A marketing opportunity missed

[dmdigital]

I think Land Rover really missed a great sales opportunity with the Puma engine. For those who haven't looked under the bonnet, the motor and fan sit a good 12" or more back from radiator etc. The fan cowl resembles a wind tunnel.

Think of what they could have done...

If they had thought about it...

Moved the radiator, intercooler and aircon cooler back closer to the fan...

Thus recessing it in between the protruding front guards...

Viola! A retro series vehicle is born :cool:


Now don't you think that would have sold well? Especially as a 60th anniversary vehicle :D

[B92 8NW]

True... But with all that space they should have made a limited edition global warming model with a V10 diesel with twin turbs.... :burnrubber::D

[Bigbjorn]

Best thing they could have done with that space is to put a 5 or 6 litre inline six in there. However we all know that starting with a decent size engine is a totally unknown concept in British automotive design circles. So what do they do? Put in an anaemic piddly little 2.4 litre four cylinder from the plumber's van.

[dmdigital]

Brian I think you missed the point. Since when was a series a 5 or 6L?

Anyway I'm more than happy with the plumber's van engine over both Tdi and Td5.


Just think of the comments you'd get with a brand new series look alike though, regardless of the horse power:cool:

[Michael2]

Room for a TDV6 - which should have gone in in the first place.

[TimNZ]

Put in an anaemic piddly little 2.4 litre four cylinder from the plumber's van.

Have you driven a TDCi Defender Brian?

[Bigbjorn]

Brian I think you missed the point. Since when was a series a 5 or 6L?

:

They were not, and that is why LR lost the market to Toyota and Nissan. Not enough engine to give the performance the buyers wanted. This was typical behaviour from British industry at the time. Bulid what you can or what you want to build and never ever build what the customers want and then blame the dealers for the loss of market share. Remember when Britain had a motor cycle industry? Remember what happened to it?

And Range Rover! Rover buy an engine from GM that had already been built in a 5 litre version. So what do Rover do? Build it at 3.5 litres and put it in a two ton car. Should have been 5 litres from the go. Would have been a ripper of a high performance 4WD if that had been done.

[Blknight.aus]

put in a motor that when you hit the suspension in just the right way... (say every time you use the chassis/suspension to its capable limits off road) you stick your front propshaft UJ into the engine sump.



Now normally Im a big fan of lubing UJ's but IMHO engine oil is a mite thin and the stuff in the sump might have some graphite/carbon content that may increase the wear rate of the UJ anyway.....

The sump modification may also increase the air/oil interface area allowing the oil to cool more rapidly prolonging the oils expected life but I think that, agricultural as they are, even the Deefer isnt that agricultural and fitting a proper oil cooler would be the better answer.

[dmdigital]

This is what I had in mind...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/557.jpg

You're missing the point, its what they could have done to the style of the vehicle, not the mechanicals.

[Sleepy]

Yeah cool idea - but it's gotta be green!

How about this one?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/10/702.jpg

[dmdigital]

:cool::cool::cool::cool::D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I think they would have a lot more interest in a 60th Anniversary model than the SVX one

[MacFamily]

This is what I had in mind...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/557.jpg

You're missing the point, its what they could have done to the style of the vehicle, not the mechanicals.

I get your point dm_td5 Iam not going to get into the engine debate as ive never driven a new one and I like my 300tdi fender....

I like it ill have one in a 90 please :D...The missus can keep the 110 300tdi and ill have the 90 as my toy :clap2:

[dullbird]

They were not, and that is why LR lost the market to Toyota and Nissan. Not enough engine to give the performance the buyers wanted. This was typical behaviour from British industry at the time. Bulid what you can or what you want to build and never ever build what the customers want and then blame the dealers for the loss of market share. Remember when Britain had a motor cycle industry? Remember what happened to it?

And Range Rover! Rover buy an engine from GM that had already been built in a 5 litre version. So what do Rover do? Build it at 3.5 litres and put it in a two ton car. Should have been 5 litres from the go. Would have been a ripper of a high performance 4WD if that had been done.


i really dont understand why you own a landrover (i'm actually assuming you do own one my apologise if you don't) as you seem to do nothing but whinge about them and the way landrover build them....

your the first landy owner i know that is infact a closet toyota lover:D..
it's usually the other way around:o:p

[Slunnie]

I think Brian is just being a realist and brings up some very good points. I think that he is on the money personally. It's not Landy knocking, its just the way that LR do things and perhaps there are reasons for it, such as pommy tax laws etc.

[dullbird]

i wasn't meaning to offend...just joking around!

but there are reasons for landrover doing it which are pointed out EVERY time he bashes the same old line...

and it is very much to do with laws and tax and the size of the countries in which landrovers are used..

he does have good points...i dont think deep down anyone disagrees with that, but he doesn't seem to be able to except that there are reasons for which landrover do these things. :)

I'm sure if we could all design landrovers they would be much better!!!

[Slunnie]

Absolutely. To do design a new LandRover from home is to do it without restriction, considerations or error. :D

[dullbird]

and as you see above is done in about 20mins :p....i'm sure if brian asked dm_td5 or sleepy would happily stick a big air intake on the bonnet and some slick dragster wheels on the back :D
to give him that big engined feel :D

[EchiDna]

dullbird, Brian is one of the elite of the elite - he has a late 1980's 110 4BD1 :) not the anaemic 2.5 litre land rover diesel of the time....

[camel_landy]

This is what I had in mind...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/557.jpg

You're missing the point, its what they could have done to the style of the vehicle, not the mechanicals.

Eugh!

Each to their own but I've never really been a fan of the Series vehicles.

M

[camel_landy]

Have you driven a TDCi Defender Brian?

It's all right, Brian's just jealous... :tease:

[p38arover]

And Range Rover! Rover buy an engine from GM that had already been built in a 5 litre version. So what do Rover do? Build it at 3.5 litres and put it in a two ton car. Should have been 5 litres from the go. Would have been a ripper of a high performance 4WD if that had been done.


The point is, Brian, Rover bought the engine, not a licence to build one. Had GM built a light weight 5 litre alloy V8 at that time and was it for sale?

At the time Rover bought the engine, 3.5 litres was big by British standards. The car for which it was bought was not the Rangie but a Rover saloon that wasn't sold in big numbers outside Britain. The engine was light for a V8 and was ideal at the the time.

[Bigbjorn]

The point is, Brian, Rover bought the engine, not a licence to build one. Had GM built a light weight 5 litre alloy V8 at that time and was it for sale?

At the time Rover bought the engine, 3.5 litres was big by British standards. The car for which it was bought was not the Rangie but a Rover saloon that wasn't sold in big numbers outside Britain. The engine was light for a V8 and was ideal at the the time.

As I said in the earlier post, GM had already built that engine family in 5 litres. They had also built a turbocharged version.

Land Rover had to export. Their home market was to small to survive on. But LR consistently refused to provide what the export customers wanted. I was at Leyland when we were being totally flogged by Toyota in the market place and the principal reason was lack of performance. They were not alone in this. Britain once had a heavy truck industry and it died for the same reasons, refusal to accept that the overseas customers wanted and needed horsepower. Leyland Australia sent a presentation to the UK truck people telling them how the Oz heavy truck business was lost and how it could be somewhat recovered. They were told that a 400 hp prime mover that could haul a gross of 45 tons at a level road cruising speed of 60mph with some degree of driver comfort was needed asap. The American trucks sold in Oz, Kenworth, White, Mack etc were already doing this and had taken the market. The amazing reply was that no one needed that much power in a truck and 60mph cruising speed was dangerous! RIP the British heavy truck industry, now barely in existence except for a tiny number of specialists.

The British motor cycle industry died for the same reasons. They kept on making their obsolete designs, whilst the Japanese provided machines with self-starters, reliable electric systems, oil tight mechanicals, good appearance, good performance, and good prices.

My experiences at Leyland showed the poms to have a patronising, paternalistic attitude towards "colonials". They did not consider that anything we wanted or any local modifications we did had merit.

[dullbird]

one very disgruntled customer.:D

[PAT303]

I'll tell all of you that Brian has a very good point.A contract company I work with,and many others will follow suit bought Hilux's when the rules change so that airbags must be fitted to site vehicles,the sales went through the roof,next year Toyota are fitting cruisers with airbags FOR THE AUSTRALIAN MARKET ONLY!!.So guess what,all the companys are going to switch over when they arrive.A fleet of hilux's one year,a fleet of cruisers the next.No wonder tojo are laughing all the way to the bank.One more thing,there is a demand for heavy dual cab utes,They aren't buying 130's,instead they are paying $14,000 per conversion to make LC wagons into dual cab utes.The market for work vehicles in Oz is near 80,000 units per year,LR sell about 200.Enough said. Pat

[dullbird]

i dont think it would really matter what landrover sold.........whether they had a big engine in them or not.

i cant tell you how many people i have talked to here about landrovers....and the first thing they say is how unreliable they are, and they have never driven them.

I cant see how you would expect landrover to make something solely for australia, when landrover themselves know they have no prospective market here. and are to lazy to do anything about it.

they have some of there cars up there in the luxury car market, why would they put there efforts into the defender? dont forget the defender was going to get canned, because they were not interested in developing it further...hence the ford engine i believe, they brought what they could afford not what they could develop.

it may of been a different sotry if landrover could still sell defenders in the usa..but i'm guessing it was just too hard to develop it to put airbags in....or was it that putting airbags in was getting a little too silly for a farmers car I dont know.

the fact of the matter is, they were not going to catter for australia....and they probably never will. so not amount of whinging because the car has a small engine is going to change things the car is built for EUROPE and europe doesn't want big engined cars they cost to much in tax, fuel and insurance. why do you think heaps of people in the UK drive around in things that have less power than your mums hair dryer.. the usual is around 1.8 to 2ltr:D

our fiat in the uk was 1.2......If australia brought a tax in and charged you on engine size and immissions i bet a few people would change there minds:p

[Bigbjorn]

one very disgruntled customer.:D

No, perhaps at one time a disgruntled staff member. We marketing types knew what was needed to stay in the marketplace and maybe even recover some market share. We were bashing our heads against a head office ostrich-head-in-the-sand attitude.

LR almost totally lost the Australian market over the next thirty years and now don't even have a dealer network to sell the product through should they ever manufacture an acceptable outback/rough use vehicle. At least in the seventies there were dealers in places as small as Quilpie, Thargomindah, Winton, & Dirranbandi.

[Slunnie]

They were told that a 400 hp prime mover that could haul a gross of 45 tons at a level road cruising speed of 60mph with some degree of driver comfort was needed asap. The American trucks sold in Oz, Kenworth, White, Mack etc were already doing this and had taken the market. The amazing reply was that no one needed that much power in a truck and 60mph cruising speed was dangerous! RIP the British heavy truck industry, now barely in existence except for a tiny number of specialists.
I think the 24t 190hp International Acco that I learnt on was probably more dangerous. Gotta love being passed while empty even in the current Isuzu 24t trucks by a 600Hp B-double. Now what would the Brit truckers think of 600hp. :D They clearly didn't understand Aus conditions.

[Greylandy]

I'll tell all of you that Brian has a very good point.A contract company I work with,and many others will follow suit bought Hilux's when the rules change so that airbags must be fitted to site vehicles,the sales went through the roof,next year Toyota are fitting cruisers with airbags FOR THE AUSTRALIAN MARKET ONLY!!.So guess what,all the companys are going to switch over when they arrive.A fleet of hilux's one year,a fleet of cruisers the next.No wonder tojo are laughing all the way to the bank.One more thing,there is a demand for heavy dual cab utes,They aren't buying 130's,instead they are paying $14,000 per conversion to make LC wagons into dual cab utes.The market for work vehicles in Oz is near 80,000 units per year,LR sell about 200.Enough said. Pat

My two cents ..

Land Rover is as much interested in that market as Bentley or Aston Martin .. and have been for a long time. I firmly believe when the SUV became the next big thing, Land Rover made the decision to focus on a niche market of speciality, luxury SUV models and extracted themselves from the utility market. The development of the Defender got left behind because money was spent on upgrading the RR, Discovery and Freelander to fit that market space.

The only reason the Defender is still around is because:
A) It is still popular in EU and provides a return for the company without spending too much on development
B) Is still used and bought by the armed forces
c) Provides a heritage to the other models that adds to the luxury appeal of the Land Rover brand.

This was apparent back in the days when BMW bought Land ROver. They never intended to buy the brand to sell mass produced utility vehicles. They didn't give a toss if Toyota were selling thousands of utility vehicles in AU, neither did Ford (Who bought Land Rover for the same reason, a luxury car brand). I doubt Tata, with a utility background, is even interested in moving the defender into that market space, I think they will make the new defender a lifestyle vehicle that will complete the Land Rover transformation.

We should be comparing LR to Jeep, with Jeep being the poor cousin with a similar range of vehicles.

[2 rocks]

We should be comparing LR to Jeep, with Jeep being the poor cousin with a similar range of vehicles.

Well I agree and disagree.They too have suffered with ownership changes (though perhaps not to the same degree). I think the comparison is more likely outside of the US than in Jeep's home market. Similar range, well, I think a Grand Chero maybe equivalent to an up-spec Disco, but not into RR territory. ??

Jeep haven't had anything in the marketplace to equate to a Defender for sometime - since the end of the J20 perhaps. However the new J8 (including mil-spec versions) may be if/when it goes into production. The JK Unlimited really occupies its own niche market space.

...But the white flag has certainly come out for Jeep with the release of the Patriot and Compass. The Patriot is built on a Mitsubishi platform, welcome to the slippery slope of RAV4's, Outlanders etc, etc!

Cheers
Mike

[PAT303]

All these posts have good points. Pat

[Scallops]

Best thing they could have done with that space is to put a 5 or 6 litre inline six in there. However we all know that starting with a decent size engine is a totally unknown concept in British automotive design circles. So what do they do? Put in an anaemic piddly little 2.4 litre four cylinder from the plumber's van.

What I disagree with about this often discussed issue regarding the Defender needing a large capacity motor is that this notion implies that the Puma engine is somehow inadequate - which it is not.

The only situation where a larger engine would "benefit" this vehicle would be in acceleration from a standing start. But I didn't buy a Defender to use as a drag car. It doesn't really concern me if I'm slow off the mark.

I have found this engine has plenty of usable power and torque. In addition, it returns good economy. But one also needs to consider the entire drivetrain of this vehicle - large capacity engines create additional stresses on components and impact on wear and tear.

Even if a larger engine were available - I'd stick to the Puma.

PS - dm_TD5 - I lurve the look of that retro Fender you photoshopped - I would have bought one in a flash.

[Greylandy]

Well I agree and disagree.They too have suffered with ownership changes (though perhaps not to the same degree). I think the comparison is more likely outside of the US than in Jeep's home market. Similar range, well, I think a Grand Chero maybe equivalent to an up-spec Disco, but not into RR territory. ??

Jeep haven't had anything in the marketplace to equate to a Defender for sometime - since the end of the J20 perhaps. However the new J8 (including mil-spec versions) may be if/when it goes into production. The JK Unlimited really occupies its own niche market space.

...But the white flag has certainly come out for Jeep with the release of the Patriot and Compass. The Patriot is built on a Mitsubishi platform, welcome to the slippery slope of RAV4's, Outlanders etc, etc!

Cheers
Mike

You are correct Mike .. but Jeep is certainly a closer cousin to Land Rover than Nissan or Toyota will ever be. Both are speciality brands and have good sales in their market of manufacture with a "similar" product range.

Definitely agree about the Patriot and Compass. The lucrative small SUV market is attracting a lot of players but some will die a slow death, me thinks Jeep will be one of them.

We cannot argue that Land Rover's decision to go upmarket has produced some good returns making them profitable for the first time in many years.
That is not possible in a niche market unless you've got good products and a good understanding of the market you are operating in. Let's leave the mass production to Mr. Toyota, they obviously do it well.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I'll tell all of you that Brian has a very good point.A contract company I work with,and many others will follow suit bought Hilux's when the rules change so that airbags must be fitted to site vehicles,the sales went through the roof,next year Toyota are fitting cruisers with airbags FOR THE AUSTRALIAN MARKET ONLY!!.So guess what,all the companys are going to switch over when they arrive.A fleet of hilux's one year,a fleet of cruisers the next.No wonder tojo are laughing all the way to the bank.One more thing,there is a demand for heavy dual cab utes,They aren't buying 130's,instead they are paying $14,000 per conversion to make LC wagons into dual cab utes.The market for work vehicles in Oz is near 80,000 units per year,LR sell about 200.Enough said. Pat

Originally, BHP ( I think) contacted Toyota about the lack of airbags due to new workplace safety laws. Toyota in Japan bluntly stated they were not interested in fitting the new Handbruiser range with airbags as the volumes were not there and the worldwide demand didnt warrant it, not to mention the fact that there is no provision anyway for an airbag system in either the physical dash space or the electrics.
Subsequently, Nissan were approached and said 'no problem, just mark it on the options list!!'
Nissan scored an order for 150 Patrol cab chassis' with TD42T engines with a few more orders to follow.

Hilux was the only other option, but for down hole work, are a little under powered so tend to be found more as general pit and site vehicles.

The dealer support network for Landrover I agree is pretty bad. I would never go to either of the two LR dealers here in Perth and most likely not to the regional ones either as they are all essentially interlinked through Barbagallos.

There is no way LR would ever get into this market here even if they did produce a vehicle far superior to Toymota for mine work as the support would be abismal to say the least. Having a good knowledge of the Toyota dealer network here, it was only due to the lack of airbags that got Nissan an order in the first place.
The Toyota supply network is absolutely second to none.

[PAT303]

I totally disagree about the tojo supply network being second to none.You can buy LR parts off the shelf for any LR from a series one up.A month ago I could not get a starter motor for a 2006 hilux,radiator hoses for a 06 Prado or injectors for a 07 Prado.None in oz.I'm in Kal with a huge tojo dealership but they keep all their parts over east.All they stock are engine filters. Pat

[dobbo]

What I disagree with about this often discussed issue regarding the Defender needing a large capacity motor is that this notion implies that the Puma engine is somehow inadequate - which it is not.

The only situation where a larger engine would "benefit" this vehicle would be in acceleration from a standing start. But I didn't buy a Defender to use as a drag car. It doesn't really concern me if I'm slow off the mark.

I have found this engine has plenty of usable power and torque. In addition, it returns good economy. But one also needs to consider the entire drivetrain of this vehicle - large capacity engines create additional stresses on components and impact on wear and tear.

Even if a larger engine were available - I'd stick to the Puma.

PS - dm_TD5 - I lurve the look of that retro Fender you photoshopped - I would have bought one in a flash.


I get great economy out of my large Isuzu diesel. And yes I have driven a Puma, 300tdi and TD5, IMHO I'd prefer the Isuzu. Acceleration in a 110, whats that? Having all the power in the world will not assist in acceleration when the vehicle is engineered and geared to go slow.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I totally disagree about the tojo supply network being second to none.You can buy LR parts off the shelf for any LR from a series one up.A month ago I could not get a starter motor for a 2006 hilux,radiator hoses for a 06 Prado or injectors for a 07 Prado.None in oz.I'm in Kal with a huge tojo dealership but they keep all their parts over east.All they stock are engine filters. Pat

Goldfields dont stock a whole lot. I know, I used to deal with them. They are the only dealer in Kal, but most of the mines have contracts with New Towns here in Perth.
For all those items, you dont need to go genuine and would be much better off contacting OE parts distributors. Any diesel fuel injection place will get you the OE injectors without the genuine prices. Will PM you with details on where you can go.

[JohnE]

i really dont understand why you own a landrover (i'm actually assuming you do own one my apologise if you don't) as you seem to do nothing but whinge about them and the way landrover build them....

your the first landy owner i know that is infact a closet toyota lover:D..
it's usually the other way around:o:p



interesting thread, some very valid points, but why is it that when anyone on here bags a landrover they almost always become a toyota lover. Even as a joke it is starting to wear thin.

I have had 4 toyotas and a mitsubishi and am a toyota lover !!!! I never spent the same amount of time under them as I have with the landrover.

Landrovers aren;t the ducks guts,they are the ultimate POS, when compared to a landcruiser.
they are a vehicle that certain people take a fancy to and I am one of them,
not because they are technologically brilliant
not because they are the best off road vehicle that can be found,
not because the power to weight is fantastic,
not because the ride is brilliant
its because they have a certain something that I like.Thats why I have them and enjoy working on them
Each unto their own.

Some of you make out the land rover is the bee knees, we all know its not, thats why there are so many headings on here on how to fix the bloody things when something leaks, breaks, or generally doesn;t work.

And on other marques, someone could correct me if i am wrong, but don;t some of the larger overseas vehicle manufacturers do their prototype testing in the outback.
And landrover do theirs in the factory backyard to duplicate world conditions!!




john

[dullbird]

interesting thread, some very valid points,
but why is it that when anyone on here bags a landrover they almost always become a toyota lover. Even as a joke it is starting to wear thin.
I have had 4 toyotas and a mitsubishi and am a toyota lover !!!! I never spent the same amount of time under them as I have with the landrover.



Landrovers aren;t the ducks guts,they are the ultimate POS, when compared to a landcruiser.
they are a vehicle that certain people take a fancy to and I am one of them,
not because they are technologically brilliant
not because they are the best off road vehicle that can be found,
not because the power to weight is fantastic,
not because the ride is brilliant
its because they have a certain something that I like.Thats why I have them and enjoy working on them
Each unto their own.


Some of you make out the land rover is the bee knees, we all know its not, thats why there are so many headings on here on how to fix the bloody things when something leaks, breaks, or generally doesn;t work.

And on other marques, someone could correct me if i am wrong, but don;t some of the larger overseas vehicle manufacturers do their prototype testing in the outback.
And landrover do theirs in the factory backyard to duplicate world conditions!!




john

wow it really is getting harder to have a joke around here now isn't:o...i understand what your saying john about the wearing thin, but i think the whole landrover bagging thing is getting even thinner:(.
you may get offended, when someone jokingly calls someone a toyota lover!
the same as i may get offended when someone or some particular people conituniously bag out a car that some of us have brought and they have never driven!....works both ways.

I think you will find most dont think that the defenders are the bee's knee's if that was the case i would of thought they certainly wouldn't be posting up there problems and showing that the car isn't perfect.

I have to say this forum and landrover people have to be some of the most open minded people i have ever come accross....i'm affraid i cant say the same for some other brands...i'm sure more than one person here has taken a flaming for owning a landrover buy someone that owns a cruiser :)..we get bagged out enough, we dont need to be constantly bashed by our own. :) thats just my opinion anyway, my apologiose if it upsets anyone

and what is it "that certain something that you like" ?....just curious!

[JohnE]

Interesting question, goes back to when i was 16 and in the cadets and bought a map of NSW ( which i still have its in the disco) at the time i wrote on it, 'Landrover map' took a while till I got one then two then more.
Maybe I like the unique boxy look!
over the weekend where i was near Keepit Dam, it rained on sunday night so much that the paddock we were camped in gone really wet, in the morning , there was a disco dragging a rangy out of the mud, a cruiser dragging an F250 out of the mud, a navarra, dragging a hilux out, and i dragged out an astra, a trailer, and a mazda.
no one made any comments about any 4wd's being better than the other.

john

[dullbird]

yet when i first met my neighbour at a street christmas party he introduced himself and then proceeded to tell us what a heap of **** our two disco's were....this was before we had chance to introduce our selves back:D.

needless to say he does wonder up the street everytime we fit something new to the car to "have a look" :p

it does happen! its the way of the world...nikon verses canon,,,mac verses windows.
you will always get someone that is passionate about one thing more so than someone else...and some people express that passion by belittling the oposition.

and quite often with very little factual basis...I dont know alot about cruisers.
but what i do know is that we had one pull us up slippery rock at night as we had broken a rear diff and couldn't engage the transfer case (i.e we were a dead weight).

needless to say i was very impressed with the cars capability and thankful for the rescue. my jokey commet was not to say how good landrovers are, mealry just identifying with the bashing that i have gotten from cruiser owners.

But i still will always feel the confusion as to why, when people that own landrovers, go out of there way to rubish them, and come accross that they dislike them so much..and call them out right POS would want to own one!! that is what i cant understand......if i hated them and the way the company did things that much i personally wouldn't buy one out of principal.

thats why i asked you what it is you liked about them......as in your post it appeared you liked nothing about them what so ever. :D

[JohnE]

Very good,
let me qualify the POS comment, thats a comparison I have made to the others that I and friends have owned or still own, with these things most owners spend more time under or over them fixing something that on the others is not usually a problem.
Your post comment says it all, Our landrover doesn;t leak it just marks its territory"
i get that all the time from people I know and meet, ' leaking landrovers' , at the end of the day its my choice for the vehicle I drive.
In the family at the moment we have 2 rovers 2 toyotas and a holden. which receives the most mechanical attention, the disco!!.

john

[dullbird]

john i hope you realise that i'm not actually arguing this, i know landrovers leak thats why i have that signature! i know they brake down, as does everyone else, we know they have crap dealer network....we all know parts can be expensive.

We all know they have SMALL engines.....but this is my point we all know this so if it bothers you enough to crap on about it all the time why did you (not you inparticular by the way:) ) buy one in the first place.

this is not all directed at you john so please dont take offence i only used your POS as an example amongst others. :)

i just find it hard to understand.....there are a number of people on this forum, that aren't willing to except change, but they bang on why they are not willing to except change hence making those that have embraced the change feel subdued, and tired of trying to defend there choice.

I understand people are going to have an opinion, hey both me and you are voicing ours right now.....but sometimes there is an opinion and theres an OPINION:wasntme::eek::p......


lets just all have a cyber hug i reckon:D.......and get some of this landrover man love out in the open:twisted:

[digger]

if all you children dont play nice I'm gonna send you back inside!

[Slunnie]

if all you children dont play nice I'm gonna send you back inside!
... and you wont be able to work on the LandRover for the rest of the day. :D

[rmp]

Some points.

1. The TDV6 shouldn't be in the Defender. The Puma engine is designed for slogging all day long with heavy loads on anything resembling diesel fuel, year in year out, remember it's the Transit engine which tradies rely on. That's why it only puts out 90kw from 2.4l. Still, Puma-powered Defenders move along quite nicely indeed thank you. First time I drove one I said it was a "Defender Sport". If you feel you want more power I suggest a driving course is could be in order.

The TDV6 is designed for higher power, smoother performance; 140kw from 2.7l. A different cc/kw ratio you'll notice. Given you can't have everything I'd be willing to bet some tradeoffs have been made, and the Puma would be chugging away years after the TDV6 dies in an expensive way. I know for sure it's more sensitive to fuel quality, and I think the servicing/parts costs would be an interesting comparison.

If you want to scoot around at high speed buy an RRS. If you want to lug heavy loads, economically, all day long, anywhere, buy a Defender. If you're not sure, buy a D3.

But either way, don't complain about one not being the other.


2. Please understand Land Rover is now a premium brand. They are not, repeat not, interested in taking on Toyota in the ute/basic market. So get over it. Yes, they should have been, lots of bad decisions over the years, agree with all of that, lost potential etc etc, but that's unfortunate history. As someone said, LR is as interested in the non-premium market as Jaguar, by an amazing conincidece.

The Defender is an embarrassment to LR now. They can't ditch it, but it's expensive to redevelop it. It's not a big money maker. But it's a halo, an icon. Their hearts want to do something with it, but their heads make them focus on FL hybrid, RR replacement, D3 mid-life, V8 RRS, LRX etc first and the project seems to slip and slip.


IMHO.

[EchiDna]

well I love sitting in my 110 with the window wound down, elbow on the sill, driving wherever I want to at whatever speed I'm comfortable with and not in the least envious of the blokes in their aircon comfort, luxo-barge family wagons (no matter if they are disco's, cruisers, patrols or whatever). It just works for me. The fact that it has a 3.9 litre aussie factory spec motor with a hair dryer on the side is almost unimportant, but I know it will be running and plugging away for the next 30-40 years no matter if I ran it on peanut oil, olive oil, diesel or whatever is on the market by then!

[Bigbjorn]

Some points.




2. Please understand Land Rover is now a premium brand. They are not, repeat not, interested in taking on Toyota in the ute/basic market. So get over it. Yes, they should have been, lots of bad decisions over the years, agree with all of that, lost potential etc etc, but that's unfortunate history. As someone said, LR is as interested in the non-premium market as Jaguar, by an amazing conincidece.




IMHO.

And history will record that failure to have a volume seller contributed to the demise of both brands. Every car maker now has "prestige" lines chasing a small percentage of the market. Jaguar has struggled for at least twenty years now. It is very hard to get a decent dealer if you can't offer him a volume seller to pay the bills. Been there.

[isuzurover]

I think there are some important issues here re LR in the OZ market.

Theiss imported cruisers to OZ, which had a big(ish) 6 and originally a 3 speed which wasn't ideal.

The cruiser engines and boxes were rapidly improved, the nissan followed soon after with an even larger engine, and Land Rover's market share started to rapidly decline. The rear axle strength in 109" IIA's didn't help at all.

If you were back in the early 70's, when fuel was cheap, and had the option of a 4L 6cyl petrol or diesel in the competition, and a 2.3L petrol and diesel in a landie, then...

You only have to look at how many landies of that vintage were fitted with holden (or similar) engines. I think the 2.25 is a great little engine, but it doesn't cut it for the brigade that wants to go to the back paddock and do "circle work"

The balance was FINALLY redressed in the early 80's by the V8 and the 4BD1T, but it was really too late by then, and the rapidly worsening exchange rate meant that the defender was almost killed off completely in OZ (and AFAIK wasn't offered for sale in 1991).

IMHO, if a 3-5 Litre petrol and diesel had been introduced in the early 60's, along with a sufficiently strong rear axle and gearbox, then landies would be as popular as toyotas in Australia today.

(edit - but who wants to be one of the sheeple driving a Nissota???)

[rmp]

And history will record that failure to have a volume seller contributed to the demise of both brands. Every car maker now has "prestige" lines chasing a small percentage of the market. Jaguar has struggled for at least twenty years now. It is very hard to get a decent dealer if you can't offer him a volume seller to pay the bills. Been there.

True. I'm not agreeing with their direction, I'm reporting it.

However, premium doesn't necessarily mean low volume. BMW, for example.

[PAT303]

Very good,
let me qualify the POS comment, thats a comparison I have made to the others that I and friends have owned or still own, with these things most owners spend more time under or over them fixing something that on the others is not usually a problem.
Your post comment says it all, Our landrover doesn;t leak it just marks its territory"
i get that all the time from people I know and meet, ' leaking landrovers' , at the end of the day its my choice for the vehicle I drive.
In the family at the moment we have 2 rovers 2 toyotas and a holden. which receives the most mechanical attention, the disco!!.

john

Pick up a 4wd mag and look at all the conversion kits for jap vehicles.When was the last time you saw a factory stock cruiser working?.I would like to see a test were a not made for oz defender and all the rest drive through the outback for 20,000k's factory stock and see who survives.I'm with dullbird,I got bagged out the other day by a tojo owner even though his ''unbreakable'' Hilux has had a new diff and clutch fitted and it was bought brand new 7 months ago.Tojo's have a long list of expensive things that go wrong,LR's have a long list of cheap oil leaks. Pat

[EchiDna]

.....However, premium doesn't necessarily mean low volume. BMW, for example.

yeah but BMW (Mercedes, Audi too!) have a home market with high enough volume sales where they are not "premium" brands. it is their ability to create a series of cars such as the 520, 525, 530, 535, M5 kind of thing that makes them able to make $$$ on everything from generic travelling salesman's transport to premium trackday specials on the same basic platform. This also leaves out the specials made by companies like AC Schnitzer for BMW and AMG for Mercedes.

If LR did that, the defender through to the RR would all be on the same chassis... (cool idea in a way!)

[isuzurover]

2. Please understand Land Rover is now a premium brand. They are not, repeat not, interested in taking on Toyota in the ute/basic market. So get over it. Yes, they should have been, lots of bad decisions over the years, agree with all of that, lost potential etc etc, but that's unfortunate history. As someone said, LR is as interested in the non-premium market as Jaguar, by an amazing conincidece.

This may change with Tata at the reins.

Funny you should mention BMW and Merc. Merc make the G-wagen, the Unimog, etc... According to my info, the reason Merc won the contract to supply the next generation of Australian army vehicles is that 1 manufacturer could supply every size of vehicle, and they would use common filters and lubricants.

A company like Tata can do that, since they make large AWD trucks as well, and LR still has quite a good reputation as a military vehicle. Military contracts are worth good money.

[PAT303]

There is no easy answer.I would like to see defenders everywhere but then they would be just another vehicle. Pat

[TimNZ]

interesting thread, some very valid points, but why is it that when anyone on here bags a landrover they almost always become a toyota lover. Even as a joke it is starting to wear thin.

I have had 4 toyotas and a mitsubishi and am a toyota lover !!!! I never spent the same amount of time under them as I have with the landrover.

Landrovers aren;t the ducks guts,they are the ultimate POS, when compared to a landcruiser.
they are a vehicle that certain people take a fancy to and I am one of them,
not because they are technologically brilliant
not because they are the best off road vehicle that can be found,
not because the power to weight is fantastic,
not because the ride is brilliant
its because they have a certain something that I like.Thats why I have them and enjoy working on them
Each unto their own.

Some of you make out the land rover is the bee knees, we all know its not, thats why there are so many headings on here on how to fix the bloody things when something leaks, breaks, or generally doesn;t work.

And on other marques, someone could correct me if i am wrong, but don;t some of the larger overseas vehicle manufacturers do their prototype testing in the outback.
And landrover do theirs in the factory backyard to duplicate world conditions!!




john

Get out of my laptop!

Tim

[dmdigital]

interesting thread, some very valid points, but why is it that when anyone on here bags a landrover they almost always become a toyota lover. Even as a joke it is starting to wear thin.

I have had 4 toyotas and a mitsubishi and am a toyota lover !!!! I never spent the same amount of time under them as I have with the landrover.

Landrovers aren;t the ducks guts,they are the ultimate POS, when compared to a landcruiser.
they are a vehicle that certain people take a fancy to and I am one of them,
not because they are technologically brilliant
not because they are the best off road vehicle that can be found,
not because the power to weight is fantastic,
not because the ride is brilliant
its because they have a certain something that I like.Thats why I have them and enjoy working on them
Each unto their own.

Some of you make out the land rover is the bee knees, we all know its not, thats why there are so many headings on here on how to fix the bloody things when something leaks, breaks, or generally doesn;t work.

And on other marques, someone could correct me if i am wrong, but don;t some of the larger overseas vehicle manufacturers do their prototype testing in the outback.
And landrover do theirs in the factory backyard to duplicate world conditions!!




john
John,
I think reading between the lines of your post I probably agree. What I'd add though is the following.
Land Rover owners tend not to be as one eyed about their cars, they recognise the failings. Toyota owners in particular tend to be extremely tunnel vision in this respect.
Any 4WD when used in harsh conditions needs a lot more up keep. In my experience Toyota's are often the most expensive for parts if you have to go genuine OEM.
Forums are a great place to read about everyone's problems more often than their lack of them.
I think we are seeing Toyota relying on its reputation a lot for the last few years. The new Hilux and LC70's build quality (well those at work) is very poor in comparison to their predecessors. And as for their price:eek: well that's one way of ensuring a good second hand market for the older model.

[Slunnie]

Some points.

1. The TDV6 shouldn't be in the Defender. The Puma engine is designed for slogging all day long with heavy loads on anything resembling diesel fuel, year in year out, remember it's the Transit engine which tradies rely on. That's why it only puts out 90kw from 2.4l. Still, Puma-powered Defenders move along quite nicely indeed thank you. First time I drove one I said it was a "Defender Sport". If you feel you want more power I suggest a driving course is could be in order.

The TDV6 is designed for higher power, smoother performance; 140kw from 2.7l. A different cc/kw ratio you'll notice. Given you can't have everything I'd be willing to bet some tradeoffs have been made, and the Puma would be chugging away years after the TDV6 dies in an expensive way. I know for sure it's more sensitive to fuel quality, and I think the servicing/parts costs would be an interesting comparison.

If you want to scoot around at high speed buy an RRS. If you want to lug heavy loads, economically, all day long, anywhere, buy a Defender. If you're not sure, buy a D3.

But either way, don't complain about one not being the other.


2. Please understand Land Rover is now a premium brand. They are not, repeat not, interested in taking on Toyota in the ute/basic market. So get over it. Yes, they should have been, lots of bad decisions over the years, agree with all of that, lost potential etc etc, but that's unfortunate history. As someone said, LR is as interested in the non-premium market as Jaguar, by an amazing conincidece.

The Defender is an embarrassment to LR now. They can't ditch it, but it's expensive to redevelop it. It's not a big money maker. But it's a halo, an icon. Their hearts want to do something with it, but their heads make them focus on FL hybrid, RR replacement, D3 mid-life, V8 RRS, LRX etc first and the project seems to slip and slip.


IMHO.
This is exactly the same thinking IMHO as LandRovers. Its also the reason why sales are so deficient. If they could triple their sales in Aus then they would - but they're too arrogent to be led by the market. Durability and power, Power and economy, reliability and cost, and utility and comfort are not mutually exclusive. But those that get it right seem to prosper, and those that don't either fail or become "niche" vehicles. Maintaining an Icon doesn't pay the bills, so it'll be interesting to see what the next Defender is like, which I thought that I'd heard will be based on the D3 style of platform, and hopefully with the TDV8 with SRS and all of the other good gear.

[Greylandy]

This is exactly the same thinking IMHO as LandRovers. Its also the reason why sales are so deficient. If they could triple their sales in Aus then they would - but they're too arrogent to be led by the market. Durability and power, Power and economy, reliability and cost, and utility and comfort are not mutually exclusive. But those that get it right seem to prosper, and those that don't either fail or become "niche" vehicles. Maintaining an Icon doesn't pay the bills, so it'll be interesting to see what the next Defender is like, which I thought that I'd heard will be based on the D3 style of platform, and hopefully with the TDV8 with SRS and all of the other good gear.

Land Rover will argue their move into the luxury market has paid dividend as they are profitable for the first time in many years. You can also argue the reason for their arrogance and the market they have chosen to pursue is exactly the reason why many of us drive a Land Rover. If I wanted another reliable Jap machine of which there are thousands on the road and inspires thoughts of watching the paint dry .. I would happily purchase a Toyota, Nissan or Mitsubishi .. who all seem rather similar in their dullness.

I have around 15 - 20 mates who all own a 4WD. Although this is not a exhaustive study by any means - I find the Jap owners are all intellectual guys, with good incomes and look for a reliable, comfortable 4x4 which doesn't require too much maintenance or tinkering. At the opposite of that, every LR mate or LR owner I have met are DIY types who like to tinker with their vehicles. They have a wide background from highly qualified professionals to tradies. I make the conclusion that one group is very much a "car enthusiast" where as the other group are "car users". There are always exceptions to the rule but you get my point.

Take the Land Rover for what it is .. in many ways if they became a mass produced product I strongly believe that they would lose their appeal.

[Slunnie]

Land Rover will argue their move into the luxury market has paid dividend as they are profitable for the first time in many years. You can also argue the reason for their arrogance and the market they have chosen to pursue is exactly the reason why many of us drive a Land Rover. If I wanted another reliable Jap machine of which there are thousands on the road and inspires thoughts of watching the paint dry .. I would happily purchase a Toyota, Nissan or Mitsubishi .. who all seem rather similar in their dullness.

I have around 15 - 20 mates who all own a 4WD. Although this is not a exhaustive study by any means - I find the Jap owners are all intellectual guys, with good incomes and look for a reliable, comfortable 4x4 which doesn't require too much maintenance or tinkering. At the opposite of that, every LR mate or LR owner I have met are DIY types who like to tinker with their vehicles. They have a wide background from highly qualified professionals to tradies. I make the conclusion that one group is very much a "car enthusiast" where as the other group are "car users". There are always exceptions to the rule but you get my point.

Take the Land Rover for what it is .. in many ways if they became a mass produced product I strongly believe that they would lose their appeal.
That may change with the next Defender.....

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Land Rover will argue their move into the luxury market has paid dividend as they are profitable for the first time in many years. You can also argue the reason for their arrogance and the market they have chosen to pursue is exactly the reason why many of us drive a Land Rover. If I wanted another reliable Jap machine of which there are thousands on the road and inspires thoughts of watching the paint dry .. I would happily purchase a Toyota, Nissan or Mitsubishi .. who all seem rather similar in their dullness.

I have around 15 - 20 mates who all own a 4WD. Although this is not a exhaustive study by any means - I find the Jap owners are all intellectual guys, with good incomes and look for a reliable, comfortable 4x4 which doesn't require too much maintenance or tinkering. At the opposite of that, every LR mate or LR owner I have met are DIY types who like to tinker with their vehicles. They have a wide background from highly qualified professionals to tradies. I make the conclusion that one group is very much a "car enthusiast" where as the other group are "car users". There are always exceptions to the rule but you get my point.

Take the Land Rover for what it is .. in many ways if they became a mass produced product I strongly believe that they would lose their appeal.

good call!