V8 Discovery on Hydrogen

[cnorris]

Anyone else out there running hydrogen cells in their land rover? Wanted to find out for myself - I fitted 2 cells to my 97 V8 auto disco and am getting a definate improvement in fuel consumption - it works!

[Tank]

How's about some pics and some info, Regards Frank.

[cnorris]

couple of pics of setup - a little temporary until I was convinced it worked - will take out soon and reinstall a little more professionally. So simple and very safe!

Layout - cells must be lower than water tank
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/1001.jpg

Running 2 cells
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/1002.jpg

Electrics (relay and 2 fuses) and distilled water/electrolyte tank - tube from top of tank delivers hydrogen to air inlet
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/1003.jpg

[WhiteD3]

Hate to rain on your parade, but whatever you paid for these things, you got ripped off.

There's no such thing as free energy.
While the technology will (could) produce hydrogen, the amount will be so minuscule it won't make a difference.
If it was so simple, don't you think it'd be all over the news, the govt would be mandating it to save energy, etc, etc?

A good thread on this subject here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/60069-hydrogen-fuel.html

[cnorris]

Not interested in getting into debates as to why it wont work. FACT-It does work and it does deliver results. I would like to here from anyone who has had PRACTICAL experience in using hydrogen as a supplement to petrol in an effort to further improve results.

[Sleepy]

I am sceptical too cnorris (Sceptical not cynical).
I am happy to be convinced.
Do you have any fuel figures yourself? Have you run it on a Dyno?
I drive a 98V8 D1 and I'd love to improve its fuel economy. What does the system cost?



And welcome to aulro too!

[101 Ron]

You can go ino all the chemical energy side of things,can and cant be done and discuss this and that for weeks and come back to where you start( I hope we dont do this)
What it does do is similar to the claims of diesel gas conversions.
Its about using the hydrogen and oxygen and burning the existing main fuel better to improve fuel burn overall even though some extra energy is used to drive the altenator

[BAILEY]

Hi guy's

have a look at ( www.hydrodyno.com (http://www.hydrodyno.com) ) , am starting to make one from scratch myself .

[cartm58]

so the simple questions are

1. what were you doing mpg pre installation
2. what are you doing mpg post installation
3. what did installation cost you
4. did you retune or recalibrate the electricals for the system to work
5. what down side have you encountered
6. whats the payback time on the conversion

[sclarke]

Please tell us more....
i'm not yet convinced.. but the idea sounds great...
if you can show us the before MPG and after and how it works.
Where did you get it or did you design it???
does it work on conjunction with my Flux capatitor and Hiclone???

:D:D:D:D:D

[mcrover]

Please tell us more....
i'm not yet convinced.. but the idea sounds great...
if you can show us the before MPG and after and how it works.
Where did you get it or did you design it???
does it work on conjunction with my Flux capatitor and Hiclone???

:D:D:D:D:D

Hahaha Clarkie, thats a cracker :D

Im not going to bother going into the ins and outs of why it doesnt work, it just doesnt and you went out and fitted it, wasted money and are now trying to convince others to do the same.

I have seen many of these systems, 1 of them claimed to ionise the intake air to convert it to hydrogen before it mixed with the fuel blah blah blah.....

He claimed it worked great as well and it cost him several hundred $ to build.

We put it on a Dyno, with it turned off we tested and turned on we tested and there was no difference, when we removed it he picked up a couple of Hp due to better flow through the intake manifold.

Theres also the Browns gas conversion using baking soda and some other ingredients which is meant to produce Hydrogen, which it obviously doesnt, it produces Co2.

The canisters that you have built cant produce anywhere near enough hydrogen if any to make the slightest bit of difference to anything.

There is a word for this......FRAUD....:mad:

It's just another snake oil.

Go chuck it on a Dyno and post up the results.

The results need to be.

Removed anything from intake system - Torque and power figures
Fitted not running - Torque and power figures
Fitted and running - Torque and power figures

This has to be from a reputable company, scanned off a hard copy and then needs to be signed by a JP and accomanied with a stat dec before I will believe it.

Sorry to rain on your parade :p

[Sleepy]

Please tell us more....
i'm not yet convinced.. but the idea sounds great...
if you can show us the before MPG and after and how it works.
Where did you get it or did you design it???
does it work on conjunction with my Flux capatitor and Hiclone???

:D:D:D:D:D

Only if you have a Polariser fitted;)

[clean32]

Hahaha Clarkie, thats a cracker :D

Im not going to bother going into the ins and outs of why it doesnt work, it just doesnt and you went out and fitted it, wasted money and are now trying to convince others to do the same.

I have seen many of these systems, 1 of them claimed to ionise the intake air to convert it to hydrogen before it mixed with the fuel blah blah blah.....

He claimed it worked great as well and it cost him several hundred $ to build.

We put it on a Dyno, with it turned off we tested and turned on we tested and there was no difference, when we removed it he picked up a couple of Hp due to better flow through the intake manifold.

Theres also the Browns gas conversion using baking soda and some other ingredients which is meant to produce Hydrogen, which it obviously doesnt, it produces Co2.

The canisters that you have built cant produce anywhere near enough hydrogen if any to make the slightest bit of difference to anything.

There is a word for this......FRAUD....:mad:

It's just another snake oil.

Go chuck it on a Dyno and post up the results.

The results need to be.

Removed anything from intake system - Torque and power figures
Fitted not running - Torque and power figures
Fitted and running - Torque and power figures

This has to be from a reputable company, scanned off a hard copy and then needs to be signed by a JP and accomanied with a stat dec before I will believe it.

Sorry to rain on your parade :p

i take it you have built a few systems?
Granted most internet systems are not true, but browns Gas, baking soda, CO2 ? you should realy check your facts before posting

[mcrover]

No I havnt built one of these systems but I have removed at least 2 of them.

1 because when we put it on a Dyno we found that it lossed a couple of Hp with it fitted (92 Toyota Hilux duel cab 4cyl petrol) and the second becaus it started a fire in the engine bay due to a dead short in one of the canister (converters or what ever you want to call them).

The reason they are not used in the main is because they are a scam.

They have been tested by several people and the main reason you wont find buggert all scientific info on them that is credible is because nobody will be bothered wasting the money due to it NOT BEING POSSIBLE for it to work.

On the Browns gas I may be wrong as it was one of the brain surgeons that fitted one of these systems that was telling me about that so that information is most likely not correct and it was baking soda, water and vinigar I think was his mix and the gas that came off the foam was meant to be Hydrogen......which it obviously isnt.

[cnorris]

so the simple questions are

1. what were you doing mpg pre installation
2. what are you doing mpg post installation
3. what did installation cost you
4. did you retune or recalibrate the electricals for the system to work
5. what down side have you encountered
6. whats the payback time on the conversion

1. 4-5.5 kms per litre
2. 5-6.5 kms per litre (up to 7 on one trip)
have only done 1500km - want to run up many more to minimise effect of varibles)
3. $600 (I remember my first mobile phone cost me over $2500. I have no problem with spending $ on new technology - eventually it will be affordable for the followers)
4. no re-calibration done on electrics yet
5. Downsides - other than sustaining the barrage of cynical rubbish from people who havent even given it a go, there are no obvious downsides. Definately no drop in power, even with high draw from cells alternater is keeping battery fully charged, no effect on engine tuning - if anything running a little smoother. I am a motor mechanic and for a whole lot of reasons struggle to understand why this concept is not being pursued more aggressivlely.
6. Not an issue at this stage to me - my objective is to get results. When 'off the shelf' kits are availible then I think its time to answer payback question.

[mcrover]

1. 4-5.5 kms per litre
2. 5-6.5 kms per litre (up to 7 on one trip)
have only done 1500km - want to run up many more to minimise effect of varibles)
3. $600 (I remember my first mobile phone cost me over $2500. I have no problem with spending $ on new technology - eventually it will be affordable for the followers)
4. no re-calibration done on electrics yet
5. Downsides - other than sustaining the barrage of cynical rubbish from people who havent even given it a go, there are no obvious downsides. Definately no drop in power, even with high draw from cells alternater is keeping battery fully charged, no effect on engine tuning - if anything running a little smoother. I am a motor mechanic and for a whole lot of reasons struggle to understand why this concept is not being pursued more aggressivlely.
6. Not an issue at this stage to me - my objective is to get results. When 'off the shelf' kits are availible then I think its time to answer payback question.


If you were a motor mechanic then you would know why it's not being used as well as why so many people are so cynical about it.

18ltrs/100kms before the system to 15ltr/100kms with the system....

Ok well when you put it on the Dyno then please post the results and I will happilly eat my words....:)

[mcrover]

Found this, this is what your are doing basically

The electrolysis of water is a simple method of producing hydrogen. A low voltage current is run through the water, and gaseous oxygen forms at the anode while gaseous hydrogen forms at the cathode. Typically the cathode is made from platinum or another inert metal when producing hydrogen for storage. If, however, the gas is to be burnt on site, oxygen is desirable to assist the combustion, and so both electrodes would be made from inert metals. (Iron, for instance, would oxidize, and thus decrease the amount of oxygen given off.) The theoretical maximum efficiency (electricity used vs. energetic value of hydrogen produced) is between 80–94%.[64]

From here:
Hydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen#Industrial)

The scale is the probem, you would need a system the size of your car to do what your claiming.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a different story all together as they are seen to be a feasable way to power a vehical if they can make comercial quantities of hydrogen without burning to much fossil fuels in doing so.

[clean32]

Found this, this is what your are doing basically

The electrolysis of water is a simple method of producing hydrogen. A low voltage current is run through the water, and gaseous oxygen forms at the anode while gaseous hydrogen forms at the cathode. Typically the cathode is made from platinum or another inert metal when producing hydrogen for storage. If, however, the gas is to be burnt on site, oxygen is desirable to assist the combustion, and so both electrodes would be made from inert metals. (Iron, for instance, would oxidize, and thus decrease the amount of oxygen given off.) The theoretical maximum efficiency (electricity used vs. energetic value of hydrogen produced) is between 80–94%.[64]

From here:
Hydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen#Industrial)

The scale is the probem, you would need a system the size of your car to do what your claiming.

Hydrogen fuel cells are a different story all together as they are seen to be a feasable way to power a vehical if they can make comercial quantities of hydrogen without burning to much fossil fuels in doing so.

wow, you can wiki, now wiki Browns Gas, also look at what is involved in manufacturing an Hydrogen cell. Also look at electrolytes in electrolysis.
and for a giggle look at imposition as opposed to explosion.
Oh and have a look at a salt chlorinator on any swimming pool, maybe even look up what Gas's it produces
I think that’s enough home work for tonight, may carry on with your education tomorrow, or I may just use a brick wall.

[WhiteD3]

I've spent a couple of hours on the net looking for something concrete which debunks this thing but mostly all I got was hits about wondrous hydrogen devices to save me money.

I did find this Water Car Test - HHO Shows Why You Can't Run Cars on Water - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4276846.html)

Q: Why aren't the auto manufacturers going down the this road? And don't tell me its a conspiracy they're in with the oil companies:wasntme:

[mcrover]

wow, you can wiki, now wiki Browns Gas, also look at what is involved in manufacturing an Hydrogen cell. Also look at electrolytes in electrolysis.
and for a giggle look at imposition as opposed to explosion.
Oh and have a look at a salt chlorinator on any swimming pool, maybe even look up what Gas's it produces
I think that’s enough home work for tonight, may carry on with your education tomorrow, or I may just use a brick wall.

Oh yeah, you know everything and all of us are wrong.

Geez arnt you so much more interneducatedthan the rest of us.

As I said about browns gas, I was told about it by someone like you who obviously got it wrong and yes I should have checked the information before posting it so yes there youve got me.......arnt you clever :p

[clean32]

Just trying to help you understand.


NB the big birds are in the back sandy paddock




Oh yeah, you know everything and all of us are wrong.

Geez arnt you so much more interneducatedthan the rest of us.

As I said about browns gas, I was told about it by someone like you who obviously got it wrong and yes I should have checked the information before posting it so yes there youve got me.......arnt you clever :p

[sclarke]

We over arguing?????

So the results are that he claims it works...
Well if it does.. that is great

[WhiteD3]

How 'bout this...............

Oxyhydrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen)

[mcrover]

Hydrogen fuel enhancement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement)

Seems you may be right about something but Im still wanting to see proper figures as I still havnt seen a home made system that works.

All the systems I have seen were built by blokes with half baked ideas on less than reasonable vehicals so get back to us with some REAL numbers in the form of a Dyno docket and I will believe you..........as I said in my very first post.

By the way, I have never once said hydrogen fuel enhancement isnt possible or not worth doing just that your on board system wont make enough to make a difference.

I hadnt heard of anyone doing it successfully (and I mean ohnestly really successfully) until I just read that link but I think they would be using quite expensive systems but you may really be onto something and I may have to eat my words.

[mcrover]

Both the link I just posted and the Popular Mechanics artical both mention that to make it work you need to adjust fuel mixture that is normally around 14.5 to 14.7:1 up to around 20 to 30:1 and then the HHO injection makes up the difference.

Im still not convinced due to the damage that those lean mixtures would do to your engine other than at Idle which would be your best chance of fuel savings as Vacuum is high and combustion temps are low but if the system fails, your engine would quickly follow.

I personally think the fuel savings are due to the lean mixtures rather than the HHO injection and that any engine with or without HHO Inj would show the same levels and not last very long due to increasing combustion temps at low RPM and having detonation at higher RPM.

This tells me that straight up, your numbers are not correct as you have said you havnt done any mods to your engine other than adding HHO.

Chuck a sniffer up your tail pipe and lean out your mixture to 20:1 and tell us if your engine stays together running HHO from your system.

[clean32]

Now your getting close. Correct about the Popular Mechanics article, it also stated that they were not draining any amp's. no amps no Gas.

We know motors can run on hydrogen
we know that hydrogen makes fuel burn faster and cleaner, we also know that hydrogen is added to today’s petrol and diesel.
We know that adding oxygen will do.

Personally I think that adding the hydrogen dumping the oxygen, retarding the timing should in theory produce some benefits, but then that produces a new set of problems





Both the link I just posted and the Popular Mechanics artical both mention that to make it work you need to adjust fuel mixture that is normally around 14.5 to 14.7:1 up to around 20 to 30:1 and then the HHO injection makes up the difference.

Im still not convinced due to the damage that those lean mixtures would do to your engine other than at Idle which would be your best chance of fuel savings as Vacuum is high and combustion temps are low but if the system fails, your engine would quickly follow.

I personally think the fuel savings are due to the lean mixtures rather than the HHO injection and that any engine with or without HHO Inj would show the same levels and not last very long due to increasing combustion temps at low RPM and having detonation at higher RPM.

This tells me that straight up, your numbers are not correct as you have said you havnt done any mods to your engine other than adding HHO.

Chuck a sniffer up your tail pipe and lean out your mixture to 20:1 and tell us if your engine stays together running HHO from your system.

[JohnE]

Here we go again,
alternate energies forum someone comes up with an alternate energy device,they have tried and they reckon it works,
then the resident experts shoot him down in flames,
thats priceless.

so much for onsite goodwill and a sense of fair play. What does it tell the world, its says come on board dare to say something different and you will be treated like a leper!


john

[cnorris]

Here we go again,
alternate energies forum someone comes up with an alternate energy device,they have tried and they reckon it works,
then the resident experts shoot him down in flames,
thats priceless.

so much for onsite goodwill and a sense of fair play. What does it tell the world, its says come on board dare to say something different and you will be treated like a leper!


john

Well said JohnE! No more posts on hydrogen on this forum from me.
Cheers
cnorris

[Gullible]

Well said JohnE! No more posts on hydrogen on this forum from me.
Cheers
cnorris

Thats a shame.
I am interested to see how it works out for you in the long run.

[mcrover]

Reality check.
Pro : Yes an engine will run on Hydrogen
Con : You cant produce enough on board a vehical with a 12/24volt system due to size constraints.

Pro : You can Mix Hydrogen with the intake air to increase efficiency
Con : Again the system if it is to work is quite large and still uses a fairly large amount of amps to drive it

Pro : You dont need to do major mods to your vehical
con : You do if your not running straight Hydrogen need to modify your fuel mixtures to see any result due to your only replacing air fuel mixture with Hydrogen.

Pro : It is possible to build one of these systems
Con : It's doubtful if a home made system will work, espesially one as small as what Clean32 has.

I have said time and time again that I want to see proper numbers off a dyno as I have seen it before AND IT DOESNT WORK.

As far as shooting him down goes, the facts that have been posted shoot him down enough but there is hope if his system is as good as he says it is then post a dyno report with the HHO on and HHO off figures.

These systems are not as simple as what people make out.

As I have said, there is absolutly no point unless you modify the fuel air mixture to run lean and richen it with the HHO but this will only really work at Idle and light throttle due to the systems using vacuum to draw the Hydrogen into the intake so under power you need a computer or carbi that will then richen the fuel air mix again.

Easy with a carbi but a bit more indepth with fuel injection.

You also then will get better use of it if you recurve the dizzy to have heaps and heaps of advance at idle when your running on HHO to get maximum burn from the fuel as when the HHO burns it does burn more of the fuel air mix but then slows the burn so you need more advance on the ignition to allow time for the burn to produce maximum power and you dont have exhaust valves burning up due to it exhasting midway through the burn.

You can say what you like JohnE but Im not shooting him down Im making a valid point.

Unless you have all the ducks in a row IT DOESNT WORK...

[BAILEY]

Reality check.
Pro : Yes an engine will run on Hydrogen
Con : You cant produce enough on board a vehical with a 12/24volt system due to size constraints.

Pro : You can Mix Hydrogen with the intake air to increase efficiency
Con : Again the system if it is to work is quite large and still uses a fairly large amount of amps to drive it

Pro : You dont need to do major mods to your vehical
con : You do if your not running straight Hydrogen need to modify your fuel mixtures to see any result due to your only replacing air fuel mixture with Hydrogen.

Pro : It is possible to build one of these systems
Con : It's doubtful if a home made system will work, espesially one as small as what Clean32 has.

I have said time and time again that I want to see proper numbers off a dyno as I have seen it before AND IT DOESNT WORK.

As far as shooting him down goes, the facts that have been posted shoot him down enough but there is hope if his system is as good as he says it is then post a dyno report with the HHO on and HHO off figures.

These systems are not as simple as what people make out.

As I have said, there is absolutly no point unless you modify the fuel air mixture to run lean and richen it with the HHO but this will only really work at Idle and light throttle due to the systems using vacuum to draw the Hydrogen into the intake so under power you need a computer or carbi that will then richen the fuel air mix again.

Easy with a carbi but a bit more indepth with fuel injection.

You also then will get better use of it if you recurve the dizzy to have heaps and heaps of advance at idle when your running on HHO to get maximum burn from the fuel as when the HHO burns it does burn more of the fuel air mix but then slows the burn so you need more advance on the ignition to allow time for the burn to produce maximum power and you dont have exhaust valves burning up due to it exhasting midway through the burn.

You can say what you like JohnE but Im not shooting him down Im making a valid point.

Unless you have all the ducks in a row IT DOESNT WORK...
buddy your a ****in nutcase

[clean32]

Well said JohnE! No more posts on hydrogen on this forum from me.
Cheers
cnorris

mate, keep us up to date with your system, and how its going, some of us are realy intrested.

[clean32]

Pro : It is possible to build one of these systems
Con : It's doubtful if a home made system will work, espesially one as small as what Clean32 has.

...

funny, i thought i was running Bio diesel, have to lift the bonnet in the morring to check LOL

[Sleepy]

I am sure there are ways of working this out.

Energy provided by Hydrogen vs. Energy required to make hydrogen.

Any budding chemists out there please speak up.

P.S. Would you guys stop quoting Wikipedia as a reliable source - I watched my 12 yo daughter amend a Wikipedia page with 3 clicks of the mouse :o

"Look Dad, I'm famous!":blink:

[clean32]

I am sure there are ways of working this out.

Energy provided by Hydrogen vs. Energy required to make hydrogen.

Any budding chemists out there please speak up.

P.S. Would you guys stop quoting Wikipedia as a reliable source - I watched my 12 yo daughter amend a Wikipedia page with 3 clicks of the mouse :o

"Look Dad, I'm famous!":blink:

Mate that’s simple, it takes more to produce than it will produce, no arguments there.
But if hydrogen is added to other fuels, it changes the way those fuels burn/ behave etc. The 2 most obvious is that the fuel will burn faster and cooler.

Hydrogen is the main addition to Diesel, in the clean diesel up thing of about 5 years ago, its also why octane ratings of diesel have increased ( a little) but there burn rate has increased much.
And it doesn’t need much hydrogen to change the burn properties of any given fuel.

[JDNSW]

Mate that’s simple, it takes more to produce than it will produce, no arguments there.
Correct - probably overall efficiency is around 10%

But if hydrogen is added to other fuels, it changes the way those fuels burn/ behave etc. The 2 most obvious is that the fuel will burn faster and cooler.
I do not believe this (faster and cooler) is necessarily accurate when talking about hydrogen as an additive rather than a sole fuel. The main advantage of hydrogen as a fuel additive is that hydrogen will ignite over a much wider range of ratios to oxygen than just about any other fuel, and once ignited will provide a better ignition source than the spark, spreading the flame front much more reliably. This means that it will give better ignition in difficult conditions, such as idling, and this effect may result in increased economy. But it will also tend to mask any minor engine problems such as an out of tolerance sensor, plug gaps wrong, leaky HT leads etc and so give an improvement that could also have been achieved by fixing the problems. The quoted articles suggest most improvement will be in idling economy, but these depend on using a non standard (leaner) mixture and a much higher percentage of hydrogen than will be achieved by on board generators. Above idling, the increased combustion temperature from a leaner mixture may cause mechanical problems and excessive NOx and preclude these being used - at high powers engines will run on leaner mixtures without added hydrogen, but cannot meet durability and emission requirements. While hydrogen burning alone may burn cooler than petrol, I am not convinced that this will be the case when we are talking about a small percentage as an additive to petrol. As a general rule a leaner mixture will burn hotter, although if leaned far enough it will get cooler again - but the maximum thermal efficiency will be at the highest burn temperature - going past this on the lean side will decrease both power and fuel consumption (although it may be worth doing, for example on the overrun or when idling, if you can manage it without problems, and hydrogen may help here)

Hydrogen is the main addition to Diesel, in the clean diesel up thing of about 5 years ago, its also why octane ratings of diesel have increased ( a little) but there burn rate has increased much.
No. The main change to the 'clean diesel' is to reduce the sulphur content. Any change in the hydrogen content of the fuel is a result of removing the sulphur and not to do with the 'cleanness' of it. In any case, diesel fuel does not contain any free hydrogen so its behaviour is not related to the improved combustion achieved by adding hydrogen (or in fact any light fraction including LPG).
And octane rating is totally irrelevant to diesel fuel. Perhaps you are thinking of cetane rating, although this is not exactly equivalent.

And it doesn’t need much hydrogen to change the burn properties of any given fuel.

That is correct - but note that the references quoted talk about 2-5%, which is still a lot more than the on board generators will give.


I have added some comments on my analysis of the situation, which may help.

John

[isuzurover]

Hydrogen is the main addition to Diesel, in the clean diesel up thing of about 5 years ago, its also why octane ratings of diesel have increased ( a little) but there burn rate has increased much.
And it doesn’t need much hydrogen to change the burn properties of any given fuel.

Sorry, but this is wrong. Cetane rating is what is important in diesel, not octane. Cetane is related to parrafin/olefin type molecule content, not aromatic content which governs octane rating.

As I have posted elsewhere (either here or on OL), these generators produce "brown's gas" - a mix of O2, H2 and water vapour. It is likely that the H2O vapour has the biggest effect, as it works like water injection, which has been proven to improve combustion efficiency and reduce NOx (I posted a paper somewhere on this - from Daimler Benz). However I am still sceptical that such a system could change fuel consumption by more than 1-2%.

[mcrover]

Sorry, but this is wrong. Cetane rating is what is important in diesel, not octane. Cetane is related to parrafin/olefin type molecule content, not aromatic content which governs octane rating.

As I have posted elsewhere (either here or on OL), these generators produce "brown's gas" - a mix of O2, H2 and water vapour. It is likely that the H2O vapour has the biggest effect, as it works like water injection, which has been proven to improve combustion efficiency and reduce NOx (I posted a paper somewhere on this - from Daimler Benz). However I am still sceptical that such a system could change fuel consumption by more than 1-2%.

I think I will believe Dr Ben over others.........He's really a Dr but I dont know of what :p

Hey If wikepedia isnt any good, Maybe tomorrow I should ring Dr Karl on JJJ and ask him :o

Now he will tell us if it's true or not :D

[mcrover]

buddy your a ****in nutcase

Oh so I cant call people stupid but.........:mad:

Who the hell are you anyway?:mad::mad::mad:

So are you another believer?:p

I must appologise to clean32, I should have checked and it's not his system its Cnorris's system.

Sorry I hope nobody died as a result of my mistake and I hope we can all get on with what we are doing.

[mcrover]

funny, i thought i was running Bio diesel, have to lift the bonnet in the morring to check LOL

Yeah sorry Clean32, my mistake there.:D

[BAILEY]

Oh so I cant call people stupid but.........:mad:

Who the hell are you anyway?:mad::mad::mad:

So are you another believer?:p

I must appologise to clean32, I should have checked and it's not his system its Cnorris's system.

Sorry I hope nobody died as a result of my mistake and I hope we can all get on with what we are doing.
I don't care who's system it is , thats beside my point the point is your an IDIOT

[mcrover]

I don't care who's system it is , thats beside my point the point is your an IDIOT

Would you like to elaborate or are you just into insulting people?

[mcrover]

I don't care who's system it is , thats beside my point the point is your an IDIOT

Im many things, a couple of which says I know a little about such things as this rubbish but you havnt added anything productive you have just called me an idiot which in some cases I can be but I dont really think that this is one of them due to the fact that 3 of the most educated people on this forum are backing up most of what I have pointed out.

I think you should go and read the conditions of access to the forum and then get back to us with why Im an Idiot and what Ive got wrong.

Why I have it wrong and why on earth did you think that calling me names would help any cause that you are defending or what ever it is that you are trying to achieve.

[BAILEY]

Im many things, a couple of which says I know a little about such things as this rubbish but you havnt added anything productive you have just called me an idiot which in some cases I can be but I dont really think that this is one of them due to the fact that 3 of the most educated people on this forum are backing up most of what I have pointed out.

I think you should go and read the conditions of access to the forum and then get back to us with why Im an Idiot and what Ive got wrong.

Why I have it wrong and why on earth did you think that calling me names would help any cause that you are defending or what ever it is that you are trying to achieve.
I could explain to you , I can waste my time explaining to you though I really don't think your worth the pain.

[dobbo]

Please tell us more....

does it work on conjunction with my Flux capatitor and Hiclone???

:D:D:D:D:D

A course of antibiotics will cure those you dirty, dirty little boy





what Ive got wrong.

The spelling of the word APOLOGY on hundreds of bloody occations, look there is only one P in APOLOGY not two.



Why I have it wrong and why on earth did you think that calling me names would help any cause that you are defending or what ever it is that you are trying to achieve.


Because after numerous times of trying to tell you and others who cannot spell such a simple word I've had enough. Who taught you how to spell it? Some of you guys not just mcrover spell it the same incorrect way "APPOLOGY". I know one of you suffers from the balls in the jar on the kitchen shelf syndrome? Is this related?

[Ben]

...on hundreds of bloody occations...

Occations?

I think an appology is in order.

[Redback]

A course of antibiotics will cure those you dirty, dirty little boy





The spelling of the word APOLOGY on hundreds of bloody occations, look there is only one P in APOLOGY not two.





Because after numerous times of trying to tell you and others who cannot spell such a simple word I've had enough. Who taught you how to spell it? Some of you guys not just mcrover spell it the same incorrect way "APPOLOGY". I know one of you suffers from the balls in the jar on the kitchen shelf syndrome? Is this related?

Such matters should be left to the experts Mat (ie) Ron:D


Occations?

I think an appology is in order.

Yes i agree that spelling of occasion is....... ar-tro-shus:p

Baz.

[dobbo]

Occations?

I think an appology is in order.


Ok Ben too true

I appaloosianologize

[drivesafe]

WOW, has this thread lost the plot.

Any chance of getting back on subject :confused:

[Phoenix]

Ladies and gents, consider thisan official warning to keep things on topic, and ease up with the attacks on one another.

If you can't contriubte to a topic without being nasty or insulting peope, don't post at all.

[JohnF]

Hate to rain on your parade, but whatever you paid for these things, you got ripped off.

There's no such thing as free energy.
While the technology will (could) produce hydrogen, the amount will be so minuscule it won't make a difference.
If it was so simple, don't you think it'd be all over the news, the govt would be mandating it to save energy, etc, etc?

A good thread on this subject here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/60069-hydrogen-fuel.html

met a man--he taught a first aid course I attended-- who ran his v8 sedan [not a rover] on water/hydrogen, reducing his petrol consumption 80%. He removed his home made hydrogen unit after he had a flash back, and said he could have blown up the whole town where he lived. But he had run it on hydrogen for several months before this happened. This unit in this post maynot be the same thing. His unit was not a fuel cell turning petrol to hydrogen, but turned water to hydrogen. I have read about this for 20 years. Jo Bjelke Peterson former premier of Queensland often talked of having hydrogen powered cars that would be almost free to run. The technology is known, and has been known for many years. Welders by Yul Brown--google "browns gas," weld metals using hydrogen extracted from water. The above quote said "if it was so simple it would be all over the news. the government would be mandating it to save energy, etc." The reason they do not do that, is that President George Bush owns too many oil wells. To introduce Hydrogen cars would hurt the vast income of the most powerful family in the world, so no one is game to talk up hydrogen cars too much. I have a friend who worked for Yul Brown 25 years ago. Yul Brown wanted to put this technology into a car and wanted my friend to develop this technology and do the reseach. Yul brown was told that if he put this technology into a car he would be murdered. Scared Yul brown backed down. Monday I heard the TV news that said Honda has produced the first Hydrogen car. See Hydrogen when burnt puts out just water so is very clean energy. but it takes a lot of electricity to convert water into hydrogen in the first place.

[JohnF]

My above reply was written before i finished reading the second page of replies. The guy who made the hydrogen generator used it and it worked. Other people that I have met ran their cars on generated hydrogen. those who do not think it works can still believe that if they wish. But I have met many who know it does work. However these guys were using it as fuel, not a fuel supliment to increase efeciency of petrol, but to replace petrol. they used it like we use LPG in the car. As far as the coment you would just get CO2, those people I know did not use baking soda as a catylyst, they used sodium hydroxide.

[Redback]

Last week when i was trying too find a Vortex muffler supplier i found this on Hydrogen systems.

Hydrogyn Oxygen Generation Systems - NDM Tyre Auto Services (http://www.ndmtyreauto.com.au/hogs.htm)

Baz.

[mcrover]

My above reply was written before i finished reading the second page of replies. The guy who made the hydrogen generator used it and it worked. Other people that I have met ran their cars on generated hydrogen. those who do not think it works can still believe that if they wish. But I have met many who know it does work. However these guys were using it as fuel, not a fuel supliment to increase efeciency of petrol, but to replace petrol. they used it like we use LPG in the car. As far as the coment you would just get CO2, those people I know did not use baking soda as a catylyst, they used sodium hydroxide.


Please do me a favour and read the rest of the posts, this has already been delt with.

[mcrover]

PROOF PROOF PROOF.

Any one can write anything they want on a forum, Im asking for proof that these systems work.

I have explained why I think they cant work as has many of the highly educated members as well as many of the not so highly educated but highly skilled as well as the ones that are just interested in this stuff but to the 3 that are getting all torn up over us aparently bagging their systems.......


SHOW US SOME BLOODY PROOF THAT AT LEAST 1 OF THESE SYSTEMS HAS EVER WORKED.........PROPERLY

[sschmez]

PROOF PROOF PROOF.

WHO MADE YOU THE PROOF POLICE???

PULL YOUR HEAD IN FOR ONCE - AND MAYBE A VALUABLE DISCUSSION CAN BE HAD BY ALL

You're also making some wild assumptions about educated

[isuzurover]

My above reply was written before i finished reading the second page of replies. The guy who made the hydrogen generator used it and it worked. Other people that I have met ran their cars on generated hydrogen. those who do not think it works can still believe that if they wish. But I have met many who know it does work. However these guys were using it as fuel, not a fuel supliment to increase efeciency of petrol, but to replace petrol. they used it like we use LPG in the car. As far as the coment you would just get CO2, those people I know did not use baking soda as a catylyst, they used sodium hydroxide.

John, what you are talking about breaks the first law of thermodynamics (law of conservation of energy). I.e. it takes MORE energy to split water into H2 + O2 (or brown's gas) than you get back out when you combust it. This holds true despite any catalyst or other method you use to electrolyse/dissociate the water.

This law has held since it was first stated by Rudolf Clausius in the mid 1800's. None of the "water powered car" inventors and the like will be taken seriously by the science community, until they can disprove the law of conservation of energy.

The fact is, all the guys you mentioned were either misguided or frauds. I can thoroughly reccommend a book called "voodoo science" by bob park, which goes through all these sorts of inventions.

The fact that Joe was fooled doesn't mean anything. Politicians are not scientists and certainly not geniuses. Peter Beattie recently announced (with reference to the pipeline from FNQ) that he was planning to both pump water uphill whilst generating hydro electricity...

The closest we came to a REAL water powered car was an engine that ran on water and welding wire (the engine actually ran on hydrogen) - from another thread on here:




Originally Posted by Michael2 View Post
I saw a video on the www a couple of years ago, but haven't been able to find it since.

There was a small motor (lawn mower motor I think) that was powered by hydrogen gas. The motor drove an alternator which powered a small welder and it turned an aluminium drum. The drum was submerged in a tank of water and the welder electrode touched the aluminium drum and arced. The spinning drum stopped the electrode from sticking to the aluminium. The arc bound O2 to the aluminium, falling to the bottom of the tank as an aluminium oxide residue, and the liberated hydrogen bubbled to the top and powered the motor.

Was it real? I don't know.


It is quite real.

There is a patent on this and apparently BMW did some experiments to look at feasibility (BMW since went on to develop cars with high-pressure hydrogen storage instead - so that should say something).

Hydrogen supply unit - US Patent 4702894 (http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4702894/description.html)


Hydrogen supply unit - US Patent 4702894

Quote:
A unit substantially as shown in the drawings has been used to drive a 500 cc motor cycle engine. The wire 22 had a diameter of 1,6 mm and was of commercial purity (98% Al). The unit produced over 1000 cc of hydrogen a minute, with an aluminium
wire consumption rate of 140 to 180 cm per minute. The rate of deposition of aluminium oxide was about 4 kilograms per 500 kilometers travelled.

Conventional modifications were made to the carburettor to enable the engine to run on a mixture of hydrogen and air.

The wire 22 carries a voltage of about 18000 volts with a current of about 1 amp.

The invention may equally be used to power stationary industrial engines, as well as motor vehicle engines.

Taking those claims at face value, the system requires 18kW of electrical energy, to power a 500cc (petrol) engine.

An average 500cc motorbike engine back then could be expected to produce a maximum of about 36kW of power. However, running on hydrogen produces about a 20% loss of power (based on real-world data). For simplicity, lets say 8kW are lost.

So it takes 18kW of energy to run an engine that produces 28kW. So assuming your alternator and drivetrain are 100% efficient, you now have a maximum of 10kW at the wheels, instead of 36.

Now with a rate of aluminium MIG wire consumption of 180 cm/min (or 108m/hr). What's the best price you can get a 7kg roll of 1mm mig wire for? $150ish? So that means just under $5/hr to run at current prices.

If the same engine averages 3l/100km, it would also cost about $5/hr to run, but you would have 3.5* the power at the wheels.


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/60069-hydrogen-fuel-4.html


Some REAL research on water injection:
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~rutland/research.dir/NOx_water/2000-01-2938.pdf
http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2008-01-1190.pdf

[mcrover]

WHO MADE YOU THE PROOF POLICE???

PULL YOUR HEAD IN FOR ONCE - AND MAYBE A VALUABLE DISCUSSION CAN BE HAD BY ALL

You're also making some wild assumptions about educated

You finished?

I take it your still sore at me then?

What do you have to add as far as the discussion goes other than a dig at me?

What is it that you expect to accomplish by posting that Stevo?

So far there has been a lot of discussion but absolutely no proof from the pro side of the camp.

It's not hard, if it does work then someone has to have some proof that it works, people have been building these systems since the 60's from the research I have done and still no proof that it works.

Theres proof that it can produce a small amount of what could be hydrogen but deffinatly I have not seen any proof that any system like the one shown that can produce enough to make the slightest difference.

So who are you saying are not educated, Im not saying me, I was saying that other more educated people were of the same thoughts as me.

I think Isuzurover kinda beats most of us on the educated side of things, JohnE is fairly well up there as well I believe but I may be wrong, I am a lot you know.

[isuzurover]

Maybe we should move the bickering to another thread...


OK how about a "back of the envelope" analysis of these hydrogen electolysis systems (talking about the add-on systems to a petrol or diesel here).

You have an engine running on petrol or diesel, let's say it produces 100kW or power.

The engine is fitted with a 100A Alternator. 100A x 13.5V = 1.35kW (power produced) - it would probably take at least 1.5-2kW of engine power to turn the alternator.

So let's say all of the 1.35kW is available for electrolysis.

Water electrolysis has a theoretical maximum of about 80-90% efficiency (efficiency at converting the electrical energy to H2 + O2) - note that that is theoretical, most systems are much worse.

However let's say we have 80% efficiency. So we get 0.8*1.35 = 1.08kW.

Now a typical engine is at best about 30% efficient at turning fuel into power. So we would really have about 0.3kW of power generated by the fuel.

So - bottom line, is that even if the power of the alternator is "free", and the alternator was ONLY running the electrolysis. We could expect <1% difference in fuel consumption. (also assuming the fuel metering was adjusted to compensate).

[clean32]

Every one seems to be missing the point here. Its hydrogen as a supplement fuel to aid the burning of the current fuel. Not as a replacement fuel. There is no doubt that the energy required to produce hydrogen out weighs the energy received. But my interest is in the fact that fuel manufactures add hydrogen to our current fuels. They wouldn’t be doing that solely to reduce there profit margins now would they??
So there must be something in it all

[isuzurover]

Every one seems to be missing the point here. Its hydrogen as a supplement fuel to aid the burning of the current fuel. Not as a replacement fuel. There is no doubt that the energy required to produce hydrogen out weighs the energy received.

Where is the proof that adding some hydrogen miraculously improves the combustion process??? This would be something easy to verify in a lab.



But my interest is in the fact that fuel manufactures add hydrogen to our current fuels.

What, how where??? See my comment about the hydrogen you claim is "added" to diesel in a previous post.

LPG has the highest hydrogen to carbon ratio of any common automotive fuel. Yet an LPG vehicle burns more fuel than an equivalent petrol vehicle, because the fuel has a lower calorific value / energy content.

[JDNSW]

Every one seems to be missing the point here. Its hydrogen as a supplement fuel to aid the burning of the current fuel. Not as a replacement fuel. There is no doubt that the energy required to produce hydrogen out weighs the energy received. But my interest is in the fact that fuel manufactures add hydrogen to our current fuels. They wouldn’t be doing that solely to reduce there profit margins now would they??
So there must be something in it all

I am reasonably familiar with upstream oil operations, and this is the first time I have ever heard of hydrogen being added to any fuel anywhere (except on an experimental basis, and even then as a separate feed to the engine). If you have a reference to support this I would be interested to see it.

Because of the difficulties in handling hydrogen in an industrial context I would have thought that if it were even an uncommon practice I would have heard of it. In fact I would be surprised if adding hydrogen to diesel fuels (and possibly petrol) would allow them to remain withing legal limits of flash points.

Note that all hydrocarbon and virtually all other fuels such as alcohols and biodiesel contain combined hydrogen, but the proportion of combined hydrogen has no direct relevance to their value as fuels, their combustibility, or any other property, and this combined hydrogen should not be confused with adding hydrogen to the fuel.


john

[Grimace]

all the bitching scientific crap aside. Have we got any further results from the original poster?

I am honestly interested in hearing the latest results.

[tinka82]

i added a point

Maybe we should move the bickering to another thread...


OK how about a "back of the envelope" analysis of these hydrogen electolysis systems (talking about the add-on systems to a petrol or diesel here).

You have an engine running on petrol or diesel, let's say it produces 100kW or power.

The engine is fitted with a 100A Alternator. 100A x 13.5V = 1.35kW (power produced) - it would probably take at least 1.5-2kW of engine power to turn the alternator.

So let's say all of the 1.35kW is available for electrolysis.

Water electrolysis has a theoretical maximum of about 80-90% efficiency (efficiency at converting the electrical energy to H2 + O2) - note that that is theoretical, most systems are much worse.

However let's say we have 80% efficiency. So we get 0.8*1.35 = 1.08kW.

Now a typical engine is at best about 30% efficient at turning fuel into power. WOuld the small amount of hydrogen give you a more efficient burn making the engine more efficient? even a 10% gain here is gaining on the power the other fuel makes also?? seems logicalSo we would really have about 0.3kW of power generated by the fuel.

So - bottom line, is that even if the power of the alternator is "free", and the alternator was ONLY running the electrolysis. We could expect <1% difference in fuel consumption. (also assuming the fuel metering was adjusted to compensate).

[sschmez]

the results so far: (I don't think we'll be getting any)

No more posts on hydrogen on this forum from me.
Cheers
cnorris

I, like some others have been watching this thread since cnorris' original post and it grabbed my interest because I've also heard and read some positive things about the addition of hydrogen gas to the fuel/air mix - petrol or diesel.

My particular interest is in the benefits with a diesel and this thread is about someone's experience with a V8 (my V8 is already running on lpg) which is why I haven't been posting

I don't know if it works or helps, but I'm interested in finding out more.

Like sleepy ... (no assumption from me on level of education)

I am sceptical too cnorris (Sceptical not cynical).
I am happy to be convinced.


A fellow Landy owner and new forum member (no assumption from me on level of education) posts up his experiences in an endeavour to share his experiences and ideas with anyone else who is interested, he even states:

Wanted to find out for myself

a little temporary until I was convinced it worked

my objective is to get results
He's not trying to sell me anything,
He's not trying to part me and my cash,
He doesn't even seem to have a vested interest at all

Then the crap starts and is beautifully summed up (no assumption from me on level of education)by JohnE:


Here we go again,
alternate energies forum someone comes up with an alternate energy device,they have tried and they reckon it works,
then the "resident experts" shoot him down in flames,
thats priceless.

so much for onsite goodwill and a sense of fair play. What does it tell the world, its says come on board dare to say something different and you will be treated like a leper!


After trawling through a bunch of almost irrelevant links (no-one here is claiming to run a V8 purely on hydrogen) and wikipedia entries

I watched my 12 yo daughter amend a Wikipedia page with 3 clicks of the mouse :o

"Look Dad, I'm famous!":blink:
- we're already aware that:

... it takes more to produce than it will produce,

I appreciate the insight and analysis from JDNSW and izuzurover (no assumption from me on level of education) but as clean32 has mentioned:

Every one seems to be missing the point here. Its hydrogen as a supplement fuel to aid the burning of the current fuel. Not as a replacement fuel. There is no doubt that the energy required to produce hydrogen out weighs the energy received

So, (remembering that my interest is in diesel) it seems accepted that lpg fumigation on a diesel motor has benefits. Those benefits are said to be due to the way the combination burns in the motor rather than the calorific content of the lpg which is introduced.
Nothing I've read here or in the posted links answers the question of whether introducing hydrogen can do similar things.

Stevo

McRover
Don't bother replying, you've added very little to this discussion and your track record stands for itself.



"Im not going to bother going into the ins and outs of why it doesnt work" (good)
"No I havnt built one of these systems but I have removed at least 2 of them. (not even sure how many???)
"Maybe tomorrow I should ring Dr Karl on JJJ and ask him" (that'll help)
"...must appologise to clean32, I should have checked" (yep)
"Yeah sorry Clean32, my mistake there.:D" (again)
"....I believe but I may be wrong, I am a lot you know." (yep)

[mrapocalypse]

sschmez..... You Da MAN!!!!!!

That is the best Forum post I have ever read. Use it as a bench mark boys and girls.

[isuzurover]

Schmezz - like you, I am interested, however as a scientist/engineer, I am sceptical (by training and nature).

I (along with everyone else) would be very interested to hear more info from cnorris. However, if someone (even a fellow landie owner) comes out and makes claims without backing them up, surely we can be excused for not taking the claims at face value. Would you believe a random landie owner who walked up to you and told you that he had discovered cold fusion?

The fact is, there are plenty of people who are convinced that:

Hyclones
Fuel catalysts
Brocky's polariser?
The "Firepower" fuel pill
And numerous other snake oil products...

Actually work. Just like JohnE seems convinced that water powered cars work (in opposition to the huge body of scientific knowledge).

I would be very happy if such a system could be proven to make a real difference to diesel engine economy. i.e. I would be HAPPY to be proven wrong

Regarding your post about the diesel/lpg systems. The companies (developers/installers) claim that you typically need about 25L of LPG for every 100L of diesel. So about 25% LPG. As I posted above, the levels of H2 we are talking about here are <<1%.

Tinka - that is of course the claim, but there is no proof that <1% H2 gas in the fuel system can make such a huge difference.

[justinc]

sschmez..... You Da MAN!!!!!!

That is the best Forum post I have ever read. Use it as a bench mark boys and girls.

X2. Should be made a sticky.

JC

[mcrover]

the results so far: (I don't think we'll be getting any)


I, like some others have been watching this thread since cnorris' original post and it grabbed my interest because I've also heard and read some positive things about the addition of hydrogen gas to the fuel/air mix - petrol or diesel.

My particular interest is in the benefits with a diesel and this thread is about someone's experience with a V8 (my V8 is already running on lpg) which is why I haven't been posting

I don't know if it works or helps, but I'm interested in finding out more.

Like sleepy ... (no assumption from me on level of education)


A fellow Landy owner and new forum member (no assumption from me on level of education) posts up his experiences in an endeavour to share his experiences and ideas with anyone else who is interested, he even states:



He's not trying to sell me anything,
He's not trying to part me and my cash,
He doesn't even seem to have a vested interest at all

Then the crap starts and is beautifully summed up (no assumption from me on level of education)by JohnE:



After trawling through a bunch of almost irrelevant links (no-one here is claiming to run a V8 purely on hydrogen) and wikipedia entries

- we're already aware that:


I appreciate the insight and analysis from JDNSW and izuzurover (no assumption from me on level of education) but as clean32 has mentioned:


So, (remembering that my interest is in diesel) it seems accepted that lpg fumigation on a diesel motor has benefits. Those benefits are said to be due to the way the combination burns in the motor rather than the calorific content of the lpg which is introduced.
Nothing I've read here or in the posted links answers the question of whether introducing hydrogen can do similar things.

Stevo

McRover
Don't bother replying, you've added very little to this discussion and your track record stands for itself.


Yes Stevo you make a great point and it is a subject that is worth discussing.....

And thats what we are doing, Discussing it :D

There is more than just a possitive side to a discussion, if there is to be a propper technical discussion where anyone is to learn anything then you have to look at both sides of the coin and not just agree agree agree as if nothing was challenged then nothing would be learned.

You have done a great job of editing again as well as I have also said that I will be happy to be prooven wrong several times but you didnt post that.

I cant stop anyone from building one but I do have the ability to question if it works and make reference to reasons why it wont/cant work.

I have also CLEARLY posted that the system I was talking about as was Isuzurover were supplementary systems and I even explained in depth how one would get it to actually show some of what is claimed and yet apparently we are still talking about running a car solely on Hydrogen.

Please before any of you guys post up any more, go back through the posts and read them properly and stop just skimming over them as your the ones getting the wrong idea.

It seems that if you ask these guys to actually proove their system works then it starts getting nasty and things go south.

My track record with a small group off this forum who now dont frequent it all that often has nothing to do with Hydrogen generation in motor vehicals and so there for has nothing to do with this thread.

Stop worrying about the past and get on with the future Stevo, thats what this is all about.

Now people, KEEP IT REAL :D

[clean32]

i am thinking, pot kettel??


Yes Stevo you make a great point and it is a subject that is worth discussing.....

And thats what we are doing, Discussing it :D

There is more than just a possitive side to a discussion, if there is to be a propper technical discussion where anyone is to learn anything then you have to look at both sides of the coin and not just agree agree agree as if nothing was challenged then nothing would be learned.

You have done a great job of editing again as well as I have also said that I will be happy to be prooven wrong several times but you didnt post that.

I cant stop anyone from building one but I do have the ability to question if it works and make reference to reasons why it wont/cant work.

I have also CLEARLY posted that the system I was talking about as was Isuzurover were supplementary systems and I even explained in depth how one would get it to actually show some of what is claimed and yet apparently we are still talking about running a car solely on Hydrogen.

Please before any of you guys post up any more, go back through the posts and read them properly and stop just skimming over them as your the ones getting the wrong idea.

It seems that if you ask these guys to actually proove their system works then it starts getting nasty and things go south.

My track record with a small group off this forum who now dont frequent it all that often has nothing to do with Hydrogen generation in motor vehicals and so there for has nothing to do with this thread.

Stop worrying about the past and get on with the future Stevo, thats what this is all about.

Now people, KEEP IT REAL :D

[drivesafe]

Quite a number of you have been nothing short of down right abusive to the point that the original posted, cnorris, is no longer responding to the thread.

We all have opinions and if you wish to voice your opinion on a subject, by all means do so, but this does not give anyone the right to try to belittle someone else just because of their own opinion on the same subject differs from yours.

As the behaviour of some of the respondents on this thread are directly responsible for cnorris choosing not to participate any further in this tread and as it was cnorris’s hard work that was being unfairly attacked, the thread is closed.