Diesel Vs Petrol

[ghoti]

So as I look for a replacement for my 2007 TDV6 HSE I came accross this ad
in carsales.com.au that basically disses the diesels.

"For anyone who is worried about V8's V's Diesel, i have done in depth
research on this and found the following. As a general rule diesels are only
about 20% on average more efficient than Petrol's. The Diesel 3.0ltr Prado is
only 12% (most inefficient), it is cheaper to run the 4.2ltr Land Cruiser in this
case. Diesel fuel is currently 15% dearer than Petrol. Diesels are more
expensive to service. (Check with the dealer), Dearer to Purchase. There
isnt any real gain by having a Diesel, it is a knee jerk reaction to the cost of
fuel today. There slow, do not tow well, particularly at any decent speed,
there noisey and feel very agricultural."

Now, my TDV6 towed a 2 tonne boat with ease up to 110Kmh, certainly
seemed nimble around town, averaged 10l/100km (or 12l/100Km towing),
and was ceratinly comfortable.

Are the V8's really that much better, or is my suspicion of an overly
desparate seller more likely to be correct?

For those interested the add is at carsales.com.au (http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars/private/LAND_ROVER/DISCOVERY_3/details.aspx?__sid=11C442825B03&Cr=0&__Ns=pCar_PrivateSpecialFlag_Int32|1||pCar_ImageCo unt_Int32|1||pCar_LastModifiedDate_DateTime|1&State=Victoria&distance=25&silo=1003&seot=0&__Nne=20&Model=DISCOVERY%203&R=5831177&__N=4294965541+82+834+285+257+4294954915+1216&Make=LAND%20ROVER&state_id=82&trecs=9)

Cheers,
Scott

[Blknight.aus]

if you skew the facts enough hes correct.

when im abusing and towing heavy with big red the fuel return is actually worse than a very well driven 3.9l v8 disco1

some are more expensive to service and occasionally a service needs more expensive parts (injectors vs sparkplugs) but look at how long a set of injectors lasts vs a set a plugs.



but my money is on someone whose bought a v8 something and has found out that he cant support its drinking habit with his driving style.

[DirtyDawg]

Replacement for a one year old car:eek: what sort of w.....*self edited*

[JDNSW]

Fuel consumption with petrol engines varies much more than it does with diesels, for example between city and country driving, so any comparison can be slanted according to what you want to prove.

But fuel cost is not the only consideration. Even 20% better economy translates straight into 20% longer range, which can either mean not carrying extra fuel or simply in town mean more choice where and when to buy it.

And even if servicing is cheaper for a petrol engine (is it?), as a general rule, diesels are more durable.

But - what is the biggest cost in running a vehicle? No, it is not fuel. It is depreciation, by a long way (usually at least twice the cost per kilometre that fuel is). Now as you may have noticed, "V8" is a dirty word when trying to sell a second hand car. Yep, right - depreciation can be expected to be a lot more on a V8 petrol. In general, this will swamp the relatively small difference in fuel costs. (and does this perhaps suggest why he is talking about it anyway?)

John

[willvine]

I do agree with the add to some point. As I am selling my V8 disco and this is the pitch I have used to sell mine also. I have just returned from a trip to cape york with the disco and am very happy with the fuel economy.

Here are the stats.

9650 kms

1351.00 litres of fuel used

$2528.00 cost of fuel

=14 liters per 100.

I had 3 people, full lenth roof cage fully loaded, tools,spares, (very heavy)

We did the OTT, frenchmans, plus many other tracks and farting around but mainly highway driving at 100 kms I have big tyres and bullbar, winch, dual batt and lots of other stuff.

Mine is a D2, So driven the right way a V8 can be cheaper to run than a diesel but this does depend on your driving style and what you are doing with it.

A mate did the same trip last year with his TD5 and I think although he would have had better range the cost of diesel on his trip and mine petrol was only about $200.00 dollars in his favour, but I will check with him on this again. Plus a $900 dollar dealer service oposed to my $400 service before we left.


Will

[ozscott]

I dont want to start a war but I cannot sit around and see a statement that diesels are generally more durable without adding what I reckon is relevant clarification - modern petrol motors are just as durable as modern diesels. Go back 15 years to either naturally aspirated Diesels or the first of the turbos in 4wd and yes they were in the main more durable than petrols - usually posting considerably more miles. Petrol motors these days are getting built to do more miles and the TDs are getting built to a weight and economy factor that reduces there miles. The modern ford transit TD in the deefer is built as a 250,000 mile engine. A disco V8 properly serviced with its chrome molly bores will do that.

BTW when its time to re-co a modern diesel (which often means replace entirely) the costs are unbelievable - you could do the petrol 3 times over in many cases compared to recoing one diesel. The modern diesels are too light for the massive combustion pressures and run modern electronics that are very expensive - eg ceramic piezzo injectors (at $1500 + per injector). They are not high mileage engines compared to the old ones.

I can see that some poor buggers will buy modern 4wds with TDs and the motor will blow (like is happening to many prados that are now 4-5 years old...) and the cost of the replacement motor will be so high that it exceeds the cost of buying a whole new vehicle with a good running engine in it of the same type. Can you imagine that feeling.

Cheers

[ozscott]

I posted my figures on LPG V8 in another thread yesterday...LPG V8 is considerably cheaper even counting the LPG install costs (which still see the diesel purchase price higher than petrol with LPG) than diesel....and dont even go to the aural aspects.

Cheers
\
PS. Can someone pls pass the popcorn:D

[ghoti]

Replacement for a one year old car:eek: what sort of w.....*self edited*

My son put the Disco into a couple of trees, assorted shrubs and a couple of
fence posts. Fell asleep at the wheel with crusie control set at 100kmh.

Hence the need for a replacement. . .

[jmkoffice]

Why don't trucks, diesel electric trains, buses, big generators etc use petrol engines?

Is it true the Renault, Peugeot and VW diesel cars have a comsumption of around 5L/100 km? Do the petrol models have similar mileage?

[JDNSW]

I dont want to start a war but I cannot sit around and see a statement that diesels are generally more durable without adding what I reckon is relevant clarification - modern petrol motors are just as durable as modern diesels. Go back 15 years to either naturally aspirated Diesels or the first of the turbos in 4wd and yes they were in the main more durable than petrols - usually posting considerably more miles. Petrol motors these days are getting built to do more miles and the TDs are getting built to a weight and economy factor that reduces there miles. The modern ford transit TD in the deefer is built as a 250,000 mile engine. A disco V8 properly serviced with its chrome molly bores will do that.

BTW when its time to re-co a modern diesel (which often means replace entirely) the costs are unbelievable - you could do the petrol 3 times over in many cases compared to recoing one diesel. The modern diesels are too light for the massive combustion pressures and run modern electronics that are very expensive - eg ceramic piezzo injectors (at $1500 + per injector). They are not high mileage engines compared to the old ones.

I can see that some poor buggers will buy modern 4wds with TDs and the motor will blow (like is happening to many prados that are now 4-5 years old...) and the cost of the replacement motor will be so high that it exceeds the cost of buying a whole new vehicle with a good running engine in it of the same type. Can you imagine that feeling.

Cheers


Actually there is a lot of truth in what you are saying, which is why I was a bit hesitant about putting that bit in. But there are two points I would make - firstly, modern diesels are not so much less durable than the older ones, as they are far less forgiving of even minor mistreatment than their predecessors - the examples you give of engines "blowing" are not lack of durability, but the fact that the engine (or injectors or....) can be destroyed by what would have been a minor incident (dirty or bad fuel, water in fuel, momentary overheating due to loss of coolant) with perhaps some loss of performance in their predecessors. And as you say, the repair costs are absolutely ridiculous.

But modern petrol engines can be just as bad if not worse - for example the first Freelander engines, and I can think of a few others. If you are comparing the Rover V8 with the Transit engine, you are comparing a fifty year old petrol design with a new diesel design.

However, as you correctly state, in the absence of catastrophic failure, and given reasonable maintenance, many modern petrol engines have far longer life expectancies than their predecessors - but parts for them are also ridiculously expensive. It is the older designs that tend to have reasonably priced parts.

John

[feraldisco]

My son put the Disco into a couple of trees, assorted shrubs and a couple of
fence posts. Fell asleep at the wheel with crusie control set at 100kmh.

Hence the need for a replacement. . .

I think that will put Dirty Dawg back in his box fairly effectively...

[CaverD3]

I came accross this ad
in carsales.com.au that basically disses the diesels.

"For anyone who is worried about V8's V's Diesel, i have done in depth
research on this and found the following. As a general rule diesels are only
about 20% on average more efficient than Petrol's. The Diesel 3.0ltr Prado is
only 12% (most inefficient), it is cheaper to run the 4.2ltr Land Cruiser in this
case. Diesel fuel is currently 15% dearer than Petrol. Diesels are more
expensive to service. (Check with the dealer), Dearer to Purchase. There
isnt any real gain by having a Diesel, it is a knee jerk reaction to the cost of
fuel today. There slow, do not tow well, particularly at any decent speed,
there noisey and feel very agricultural."

Now, my TDV6 towed a 2 tonne boat with ease up to 110Kmh, certainly
seemed nimble around town, averaged 10l/100km (or 12l/100Km towing),
and was ceratinly comfortable.

Are the V8's really that much better, or is my suspicion of an overly
desparate seller more likely to be correct?


Cheers,
Scott

Look at the diesels he is comparing. They are antiquated Jap diesels. :angel: No wonder he says they are noisey and agricultural. Fairly tpical attidude of Oz motoring press towards deisels, and ignorance of modern euro engines though.
The TDV6 is a much smoother and quieter. I have not chosen a diesel due to economy alone. It would have made more financial sense to get a V8 when I got mine (could have got the HSE for the less than the SE TDV6) I like how a diesel behaves, the torque is better particulary off road. TDV8 would be better :D but that is a want not a need.

[Leo]

Replacement for a one year old car:eek: what sort of w.....*self edited*

Is it anybody else's business? Still a free world.

I don't think it's as simple as petrol vs diesel. Some diesels are better than others and the same goes for petrol engines. You need to look at the particular make and model that you're interested in and see what's on offer. For example, the Disco3 petrol V6 is a fairly old-tech engine and (even according to official LR figures) has worse consumption than the larger V8 but many just assume that because it's smaller and less powerful it will be better on petrol.

You need to look specifically at the engines available for the car you want and go from there.

Durability wise, I'm with ozscott - the modern turbo diesels have very fine tolerances when it comes to fuel quality etc, and when something does go wrong, it's pretty expensive to put right.

Anyone who says a modern turbo diesel is slow and noisey hasn't driven one.

[ghoti]

Thanks for the discussion folks.

I think my suspicion of an overly eager vendor may be correct. My TDV6
certainly towed well, crusied effortlessly, and sipped the fuel. I didn't have
the TDV6 long enough to comment on durability but suspect that with any
modern engine the (Fine_Tolerance + Light_Weight) x Ring_every_Kw_out =
less_durability.

Living in the hills and towing a heavy boat I was impressed how effortlessly
the diesel towed the boat (contrary to the advertisers claim that they
"do not tow well").

I think I'll stick with the oil burner!

[300+]

I've got a V8 D3 and I'm happy with the purchase. Economy is acceptable. Welly is very acceptable, servicing is acceptable, etc.

I don't do enough miles for it ever to be cheaper to have a diseasel. If I was in the UK with the costs of fuel it may well be different, but given the economics of Australia today there isn't much in it.

Buy the one you want and be happy with it.

Steve

[Dougal]

Why don't trucks, diesel electric trains, buses, big generators etc use petrol engines?

Is it true the Renault, Peugeot and VW diesel cars have a comsumption of around 5L/100 km? Do the petrol models have similar mileage?

Stick a modern turbo diesel car on a flat road at 100km/h and watch the fuel computer reading 3.X litres per 100km.:cool:
Thrash it and average 5.X litres per 100km.

I only own one vehicle which is petrol powered, it'll be traded for a diesel in a year or so.

[rovercare]

Replacement for a one year old car:eek: what sort of w.....*self edited*


My son put the Disco into a couple of trees, assorted shrubs and a couple of
fence posts. Fell asleep at the wheel with crusie control set at 100kmh.

Hence the need for a replacement. . .

Man, even I think that calls for an apology Dirtydawg:eek:

[big guy]

I have a Golf 2.0 Tdi. City use 7l/100. Highway 5L/100.
Very quiet, 6 speed DSG auto.
Great car.
Disco V8 on gas is also in my shed and looking to get a D3 or L322 V8 later.
I just love the V8. Love the sound and power.

Call me a rev head.


If we all had the same opinion on cars we would all be driving Golfs because they are as good as the magazines make them out to be.

We` are not all the same thank God and have our own opinions.

So lets all live happily ever after and as long as we have a Landy, the rest just doesn't matter.

[CaverD3]

I have a Golf 2.0 Tdi. City use 7l/100. Highway 5L/100.
Very quiet, 6 speed DSG auto.
Great car.


Got the same Golf great car, really flies. :D First one I got was a lemon and they had to replace though. :(

Have two diesels Golf 2.0 TDI and the D3. Modern diesels give you tractable power very easy to drive.:D

[Dingmark Jim]

I have a diesel sedan (Rover 75) that SWMBO and I are delighted with and wanted to get a diesel Disco3. Two years ago, I was all set to purchase a TDV6 SE when what popped up, but a demo HSE V8 for $65k. Took a big "gulp" thinking about fuel costs, then bought it. I couldn't be happier. Absolutely nothing wrong with the engine and if driven sensibly it gets 14.5 /100km (with heavy load, rooftop tent, ARB bar). Even with $1400 for the extra fuel tank (so my range is well into the TDV6 zone) it was a good deal. I intend to drive it into oblivion (but hopefully not into the trees whilst asleep :( ) so trade-in value isn't an issue. If I regularly towed a heavy trailer then the TDV6 would probably be a more sensible choice. However, the sound out of the RAI when at full throttle is a non-sensible delight. I therefore conclude that the technologies of both diesel engines (and fuel) and petrol engines has improved a lot and the current vehicle and fuel pricing is such that a decision can go either way based on specific uses. The cost of 19" tyres is more of a sore spot:eek:

[duncanw]

I've got a V8 and I can't stand driving deisels, that's not to say they are useless, I just think they are the engine of satan and should be banned from the roads.

I get 15L / 100km, my old man in his TD5 gets 10L / 100km. His is better for towing and has more torque. But it sounds like crap and comes complete with a james bond smoke screen when he floors it.

There's probably a good reason why trucks are diesel, if petrol engines were cheaper to run and maintain they would use petrol engines.

[Dougal]

If a TD5 is smoking, it's probably being starved of air. Check the aircleaner and intake hoses.

[ozscott]

The truck comparison is no comparison in my opinion

[hodgo]

Why don't trucks, diesel electric trains, buses, big generators etc use petrol engines?

Is it true the Renault, Peugeot and VW diesel cars have a comsumption of around 5L/100 km? Do the petrol models have similar mileage?

__________________________________________________ _____________

My son has a VW passat diesel and he is getting 5.6l / 100 on the open road Brisbane to Townsville is 1400 ks one fillup is required near end of trip
About 2 yrs ago I took a LWB Ford transit Van ( Diesel ) from Sydney to Townsville could have made the trip with one refueling from menory I think the fuel tank cap was about 85 Lts

[garryc]

Why don't trucks, diesel electric trains, buses, big generators etc use petrol engines?

Is it true the Renault, Peugeot and VW diesel cars have a comsumption of around 5L/100 km? Do the petrol models have similar mileage?
My Bro. has a 2litre Pug 307, 6spd auto and gets 5L/100 without trying on a trip. I just did the Cape trip in my D3 TdV6 and got 11.8L/100 overall. We did all the rough tracks where possible. With bullbar, kaymar and 2nd spare, long range tank and beer, all up 3100kg. Met some guys with 4.8litre Patrols on the way and when I asked about fuel consumption, was told 700km from 210litre tank(30L/100) :eek:

[PhilipA]

You blokes might be interested in what a VW director has just said.
Volkswagen talks down diesel in Aust - New Zealand's source for motoring news on Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4713646a30.html)

Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

Just to add to that, a friend has just been in UK and hired a 1.8 litre Vectra.
He was surprised to get 44MPG overall during his rental. That is about 5.5-5.8 AFAIR.
So the latest petrol engines are also very economical, and the latest VW Tsi technology has even more promise.

I guess Land Rover needed a cheapo engine for the D3 and so used the Exploder engine which is a derivative of the 3litre "Essex" which started back in the 60s ( shades of V8). Once again a symptom of Land Rover not having much money.
But the $10000 price difference between the petrol and diesel sure buys lots of petrol.
I was idly pondering which D3 and theoretically I am still undecided. The retained value % s seem similar from what I have seen.
Regard sPhilip A

[ghoti]

But the $10000 price difference between the petrol and diesel sure buys lots of petrol.
I was idly pondering which D3 and theoretically I am still undecided. The retained value % s seem similar from what I have seen.
Regard sPhilip A

We had our lease company run "Total Lifetime Cost" figures for the petrol and
diesel D3's prior to intial purchase. Over 3 years with estimated 35,000km per
year 15% heavy towing and considering service costs, estimated resale etc.

The premium you pay on a diesel is not expected to be fully recouped on
resale and ceratinly accounts for the increased consumption of the petrol D3.
Given the heavy towing (and four kids on board) the numbers came out line
ball, but we went the diesel as I thought it would tow better.

[Dougal]

You blokes might be interested in what a VW director has just said.
Volkswagen talks down diesel in Aust - New Zealand's source for motoring news on Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4713646a30.html)

Regards Philip A

It sounded to me like a PR guy trying to boost sales of the TSi and the DSG. Afterall, the VW tdi's sell themselves.
Here they sold more than 50% tdi's in the first year they offered them.
44mpg in an astra is good for a petrol but very poor for a diesel, $25k gets you a brand new diesel kia which can do 90mpg on a flat road at 80km/h.

Solar challenge results anyone?

Those doing cost comparisons on petrol vs diesel should take into account the miserable resale of petrol V8 powered rangerovers. A 12 year old P38 goes for about $10k here. The diesel ones go for about double, occasionally have double the km on them and originally sold for a lot less.

[29dinosaur]

I have owned a 300tdi which went belly up and now have a V8D2 purchased at low kms and what then was reasonbale price. All the bad press over the td5 scared me off plus 6mths ago they were $5-6K more than a V8. Now TD5 D2 have dropped in price (as have V8D2s)..... boy I feel like an idiot pulling up at a servo having only managed to get 20mpg at best on local town driving and then pumping in $110 worth of petrol. I'm in a queue for lpging but somehow am not feeling good about the loss in range with lpg. (I have chosen to replace whole of petrol tank with lpg tank which fits in place of petrol tank. I didn't want to lose space.) When I have the $ I will put in the conversion for the diff lock (1999-2000) model.

What are the best tips in tuning a V8 so as to get better economy or is it just that I have a lead foot?

[WhiteD3]

There was a debate on the forum about this some time ago, ie V6SE vs TDV6 SE. I thought the (near) consensus was that the V6 was by far the better buy based on pure economics (Price, running costs, resale) but if you wanted range or towing capability, the TDV6 won hands down.

I would have gotten the TDV6 but didn't have a lazy 18k to blow on top of the V6.

[Dougal]

I would have gotten the TDV6 but didn't have a lazy 18k to blow on top of the V6.

Wow, $18k premium.
Here we don't get the exploder motor. It's V8 or TDV6. Same price $NZ110k.