Will it ever start agian?

[blue steal]

Afternoon all,

I've come to a dead end this time. I have a 93 RR Classic (SSE) that has been converted to dual fuel. Now i am only going to tell you about our adventures that may have a bearing on our current situation. The car has always drawn a lot of current from the baterry, had no real issues with this as i have purchased a nice new beefy alternator to keep the lights on a night etc, and it always started pretty well.

About a year ago the petrol fuel pump went so i have been just driving on LPG, about six months ago i started getting a few over heating problems, and went into the red zone on the gauge once or twice (fun times!!!:D). I also recently bought an 93 vogue (its soooo much simpler than the SSE) anyway i was having power issue with the new 93 vogue so i swapped the distirbutors over, no power difference, but the SSE made a different noise when turning over at start up (i am not %100 sure the noise change happened exactly at change over but when turning it started to sound different about a month before it stopped) it still started okay.. but kinda lunged into starting...

anyways the day after a little overheating incident (note it started and drove fine home hours after the overheating incedent) it wouldn't start... i thought it might be out of gas but it wasn't. So not knowing much about gas and having checked all the obvious things i decided to get fuel working agian. A very long story later i now have fuel going into the rails (i undid it at the entrance and fuel came gushing out. ... but still the car wont start... it turns over but wont fire... its not a very exited turn over but enough you would think to get it started.. i have checked the spark plugs and i am getting spark... about 3 of the plugs where pretty dirty, but all have been cleaned or replaced and are back in... coil is about 2 years old...

have been using the vogue to try jump start the SSE after i play or have other ideas...

any ideas guys/gals?? have i cracked my block (yes there was a bit of coolant when i changed the oil)

it doesn't sound like its even firing so i don't think its a compression issue (i could be wrong) have i flooded it or am i still not getting fuel?

have been reading other threads here and have tried adding another earth to the - battery terminal ... even run a wire from coil to battery to check...

any other ideas... i have been strugling with this one for a month or two...

cheers and any advice appreciated...

[Blknight.aus]

I would guess you have a culmination of problems...

water in oil at a minimum is the head gasket.

as youve been running lpg (and I'm guessing thats not injected LPG) then whats possibly happened is that youve baked the residual fuel in the rail and injectors with the engine heat into lacquer and thats clogged your injectors.

the slow cranking could be anything from a bad earth, crook starter right through to a distorted piston from the over heat that grabbing the bore.


its a little cruel but try removing the inlet ducting before the MAF andspraying some startyabastard, areostart or in a pinch carby cleaner into the opening while some one tries to start it. IF you need to jump it off another vehicle to get it to go then do that before starting out.

[Disco_owner]

Hi Blue Steel;

I have had a similar problem with the my 93 Vogue where it kept stalling on gas or Petrol and would not start at all , specially when coming towards a set of traffic lights slowing down , I'd have to put it in park and keep cranking but nothing :mad: no overheating issues , I've an after market Iginition module fitted to the Rangie which apparently was also causing some issues as well on ignition side of things , I pulled it apart & on close inspection it had a bad electrical earth connection , so I re-soldered the earth wire on the PCB board and put it back together , also the Coil on a closer inspection had one of it's Spade connectors dirty and quite loose and with 12v probe i checked the Coil and it wasn't getting 12V to it with ignition ON, so checked Fuse for Coil and had blown fuse , so after repladcement of 10A Fuse , she fires up. evreytime now.

and hasn't stalled either.

[pomonastik]

just an odd idea:
can you smell unburnt fuel at the exhaust after you've been turning it over ? are the plugs 'wet' ? if neither it might just pay to check that the hack into the injector wiring that the gas system uses to shut off the petrol fuelling while in gas operation. in my vehicle's case it is made to the two big fat brown wires that emerge from the resistor pack situated below the bracket which holds the air metering casing. usually they are soldered connections but in my case i fitted genuine rists connectors from a wreck to facilitate reconnecting the cut wires in the event of a failure of the gas electronics. i mention it because i rather foolishly left them unconnected at one point and couldn't work out why it wouldn't go !
if for any reason your equivalent connections had become loosened or your gas electronics box failed to close the injector circuits you would get the same result.

[mike 90 RR]

All points so far pointed out by the others are valid

If you have the little black module screwed to the side of the Dizzy ... That is the Amplifier for the Dizzy pulse that gives you spark from the coil .... They DO NOT like being cooked by a over heated motor and start a gradule decline in operating ... Usually by misterious "Car just stops" waited 5 miniutes and now works

Also test what voltage you are getting at the coil ... If it's less than 1 volt than what your battery is (measure your battery then the coil to compare) ... Then go to a Auto Spark

Also where are you located ... Helps for reply's and service areas


Mike

[pomonastik]

any joy yet blue steal ?

[mike 90 RR]

The other thought that comes to mind is

If the head gasket is shot and coolant is getting into the pots (piston bore) then they will be wiping out any spark from the spark plugs .... Pull out the plugs and look for "cleaned" .. IE like new / no carbon .... Hence the "Lunge of starting" you got, can = water being pushed / compressed in bore


If the plugs have been water cleaned is that they are most probably Knackered

Mike

[blue steal]

thanks for the ideas. I will give them all a shot this week and get back with the outcomes and hopefully the solution (oh please let me find a solution;) ) or more questions....

I had previuosly tried some start ya bastard spraying it directly into the manifold, whilst cranking... got a small back fire... might get my little bro to hold the lead from the coil to the engine block instead of the distributor to see how much of a spark its getting.... :twisted: he he heee

Now that it stinking hot i wished i had braved the cooler days to get this sucker back on the road...

[blue steal]

Just an update,

it would apear that it would have a better chance of starting if it was pushing less water through.

So my options at this stage are

A: drop all the coolant, and replace with petrol...

B: take of the head, inspect, clean and hopefully just replace the gasket

C: sell as complete wreck or as parts..


option A is very appealing, especially given that its insured for a lot:D

is much work invovled in option B ?

anyone interested in C ?

[Capstan]

What about taking it to a professional? Or even for a second opinion (Ok, you're ugly as well!)

[Rangier Rover]

Just an update,

it would apear that it would have a better chance of starting if it was pushing less water through.

So my options at this stage are

A: drop all the coolant, and replace with petrol...

B: take of the head, inspect, clean and hopefully just replace the gasket

C: sell as complete wreck or as parts..


option A is very appealing, especially given that its insured for a lot:D

is much work invovled in option B ?

anyone interested in C ? Ow much?

[blue steal]

Ow much?

Im thinking i could get $3400 out of it in parts pretty quick so probably about that.

[blue steal]

So i have made it this far.

http://plushrides.com.au/random/engine.jpg


not sure if that brown colour was factory :wasntme:... what do i do from here???

is it worth continuing... taking the heads out... machined... put back in???

will this cost a lot? can i do it myself?? what other options??

[mike 90 RR]

So i have made it this far.


not sure if that brown colour was factory :wasntme:... what do i do from here???

is it worth continuing... taking the heads out... machined... put back in???

will this cost a lot? can i do it myself?? what other options??

It's been wet for a long time ..... SO ... Have you figured where the coolants coming from .... I take it that the pots (pistons) are still full of coolant also??

[Pierre]

Off with its heads, Baldrick! Check carefully while they are coming off where any coolant may spill from.

It may be just a case of machine heads, new gaskets and back together.

BUT BEFORE YOU DO THAT...

Have you done a compression test? A leak down test? Any sort of test to check where things are at???

Pete

[blue steal]

Off with its heads, Baldrick! Check carefully while they are coming off where any coolant may spill from.

It may be just a case of machine heads, new gaskets and back together.

BUT BEFORE YOU DO THAT...

Have you done a compression test? A leak down test? Any sort of test to check where things are at???

Pete

no.... i hadn't. I was thinking that as i pulled the last bit off... realising it could still be any number of areas where the coolant is getting in....

i never taken the top of an engine before... not one like this anyhow... I had an old 265 hemi apart a few times.... i got this far, got scared, so i ran inside with pics seeking advice...:D

i presume coolant isn't ment to be in this part of the engine.. i noticed an asymetric buldge in the cover... perhaps when the temp gauge reaches red, it isn't kidding.

So if i take it further appart (guesing i will have to do both sides) i should be able to access all seals that the coolant can get through? can i tell if it needs to be machined??

i'm guesing the pistons have coolant in there....

what gasket areas can possibly leak coolant into the engine? this one and the two heads???

[PhilipA]

not sure if that brown colour was factory :wasntme:... what do i do from here???
That brown colour and cam silver is beyootiful and clean. It looks to me that the ports have been ground and that the engine is very low miles or rebuilt.
Some inlet ports are clean also which is a bit of a mystery.
WORST CASE SCENARIO Maybe someone has rebuilt this engine with new gaskets but it was the liners.
There looks to be a leak into the valley from the RH head water passage at the front.
Looks like rust on the pushrods .
Overall that part of the engine looks great.
qualification that it may look different close up in person.
Regards Philip A

[mike 90 RR]

That brown colour and cam silver is beyootiful and clean. It looks to me that the ports have been ground and that the engine is very low miles or rebuilt.
Some inlet ports are clean also which is a bit of a mystery.
WORST CASE SCENARIO Maybe someone has rebuilt this engine with new gaskets but it was the liners.
There looks to be a leak into the valley from the RH head water passage at the front.
Looks like rust on the pushrods .
Overall that part of the engine looks great.
qualification that it may look different close up in person.
Regards Philip A

You do have a eye for detail Phillip :)




i never taken the top of an engine before... not one like this anyhow... I had an old 265 hemi apart a few times.... i got this far, got scared, so i ran inside with pics seeking advice...:D

i presume coolant isn't ment to be in this part of the engine.. i noticed an asymetric buldge in the cover... perhaps when the temp gauge reaches red, it isn't kidding.

So if i take it further appart (guesing i will have to do both sides) i should be able to access all seals that the coolant can get through? can i tell if it needs to be machined??

i'm guesing the pistons have coolant in there....

what gasket areas can possibly leak coolant into the engine? this one and the two heads???

Yes .... Temperature gauge isn't kidding ......

If you have done a Hemi .... Same principles .... Just less bolts per head
Just remember to mark & match all parts ... so it all goes back together as taken apart

I WOULD do a compression check on the "Good" pistons .... as the heads have been worked on ... so it would be good to know "What compression is it?" ... If the inlets have been milled ... then the question is "Did they shave the head?" (for compression increase?)

Rip the heads off .... Then make a decision .... As you have nothing to loose
Remember to crack the bolts in a "reversed torqued sequence" ... Not just undo / remove them :(

Do both sides ...( If you are to do a job ... You only want to do it once ;) )
Both heads will have to be "faced" at a head shop (tested for straight)

It's the Steel bore liners in the block that you need to check
There are photos of what a slipped liner looks like on this forum


And make sure you have a manual at hand for this engine to refer to
And spray some CRC on the exposed metal parts to stop the rust :(

Mike

:)

[blue steal]

You do have a eye for detail Phillip :)




Yes .... Temperature gauge isn't kidding ......

If you have done a Hemi .... Same principles .... Just less bolts per head
Just remember to mark & match all parts ... so it all goes back together as taken apart

I WOULD do a compression check on the "Good" pistons .... as the heads have been worked on ... so it would be good to know "What compression is it?" ... If the inlets have been milled ... then the question is "Did they shave the head?" (for compression increase?)

Rip the heads off .... Then make a decision .... As you have nothing to loose
Remember to crack the bolts in a "reversed torqued sequence" ... Not just undo / remove them :(

Do both sides ...( If you are to do a job ... You only want to do it once ;) )
Both heads will have to be "faced" at a head shop (tested for straight)

It's the Steel bore liners in the block that you need to check
There are photos of what a slipped liner looks like on this forum


And make sure you have a manual at hand for this engine to refer to
And spray some CRC on the exposed metal parts to stop the rust :(

Mike

:)

Cool off to work we go... it is possible this engine had been previously moded a bit... it was the fastest rangie i had ever driven (even when using Gas).... apart it goes!!

What i need to do for a compresion check? Do i do this before i take it all apart? can I do it myself at home? do i need to do it if its all coming apart and back together anyway?

[mike 90 RR]

Cool off to work we go... it is possible this engine had been previously moded a bit... it was the fastest rangie i had ever driven (even when using Gas).... apart it goes!!

What i need to do for a compresion check? Do i do this before i take it all apart? can I do it myself at home? do i need to do it if its all coming apart and back together anyway?

Blue Steel .... VERY important .... Whats your location ... AS this makes it easier to know which direction to send you to for parts ect

GO and buy a cheap compression gauge .... use it BEFORE DISMANTALING
THE reason to check prior is because you will need a indication of what the previous owner did when modding the heads .. IE ... Did they go overboard??

Takes 2 for test with the cheap gauge
.... 1 to turn the key of starter motor
.... The other to hold the gauge
YES ... you can do it all at home in a shed




The heads are made of Aluminium ... UNBOLT in the "stepped reverse sequence"
IF you just unbolt it .. you run the risk of major warping of head

DON'T treat it as a cast iron head

You will need to take it to a head shop to "Face it"




BUY A manual ..... You need to "help yourself" if you want "some help from us"

Buy this ...

Dave's Interesting Things - Rave I (http://www.davesitshop.com/davesitshop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=1)

Buy this

Range Rover 1970 - 1992 Petrol V8 Shop Manual (http://www.pitstop.net.au/view/marques-rover-range/page/query/plu/8851/)

Look through this

Range Rover | The Pitstop Bookshop (http://www.pitstop.net.au/view/marques-rover-range/)

Mike

:)

[Pierre]

I'd reckon the coolant trail on the rh side front will be from the coolant port into the inlet manifold.

I'd agree that it looks like a low k top end. There seems no sign of gasket sealant on the inlet port surrounds, and if there has been some work done on the heads (viz. a severe 'haircut'), a usual prevention measure by engine builders is to use a sealant on the valley cover gasket (eg Locktite 515) to ensure a seal around the back and front water gallery ports (and the inlet porting areas, too).

If it's been a massive CR change, the manifold won't cover the ports correctly without some facing work. No angles change, just distances. Doesn't look like it here, though.

I'd still use a high quality sealant on the valley cover and end seals (I use 3 Bond in grey or black) when I reassembled the top end.

FWIW

Cheers

Pete