i have been told and have seen.


The block cracks behind the liner. The liner moves and becomes loose when hot. Water come in via the crack and up between the block and the liner. As per Des Hammill's book on the Rvoer V8

big guy
22nd August 2008, 07:53 PM
Hmmm

that could happen, yes.

Not seen it but have heard of it.

Well, I just hope this mans P38 is gonna be a beauty.
There is a white 01 HSE still there from adelaide which i know is in great cond.
Its on car sales.com and its been for sale for ages.
They want 31k, make him an offer.

Best of luck