PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 or 4.4?



Shaneo
14th September 2008, 03:01 AM
Hi all,

I've reciently brought a rrc and was told it had a leyland p76 engine in it.

Is there any visual diffrences between a 3.5 and 4.4? if so what are they?

Also I've had a look for the engine numbers and cann't see them any pionters on where to look?

Cheers Shane:bangin:

Lotz-A-Landies
14th September 2008, 03:54 AM
Shane

The P76 block is the same angle block but it has a longer bore hence is wider at the valley. Also the heads don't have the accessory mounting bolt holes in the RH head.

The valleys from the Rover and the Leyland are not interchangeable and to mount the standard air con brackets there is usually an adaptor plate on the RHS front of the engine.

The engne number will have commencing number prefix of 440 or 441 etc.

I had a 5.1 litre version of the P76 engine made by Rockhampton Engine Reconditioners and it was more trouble than it was worth. Eventually went back to a Rover engine albeit a 4.6 Rover block.

Hope this helps.

Rangier Rover
14th September 2008, 08:41 AM
Hi all,

I've reciently brought a rrc and was told it had a leyland p76 engine in it.

Is there any visual diffrences between a 3.5 and 4.4? if so what are they?

Also I've had a look for the engine numbers and cann't see them any pionters on where to look?

Cheers Shane:bangin:
Most put the Rangie heads,Timing cover,Dizzy, Sump and Starter with spacer ring on the 4.4. So the manifold(May still have 2 barrel carby,a Rangie stromie set up grafted on or spacers and complete Rangie or Vitesse manifold), Engine mounts and some ancillaries mounts will be the most obvious that you can see. The engine no is at the back of the block:mad:
If you have Range heads and T cover it won't give you any grief so long as you don't rev it hard as thay tend to split the block along the cam:eek:
Still plenty of them around.
Tony

Lotz-A-Landies
14th September 2008, 09:22 AM
Most put the Rangie heads,Timing cover,Dizzy, Sump and Starter with spacer ring on the 4.4. So the manifold(May still have 2 barrel carby,a Rangie stromie set up grafted on or spacers and complete Rangie or Vitesse manifold), Engine mounts and some ancillaries mounts will be the most obvious that you can see. The engine no is at the back of the block:mad:
....
Tony
Tony

Yes that's correct place for the engine number - I forgot about the difficulty of having to lie on top on the engine and with a mirror attempt to see the number in the little gap between the firewall and the back of the valley cover. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Seem to remember we had the number re-stamped up the front to make it easier to read. Mine had the Rover rocker covers and timing case but still the P76 manifold. The extractors were specially made for the P76 and RR chassis.

r.over
14th September 2008, 09:44 AM
Almost anything is better than a 3.5. A 4.4 has some issues, the main one these days is that it is over 30 years old and it is getting more difficult to get parts for.
Between a 4.4 and 3.5, I would pick a 4.4. Between a 4.6 and a 4.4, definitely the 4.6. Iy could go either way when comparing a 3.9 or 4.0 EFI and a 4.4

Rangier Rover
14th September 2008, 09:48 AM
Tony

Yes that's correct place for the engine number - I forgot about the difficulty of having to lie on top on the engine and with a mirror attempt to see the number in the little gap between the firewall and the back of the valley cover. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Seem to remember we had the number re-stamped up the front to make it easier to read. Mine had the Rover rocker covers and timing case but still the P76 manifold. The extractors were specially made for the P76 and RR chassis.
They made extractors for it:eek: They should have used 3.9 efi manifolds they work well
. Ive always been able to bend engine pipes down on them so it will line up again.
Tony

Shaneo
14th September 2008, 06:19 PM
Thanks heaps everyone you all have been a great help with out looking at it again i dare say it is a 4.4 just from the air con bracket.

no wonder i couldn't find the engine number.;)

now the next question anyone have or know where to get a water pump from?

I've tryed the guys at silverdale and a few others and can only get a rebuild kit at a price that i think is abit steep.

Cheers Shane

Lotz-A-Landies
14th September 2008, 07:27 PM
They made extractors for it:eek: They should have used 3.9 efi manifolds they work well.
They didn't make 3.9 EFI manifolds in 1985, the only Rover EFI was the SD1.

Rangier Rover
14th September 2008, 07:46 PM
They didn't make 3.9 EFI manifolds in 1985, the only Rover EFI was the SD1.
Opps sorry. Wow you had rangies for a wile:)
Tony

Rangier Rover
14th September 2008, 07:58 PM
Thanks heaps everyone you all have been a great help with out looking at it again i dare say it is a 4.4 just from the air con bracket.

no wonder i couldn't find the engine number.;)

now the next question anyone have or know where to get a water pump from?

I've tryed the guys at silverdale and a few others and can only get a rebuild kit at a price that i think is abit steep.

Cheers Shane
I'm not sure what TC you have. If its a P76 and you can't be bothered puting a Rangie one on ( only have to drill dowels) Rip the water pump off, put a blank plate over it and use a Davies Craig - EWP (http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47). If the timing case is still ok.
I would recomend a Rangie Timing case if your up to the task. Water pumps and oil pumps are easy to get.

Shaneo
15th September 2008, 07:29 AM
Thanks wasn't aware you could fit a 3.5ltr water pumo to it thanks I'll look into it.

It's an early model 2 door (79)

as for the engine number i've had a look still no luck there seem's to be a home made gal. sheet metal valley gasket covering the back of the block don't know what for. Looks like its some kind of shim set up to fit the four barrell manifold because at the front between the heads and the manifold there is 3 thicknesses of sheet

POD
15th September 2008, 08:20 AM
there seem's to be a home made gal. sheet metal valley gasket


That's the normal valley cover. On most V8s (Chev, Ford, Holden), the manifold itself is the valley cover; the rover V8s are different and have this sheet metal valley cover beneath the manifold.
I've got a 4.4 in my 88RR with the 3.5 EFI heads, manifold etc. There's a little business called Rovacentre in Skye, Vic. Bloke named Dave, does a lot of stuff with 4.4 engines, I bought my block, crank etc and adaptor kit from him. I'd give him a try for any 4.4 bits you need.
Pete

POD
15th September 2008, 08:25 AM
Where the valley cover is, is not where the engine number is; you need to look at the next bit back and lower, where the bell housing bolts on. Like a continuation of the bell housing into the casting of the block.

Capstan
15th September 2008, 09:21 AM
To find the 4.4 engine no. open the bonnet and lean it on the windscreen, climb up on the wheel/engine and lean over and look down in the gap between the passenger side rocker cover and the firewall. You will find a flat bit on the block covered in grot and grime facing upwards about 75mm x 20mm, clean in off and you will find a no. on it

Shaneo
15th September 2008, 10:32 AM
Thanks once again I've found it after I pried the air filter cover off with a CROWBAR:mad: (some people love sikaflex a little to much) It is a 4.4

I might give rovacentre a call thanks

Lotz-A-Landies
15th September 2008, 10:41 AM
Opps sorry. Wow you had rangies for a wile:)
Tony
Tony

More than that I have had the same Rangie for a while.

I couldn't see the benefit of spending another $50,000 + to buy a later RRc or Disco 1/2 what are essentially the same car albeit now with traction control and airbags.

Diana

Shaneo
15th September 2008, 11:22 AM
no luck with rovacentre:(

Shaneo
15th September 2008, 11:27 AM
Am I right in thinking that i can fit a 3.5 waterpump to the 4.4 if i drill the dowls out?

just want to be shore before i buy one and cann't get it to fit

Rangier Rover
15th September 2008, 11:55 AM
Am I right in thinking that i can fit a 3.5 waterpump to the 4.4 if i drill the dowls out?

just want to be shore before i buy one and cann't get it to fit
No... You need the complete timing cover with a good oil pump,bypass valve (Spring)and a new water pump. Easy do do. When you get one I'll show you how to fit up if you need a guide. I should have some pics here of dowel mods.
Tony

loanrangie
15th September 2008, 12:56 PM
Am I right in thinking that i can fit a 3.5 waterpump to the 4.4 if i drill the dowls out?

just want to be shore before i buy one and cann't get it to fit

If your engine has more than 1 fan belt then it most likely already has a rover timing cover with w/pump etc, easiest way to tell is if there is 2 bolts and a plate just below the distributor clamp where the mechanical fuel pump was mounted then its the 4.4 cover if its a blank casting then its a rover cover.

Shaneo
15th September 2008, 04:14 PM
Hi all,

I'd just like to thank you all for all your help its been great.

ok I've had a look and yeah it loks to me as if there was a mec. fuel pump there and it has been blanked off just as you said oval shaped blanking plate just under the dizzy.

now what? have i been chasing the wrong pump?

should i go for a standard 3.5 pump?

I also rembember the pump had 1 male and 1 female locating dowls in it if this helps.

Cheers Shane

loanrangie
15th September 2008, 06:03 PM
Hi all,

I'd just like to thank you all for all your help its been great.

ok I've had a look and yeah it loks to me as if there was a mec. fuel pump there and it has been blanked off just as you said oval shaped blanking plate just under the dizzy.

now what? have i been chasing the wrong pump?

should i go for a standard 3.5 pump?

I also rembember the pump had 1 male and 1 female locating dowls in it if this helps.

Cheers Shane

Means that you have the original 4.4 timing cover, if i was you i would get hold of a rover cover with waterpump and flog the 4.4 1 on ebay - youll get your money back on the swap and the rover w/pump is much better.

Shaneo
15th September 2008, 06:07 PM
didn't think I could be so lucky

Rangier Rover
15th September 2008, 10:47 PM
Shaneo, what is your location. Some one here will have what you need. If you are in Aus I can help you out a bit. I done heaps of these in the 80 and a few now. A lot give up on 3.5s and are cheap as a donor as they tend to sell complete:D Oil pump kits (over size)and water pumps are very getable for 3.5 and Z9 ford oil filter fits.
Tony

Shaneo
16th September 2008, 04:14 PM
Hi I live in Picton N.S.W

just hold on a bit before you case up a conversion I pulled the impella out of the pump today to see if I could get a bearing and seal from CBC or another bearing place and found the impella sharft is worn as well so i thought bugger it and just ordered the repair kit.

I must say though I got a price from land spares at silverdale and he was over $50 cheaper than everyone else :D but still a $200 exercise:mad:

thanks for all your help i'll let you know how go.

Cheers Shane

Rangier Rover
16th September 2008, 04:32 PM
Hi I live in Picton N.S.W

just hold on a bit before you case up a conversion I pulled the impella out of the pump today to see if I could get a bearing and seal from CBC or another bearing place and found the impella sharft is worn as well so i thought bugger it and just ordered the repair kit.

I must say though I got a price from land spares at silverdale and he was over $50 cheaper than everyone else :D but still a $200 exercise:mad:

thanks for all your help i'll let you know how go.

Cheers Shane
Make shure the Timing cover doesn't have bad corosion damage or you will get a sump full of water:(. If it has epoxy liquid metal will fix it.

loanrangie
16th September 2008, 05:52 PM
Make shure the Timing cover doesn't have bad corosion damage or you will get a sump full of water:(. If it has epoxy liquid metal will fix it.

Mine was corroded thru but i had it welded which warped the pump mating surface so i had to set it up in the mill and machine it flat again, that was 8 years ago and no probs since ;).

Shaneo
17th September 2008, 02:05 PM
thanks for the tips i'll cheek it out.

the water pump housing it's self is in surprising good condition but will cheek the timing cover aswell thanks

Shaneo
22nd September 2008, 12:07 PM
Hi all,

got the pump back together and running fine after a air lock in the cooling system but all good now thanks a tonne for all you help.:)

anyone know what deg. the timing should be running at on these 4.4's ? or roughly where to start

It is duel fuel

Cheers Shane

loanrangie
22nd September 2008, 12:30 PM
Hi all,

got the pump back together and running fine after a air lock in the cooling system but all good now thanks a tonne for all you help.:)

anyone know what deg. the timing should be running at on these 4.4's ? or roughly where to start

It is duel fuel

Cheers Shane

10 - 12 BTDC should see it happy, they have a tendency for the timing marks to not correspond correctly ie even when the balancer marks are lined up its still not TDC - pull out no 1 spark plug, line it up and check.

rovercare
22nd September 2008, 12:49 PM
Advance it till it pings, then retard it a little

Shaneo
22nd September 2008, 12:52 PM
ok thanks will do

I was told u need to run more advance for lpg is that true?

rovercare
22nd September 2008, 01:06 PM
ok thanks will do

I was told u need to run more advance for lpg is that true?

Ok, simply LPG likes higher static timing and less overall advance, advance it till it pings on fuel, preferably premium, then retard it a little, this will be as much ignition advanve you can easily run, without playing springs and wieghts

If the motor struggles to crank, once you've done this, the timing is still to advance and must be retarded

Shaneo
22nd September 2008, 02:58 PM
got ya thanks