Why hide the reg number in photos?

[simonl8353]

Can anyone tell me why many folk here mask/black out their registration numbers in photographs of their vehicles. :huh: ??

I dont understand !

[dullbird]

Just a privacy thing really....like not disclosing your name on the web

thats right


Lou :D:eek:

[walker]

Can anyone tell me why many folk here mask/black out their registration numbers in photographs of their vehicles. :huh: ??

I dont understand !

It has happened (not on this forum but another) where someone had a photo of their 4wd up but it was not engineered or was not legal and someone else on the forum dobbed them in to the Road traffic authority and they were prosecuted.

[dullbird]

you know what walker everytime i see your avatar it just cracks me up... :D

i see it so many times and still to this day it makes me smile :)

[Tombie]

Can anyone tell me why many folk here mask/black out their registration numbers in photographs of their vehicles. :huh: ??

I dont understand !

It's called paranoid :twisted:

Hundreds of people see the plate / vehicle every day...

I dont see the hassle!

Heres the Disco + Rego
http://gallery.mac.com/rovertech/100016/IMG_0311/web.jpg

The Bikes + Rego
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


I've got nothing to hide!


The only thing I dont want is pictures of my number plates and a letter from Police Camera Operations :angel:

[Tombie]

It has happened (not on this forum but another) where someone had a photo of their 4wd up but it was not engineered or was not legal and someone else on the forum dobbed them in to the Road traffic authority and they were prosecuted.

And in that case they deserve it :cool:

[Psimpson7]

The Bikes + Rego
http://gallery.mac.com/rovertech/100113/IMG_0021/web.jpg


:angel:

Someone seems to have stolen all your grass:p

[Phoenix]

Insurance companies and vehicle damage are another reason why people hide them

[Redback]

Someone seems to have stolen all your grass:p

They did it by looking at his number plate;)

Should have blanked it out, he'd still have grass if he did:D

[Tombie]

Someone seems to have stolen all your grass:p

I hate grass, and believe in this country we shouldnt have a lot of it anyway..

Should have native gardens... Doesnt get much more native than soil :cool:

You can see my poor workshop conditions at the moment!

The workshop arrived on the truck this morning, so soon there will be a workshop in the back yard :cool:;):banana:

[ariddell]

Done very frequently in the UK since plate cloning is a huge problem.

Over there you can walk into any car accessory shop/order over the net and have any plate you like made without any questions asked.

Very easy for someone to find a pic of a car same make/model/colour to theirs from pics on the net and just clone your plate so any fines etc go to you rather than them or to stick on a stolen car.

Not so much of an issue over here however i wouldn't have thought where the supply of the plates is controled so you can't just have them made.

[Tombie]

Done very frequently in the UK since plate cloning is a huge problem.

Over there you can walk into any car accessory shop/order over the net and have any plate you like made without any questions asked.

Very easy for someone to find a pic of a car same make/model/colour to theirs from pics on the net and just clone your plate so any fines etc go to you rather than them or to stick on a stolen car.

Not so much of an issue over here however i wouldn't have thought where the supply of the plates is controled so you can't just have them made.

Yeah OK, but lets say I have a white disco...

How hard is it to 'find' a white disco and write down the rego ;)

OK the net makes it marginally quicker, but doesnt have any bearing on it happening...

In SA with fuel prices the common thing is to steal a plate in a carpark (any plate) and go fuel up and do a drive-off....

Its just a random plate off any car they come across...

[Tombie]

They did it by looking at his number plate;)

Should have blanked it out, he'd still have grass if he did:D

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::TakeABow:

Considering everyone knows I live in Whyalla, I can assure you, drive into town, ask someone where "Tombraider" lives or, "wheres the guy with the big blue bike live" and someone will tell you how to get to my house, my work...etc. etc...

[Utemad]

I blank my own for a little bit of added privacy and other peoples as a courtesy.

[Utemad]

wheres the guy with the big blue bike live

I think your bike has bigger wheels than my Disco!

[waynep]

I guess we all need to be a bit careful about "identity theft" these days.
Having your rego is perhaps another piece of data an "undesirable" could put together with other info to steal an identity.

[abaddonxi]

There is a variation on the Nigerian bank account scam that needs rego, vin, etc. to run in Australia.

Commonly, advertise whatever vehicle for sale in the paper, saying owner has moved overseas suddenly for work, car is in storage, storage company will release on confirmation from seller of receipt of money via Western Union.

You ask for details to check REVS, and they happily offer up details that they've taken off ebay or another ad. Confirmation that there is a real car goes a long way in the suspension of disbelief that this is scam.

I had a game of email tag with a guy trying to pull this a few years ago. I even offered him transfer via escrow, or for a mate to meet him with the cash in London, somehow was only interested in Western Union.:D

Not the same thing on a forum, but I think that might be where it comes from.

Cheers
Simon

[dobbo]

I guess we all need ot be a bit careful about "identity theft" these days.
Having your rego is perhaps another piece of data an "undesirable" could put together with other info to steal an identity.



We drive landy's


We are the undesirables

[DiscoStew]

Someone seems to have stolen all your grass:p

It looks like he may be trying to grow some carpet grass under the bikes.:angel:


I guess we all need ot be a bit careful about "identity theft" these days.
Having your rego is perhaps another piece of data an "undesirable" could put together with other info to steal an identity.

I agree in principle but a rego number coupled with your name and street address would be much more useful than a rego number, forum name and locality so the bigger risk is someone walking past your house, stealing your mail and writing down your rego number.

It's all about risk v probability and in this case IMHO the probability is so low that the risk becomes irrelevant. and who would want to steal my identity anyway. I think they would go for someone much more interesting/wealthy :D.

[crump]

I did a photoshoot for a mag recently and the first thing they did was cover the rego plates.:eek:

[Rockrover]

I remember reading about a Jeep forum (I think) in Brisbane.

The guy on there did a build up of all his modifications. Somebody on the forum too exception to them and dobbed him into the Traffic Authority.

He got an unplanned visit from an inspector as they actually got his details from a photo of a trailer rego in his yard. the inspector had a full printout of the thread and pulled it apart modification by modification. I understand it cost him a hell of a lot of money to get it all redone

Whether you say that he should have engineered it or not is another argument. I guess there are alot of 4by's out there guilty of having unengineered modifications but to get pinged off a forum is pretty crook in my opinion.

[scarry]

I remember reading about a Jeep forum (I think) in Brisbane.

The guy on there did a build up of all his modifications. Somebody on the forum too exception to them and dobbed him into the Traffic Authority.

He got an unplanned visit from an inspector as they actually got his details from a photo of a trailer rego in his yard. the inspector had a full printout of the thread and pulled it apart modification by modification. I understand it cost him a hell of a lot of money to get it all redone

Whether you say that he should have engineered it or not is another argument. I guess there are alot of 4by's out there guilty of having unengineered modifications but to get pinged off a forum is pretty crook in my opinion.

doesnt worry me i got nothing to hide,so who cares.i still recon this google earth thing is more of a worry

maybe they googled tombies place & went and stole his grass:o

[VladTepes]

I think it's all paranoia.

The more we "hide" the more people assume we have to hide.

[Tote]

The main reason for not revealing number plates on online forums is that it gives someone who may want to find out about you the opportunity to collect pieces of linked information. It is frighteningly easy these days to gather data on people without their consent.
Suppose I had a HG350 Monaro in the shed and I posted on a Holden forum a picture of my $100k plus machine taking care to not put any identifying features in the photos and blanking the number plates. I would feel secure that the car was no more exposed than when I drove it down the street on Friday night.
EXCEPT that I also post on the Land Rover forum as I have a TD5 Disco that always has the 3 amigos and find all the technical help here wonerful, I also post a few more details about myself such as the location where I live. I also sell some Landrover bits on Ebay occasionally and because I'm lazy I use my AULRO username on ebay. With a few Google searches the professional thief who is in the market for a Monaro can easily find these things about me, all he has to do is to buy my spare disco rim that I have on Ebay and in all likelyhood he has found the address that houses my Monaro.

This scenario is all made up but I'm sure that you can see the relevence of maintaining as much online privacy as possible.

Regards,
Tote

[Tombie]

I think it's all paranoia.

The more we "hide" the more people assume we have to hide.

Bingo!!!

The day they begin a DNA database I'll happily walk in and be catalogued..

If it saves my butt, covers me, identifies me etc... I have no issue.

[Tombie]

The main reason for not revealing number plates on online forums is that it gives someone who may want to find out about you the opportunity to collect pieces of linked information. It is frighteningly easy these days to gather data on people without their consent.
Suppose I had a HG350 Monaro in the shed and I posted on a Holden forum a picture of my $100k plus machine taking care to not put any identifying features in the photos and blanking the number plates. I would feel secure that the car was no more exposed than when I drove it down the street on Friday night.
EXCEPT that I also post on the Land Rover forum as I have a TD5 Disco that always has the 3 amigos and find all the technical help here wonerful, I also post a few more details about myself such as the location where I live. I also sell some Landrover bits on Ebay occasionally and because I'm lazy I use my AULRO username on ebay. With a few Google searches the professional thief who is in the market for a Monaro can easily find these things about me, all he has to do is to buy my spare disco rim that I have on Ebay and in all likelyhood he has found the address that houses my Monaro.

This scenario is all made up but I'm sure that you can see the relevence of maintaining as much online privacy as possible.

Regards,
Tote

And nowadays he's more likely to 'car jack' your monaro whilst doing the friday night drive...

At which time 2000 people looked at your car, 50 snapped photos of it with their mobile, 20 of them forwarded those pics to a friend...

At least 5 cars spotted you turning into your street...

And your neighbour told his mates about this great monaro his neighbour has...



ONLINE has very little relevance in relation to your property or personal details being used for mischief..



Privacy has NOTHING to do with it....



BTW, I can get your VIN etc much easier by walking up to your car, reading the VIN plate in the lower corner of the glass...
Add your Rego plate etc...


Get over it... Someone has been watching us all for a very long time!

[Tote]

And nowadays he's more likely to 'car jack' your monaro whilst doing the friday night drive...

At which time 2000 people looked at your car, 50 snapped photos of it with their mobile, 20 of them forwarded those pics to a friend...

At least 5 cars spotted you turning into your street...

And your neighbour told his mates about this great monaro his neighbour has...



ONLINE has very little relevance in relation to your property or personal details being used for mischief..



Privacy has NOTHING to do with it....



BTW, I can get your VIN etc much easier by walking up to your car, reading the VIN plate in the lower corner of the glass...
Add your Rego plate etc...


Get over it... Someone has been watching us all for a very long time!

I would disagree, 30 years ago it was entirely possible that you could drive to meet someone at a pre arranged location and you would have an expectation that the conversation would remain private. Today you could make no such assumption, this is what technology has changed about privacy.
Similarly the professional theif could simply carjack you but he now has the capability to do much more research to improve his chances of success without incurring any risk himself.
All of this probably does not matter to most people as every day we trade privacy for some gain, eg using the 4c a litre discount dockets allows the supermarket companies to datamine your buying habits but people should be aware that they no longer have "privacy " by default like they had 30 years ago.

Regards,
Tote

[simonl8353]

Gotta agree with the dude that sold his grass to buy a fat tyre.:D

Small story..at a place I may (or may not) have worked before, the man (or woman) that was (or not) the MD had the new Honda S2000 car jacked.

Usual daily pattern, drive out the factory, get out of car to lock factory gate, (engine running) turn around....this time car being driven off by somone else, never found it again. Pattern, Opportunity, easy a candy from a baby.

I think the real threat of loosing a typical $5k to $40k car is more in our daily habits being watched and/or then an opportunity presenting itself for somone else to grab, rather than hours and hours of meticulus planning over the internet.

[Tombie]

I think your bike has bigger wheels than my Disco!

:D It's wider (physically) than my 265's

And thats the "old" tyre... Yesterday I fitted the new tyre... It's 20mm wider again :cool:

[VladTepes]

Yep

[Tombie]

Gotta agree with the dude that sold his grass to buy a fat tyre.:D

Small story..at a place I may (or may not) have worked before, the man (or woman) that was (or not) the MD had the new Honda S2000 car jacked.

Usual daily pattern, drive out the factory, get out of car to lock factory gate, (engine running) turn around....this time car being driven off by somone else, never found it again. Pattern, Opportunity, easy a candy from a baby.

I think the real threat of loosing a typical $5k to $40k car is more in our daily habits being watched and/or then an opportunity presenting itself for somone else to grab, rather than hours and hours of meticulus planning over the internet.

My 3 month old XR6 was stolen from a workshop where I was having the guards rolled and pumped - Whilst I was sitting in the workshop office...

Opportunity.. Keys.. Busy workshop in a small industrial block...

Gone!!!! (Found stripped at Pt Wakefield Shooting Range 48 hours later)

This was the replacement vehicle for the XE ESP that was outside a mates when I went for a smoke, and gone 10 minutes later when I came back out to drive home...

It was locked etc, but they popped the door, pushed it down the road, keyed the lock... And then put it through a 'stobbie' (telegraph pole made of concrete and steel) then into the wall of a house at 170km/h (according to Crash investigators)...Less than 20 minutes later... :(

My house in Adelaide was invaded whilst the wife slept on the lounge and I was working in Whyalla...

They broke in, took jewelery and her handbag...

Got her birthcertificate, drivers licence, credit cards, keys etc...

We had the house re-keyed next day...

Emma came to Whyalla for the weekend to see me...

They came back, broke into the back door of the shed, moved everything to the roller doors, pulled up with a trailer, and gutted my shed, all my tools, bikes, etc... everything...

Opportunity.....

We now have passwords on the Credit Agency site, should someone try to get a loan etc... we are immediately called... Only time we've been called was when we applied for a loan... Good to see it works!

[TimNZ]

Or just hide your plate with water..........


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/735.jpg

Tim

[Redback]

My 3 month old XR6 was stolen from a workshop where I was having the guards rolled and pumped - Whilst I was sitting in the workshop office...

Opportunity.. Keys.. Busy workshop in a small industrial block...

Gone!!!! (Found stripped at Pt Wakefield Shooting Range 48 hours later)

This was the replacement vehicle for the XE ESP that was outside a mates when I went for a smoke, and gone 10 minutes later when I came back out to drive home...

It was locked etc, but they popped the door, pushed it down the road, keyed the lock... And then put it through a 'stobbie' (telegraph pole made of concrete and steel) then into the wall of a house at 170km/h (according to Crash investigators)...Less than 20 minutes later... :(

My house in Adelaide was invaded whilst the wife slept on the lounge and I was working in Whyalla...

They broke in, took jewelery and her handbag...

Got her birthcertificate, drivers licence, credit cards, keys etc...

We had the house re-keyed next day...

Emma came to Whyalla for the weekend to see me...

They came back, broke into the back door of the shed, moved everything to the roller doors, pulled up with a trailer, and gutted my shed, all my tools, bikes, etc... everything...

Opportunity.....

We now have passwords on the Credit Agency site, should someone try to get a loan etc... we are immediately called... Only time we've been called was when we applied for a loan... Good to see it works!

So the loan was to buy the carpet to cover the dirt where the grass used too be,
























you'll need another loan, that's not enough carpet:wasntme:

[Offender90]

We now have passwords on the Credit Agency site, should someone try to get a loan etc... we are immediately called... Only time we've been called was when we applied for a loan... Good to see it works!

Been wanting to do this for ages, but didn't think it possible. (Ever since reading "The Art of the Steal" and realising I was a good candidate. Moved a few too many times and was not / am not vigilant enough when it comes to redirecting mail.

Any hints on how to apply for one Tombie?

[EchiDna]

geez tombie, get the flock out of Adelaide... if I had that amount of stuff done to me, you wouldn't see me for dust (in the front yard or anywhere!).

[walker]

Bingo!!!

The day they begin a DNA database I'll happily walk in and be catalogued..

If it saves my butt, covers me, identifies me etc... I have no issue.


You couldn't hide if you wanted too! :o:p:p:p

[Tombie]

geez tombie, get the flock out of Adelaide... if I had that amount of stuff done to me, you wouldn't see me for dust (in the front yard or anywhere!).

I did ;)

Moved to a place of no Grass, just lowly carpet growing in patches :D

I can say I take my Landy off-road every night :cool: (I could anyhow, bush tracks are less than 5 minutes away) but can't wait for the workshop to be assembled (it arrived today, just got to put it up) then I can put the bikes and 4wdrives out of the weather!

[Tombie]

Been wanting to do this for ages, but didn't think it possible. (Ever since reading "The Art of the Steal" and realising I was a good candidate. Moved a few too many times and was not / am not vigilant enough when it comes to redirecting mail.

Any hints on how to apply for one Tombie?

We got the contact number from our bank...

It was over 3 years ago, I dont think we have the number...

Try your bank and see how you go.

[Tote]

Some information here (http://www.caslon.com.au/reportingprofile3.htm)
and it seems Veda Advantage are the main credit reference mob in NSW at least My Credit File - Veda Advantage (http://www.mycreditfile.com.au/home/home_default.aspx)

Regards,
Tote

[slug_burner]

Paranoia,

Yes we need to be careful about who we send money to on the net or to people in Nigeria.

The majority of plates are covered up to hide from the insurance company when people think they are doing something the insurance company would not like.

When someone breaks into your house while your sleeping and takes any valueable they can get their hands on including your house and car keys you want to get onto the locksmith fast or you will have something to worry about.

I have a bit of cardboard and tape for sale for anyone wanting to protect the identity of their number plates:p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Bingo!!!

The day they begin a DNA database I'll happily walk in and be catalogued..

If it saves my butt, covers me, identifies me etc... I have no issue.
Just a couple of issues you may want to consider, before you go and have your DNA added to the databank.

In the failed O.J. Simpson criminal trial, one of the reasons for the "not guilty" verdict was the fact that the blood on the back gate of O.J's mansion contained EDTA. The only way EDTA can contaminate blood is if it was once in a specimen bottle. Someone, planted the evidence, whether it was the Police or the defence team no-one knows.

The other issue is that identification by DNA is governed by statistical probability, i.e it is statistically probable that the DNA comes from this person and not one of so many million others. If the perpetrator of the crime is not in the database and you are the closest match of all those on the database. It will be you that is in the manure watercourse without a means of propulsion.

[Offender90]

When someone breaks into your house while your sleeping and takes any valueable they can get their hands on including your house and car keys you want to get onto the locksmith fast or you will have something to worry about.

Too true slug_burner! A neighbours apartment got burgled in a secure building I used to live in. Two days later, his car was gone!! :eek: Was a really nice Golf GTi as well!

Turns out the robber took the spare on his first visit, and had the stones to come back the second time despite being ID'd the first time (another neighbour held the door open for him while he wheeled out a bike with a couple of bags either side) :bangin:

This was in a "secure building", where security guards patrol the ground 24 hours a day, dog patrols after 5pm, there's a proximity card entry to EVERYTHING (foyer, garage, every floor). He must have followed a car into the garage, located the golf, turned it on and waited for someone to open the door from the other side.

Quite brazen, but if it can happen there, it sure as hell can happen in my front yard.

[muddymech]

[quote=ariddell;812287]Done very frequently in the UK since plate cloning is a huge problem.

Over there you can walk into any car accessory shop/order over the net and have any plate you like made without any questions asked.

it changed as we left the uk, you now need your car rego papers (v50) and the good old sticky plates are not available, makes for a real headache to get plates for your trailor, the plates also need to show the post code of the co thatmade them, all so much harder but supposed to stop the bad guys etc etc

[JDNSW]

Too true slug_burner! A neighbours apartment got burgled in a secure building I used to live in. Two days later, his car was gone!! :eek: Was a really nice Golf GTi as well!

Turns out the robber took the spare on his first visit, and had the stones to come back the second time despite being ID'd the first time (another neighbour held the door open for him while he wheeled out a bike with a couple of bags either side) :bangin:

This was in a "secure building", where security guards patrol the ground 24 hours a day, dog patrols after 5pm, there's a proximity card entry to EVERYTHING (foyer, garage, every floor). He must have followed a car into the garage, located the golf, turned it on and waited for someone to open the door from the other side.

Quite brazen, but if it can happen there, it sure as hell can happen in my front yard.

Some years ago the company I worked for had its London office in a secure bank building. One evening, a group went through the building and removed every PC and other valuable portable electronic gadget in the building. A week later they (presumably the same ones) went back and took all the new replacements. As far as I can remember, they were never caught. (I would have been looking very closely at the security staff!)

John

[Sprint]

brings to mind the photo of a young guy who had posted a photo up on one forum showing him, in his car, mid burnout on a private road

fast forward a couple of months, and the same photo, including numberplate, is published in a newspaper (think statewide distribution) accompanying an article about certain car clubs promoting hooning........ nothing was said about the location of the burnout......

[barney]

some of the stories about the covering of number plates scratch the surface but the real story dates back a few years and involves our old mate Harold Scruby.
a guy called Peter Hardi wrote in to overlander magazine
he worked in the film industry and had a garage full of toys used for filming like little hovercraft and some bikes and a huge 4wd he used for ads and film stunts. it was heavily modified.
he lived up near mosman and frequently drove about in his 4wd. scruby lives and works in mosman and constantly saw this car around, never got the rego number but saw the signwriting on it and looked up his website, which showed the vehicle's rego.
the mongrel then reported it to the local cops saying it was unroadworhty etc, and as he was the head of the pedestrian council, the cops were reluctantly obliged to take notice of his ramblings and act on them.
the guy was hassled no end by the RTA requesting inspection of his car. hassled at work and at home until they issued an ultimatum that unless the car was presented for inspection, they would have it seized.
it was engineered correctly and had certificates, so they eventually truped up a defect that he didn't know about and couldn't refute so they could justify their jobs.
you can read the thread on overlander here;-
http://forums.overlander.com.au/viewtopic.php't=34531&highlight=scruby (http://http://forums.overlander.com.au/viewtopic.php't=34531&highlight=scruby)

[rmp]

As long as you have a legal vehicle and are doing nothing wrong you've got nothing to worry about.

[JDNSW]

For those interested in privacy concerns, the September issue of Scientific American is a special issue devoted to technology and privacy.

John

[Offender90]

As long as you have a legal vehicle and are doing nothing wrong you've got nothing to worry about.

As I understand it, that's not entirely true! - I'm told that most brand new cars can be defected if inspected thoroughly enough. A workmate's dad taught vehicle inspection courses at the academy and would defect a brand new car as a demonstration.

Its usually something obscure, but if they want to defect your car and they know their stuff, they usually can (or so I'm told). I'm always very nice to the boys in blue... even when getting a ticket! :)

[rmp]

As I understand it, that's not entirely true! - I'm told that most brand new cars can be defected if inspected thoroughly enough. A workmate's dad taught vehicle inspection courses at the academy and would defect a brand new car as a demonstration.

Its usually something obscure, but if they want to defect your car and they know their stuff, they usually can (or so I'm told). I'm always very nice to the boys in blue... even when getting a ticket! :)

I don't doubt that. But what do people do to get themselves into a situation where the cops go that hard over their car?

Now someone will post something saying 'well there I was minding my own buisness doing nothing wrong...' etc.

But one or two stories on the Net doesn't mean it's a widespread and systemic problem that we should all be tying ourselves into knots about.

With a lot of this information security there are risks, but we take risks every day from crossing the street to driving offroad and we consider that a reasonable tradeoff. We seem to treat information security differently.

Some people won't even join online forums because of the 'risk'. Everyone here reckons if there's a risk, it's very small compared to the pleasure you'd get.

Personally I don't mind my numberplate being shown (it's actually a bit late for me now even if I changed my mind) and I think it spoils the photograph to blur it.

There are real information security risks out there; those who own their own domain name, and put their home address in the admin records, those who fall for Nigerian scams, and all manner of hoaxes, those who are careless on eBay or with their credit cards, use the same password on a forum as for Internet banking and more.

Numberplates on the web isn't in that list.

[JDNSW]

As I understand it, that's not entirely true! - I'm told that most brand new cars can be defected if inspected thoroughly enough. A workmate's dad taught vehicle inspection courses at the academy and would defect a brand new car as a demonstration.

Its usually something obscure, but if they want to defect your car and they know their stuff, they usually can (or so I'm told). I'm always very nice to the boys in blue... even when getting a ticket! :)

Thatwould be correct, and not just cars. As a general rule you break the law many times each day, usually but not always trivial points of law, but if detected you could be charged. Mostly you break them because they are either silly or impossible to comply with or you didn't even know about them ("ignorance is no excuse"). For example, to run my farm I have to comply with laws and regulations that have a total thickness of about 60cm. There is no way that any normal person could learn and remember all of that, let alone adhere to it.

But motoring is one of the easiest ones to prosecute because of the many regulations that have the force of law and that are written so that it is easy to determine whether they have been breached or not, for example, speed limits, allowable tyre widths and tread depths, that sort of thing; all simple, easy measurements that have been tested to stand up in court. And the police and courts have had a hundred years of experience to change both the regulations and their proceedings to make it easy.

John