Ls1 P38 Engine Conversion

[81stubee]

Once I get back from NZ in November, I'm going to need to do something with my 4.6. $2000 to rebuild the Short Motor, plus other bits and pieces probably end up close to $4000. So i'm back to the Idea of a Gen III 5.7 or Gen IV 6.0 out of a commodore ($4900 new), They're very cheap for the power you can get out, and have been done to Classic Range's, my mechanic has one at the moment. Plus as someone has already mentioned they are a much more modern engine and the PCM would be much more refined as it was designed roughly 8 years after GEMS. This may be just a pipe dream, but want to talk it out. It may all get put in the too hard basket, but at least there will be a thread that other people can look up, and find out why i didn't do it.

Problems I can see:

On an early P38 should be relatively easy to communicate to the BeCM (assuming no Immobiliser) as the ECM communicates by Hard Wired signals. Only problem here would be Converting Digital I/O's to different format, can be done. Later Bosch P38's communicate using CAN so these would be harder, I think.

Transmission - Would a rebuilt ZF 4HP24E handle the extra power say 300HP? I've read somewhere that they were fitted to the V12 BMW's. I would rather stick to the ZF as opposed to a 4L80E as installation would be easier.

Physical Installation shouldn't be too bad, as you can get adaptors to fit the ZF to the Gen III. Wondering what the engine mounts are like compared with the Classic.

Diffs/Axles - Can they be beefed up??? I already have the 4 pin diff on the rear, would they handle this power?

Transfer - Will the BW Transfer and Viscous take the power?

Cooling - I guess you could make the radiator into a tripple core

I'm trying to get hold of a Holden Workshop Manual to figure out how the PCM interfaces and what it controls.

Reason - I don't wan't to spend $5000 to fix the 4.6, when I could spend an extra $2K and get a heap more POWER :twisted: and better fuel economy. I really think the biggest problem is interfacing the electronics.

What problems haven't i thought of that could be encountered. Do you think a new 4.6 would be just as good?

Stu

[p38arover]

I wonder if you can buy some of the stuff you'll need from this mob: index (http://ls1-power.com/)


So what is involved?
Standard conversion
5.7 LS spec engine.
Custom bellhousing and torque convertor mountings
Bespoke engine mounts
Exhaust interface to standard RR exhaust.
Upgrade fuel delivery system
Relocation of standard ancillaries (Aircon, PAS)
Supply of new alternator and wiring
Modification of looms
Custom programming of GEMS engine management.
Airbox modifications and silicon intake hose
Electric fan and adjustable controller

[sclarke]

Baby Stu....
Go for it... your a smart fella and your electronics knowledge will work it out...

as for answering your question... Hell knows....

Clarkie.

BTW.... ring neil....he wants a chat..

[big guy]

Are you gonna rego here in australia?

I do believe in SA, you are not allowed to exceed 5l.
Other states may be similar.
I myself have gone that path and thats what my mechanic told me.

He also told me to look at a lexus v8.
They are bullet proof so he says and smooth and cheap.

Get your existing 4.6 built to a big bore job to say 5.2 from TRS.

Just a thought.

Great idea though.

[p38arover]

He also told me to look at a lexus v8.
They are bullet proof so he says and smooth and cheap.

Where does the torque come in? You don't want it up the rev band. I agree, they appear like a great engine and can be had at a reasonable price with a half clip.

[abaddonxi]

Seen this thread?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/56655-engine-swap-td5-90-ls1-6-a.html

Cheers
Simon

[Utemad]

Sounds good if you get it done. Since it has been done before at least you know it is physically possible.

However didn't you get the P38 as the Disco was going to cost too much to fix? :(
$7k will get you another Disco.

[Vern]

There was a mob in England i think that do this conversion in a P38 and piggy back the computer or something like that. I think i saw it on RangeRovers. net or LR4x4. I emailed the guy but never got a reply.:(

[p38arover]

There was a mob in England i think that do this conversion in a P38 and piggy back the computer or something like that. I think i saw it on RangeRovers. net or LR4x4. I emailed the guy but never got a reply.:(


See my link above.

[Vern]

:oops2:

[81stubee]

"However didn't you get the P38 as the Disco was going to cost too much to fix?"

Yeah, whats your point!:tease: Disco was going to cost a lot, and still wouldn't do the things we wanted. We've comfortably taken 5 Adults to the snow with gear 3 times, went camping and much easier to fit stuff in. Besides I always wanted a P38. I feel the car suits us better than the disco did. Rightio back to the task.

Marks's make the adaptors to mate chev to ZF ~$600. Engine mounts can't be hugely different from the ones they make for the classic (frame width is the same) only concerned about the drop, as the P38's Rails seem to be higher.

Ron, not planning on using the GEMS ecu at all as I this want the benefits of the excelent delco system. Immobilisation can be bypassed. Thats the benefit of the early model, there's no CAN bus to worry about. Delco ECU is easily programmed from a PC with downloadable engine maps for different purposes. There are so many different configurations of this motor, from F Trucks to Corvettes, same motor just different ancilliaries.

Simon, Bloody LR decided to put the diffs on the left :mad:, which means a super strong LT230 won't fit without huge mods.

This is the IDea So far:
(AUG) 1. Initial research (this is now)
(OCT) 2. Start contacting various companies about costs etc.

(NOV) 3. Cooling off period (is it worth it - sleep on it)
(DEC) 4. If motor isn't just drop in I will try to find a bent P38 chassis and use that for fabrication of mounts ancillaries etc.
5. Purchase Gearbox, source motor, replace morse chain and viscous.
(JAN) 6. Mount all physical components in test chassis.
7. Start interface Looms (where to mount ECU etc)
8. Motor gearbox etc into car
9. Finish Wiring (need faultmate, eflive software)
10. Exhaust
Whose your daddy, A P38 with an LS1. Put foot down :blush: and....
11. Repair blown diff
12. Repair blown tranfer box
13. Repair broken axle

Thats it Job done :D

[Camo]

Hmm I think you have been in Kiwiland too long:p

I reckon doing up the 4.6 would be the easiest.. no mod plates!

my 2 cents

But hey.. would love to see a Gen3 in a P38. I'm sure there are a few guys out there dreaming of doing that conversion!

Camo

[81stubee]

Not in Kiwi land yet (just a holiday). Hey, I sold a perfect disco to get a P38, doesn't that show my level of sanity :wacko::wacko:

Its only going to happen if everything goes on fairly easy and for minimal cost :angel:. Writing out that list made me start to think twice:( but think of the POWER :twisted:. Will know for sure once I start ringing around. And will only happen if the 4.6 is completely cactus. Either way I will right it up in here.

If somebody can tell me what i'm missing, please do as I can't see it being that hard. That red defender reminded post reminded me about the power steering pressure.

Can you change the ratios on a BW Transfer Case? Currently sits at 2400rpm @ 100KmH on the highway.

Stu

[Camo]

Not in Kiwi land yet (just a holiday). Hey, I sold a perfect disco to get a P38, doesn't that show my level of sanity
:Rolling:

At 100kph I reckon 1900 rpm would be perfect for the Gen3 in a P38.. my SS sits on 1400 at 100kph. at 1900 you would have heaps more pull to overtake.

Just fit 35's.. ratio prob solved :D

Camo

[Bigbjorn]

The Lexus is a wide, bulky engine. DOHC heads make it so. Could be difficult o fit in the constraints of an RR.

[V8Landy]

A few have been put in surfs.I think they would have less room wouldn't they?

[rovercare]

A few have been put in surfs.I think they would have less room wouldn't they?

They are massixe in comparison to a gen 3, much more work to do a neat conversion


The conversion itself is a piece of cake, the ONLY concern is the interface between the BCM and the ECU


I was thinking about it for a bit:angel:

[Hoges]

Been lurking around the forums looking for the "LS1" prompt...! With a Bosch 4.6 P38 and a well cared for 2000 Calais 5.7 LS1, I have thought long and hard about possibilities....

The Gen3 LS1 develops its max torque in excess of 4000 rpm...

The overall gearing of the P38 in top gear with 16" tyres is approx equivalent to 3rd gear in the Commodore. So in the P38 at 100 kph in top and 2400 rpm on the tach the Gen3 response ought to be reasonable, but there's also another 500+ kg to haul not including passengers and off road gear!

I've also wondered about the feasibility of a 1999-2000 GMH 5L V8. Apart from the weight issues (heavy!) its torque characteristics, reliability and relatively straightforward LPG conversion might be better suited to the P38...

Thoughts?

[rovercare]

Been lurking around the forums looking for the "LS1" prompt...! With a Bosch 4.6 P38 and a well cared for 2000 Calais 5.7 LS1, I have thought long and hard about possibilities....

The Gen3 LS1 develops its max torque in excess of 4000 rpm...

The overall gearing of the P38 in top gear with 16" tyres is approx equivalent to 3rd gear in the Commodore. So in the P38 at 100 kph in top and 2400 rpm on the tach the Gen3 response ought to be reasonable, but there's also another 500+ kg to haul not including passengers and off road gear!

I've also wondered about the feasibility of a 1999-2000 GMH 5L V8. Apart from the weight issues (heavy!) its torque characteristics, reliability and relatively straightforward LPG conversion might be better suited to the P38...

Thoughts?

Thoughts? well the motor ain;t heavy and will pull the P38 along better than ANY rover stroker..................with a baby cam and valve springs of course:D

[Camo]

Anymore thoughts on a Gen3 conversion for the P38?

[rovercare]

Anymore thoughts on a Gen3 conversion for the P38?


If you find me a cheap, clean HSE with a fugged motor in anything but green, I'll have a go:D

[Camo]

Which gearbox are you thinking of?

[rovercare]

Which gearbox are you thinking of?

4HP24

[Vern]

What about brown? ;)

[rovercare]

What about brown? ;)


Hey! shouldn't you be in bed:mad:


Early start tomorrow;)

How's the ears?




I'll ask you tomorrow about noon:D

[Vern]

Hey! shouldn't you be in bed:mad:


Early start tomorrow;)

How's the ears?




I'll ask you tomorrow about noon:DBeen bashed twice tonight:mad:.
on my way, need to be up in 6hrs, 37min:(

[rovercare]

Been bashed twice tonight:mad:.
on my way, need to be up in 6hrs, 37min:(

Really? hahhaha:D

I've been up seen Pears old man, my CDL works a treat and spent an hour through the scrub on the way home, gue what's for dinner?...................








Steak, chips and Scotch:)

[81stubee]

Anymore thoughts on a Gen3 conversion for the P38?

Yep! It aint going to happen for me, unless someone knows a very cheap and "sympathetic" engineer. Because for me it has to be all legit. I'm spending the money on hand rebuilding mine.

From those I spoke to, pollution would be the next big thing, as they wanted the standard genIII cats and ECU etc.

The easiest and simplest way was as rovercare said, which is too modify the existing GEMS to suit the GenIII, but it would cost a lot to get it certified for EPA I have been told.

I'm pretty over it anyway.

Stu

[stuee]

4HP24

I've answered a few of these conversion threads before. IMO the cost of rebuilding a zf to handle the power and torque of a ls series motor would be excessive. They might shift a lot smoother than the GM boxes but they also cost a lot more to get beefed up. A chipped 6.0L ls motor is quite cabaple of pumpiong out 330kw and 550nm of torque. And by the time you go see the tuner to get the bcm functions removed from the computer your going to want to get a quick tune done too.

I've heard quotes of getting the zf built to handle serious power is upwards of $8000. You can buy a NEW 4l80e from the states for that much or get a toughened 4l65e for half as much.

The adaptos that marks 4wd do for chev to zf are not the ls series bolt pattern. Its the older style gen 2 block bolt pattern. The adaptors they do for th400/4l80e to lt-230 require pushing the transfer case right back and from feedback I've got from others they're pretty avg products. Th700/4l60e/4l65e to lt230 adaptors are available from some 4wd mod shops over east. A lot of the crawler guys use this combination.

I dont think you'd get a conversion done for under $10k doing your own labour and trying to source second hand parts. Thats were I drew the line on my disco as I dont believe its worth it. I still want to do it one day but I'm more interested in buying a house atm. But then since I lost 6k of value on my disco over 4 years I dont think its worth doing much to it haha.

If anyone is still keen on doing a conversion there are plenty of useful threads about on here and outeres giving pointers on how to go about it. Whether or not the ls motors will stay cheap now the dollar has gone down is yet to be seen though.

[rovercare]

Well aware of the pro's con's and differences, hence the decision to retain a 4HP24, if I ever find a cheap enough HSE;)

I've done 1 or 20 engine conversions:D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

not sure what $ cheap is for a HSE,,,,

There WAS a '97 HSE in the paper the other day sans motor for 7,,,
?

[4wd4fun]

Here is what you are looking at doing on top gear.
P38 with Modified ls motor.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7bnI5910uQ

[lq9-p38]

:oHi boys and girls, I just started my RR project, 01 mod p38, broken engine, like many others.
A 6,0 ltr Chevy 06 will be the one, whish me luck, and i will uppdate you about the projekt.

lq9-p38

[z06801]

Hello, first post here, but I've been wondering the same thing. I have a 98 4.6 with 180,000 on the clock and it doesn't sound so good. I am going to put a forged LS7 in to my c5 Z06 which would leave me a nice running complete LS6 to use. So I thought I would listen in.

[rovercare]

They are massixe in comparison to a gen 3, much more work to do a neat conversion


The conversion itself is a piece of cake, the ONLY concern is the interface between the BCM and the ECU


I was thinking about it for a bit:angel:

Must be my annual LSx P38 thinking time, well I do need another project after this 120":twisted:

Anyone know of a cheapish P38, I'm thinking should use the holden auto, make an adaptor to suit the BW Tx, just need the donor P38!:angel:

Alsong as interface signals are sent via signals not data, it should be an easily acheivable job, I think I can step into a niche market, drive in- drive out, engineered conversions

[Vern]

Must be my annual LSx P38 thinking time, well I do need another project after this 120":twisted:

Anyone know of a cheapish P38, I'm thinking should use the holden auto, make an adaptor to suit the BW Tx, just need the donor P38!:angel:

Alsong as interface signals are sent via signals not data, it should be an easily acheivable job, I think I can step into a niche market, drive in- drive out, engineered conversions
ginger beered hey, whos doin them for ya? Not you without ya torque wrench:D. Sing out if ya get one, will happily come over and throw some spanners at it (and drink beer):p

[rovercare]

ginger beered hey, whos doin them for ya? Not you without ya torque wrench:D. Sing out if ya get one, will happily come over and throw some spanners at it (and drink beer):p

You should convince the inlaws to part with theirs, for the right price:angel:, I'll double what you paid for the disco:D

Next project, focus is on the 120", aiming for sep finish....see how I go:eek:

[Vern]

You should convince the inlaws to part with theirs, for the right price:angel:, I'll double what you paid for the disco:D

Next project, focus is on the 120", aiming for sep finish....see how I go:eek:
sep finish for the 120? or p38? May'be try the ring around of Rover places, may have a customer with one with a dud engine!:)

[rovercare]

sep finish for the 120? or p38? May'be try the ring around of Rover places, may have a customer with one with a dud engine!:)

120", dont even have a P38 yet:D

Yea, could do, surely someone knows of one:angel:

[rovercare]

RangeRovers.net • View topic - LS1 time 2! (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37125&p=288773#p288773)

[Vern]

any updates?

[lq9-p38]

:oHi boys and girls, I just started my RR project, 01 mod p38, broken engine, like many others.
A 6,0 ltr Chevy 06 will be the one, whish me luck, and i will uppdate you about the projekt.

lq9-p38

Hi, have been out for some time,(sickness), but here i go. Parts from Austrailia arrived 2 mnds ago, and the health seems to be ok, so what are we waiting for.
Put the car into the garage a week ago, engine is ok, (chevy 6,0 lq9). Will try to informe you as i moove on. see you.:angel:

[996TURBO]

Good luck. Keep us informed with photos too please:cool:

[jbell110]

Any news ???????




Jeff

[cal415]

Anyone cosidered the LS1 to D2 swap? got a mate with a d2 V8 who wants a bit more grunt and reliability... after seeing and hearing the setup in my county he is keen to do the same with his D2, i got my head around the mechanical side of things no worries but just concearned on how it would go with engineering in NSW and how the electronic trickery of the d2 will go with the LS1...

[TOA]

Has anyone completed a P38 / LS1 conversion...?

Final cost?