Could this happen here ?

[rick130]

And if it was attempted, how 'vigorously' would you oppose it ?
What the hell has happened ?


Government will spy on every call and e-mail

David Leppard

Ministers are considering spending up to £12 billion on a database to monitor and store the internet browsing habits, e-mail and telephone records of everyone in Britain.
GCHQ, the government’s eavesdropping centre, has already been given up to £1 billion to finance the first stage of the project.
Hundreds of clandestine probes will be installed to monitor customers live on two of the country’s biggest internet and mobile phone providers - thought to be BT and Vodafone. BT has nearly 5m internet customers.
Ministers are braced for a backlash similar to the one caused by their ID cards programme. Dominic Grieve, the shadow home secretary, said: “Any suggestion of the government using existing powers to intercept communications data without public discussion is going to sound extremely sinister.”
Related Links


There’s no hiding place as spy HQ plans to see all (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4882622.ece)
First ID cards are to be issued within weeks (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4825353.ece)

MI5 currently conducts limited e-mail and website intercepts which are approved under specific warrants by the home secretary.
Further details of the new plan will be unveiled next month in the Queen’s speech.
The Home Office stressed no formal decision had been taken but sources said officials had made clear that ministers had agreed “in principle” to the programme.
Officials claim live monitoring is necessary to fight terrorism and crime. However, critics question whether such a vast system can be kept secure. A total of 57 billion text messages were sent in the UK last year - 1,800 every second.


Government will spy on every call and e-mail - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4882600.ece)

[incisor]

its already happening, has been for years and australians don't give a **** and continue not to..

[rick130]

I suppose the difference is that they are upfront about it there, here it'll be discussed in a bipartisan fashion and suggested they wont tell the punters as "they don't need to know"

Be alert, not alarmed, eh....... :(

Trading away all our freedoms because of fear.

[Xavie]

How long for someone here to come along and say if your not doing anything wrong then why does it matter???

I think it matters even if I am not doing anything wrong. I think it is a bit sad that such a thing is happening but on the flip side it can be stored but it can't be monitored in reality...or can it?

I'm interested in Incs comment about it happening here. Could you expand on it? I.e. when does it happen to who etc..? Or are you saying it is more covert then say the U.k. or?

Xav

[clean32]

Mate, common knowledge its called ECHELON




How long for someone here to come along and say if your not doing anything wrong then why does it matter???

I think it matters even if I am not doing anything wrong. I think it is a bit sad that such a thing is happening but on the flip side it can be stored but it can't be monitored in reality...or can it?

I'm interested in Incs comment about it happening here. Could you expand on it? I.e. when does it happen to who etc..? Or are you saying it is more covert then say the U.k. or?

Xav

[Xavie]

Interesting. Just googled it to read about it.

[p38arover]

That only mentions satellite monitoring in Australia. It doesn't mention the system that went into service in 2000-2001 and which monitors submarine cable traffic.

[WhiteD3]

if your not doing anything wrong then why does it matter???

Mate, glad you said it, took the words right out of my mouth:D:D

Yes it's a misquote but I agree. It's not that I'm happy about my comms, credit details, spending habits, etc being monitored because I'm not.

BUT that's not the issue or really the question.

The question we need to ask is what level of freedom and privacy should the bad guys be given, and hence how much of your's are you willing to give away?

If you're a conspiracy theorist you won't want govt doing this. But if it saved the life of a loved one, or that of hundreds of people you don't even know, would you do it?

I would. If it doesn't work out we can vote them out next election.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I doubt the aussie public is worried enough to change a government over it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I doubt the aussie public is worried enough to change a government over it.

I think that's the kind of thing that all govts do. :o

[DiscoStew]

Mate, common knowledge its called ECHELON

I don't doubt Echelon exists but I cannot comprehend that it is nearly as extensive as some authors claim. The amount of data generated in communications every day is phenomenal and while processing power is increasing exponentially I simply cannot see every communication globally being monitored. IT would have to be targeted.

[RaZz0R]

simple answer here is to encrypt your email :) if you have a worry about it all

[Slunnie]

Mate, glad you said it, took the words right out of my mouth:D:D

Yes it's a misquote but I agree. It's not that I'm happy about my comms, credit details, spending habits, etc being monitored because I'm not.

BUT that's not the issue or really the question.

The question we need to ask is what level of freedom and privacy should the bad guys be given, and hence how much of your's are you willing to give away?

If you're a conspiracy theorist you won't want govt doing this. But if it saved the life of a loved one, or that of hundreds of people you don't even know, would you do it?

I would. If it doesn't work out we can vote them out next election.
Thats it.

I think they wont be interested in what 99% of the population are doing, but the information that they do gather may just save other incidents in the future, and as an extreme perhaps it may have saved 911. We all say that it'll never happen to us, as probaby did the NY population and nobody is immune. Go for it I say and keep the place as safe as practically possible.

[clean32]

That only mentions satellite monitoring in Australia. It doesn't mention the system that went into service in 2000-2001 and which monitors submarine cable traffic.

I haven’t googled it so I don’t know what you have read.
But ECHELON grew out of what was impart the coast watchers job during WW2 and the Navy before it. basically it started with listening to radio waves and then Phone lines, submarine cables have always been monitored, the Trafic.

Ironically the Russian federation is much more open about all this. As a side note Blackberry’s only became available last year in the RF because the network managers (US ) only finally agreed to give the FSB the technology and hardware to monitor there networks. technology and hardware that they can now use anywhere in the world, where western agencies tend to try and crack private systems, the RF just made it law that you have to give it to them

back to ECHELON

google Mikhail Lermontov , and ask yourself how a Pilot of 20years in good standing make such a mistake? and why he got a well paid job after? Putin was the KGB officer in wellington at the time. Why the ship has never been raised. And why only NZ, Aussie and US Navy divers have ever been allowed on her? And lastly the records of her sinking are sealed, a first for NZ maritime history.

[clean32]

I don't doubt Echelon exists but I cannot comprehend that it is nearly as extensive as some authors claim. The amount of data generated in communications every day is phenomenal and while processing power is increasing exponentially I simply cannot see every communication globally being monitored. IT would have to be targeted.


is is and more so
just look up how many IBM Blue's have been manufactured, then look at how many are in private hands. that will give you some idea

[clean32]

simple answer here is to encrypt your email :) if you have a worry about it all

And that will not work, as posted above in regards to the Russian federation, just to name one country. For Microsoft to sell there software, or any software for that matter all encryption must be given to the FSB, in fact it illegal to have any encryption that the FSB hasn’t got itsself. The charge is Extremism and under RF law that has the penalty with out a court or any investigation of death, by any means, regardless of country of residence. The RF applies this law to nay RF citizen, any person born in the RF or former soviet states, any State that the RF regards and there sphere of influence, IE Cuba Venissalia etc.i am blabbing on about RF but the US is no different.

It is also used to get messages to individuals in the system, just depends on how the key words are set up.

IE by typing Echelon, this web site will come to the attention of say ? 1500 individuals, by adding Putin kill bush maybe another 25 but with a yellow flag.

But if I add some thing like green day I know by prior arrangement that a hard copy will hit a one individual’s desk within 3 mints of me hitting enter

[clean32]

I do not know of any example of where this has happened. Although there are quite a few examples of Aussie trade has benefited




Thats it.

I think they wont be interested in what 99% of the population are doing, but the information that they do gather may just save other incidents in the future, and as an extreme perhaps it may have saved 911. We all say that it'll never happen to us, as probaby did the NY population and nobody is immune. Go for it I say and keep the place as safe as practically possible.

[DiscoStew]

google Mikhail Lermontov , and ask yourself how a Pilot of 20years in good standing make such a mistake? and why he got a well paid job after? Putin was the KGB officer in wellington at the time. Why the ship has never been raised. And why only NZ, Aussie and US Navy divers have ever been allowed on her? And lastly the records of her sinking are sealed, a first for NZ maritime history.

Googled it, read a couple of articles and don't see what it has to do with anything. Many a competent person has stuffed up when exhausted, doesn't seem to be any restriction on diving around it, I didn't think it is standard practice to raise ships which have no meaningful cargo and there seems to be undisputed, consistent accounts about how it sunk.

Keep in mind how much data is required to store communications, especially voice and video and just how many communications there are around the world. Not to mention the amount of processing to convert all of the analogue signals to digital for storage. Sure there are plenty of IBM Blues etc are out there but they would not get close to processing all that data in real-time, looking for a broad range of phrases across many languages. Don't believe the Hollywood hype about what is possible.

We will probably have to agree to disagree. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I go by the old adage of "don't attribute an event to conspiracy when it can be simply explained by incompetence."

[EchiDna]

lol... just think of the software/cubicle rats required to read this thread and every keystroke typed worrying about it... not forgetting listening to skype conversations, every phone call etc etc... Oz will need another 500,000 people just to do that... then who checks the checkers?? oh dear, we need another layer of checking...

[p38arover]

Unlike most, I've seen some of the monitoring equipment in Oz.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The volume of data is so big that they could only search for very very small snippets.

It doesn't worry me as I am essentially dull. :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well, I won't say its OK coz it doesn't worry me ;) but it doesn't worry me in the least...I haven't done anything wrong and have already had ASIO go thru my life once :(


WOW. I've not heard of that happening. Is it something you can tell us about on-line?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Can I just say at this point that I employed a lady a while back. Her name was Kelly - Anne. But she had changed it from just Kelly. The reason was that there was someone else with precisely the same name and birthdate, and the problems she had were unbelievable. In the end the easiest solution for her was to change her name :o

[JohnF]

Can I just say at this point that I employed a lady a while back. Her name was Kelly - Anne. But she had changed it from just Kelly. The reason was that there was someone else with precisely the same name and birthdate, and the problems she had were unbelievable. In the end the easiest solution for her was to change her name :o

A few years ago we had our Church minister, who is named Darren Parker tell us that he tried to become a JP. Someone else had the same name, same birth-day, plus they had a police record, so they told him he could never become a JP. certainly if you have a common name you could be mistaken for someone else, not condidering identity theft.

[JohnF]

I doubt the aussie public is worried enough to change a government over it.

Even if we did change the government over it, the new government would probably not remove the system once it is installed. I am more worried about our errosions of freedom of speech, etc. Remember at the 2000 olympics giving out religious material was banned. Also during the 2008 Popes visit giving out any thing Anti-Roman Catholic was banned. Seems they cannot stand critisism, genuine or not. To me that is the danger in this monitoring of what we do. It could invade our freedom of Speech.

[mark2]

Even if we did change the government over it, the new government would probably not remove the system once it is installed. I am more worried about our errosions of freedom of speech, etc. Remember at the 2000 olympics giving out religious material was banned. Also during the 2008 Popes visit giving out any thing Anti-Roman Catholic was banned. Seems they cannot stand critisism, genuine or not. To me that is the danger in this monitoring of what we do. It could invade our freedom of Speech.

Most of our freedoms of speech have already been invaded/eroded. Thats not to say we have no freedom of speech, but there are limits and they are getting tighter by the day.

As for monitoring systems saving lives, any terrorist with half a brain knows about them and ways around them, the simplest being not using mobile phones, or the internet.

I would rather have freedom and live with risk than rely on Big Brother to keep me feeling 'safe'.

[incisor]

simple answer here is to encrypt your email :) if you have a worry about it all

thats why it is illegal to do so in many countries..

most major forms of communication are monitored including places like this ;)

[JDNSW]

What nobody seems to have commented on is the major problem - given a system large enough to monitor all traffic, and fast enough to do so without an undue burden on systems*, it will not only have security on the low side, at least partly simply because of the number of people involved, but will be an irresistible target to anyone who is interested.

The result is that it is virtually certain that the government will not be the only one going through the traffic - so will any organisation that has sufficient stake and insufficient ethics, which comes to a large number, including the criminal and terrorist groups being targetted.

*Maybe I am underestimating the amount of slowdown people will stand - after all this is essentially what you put up with if you run Windows plus security software!

John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

What nobody seems to have commented on is the major problem - given a system large enough to monitor all traffic, and fast enough to do so without an undue burden on systems*, it will not only have security on the low side, at least partly simply because of the number of people involved, but will be an irresistible target to anyone who is interested.

John
I went to a presentation by Oracle recently. In their new software they are making changes to limit access to data by DBA's. The guy said he was talking to one of the security organisations in Aus and they said

"This data is so sensitive that only two officers and 150 Database Administrators have access to it" :D:D

[Olive Drab]

The poms are up front because they got caught doing this years ago spying on the French. undercutting them for civil work tenders. It was big news and the vigilant IT crowd over there have been unrelenting in bashing the government about this

[olbod]

We all have to pay the price in the fight to keep america safe !!!

Which reminds Him, anyone gotta recipe for homemade cyanide ?:twisted: