bad whiny transmission noise - listen here

[F4Phantom]

I was driving along today and instantly heard this noise. I recorded some and the noise came out fairly well. It lasted about 10km and near my home it went away completely. I have no idea what it is, I estimate its something loose which would explain the on off business. Under the car seems fine.

Symptoms
1.I put it into low range and CDL, all worked fine but did not affect the noise.
2,The noise is only present with throttle and glides without noise.
3.It winds up in pitch through the gears (each gear does not reset pitch level) so the faster the wheels turn the higher pitch the noise.
4.It does not seem to hinder rolling friction or engine output power.
5.Gear box seems unaffected.
6.Sounds similar to transfer box noise when in low range but seems unaffected by transfer box operations.

So thats about it. Any ideas?

rangienoise.flv - Video - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a372/MelissadW/?action=view&current=rangienoise.flv)

[Slunnie]

Diff???

[Blknight.aus]

any number of bearings in the system....

start by checking the pinions on the diffs

[r.over]

What's my wife doing in your car?

[F4Phantom]

What's my wife doing in your car? very funny.

I am going to change all the oils of gear box, transfer case and front and rear diff.

Does the centre diff take the same oil as the front and rears & does the transfer case get its oil from the 5 speed?

[Blknight.aus]

the tcase should have the same oil in it as the main box... but it will take 80/90 same as the diffs...
thinking about it...


when did you last check the oil in the tcase?

[F4Phantom]

a while. I am going to do full changes tomorrow.

what oil do you recommend for (brand of oil, 10w30 ect all welcome info as I will be buying it all first thing)

front and rear diff

5 speed

centre diff

[ladas]

very funny.

I am going to change all the oils of gear box, transfer case and front and rear diff.

Does the centre diff take the same oil as the front and rears & does the transfer case get its oil from the 5 speed?


No it is filled seperately ..........may be the route of your problem.

[POD]

My transfer case has been singing that song with ever-increasing volume for about the past 5 years.

[pomonastik]

Redline MTL is my recommendation for the 5 speed. worth the cost.
for the transfer case and diffs i just use whatever branded 80/90 is cheapest at the time.

[mike 90 RR]

Grab 4 axle stands and put them under the diff housings (get wheels off ground)
Get someone to start and drive it in gear .. Apply slight brakes to put "weight" on the drive line
You will be able to poke your head under and find the noise

When you drop the oils ... check each container for metal at bottom

[r.over]

You don't use diff oil in gearboxes or transfer cases. Can be unkind to yellow metals. You use gear oil. If you want to know what oil to use, go to www.penrite.com.au.
If you use the thing off-road or for towing heavy loads, you are better off with 85/140 in the diffs.

[F4Phantom]

thanks so far, I am putting together a shopping list and plan on spending the day changing oils. Will let you know how that works for me.

[loanrangie]

thanks so far, I am putting together a shopping list and plan on spending the day changing oils. Will let you know how that works for me.

Being an R380 it uses MTF i think ? or at least different grade to a LT77 or LT95, someone else will confirm.

[F4Phantom]

I have never owned a car which (seems to) responds so well to an oil change.

I took a punt and put in nulon everything. So front diffs have nulon mineral oil, transfer case has nulons version of syntrax (put in 2.0L) and the 5 speed has nulons version of syntrans oil (took 2.3L). Both are fully synthetic, nulon buys castrol oil then mixes their own blend. It is a new range of oils from this company and they are obviously trying to take some of this market. They are around $7 cheaper per litre.

So I took the car around the block and already the gear shifts are smoother, and the clutch in clunk is all but gone. All seems slightly quieter. So anyway I hope this extends the life of all the working parts. It seems to be working at this early stage.


I forgot to mention. diffs, and 5 speed had plenty of oil, the transfer case was VERY LOWWWW. This was obviously the problem as I think the oil had leaked out. Its not hard to check and I will be doing just that from now on. I can only hope that I have not caused damage. BLKnight.aus was dead on.

[Blknight.aus]

unless you are going to be working it in constant AMBIENT temperatures of over 40 degrees and working it hard OR your going to consistently run the diffs at stupid temperatures..

DONT run 85/140....

80/90 is all you need and if you look at your vehicles operating temperature VS oil charts you'll find that 80/90 covers most things you'll find in australia.

the metal particals that can come loose stay in suspension much longer in 85/140 and as it doesnt flow as well it doesnt pull the heat away from the components as quickly...

[Slunnie]

85/140 is for Hypoid diffs, not spiral bevel diffs like in the Rover diffs. Actually, its probably a better grade oil also due to the oil sheering in hypoids. Interestingly, if you do run an ARB locker, they apparently also specify this oil, even in Rover diffs. None of this answers your question though.

[r.over]

unless you are going to be working it in constant AMBIENT temperatures of over 40 degrees and working it hard OR your going to consistently run the diffs at stupid temperatures..

DONT run 85/140....

80/90 is all you need and if you look at your vehicles operating temperature VS oil charts you'll find that 80/90 covers most things you'll find in australia.

the metal particals that can come loose stay in suspension much longer in 85/140 and as it doesnt flow as well it doesnt pull the heat away from the components as quickly...
Blew up 2 diffs using 80/90. Have been using 85/140 for nearly 10 years in rover diffs without issue.

Diffs get very hot under load and off-road.

I think that you should have said that you do not believe it is required rather than a flat out statement saying not to use it.

[F4Phantom]

to clarify I am using

R380 - 75W85 nulon smooth shift for man box and transaxle 100% synthetic (syntrans equivalent)

transfer case - 75W90 nulon performance man box and transaxle 100% synthetic (syntrax equivalent)

diffs - 80W90 mineral gearbox and diff oil

Whats annoying is that people can have very different experiences with the same cars and same fluids. For the diff the book did say 80W90 mineral oil. I cant see that being a big problem.

[Blknight.aus]

given that that caveat IS in my original statement....


IVe seen an 8HA wiped out because someone put OEP600 (the military equivelent to 85/140) in it and went for a prolonged fast run The cause of death was overheating of the diffs front pinion bearing. Given that F4phantom is driving what (from the layout of the radio, ciggy lighter and heater controls) appears to be a midrange D1 he's more likely to be doing lighter fast work than heavily laden low to medium speed towing then the 80/90 is the way to go. Ever since the series there has been the scope for using 85/140 in hot conditions in diffs even the tcase. But the scope that your likely to encounter that in in Australia is pretty low

saying you've killed 2 rover diffs that were running 80/90 in them is like saying that it was the fact that smokers who get cancer have also drunk water so we shouldn't drink water as its potentially a cancer causing agent. I'd bet that theres a lot more diffs out there running 80/90 that haven't failed than there is than diffs running 85/140 that haven't failed..

[r.over]

given that that caveat IS in my original statement....
IVe seen an 8HA wiped out because someone put OEP600 (the military equivelent to 85/140) in it and went for a prolonged fast run The cause of death was overheating of the diffs front pinion bearing. Given that F4phantom is driving what (from the layout of the radio, ciggy lighter and heater controls) appears to be a midrange D1 he's more likely to be doing lighter fast work than heavily laden low to medium speed towing then the 80/90 is the way to go. Ever since the series there has been the scope for using 85/140 in hot conditions in diffs even the tcase. But the scope that your likely to encounter that in in Australia is pretty low

saying you've killed 2 rover diffs that were running 80/90 in them is like saying that it was the fact that smokers who get cancer have also drunk water so we shouldn't drink water as its potentially a cancer causing agent. I'd bet that theres a lot more diffs out there running 80/90 that haven't failed than there is than diffs running 85/140 that haven't failed..
I really do not want to debate this with you. But first off this is a Range Rover section and not Discovery. Secondly I clearly stated at the beginning that you should use 85/140 if you are using it off road or putting it under load. That is, situations that will heat up a diff. Since the speed limits are at most 110 kph and most people would not do more than 120kph, I do not understand your comments about high speed driving. Finally the reason I started to use 85/140 was because it was recommended by one of the best Landrover mechanics in this country. At the time, I can no longer find it on their site, Penrite also recommended 85/140 for Range Rovers used off road and/or pulling loads.

I have not stated anywhere not to use 90 oil. If you use the vehicle mainly on road, 90 oil will be fine.

Blaming the death of a person on using 85/140 is going a bit over the top. If they were doing high speed and the oil was hot, the oil would have been a lot thinner that cool 90 oil. I therefore find you statement about the cause of the accident hard to believe. The viscosity of 85/140 at 100C is 29.9, the viscosity of 85/90 at 40C is 142 or 4.5 times thicker than 85/140 at the hotter temp. So maybe people should not drive around at all in cold weather as it may cause their diffs to seize up. With both oils at 100C, 85/140 is around twice as thick as 85/90.

But come the end of the day you are entitled to your beliefs and I am entitled to mine. I just do not appreciate comments that say that I am recommending something that people should not do. So we will leave it at that.

[F4Phantom]

I did know about viscosity but I did a bit of reading to update my knowledge since this discussion is getting more technical. I found some very interesting info.

"Thinner motor oils such as 5W-20 or even 0W-20 are becoming more popular these days and are even specified by some OEM's (FORD & HONDA) on new 2001 cars.

Although these oils are promoted as "energy conserving" they generally trade a gain of less than 0.1 MPG in Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) for shorter useful engine life.

FORD which has previously designed cars to have 10 year or 150,000 miles life has reduced the mileage life expectation to "beyond 100,000 miles" on vehicles that are operated on SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil.

HONDA only claims "useful life" as 7-years or 70,000 miles in EPA certifications for their CIVIC which uses SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil, while the previous model that utilized SAE 5W-30 Motor Oil was certified for 10 year or 100,000 mile durability.

Since both HONDA and FORD Warranty their NEW cars for ONLY 3-years or 36,000-miles the reduction in engine life expectancy is not a factor.

By contrast Mercedes-Benz recommends use of ONLY Synthetic Motor Oil that is at least SAE 5W-40! This is a recent increase in recommended viscosity from SAE 5W-30. Apparently customer research indicated that engine longevity is more important to typical MB customer than fuel economy."

[Hoges]

Also did the all-round fluid change on my P38 when I got it about 2 yrs ago (105k km late 1999 BoschEFI). Lots of very fine grey stuff hanging off the magnetic diff plugs so I spent a good deal of time getting info from various manufacturers plus LR forums. I ultimately used the Castrol recommended diff oil plus the Nulon additive...

However for the transfer case I used Mobil Agri Fluid 424...80W as a result of searching the RR.net forum. It takes more than 2L ! Need to fill when cold until it begins to dribble from the filler hole.

It's especially formulated for wet clutch tractors etc and excellent for 4wd transfer cases ...but NOT auto transmissions. The quietness was amazing, it no longer sounded like the schoolbus I remember from the late 50's! A subsequent 500km trip confirmed the improvement.

just more info to muddy the waters!

cheers

[F4Phantom]

thanks for the info. I think I do need to put a bit more in the transfer case. But I have been amazed since the day I did this work how smooth the car is running. It has fixed a lot of problems I just thought were normal, having not driven a RRC before. (except a thrashed out early 3 speed auto with shagged engine)

The syncros are now operating as they should and there is less cabin noise all round. I too found magnetic plugs with lots of swarf attached.

[justinc]

given that that caveat IS in my original statement....


IVe seen an 8HA wiped out because someone put OEP600 (the military equivelent to 85/140) in it and went for a prolonged fast run The cause of death was overheating of the diffs front pinion bearing. Given that F4phantom is driving what (from the layout of the radio, ciggy lighter and heater controls) appears to be a midrange D1 he's more likely to be doing lighter fast work than heavily laden low to medium speed towing then the 80/90 is the way to go. Ever since the series there has been the scope for using 85/140 in hot conditions in diffs even the tcase. But the scope that your likely to encounter that in in Australia is pretty low

saying you've killed 2 rover diffs that were running 80/90 in them is like saying that it was the fact that smokers who get cancer have also drunk water so we shouldn't drink water as its potentially a cancer causing agent. I'd bet that theres a lot more diffs out there running 80/90 that haven't failed than there is than diffs running 85/140 that haven't failed..

I agree with the complete statement above. I have used nothing BUT 80w90 in all the diffs in all the vehicles I service and own. Some get a serious hiding. None have failed due to any kind of lubricant issue. I would run 85w140 in high ambient temps while heavily loaded,(+40degC)but only if it was convenient to change it out.

One thing Dave HAS seen a lot of, that is Series2/3's, perenties and 110's that cop a hiding from ADF etc drivers. So I guess he might just know a bit about what he is talking about here.
And I'm not sure where the reference to an accident or a death comes from? The '8HA death' Dave speaks of in the above is a Salisbury differential failure....
JC

[rovercare]

Given that F4phantom is driving what (from the layout of the radio, ciggy lighter and heater controls) appears to be a midrange D1 ..


I agree with the complete statement above.
....
JC

I REALLY hope you don;t agree with the "whole" statement JC:eek::p

[justinc]

I REALLY hope you don;t agree with the "whole" statement JC:eek::p

Yeah I know THAT part isn't right, but that part isn't an IMPORTANT part!:p:p:p:p:p
Nit-picker!:p:p:p
JC

[r.over]

For those with ARB lockers, you should note what oil ARB recommend for harder off-road and for heavy/high temp work in the owners manual. 80/90 is only recommended for light/normal use of the vehicle or operating in extremely cold climates, otherwise they recommend 85/140. This is exactly the same as the point as I have been trying to make. If you drive your vehicle around town and only go off-road occasionally on easy to medium trips, then 80/90 will be fine. If you run bigger tyres, go on the harder off-road trips, or regularly tow heavier loads, you may want to look at something that does not thin as much when hot.

A rover diff is smaller than most 4wd's. Holding less oil means that it will heat up quicker and therefore how the oil reacts to heat becomes important.

[justinc]

It is a little strange to me that people think that 80/90 is OK but 85/140 isn't. The cold viscosity is basically the same between the two oils. The only difference is that one does not thin as quickly as the other as it gets hot. Both oils get a lot thinner as they heat up.

If we were talking 80/90 compared to say a 130/140, I could maybe understand the issue. But we are talking about two oils that have virtually the same viscosity when at cooler running temps.

I like to be educated, so can someone explain it to me.

Our resident oils guru Rick130 will be able to explain the tech details off the top of his head, but as far as I can say, when running a differential under high load conditions and high temps the pressure exerted between mating surfaces is extremely high (Crownwheel to pinion etc) and this is where a 140 would help with GEAR FACE protection.
Under reasonable temps and pressures, IE 20+degrees and a Disco or RRC with less than a ton on the towhitch at highway speeds, the exerted pressures are very much less. Even moreso, with the size and therefore surface area specifically of a larger crownwheel and pinion like a 8HA salisbury differential gearset spreads the load over a LOT more tooth contact, there is little need to run heavier oil than 80w90 in these differentials IMHO.
The 8ha Sals bearing failure Dave was refering to was possibly due to running this 85w140 oil at high speeds where there is a possibility of an insufficient volume of lubricant (As it is splash lubrication) to the pinion bearings.

Hope I didn't make a mess of that explanation:(

JC

[mike 90 RR]

running this 85w140 oil at high speeds where there is a possibility of an insufficient volume of lubricant (As it is splash lubrication) to the pinion bearings.
JC

Are you trying to say .... Because the oil is thicker .... At HIGH speeds the oil is removed from the center of diff housing by the "crown".... "quicker than what it can run back to" ..... and leaves the center diff housing "dry of oil" (air pockets)

The crown is acting like a "water wheel" .... It picks up the oil and splashes it up and out throughout the axle housing

At low speeds .... (4x4 work) it works fine

Mike :)