Sick Defender

[naradataranto]

[B][/
Ok so on my way home from work my 94Tdi 110 started blowing rediculous amounts of white smoke when the car was stoped at lights. It seems to run fine and sounds as per usual but obviously all is not well.

Any suggestions? I am no serious mechanic and will take it to someone although Would love to know what to expect.

Any help appreciated.

[dullbird]

from under the bonnet or out of the exhaust

[naradataranto]

only from the exhaust. Looked under the car and bonet and all sesems to be in good order. Been reading old posts on the site sorry for the delay.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

White smoke usually means water :(

[dullbird]

White smoke usually means water :(

yes that is what i was going to say.....

maybe your head is on its way out...and the car is giving you subtle signs

[naradataranto]

It's got 278 000 on the clock ATM and the haead was done at 230K.
G Cooper have done all the servicing on it for the last while and It had a Dyno on the last service 2500k ago. Should I avoid driving it to my nearest landy shop/specialist. some 5km away or is it relativly safe to move it a short distance.

Could water in the oil do this.
Also it had a smell like evaporating coolant a few days ago but checked the cooling system and coulnt find any leaks.

[boyroy]

does the white smoke disappear or hang around and smell oily.
also check coolant level and for bubbles in system

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It's got 278 000 on the clock ATM and the haead was done at 230K.
G Cooper have done all the servicing on it for the last while and It had a Dyno on the last service 2500k ago. Should I avoid driving it to my nearest landy shop/specialist. some 5km away or is it relativly safe to move it a short distance.

Could water in the oil do this.
Also it had a smell like evaporating coolant a few days ago but checked the cooling system and coulnt find any leaks.

Hmmm... check oil and water. Then I would ring GC monday. See what he says but I would get in in there for a check. The main thing is to mitigate further damage by overheating. It might not be bad, but if it is you might be able to keep the job smaller by not getting it hot.

I wouldn't drive it any distance.

[naradataranto]

does the white smoke disappear or hang around and smell oily.
also check coolant level and for bubbles in system

The white smoke hangs around but does not smell overly oily. It continues to flow from the exhaust when the car is at idle, blows a crap load when the car moves then blows clear once a few revs blow the system clean. As soon as I stop again smoke is back.

There really is a crap load of it to.

I changed the coolant a week ago and have been checking it regularly to make sure it is toped up. There seems to be plenty of oil even too much oil. This is strange as cooper did a full change of oil, filters ect less than 1000ks ago. Can too much oil do this?

[Mick-Kelly]

Definitely sounds like water in the oil. It might be worth dropping the oil and sussing it out.

[naradataranto]

Ok Just checked the oil and coolant. oil seems OK Collant needed about 1.2L to get the overflow tank up to 2/3 full.
I started the old girl (first go and Idled as per usual) no smoke. Ran it to temp for 5 minutes and still no excessive smoke.
Hmmmm
This is why I am not a mechanic.
Even a fender out smarts me I'll drop it off for a check up.,:angel:

[naradataranto]

Definitely sounds like water in the oil. It might be worth dropping the oil and sussing it out.

Any idea of what dammage this can do??
Is there anything else I need took out for related to this?

[long stroke]

Definitely sounds like water in the oil. It might be worth dropping the oil and sussing it out.

You might be able to see some water on the dipstick;)

[BigJon]

If the white "smoke" is coolant, then it is probably actually steam. Smoke will hang around, steam will dissipate rapidly.

I know on petrol powered vehicles a failure of the brake booster can suck brake fluid into the engine where it burns with white smoke. Can the Tdi do the same with its vacuum pump setup? Probably worth checking the level in the reservoir just in case.

Excessive oil burning due to a failing turbo oil seal would also show as white smoke, maybe that is the problem.

[snowbound]

Definitely sounds like water in the oil. It might be worth dropping the oil and sussing it out.

Its the head gasket. I once had a good samaritan rush to my aid with a fire extinguisher due to the ammount of white smoke!:p Get it fixed before you do real damage.

[dullbird]

when you get the smoke is it first thing in the morning? or does it do it through out the day...

as most cars blow white first thing in the morning when first started

[Blknight.aus]

if its still making normal power you have the beginings of a failed head gasket.

run it with the expanstion tank cap off for a little while (watch the temp gauge like a hawk) and if it stops blowing smoke that confirms it.

while its running at idle while warm after being started up with the cap off (leave the cap off while it warms up) check the fluid for pulsations.

if your oil level is rising somethings getting in there and the only thing it can be on a tdi is the coolant if you get more than a couple of liters of coolant in there thats enough to ensure that your oil pumps pickup is immersed in coolant and not oil...


Engines generally dont like going for long with coolant for lubricant.

[LandyAndy]

Hi Narada
You can check for coolant in the oil by looking at the dipstick,alot of water in there it will be creamy looking.Now another check if it looks ok,get a cigarette lighter and burn the oil on the dipstick,if it burns cleanly shouldnt be water in it,if it spits and cracks whilost burning its a pretty good sign of water in the oil.
We had a turbo go on a loader on thursday,been playing up for 3 months.They sent 4 mechanics down to check all found nothing wrong.It had been operating for an hour and belched smoke and oil out of the chimney.When the mechanic came down with a new turbo the next day,the coolant had now gone and it was in the oil.It was prestart checked and I checked it when it broke down coolant and oil were good and not united yet.
Goodluck with yours.
Andrew

[naradataranto]

[QUOTE=LandyAndy;827814]Hi Narada
You can check for coolant in the oil by looking at the dipstick,alot of water in there it will be creamy looking.Now another check if it looks ok,get a cigarette lighter and burn the oil on the dipstick,if it burns cleanly shouldnt be water in it,if it spits and cracks whilost burning its a pretty good sign of water in the oil.

Thanks for the tip.
I tried this although the oil seemed to burn clean and does not look milky or off texture.
I also tried black knights suggestion and ran her to temp keeping a keen eye on the guage but there didnt seem to be any bubbles or surges in the coolant levels in overflow tank.
If it is the head gasket why would it be failing again when the head was reconditioned some 45k ago. And If I have caught it in time how much should I expect to pay for the repair through a reputable landy mechanic (not Dealer).
Thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions.

By the way when I ran her there was no smoke and all was normal.

[dullbird]

maybe it is as simple as you had a very bad tank of fuel.......and the smoke has stopped because you have burnt off the worst of it

[LandyAndy]

If its possible,take it to the people who have been doing the work in the past for a check-up.If not try and get refered to a good local to you landy fixeruperer.I wouldnt leave it too long,may have been a bad batch of fuel but really neads sorting ASAP incase it fails costing bigger $$$$
GOODLUCK
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

when you ran it at temp with the coolant cap off (take it for a drive like that which is when you need to watch the gauge) was it blowing smoke?

If it stops blowing smoke as you describe then that gaurentees the head gasket... Theres still a couple of other things it can be (valve stem seals, sticking rings for example)

But assuming its only the gasket and the head and deck are flat within tolerances (ask them to check then double check the measurements before comparing them to make sure that the total difference from level isnt exceeded in one place) I would expect you should be looking at about $500ish

Headgaskets sometimes let go especially if the original bolts have been reused or there was a mistake in the installation, for example some gaskets need to be re torqued after warm up others don't and its only a slip of concentration between doing it right and making a little mistake that wont turn up immediately.

I like dullbirds idea of it being water in the fuel but I would have also expected a loss of power, great difficulty in starting and no rising of the fuel level. but stranger things have happened pull the fuel/water sedimentror and the fuel filter and see what comes out of them.

you can also(if your not comfortable doing it please try and get someone from on the forum who lives near you and is confident enough to or your mechanic) remove the glow plugs and eyeball them, the concept is the same as reading the sparkplugs on a petrol engine. If you get them out take pics of them, post them here and one of the gurus (what is the collective word for more than one guru?) should be able to give you a better indication as to the cause.

[dullbird]

when you ran it at temp with the coolant cap off (take it for a drive like that which is when you need to watch the gauge) was it blowing smoke?

If it stops blowing smoke as you describe then that gaurentees the head gasket... Theres still a couple of other things it can be (valve stem seals, sticking rings for example)

But assuming its only the gasket and the head and deck are flat within tolerances (ask them to check then double check the measurements before comparing them to make sure that the total difference from level isnt exceeded in one place) I would expect you should be looking at about $500ish

Headgaskets sometimes let go especially if the original bolts have been reused or there was a mistake in the installation, for example some gaskets need to be re torqued after warm up others don't and its only a slip of concentration between doing it right and making a little mistake that wont turn up immediately.


I like dullbirds idea of it being water in the fuel but I would have also expected a loss of power, great difficulty in starting and no rising of the fuel level. but stranger things have happened pull the fuel/water sedimentror and the fuel filter and see what comes out of them.

you can also(if your not comfortable doing it please try and get someone from on the forum who lives near you and is confident enough to or your mechanic) remove the glow plugs and eyeball them, the concept is the same as reading the sparkplugs on a petrol engine. If you get them out take pics of them, post them here and one of the gurus (what is the collective word for more than one guru?) should be able to give you a better indication as to the cause.

I was thinking more poor quality of fuel...but i suppose that does incude water in the fuel also...
as for the loss of power and not starting, remember dave we only had momontary loss of power with are's, it started forst time everytime and it ran like it had run since new. so quite right stranger things had happened.

but in saying that we never had smoke! well actually we did when we first got it back from the dealer...after being fixed for the water problem it smoked a fair bit from start up and especially underload.......but once that tank of fuel had gone through no problem. had been put down to all the cleaning agents etc left behind from the flushing of the system

[justinc]

Try running it up again to operating temp with the cap on to build up cooling system pressure, or fit a pressure tester while running the engine then see if the 'steam' or smoke and coolant smell is still happening. My money (Not a lot to spare though ATM)is on a crack/ fissure in the head, possibly in an exhaust port. If it has an inlet port crack, then i'd be very concerned about hydraulic lock when starting after sitting for a time.:o

This can happen after a head is refitted, especially if the head was twisted etc and required machining quite a bit. The residual stresses remain in the casting, and these types of cracks appear along the original casting mold marks inside the inlet and exhaust tracts. Some are even visible after just removing the manifolds and looking in with a torch.

It is very difficult and not common practice to stress relieve ally Tdi heads, although I have now seen 3 crack like this, so I have started recommending replacing the heads instead of repairing them if they have been hot enough to bow or warp to a reasonable amount.

JC

[naradataranto]

So had the old girl looked at today and it's the head.
Untill they pull it off they said they wont know the extent but they are pushing me to just replace the head as aposed to get it skimmed again. Something about it having been done once already. So if they can repair it the $$ estimate is 1,800 to 2,200 and 3,200 to fit a new one.
I love the fender but my loyalty to her is being tested.
Can anyone confirm or deny if this is a normal price for the job.
and whats peoples opinion or repair or replace. Is repair a 100% fix or is it just better to replace. I only ask because it was done only 50k ago by landrover spares at silverdale.

Thanks for all your help, I apreciate the opinions.:(:(

[Blknight.aus]

providing that includes all the consumables and parts thats not too unreasonable assuming they also do all the other little things that should be done but sometimes arent when a new head goes on.

[PAT303]

So had the old girl looked at today and it's the head.
Untill they pull it off they said they wont know the extent but they are pushing me to just replace the head as aposed to get it skimmed again. Something about it having been done once already. So if they can repair it the $$ estimate is 1,800 to 2,200 and 3,200 to fit a new one.
I love the fender but my loyalty to her is being tested.
Can anyone confirm or deny if this is a normal price for the job.
and whats peoples opinion or repair or replace. Is repair a 100% fix or is it just better to replace. I only ask because it was done only 50k ago by landrover spares at silverdale.

Thanks for all your help, I apreciate the opinions.:(:(

A new head is $950 and gaskets abit more so $3200 is alot for the job.I wouldn't get it skimmed again.The head has been upgraded as well. Pat

[87County]

So had the old girl looked at today

............
I love the fender but my loyalty to her is being tested.

....................:(:(

one thing to keep in mind, subject to the cylinder bores being in good nick, once you have spent that money you will have an engine with a substantially extended life in front of you (literally)

regards - Laurie

[cobar 130]

Ok so on my way home from work my 94Tdi 110 started blowing rediculous amounts of white smoke when the car was stoped at lights. It seems to run fine and sounds as per usual but obviously all is not well.

Any suggestions? I am no serious mechanic and will take it to someone although Would love to know what to expect.

Any help appreciated.[/QUOTE]

[cobar 130]

Ok so on my way home from work my 94Tdi 110 started blowing rediculous amounts of white smoke when the car was stoped at lights. It seems to run fine and sounds as per usual but obviously all is not well.

Any suggestions? I am no serious mechanic and will take it to someone although Would love to know what to expect.

Any help appreciated.[/QUOTE]

Had same problem,had a blocked breather hose,replaced vacuum hose and filter block all is well again.

[justinc]

So had the old girl looked at today and it's the head.
Untill they pull it off they said they wont know the extent but they are pushing me to just replace the head as aposed to get it skimmed again. Something about it having been done once already. So if they can repair it the $$ estimate is 1,800 to 2,200 and 3,200 to fit a new one.
I love the fender but my loyalty to her is being tested.
Can anyone confirm or deny if this is a normal price for the job.
and whats peoples opinion or repair or replace. Is repair a 100% fix or is it just better to replace. I only ask because it was done only 50k ago by landrover spares at silverdale.

Thanks for all your help, I apreciate the opinions.:(:(

Fit a new head. That price is OK if they are supplying a genuine head(They are made in South america, but of superior quality). The non genuine heads out there are a lot cheaper, but we have had one recntly just out of warranty that has failed due to cracking between valve inserts etc. This vehicle then had to have another head, this time a genuine one so the $$ saved in the first instance wasn't saved at all!..I would do it once properly.

Don't forget, the heads come bare, so that price also includes fitting/ cutting valves/ seats and assembly prior to fitting to vehicle.(Studs, injectors, core plugs etc etc etc )

The consequences of a head failure COULD be an engine failure, so you want to get it right.

JC

[mills rover]

hi guys
im having a similar problem with my defender 200 tdi .
first thing in the morning when i start her it runs rough and really smokey then as temp comes up smoke goes and runs normal this as only just started in the last week i though to change my crankcase ventilator as ive found oil in my air cleaner and thought that would be the cheapest way to work out the problem .
but i think shes worse now really running rough and blue smoke hang around for ages its definetly oil but where is it comong from and why ?
maybe a cracked ring or stuck ring anyone got any ides where i can start to look .because she runs so rough i also thought maybe an injector as it seems to be running flooded as soon as i start her .
whats weird is once i get her up to running temp she starts and rins all day like theres nothing wrong with her but sure enough the next morning she does it again , i think its getting worse morning by morning too . shes clocked up 250 thousand ks and still goes really well apart from this problem in the morning .
has anyopne got any ideas on what it could be and how to go about fixing it
thanks guys