Latest LRO International Mag - article on Diff lock D2 or not

[ozscott]

There is a letter asking about fitting diff lock to a D2 and whether its compatable. The author of the reply does not talk about compatability but makes the comment that he has driven D2s with just the traction control off road in a variety of circumstances and it has always taken what is thrown at it and he thinks that some people just dont trust electronics and thats about it.

That mirrors my experience largely with traction control only. I think traction control needs to be "driven" to get the best from it. I know that diff lock also might give some extra feel and present some (only a little) loss of momentum before etc cuts in, but overall its a great system (providing the braking system is well looked after) and serves very well.

I decided a little while ago to ditch the idea of not getting an output housing with the internals and to leave her standard.

I know that people who have done the diff lock are happy, but my point is to people considering it that its not a big deal in the end. Tyres and technique are far bigger aspects.

Cheers

[feraldisco]

I've heard that the TC set-up improved through the life of D2s, but on early ones (mine's a 99) TC alone is positively dangerous. It is so slow to respond and overly agressive when it does that even with 20psi and BFG A/T I was scrabbling all over the place - thankfully I have the option of engaging CDL which I now definitely do after that first code brown experience... You shouldn't have to hit the accelerator to get the TC to respond - that's a good way to break things and damage tracks. CDL and a more controlled approach is much more sensible...

[ozscott]

Thats intersting Feral...didnt know that they improved it but then again its just a computer progam so its easy to do. Mine is late 01 build and complianced 02 - very last of the rectangle headlights.

Cheers

[Redback]

A D2 with TC alone, will not get as far as a D2 with a CDL and TC engaged, i know this because i've tried it numerous times, not only that, the way the car handles with only the TC is god dam dangerous, with wheels spinning and the car bouncing and jumping sideways, it can make an easy hill bloody hard work.

It's even worse if your towing up hill with only TC, but as soon as you engage that centre Diff, the car just cruises up, in most situations with the CDL engaged, the TC won't even activate.

Baz.

[DaveF]

And speaking from recent experience, having the CDL you can still get home if your front shaft unis start chirping by removing the shaft before it goes BANG and drive with rear wheels only. I also found on a recent VHC trip after experimenting with CDL and non CDL hill ascents, having the CDL engaged along with ABS and TC the truck climbed loose tracks easier and almost zero wheel spin so environmentally friendly to boot.:)
Cheers
DaveF

Signature? I thought I had one, must have been mistaken....

[DiscoStew]

And speaking from recent experience, having the CDL you can still get home if your front shaft unis start chirping by removing the shaft before it goes BANG and drive with rear wheels only.

Having had the front prop shaft break and then finding out that this is quite common, I am going to get the CDL for that reason alone. But the rear diff lock will wait until a few other things get done.

[eckolsim]

When off-road I almost always use my CDL. That being said, the TC recently threw me sideways into a large rock causing quater panel damage. The guys with me said that all was going well until the TC kicked in and the car jumped. The track was rather challenging however, it was out at Menai with the suzuki club.

My panel beating skills are now improving.:eek:

[ozscott]

..arrhhh..but did the TC: get you up the hill:)

[John W]

I would have to agree with most of the comments having fitted a cable recently prior to my trip up Cape York. The traction control is a great system and will get you most places, but if you have an easy option to use your CDL like I did with my 99 model then go for it. It makes the world of difference in your confidence climbing up steep and loose trails. Yep, in the past I have made it through the Vic high country and other tracks on TC alone but always have to wait to get traction with loss of momentum and lots of funny TC noise and wheel spin and using a lot more boot. The other side of the coin is that you should use "hill descent" mode going down a slippery hill if you don't have a CDL as it would be possible to have 3 wheels running away while one is slipping under engine braking. Strikes me as a safety issue if your electronic TC has a failure.

[Zute]

Descending major uneven/rutted tracks can be quite dangerous. Ive been playing on quite difficult tracks that have had the hill decent just decide " nope to hard, and just cut out.:o this results in a sudden increase of speed down hill. With the CDL locked ( I just crawl under and lock it with a 10mm spanner :( ) its not a problem. I do the same tracks in my Zook (which has open front and rear diffs) more wheel spin, but feels safer.
Unlocked CDL and small hills have the TC sapping power. Locked and its not an issue. The best use for Hill descent is to give the ABS pump a work out after changing the brake fluid.
I have also been climbing a hill with the TC working, than lifted the throttle and had the disco suddenly roll backwards. I can only guess, this caused the TC to release the one wheel with no grip allowing power to go out throw this wheel. Oh what fun. Ive had to learn a new way to drive. A locked CDL would not have allowed this.
All I can say is, if you think TC is all you need, than your only doing easy tracks.:angel:

[Disco44]

After reading about the problems of the computer based D2 Geez I'm pleased that I have a D1 in that I have complete control of both going up and down hills and other obstacles The bush is the bush one cannot change it..one worries if anyone that designed these vehicles have ever been there....its a bloody long way home for a modern busted electrically computer controlled vehicle

[green man]

I have recently fitted the CDL cable from an '03 wreck and look fwd to using it this weekend. I love the TC...when I first got the D2 (after owning a D1) I was v.impressed with its ability to get places (read Gembrook mud) with the std Michellins that the D1 would not go with decent ATs.

However whilst reversing downhill through the brakes once I got crossed up at 45 degrees on a 30 degree slope...not much fun. The only way out was to accelerate to induce drive to the front wheels so I could regain steering, having done this the truck straightened up of its own accord and I continued down in a straight line. That experience convinced me to get the CDL linkage fitted.

As for HDC...never had a real issue with it, it has always been effective for me and I have an auto


cheers

[Redback]

After reading about the problems of the computer based D2 Geez I'm pleased that I have a D1 in that I have complete control of both going up and down hills and other obstacles The bush is the bush one cannot change it..one worries if anyone that designed these vehicles have ever been there....its a bloody long way home for a modern busted electrically computer controlled vehicle

I personnally don't like using the HDC, but, the missus does and we have never had a problem with it, all this rubbish about the car taking off for no apparent reason has never happened to our D2.

We had the TC only for about 5mths before i fitted our first CDL (AMV electric one first:mad:) and never had an issue with HDC and still haven't, the Disco is 7yrs old now.

Baz.

[4X4V8]

I can only agree that a CDL is the way to go. It is a mechanical lock. The ETC is reactive, so in those difficult off-rd situations (such as a steep climb) with ETC you have to lose traction before you can regain it, with ETC alone it just is asking too much. A centre diff lock means that at least one wheel on each axle is receiving drive without interruption.

I personally love ETC and think it is the best, convenient all-round traction aid for off-roading in standard 4WDS that are also used as everyday road cars - there is no doubt that one ETC equipped will go much further, much more easily off-road, with ETC.

Consistantly loose surfaces, such as sand, can be another thing, where ETC can be frustrating in the way it can kill momentum, especially the early systems. If you know what you are doing, you can usually plan ahead and drive around this problem. ETC is not a complete off-road solution, but tell me what is for all-round road and off-road use.

BUT it has to have a part time centre diff engaged or a full-time centre diff that is locked (or a viscous, I suppose) to be any good.

[ozscott]

Some of the comments about TC make me wonder if there are differences in the systems over the years...and in the maintenance of the ABS modulator. I recall an article in a South African LR site where a tester got ahold of an early D2 and thought the traction control was crap. Turned out it had an undetected ABS modulator fault (that didnt throw any lights) and it was fixed and he was asked by LR to take it back again. He then did and had to admit he was marvelled when it, amongst other things, forded and river and then climbed a steep slippery mud bank on the other side where his own 90 with mud tires gets stuck in the same conditions - and he made the comment that the D2 had road tyres on. He was a convert.

I have a D1 unlocked to compare my D2 unlocked to. I have done trails in both that leave them both spinning and going nowhere, but I have to say that despite the D1s better articulation the D2 will generally go further where there are axle twisters involved. Its a simple matter of crossed up and no drive for the D1 and trying to bounce he through is inviting damage and sometimes is just impossible.

With my D2 the TC will operate in low range with no throttle, but apply the throttle and it works much harder. The trick is not to apply then get off, but to apply and either hold or go a little harder but not to back off alltogether - it cuts out when backing off completely and you then loose the advantage for a few moments.

Personally I like it. Yes ideally I would like both CDL and ETC, but overall its a very good system.

I have used the HDC many many times in steep downhill situations where with it off, despite a manual trans, it wants to play up, with it on it tidies things up nicely. If it runs away, then either the gear selected is too high (see the tech articles about how HDC operates - it has different profiles for different gears and will run off in higher gears to a higher pre-determined speed) or there is a problem with the system.

Cheers

[4X4V8]

Trouble with off-roading is surfaces change so much it's hard to gauge sometimes if it's the vehicle that is better or worse, or the track that is better or worse, especially in convoy situations. I never like being the last in a convoy - because a piece of track that looks like a highway for the first vehicle can be very 'off-road' for the last...

I have tested a LX470 once on a slippery, steep set-piece ramp. I had it in low range but forgot to engage the CDL, thinking it was locked automatically in low-range.

Well, its ETC was groaning and whirring away like crazy, with me holding a fairly assertive throttle position (like ozscott says, you can't pussyfoot around with ETC in high-load conditions - you have to keep your foot into it).

The LX was going nowhere, so I gave up. About to reverse off the ramp, then realised the CDL was not engaged. Hit the button, tried again and it walked up easily, with only slight help from ETC.

[ozscott]

I dont know about the LC but the Defender Extreme's traction control program is not anywhere near as aggressive as the unlocked D2's program - I assume, but dont know, that the same applies to the D2a with its CDL from the factory.

As such I would expect an unlocked Deefer or D2a to not be as flash with CDL unlocked and relying on just ETC when all crossed up than a D2 without CDL all crossed up. Of course with CDL engaged you would expect the first 2 vehicles to be a bit better again and certainly with less theatrics and a more positive feel.

Cheers

[Redback]

I dont know about the LC but the Defender Extreme's traction control program is not anywhere near as aggressive as the unlocked D2's program - I assume, but dont know, that the same applies to the D2a with its CDL from the factory.

As such I would expect an unlocked Deefer or D2a to not be as flash with CDL unlocked and relying on just ETC when all crossed up than a D2 without CDL all crossed up. Of course with CDL engaged you would expect the first 2 vehicles to be a bit better again and certainly with less theatrics and a more positive feel.

Cheers

The ETC on the D2, D2a V8 and TD5 and Defender TD5 is excactly the same, it was only when the D3 came out it changed, the ETC in the D3/Freelander2/RRS is outstanding and reacts much faster than the older ETC.

The LR ETC is by far the best system in 4WDs today, it make the Defender and D2 a much better vehicle offroad.

This is where ETC comes into it's own, when you have wheels off the ground in deep holes like this one, not many 4WDs will drive out of this without some momentum or a locker.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/bazzar/DSC03112.jpg

After listening to a Prado going up a slippery hill when down at Jenolan SF, i'm glad i've got the LR system i thought the bloody car was falling apart, turned out it was the Prados ETC working:o:eek:

Baz.

[ozscott]

Cheers Baz. I am going on what a mate of mine who was the service manager for a top LR stealer for many years (and before that on the LR tools) up until a couple of years ago told me - ie re the difference in computer program between the deefer extreme and 'unlockable' D2; there are no physical differences just program he told me.

Cheers

[disco2hse]

Interesting comments. My D2 HSE has all the bits, just before the D3 was released, except the CDL :( In fact the transfer case doesn't even have the CDL in it so I can't just get it hooked up, so to have it I need to replace the transfer case.

For some strange reason LRNZ decided not to have them installed and when I enquired about having it retrofitted the cost was something like $9000 :eek: And it would have affected the warranty (only that part of the drive train though) :mad:

Now that it is out of manufacturers warranty I can have another look at the options. There should be some second hand transfer cases with the CDL in, but I might need to have one imported since there aren't many, if any, D2 TCs with CDL.

On the other hand I have not had any issues like those described and it has even shown up specc'ed up vehicles by mosying up slopes they were slipping and sliding abut all over the place.

So far HDC is concerned, it takes some getting used to. In fact I hate the way it lurches into a slope before sorting itself out, but once underway it's great. And it took some time to get to grips with failed hill climbs, but HDC in reverse is oorrrsummm :D

Alan

[ozscott]

Gday Allan - you should only need the output housing with the bits in it. MR here are about the best LR people in Qld...they reckon about $2000 all up to take out strip off the old output housing and stick on the one with the internals (D1, Deefer) and put it all back together. The shifter linkage system they use is about another $400 fitted - seperate lever in keeping with the original lever. While they have the box out they fix the the oil leak problem - a mod to the main shaft apparently.

Cheers

[disco2hse]

I have to say that when I was investigating it few people, of most of them on here, actually knew what the issues were. There was a lot of confusion about things. And the dealers were, well, not very helpful.

It is still my preference to use the HiLo shifter, which is why the requirement for the TC, apparently, but you say that is not required? That'd be great :)

[ozscott]

Mate - you can stick in a D2a shifter and linkages for an all in one. The shifting to low range activates the switch to make the TC more active than when in high range. The shifting to Difflock with the other lever (or push pull knob or whatever you want to use) just locks the diff.

Cheers

[Redback]

I have the D2a lever in mine, you can lock the centre diff in high or low range, by just moving the High/low range lever too the side.

The D2a system replaces the D2 high/low lever with the high/low/difflock lever, it's a cable system and work very well.

This is it, you can see the brass lever touching the floor this is where the cable from the high/low range goes the cable in the pic is the difflock activator.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
Ashcrofts supply this, as well as all the internals for the transfer case that hasn't got them.

It's basicly bolt off, bolt on, the internals are 225 pounds and the lever above is 245 pounds, about $900 + postage.

Baz.

[Urban Panzer]

I think You will find Ashcroft cannot supply it anymore as the diff lock cable is no longer made / available from Land Rover. I'm led to believe however they are currently looking into producing their "own" system for locking the CDL. Glad I bought mine when I did !!

[mikecmb]

I have the D2a lever in mine, you can lock the centre diff in high or low range, by just moving the High/low range lever too the side.

The D2a system replaces the D2 high/low lever with the high/low/difflock lever, it's a cable system and work very well.

This is it, you can see the brass lever touching the floor this is where the cable from the high/low range goes the cable in the pic is the difflock activator.
http://217.34.53.228:9876/uploads/diff_lock.jpg
Ashcrofts supply this, as well as all the internals for the transfer case that hasn't got them.

It's basicly bolt off, bolt on, the internals are 225 pounds and the lever above is 245 pounds, about $900 + postage.

Baz.

This sounds like the answer to my problems. Ashcrofts? I will do a google on them shortly. I have a daughter living in london who is comming over in December looks like I know what I am getting for Christmass.

Mike

[Urban Panzer]

The ETC on the D2, D2a V8 and TD5 and Defender TD5 is excactly the same

This is not correct, the D2's TC is different to the Defender as it can send traction across the axle as well as to front or rear as it compares all 4 wheels and takes an average. Because the Defender is always fitted with a CDL, the TC is different. With the CDL unlocked, the Defender can only send power to the opposite wheel on the same axle. So the D2 system on a "unlocked" vehicle is different / better.

[tempestv8]

Traction Control alone is sufficient only on easy tracks with little to no gradients.

Traction Control with CDL engaged is very good for harder tracks with much steeper gradients.

Front and Rear diff locks with CDL engaged is required for very hard tracks.

:angel:

[ozscott]

I have to disagree with that summary Lawrance. I have made it places in my unlocked D2 that make my eyes water. I wouldnt call some of the stuff I have done easy. Admittedly steep uphills are more of a challenge without CDL but its a case of more theatrics and wheel spin - more revs.

Perhaps Im out of the loop with unmodified vehicles (just bigger tyres and bull bars). Having said that my brother owns a modification workshop that regularly does 4-6inch lifts and serious off road mods and Ive been around seriously modded vehicles a little...and I dont have CDL or lift envy.

Cheers

[disco2hse]

Mate - you can stick in a D2a shifter and linkages for an all in one. The shifting to low range activates the switch to make the TC more active than when in high range. The shifting to Difflock with the other lever (or push pull knob or whatever you want to use) just locks the diff.

Cheers

Except there are no internals for the CDL in the transfer case. That is why a replacement is required.

Alan

[tempestv8]

I have to disagree with that summary Lawrance. I have made it places in my unlocked D2 that make my eyes water. I wouldnt call some of the stuff I have done easy. Admittedly steep uphills are more of a challenge without CDL but its a case of more theatrics and wheel spin - more revs.

<snip!>
Cheers

G'day Ozscott,

I've got the twin diff locks and gotta say that I've driven on a lot of types of tracks and surfaces (rock, sand, snow) and the biggest single gain was fitment of CDL when compared to totally unlocked DII.

After that, the benefits of twin difflocks are there, but it's not as huge a gain anymore. I've been able to drive up the same difficult tracks multiple times whilst experimenting with CDL, ETC and diff locks. The ETC is hard on the planetary gears on the diff centers because it is pulsing the brakes which is sending shocks through to the little spider gears. This led to the early demise of my factory diff centres, hence I fitted the ARB diff locks, because they are essentially a stronger diff centre, even when unlocked.

Also, I have found ETC not very good in sand.

Lawrance

[ozscott]

This was my first post to Allan above:

Gday Allan - you should only need the output housing with the bits in it. MR here are about the best LR people in Qld...they reckon about $2000 all up to take out strip off the old output housing and stick on the one with the internals (D1, Deefer) and put it all back together. The shifter linkage system they use is about another $400 fitted - seperate lever in keeping with the original lever. While they have the box out they fix the the oil leak problem - a mod to the main shaft apparently."

He then asked about levers and wanted one lever hence the next post...:)

[ozscott]

Larwance - you have raised what I reckon is the main problem with any TC system - its hard on the diffs. In sand the ETC alone can suffer form a standstill in deep soft sand - its harder to get going.

Having said that I have done a lot of sand work with mine with stock tires in deep beach cuttings towing up to 2.2 tonns! BUT with the 265/70/16 on there now I cant wait to get back onto the beach. This will do a lot more for me I reckon than the CDL and stock tyres on the sand. I will let you know at the end of Oct after Fraser.

Cheers matey.

PS. You have clearly gone way past stock with yours. I am one of those slightly weird cardigan wearers that like stockers...:(

[disco2hse]

PS. You have clearly gone way past stock with yours. I am one of those slightly weird cardigan wearers that like stockers...:(

Yeah but mine has leather elbow pads, I want the original leaver with the push to the left action to function :D

Anyway its all a case of diminishing returns, depending on where you start. Most situations will be addressed by one or other of the additional components:
a. If you start with nothing then TC makes a huge perceptual difference.
b. The addition of CDL to TC will make somewhat less difference, but it will get you past some specific obstacles that CDL on its own might not. Whether the less is greater or smaller depends most obviously on the person and their driving style and whether their expectations were met with TC.
c. The addition of lockers on front/rear/both to TC and CDL will make even less difference, but again the kinds of obstacles that their combination will get you past are marginally increased.

Given that the D2 is a very capable machine out the factory door and is designed to cope with most common obstacles the basic package is enough (TC without CDL). There will be situations where TC doesn't perform so well and having the addition of CDL is an advantage (deep mud is one case I can think of where all wheels may lose traction), but as technique and knowledge of the system increases, and therefore trust in it, the range may actually diminish. The requirement for lockers is only for those vehicles that are intended for extreme off-road conditions. There are few D2's that will be put into that environment and so there will be equally few that need it.

I for one know the benefit of CDL, but as yet I am not convinced that the added benefit outweighs the cost.

Alan

[Urban Panzer]

I for one know the benefit of CDL, but as yet I am not convinced that the added benefit outweighs the cost.

Alan

Course it does !! its another light on the dash and something else to play with !!! :D

I think when you compare it to the cost off diff lockers, adding a CDL linkage to a D2 equipped with a CDL in the case, is a very worth while investment. Its a shame Land Rover took 5 years to agree !!

You will be surprised how little the TC functions once the CDL is in.

[disco2hse]

Course it does !! its another light on the dash and something else to play with !!!

Dang. I hadn't thought of that. You're right. :D


I think when you compare it to the cost off diff lockers, adding a CDL linkage to a D2 equipped with a CDL in the case, is a very worth while investment. Its a shame Land Rover took 5 years to agree !!

Well, that's the point isn't it. The addition of components has a lessening effect the more you put on.


You will be surprised how little the TC functions once the CDL is in.

It may also be that, depending on how/when the CDL is engaged, TC is disengaged ;)

Alan

[Redback]

It may also be that, depending on how/when the CDL is engaged, TC is disengaged ;)

Alan

Not me, i keep mine engaged, i love ETC:D

[Urban Panzer]

If you retro fit it properly so its like an 03 /04 MY, then you can engage, disengage when you like and the 3 amigos dont pop up....

I to always have both CDL and TC:D

[ozscott]

I reckon Alan sums it all up nicely.

Urban Panzer - your right about lights and bits to play with!

Cheers all. Its all good stuff.