101 LPG

[101 Ron]

As some of you guys know the LPG system I originally fitted to my 101 was different with the main aim for the set up to be non damaging to the vehicle in that nothing is cut out or changed in a way that permanently left holes in the body work etc.
The gas tank fit up worked out perfectly behind the back axle with high ground clearance and you only can see the tank if you go looking for it.
Only a few small holes through the chassis was necessary for the tank sub frame attachment.
I didn't want to chop the air intakes for the normal aftermarket universal gas mixers or donuts which also so cause power loss on petrol and gas through venturi restrictions.
So I fitted a highly unusual century underthrottle setup without spacer plates
but feeding the gas in through the manifold balance ports.
It worked even being used with constant depression carbies and with no losses through restrictions.
I have run thousands of Ks with this set up.
It did have problems due to the location of the balance port openings in the manifold at a bend.
One was poor idle smoothness due to uneven mixture distribution.
Poor top end power due to the mixture leaning off as air flow increased.
Playing with the manifold balance port openings in the manifold I could solve one of either of the above problems , but not both.
The idea worked very well , just the manifold design of the 3.5 litre motor wasnt good for the set up.
In another thread someone offered donut spacers with internal venturi for sale which are specially made for the rover V8.
I didn't know these existed for this motor.
100_0356101LPGmixer.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=100_0356101LPGmixer.jpg)
I have been very lucky in finding a set of similar items for my self.
They are 20mm thick and will just barely bolt onto the 101 landrover using the original air inlet ducting after a bit of playing around with things.
My two stage Century H gas converter has now been modified to a three stage one to suit the new set up.
Took the 101 for a run today with the different set up for the first time.
Idle good and top end power better.
But a slight power loss is noticed on petrol now as is less engine breathing overall.
1/4 throttle response on gas is worse than before.
The battle for the perfect 101 landy gas system goes on.
A Larger Impco mixer would work very well except it is impossible to fit one without chopping the vehicle around.
I will report if I find any advantage with gas burn over my old set up.

[101 Ron]

Photos of the current set up.
The spacer/ ventri plates fitted with longer carby bolts and studs.
The original air cleaner rubber pipes were used,but took much fiddling to refit to the slightly wider air in take alloy castings.
101lpgmixer051.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101lpgmixer051.jpg)
On the next photo you can see the metal plug in the middle of the inlet manifold which was used to deliver the LPGas in my previous set up.
101lpgmixer052.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101lpgmixer052.jpg)
The next two photos show the simple brass fittings used to joint the 1/2 inch spacer vapour hose together to the 3/4 vapour hose from the gas convertor.
There is also a small 1/4 inch vapour line going into the main fitting for idle mixture supply as the century gas convertor is now a converted three stage one.
101lpgmixer054.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101lpgmixer054.jpg)
101lpgmixer053.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101lpgmixer053.jpg)
This next photo shows the brass needle valve now used for idle mixture control.
Behind it is a soleniod lockoff wired to the main gas lock off.
101lpgmixer055.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101lpgmixer055.jpg)
The next photos are the previous system delivering gas vapour through the manifold balance port using a century under throttle gas flow control valve with a micro adjuster linkage from the LHS carby.

[rovercare]

Mmmm, that winch motor looks familiar.......its on my 8274:D

[101 Ron]

Image of clear view simple set upv into manifold - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101stuff2006042.jpg)
Image of under throttle 5/8 unf balance manifold port - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101stuff2006040.jpg)
The next photo shows the very successful gas tank mounting which is mounted between the chassis rails using a sub frame that required the minimum drilling of the chassis.
The tank being rear mounted allows the fuel filler fitting to be fitted on the back chassis to with a very short pipe to allow quick filling.
The tank ground clearance is very high with next to no chance of the tank being hit by rocks.
Image of d62 lpg tank between chassis - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101stuff2006020.jpg)

Image of d62 lpg tank between chassis - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=101stuff2006021.jpg)
2007110.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=2007110.jpg)
Currently I am having a small problem with the donut spacers with a flat spot just off idle as the gas converter I am using doesn't have the big second stage diaphragm like the Italian gas converters which are designed for the Donuts/ venturi systems.
What the current system does do is supply plenty of gas for top end power which most Italian converters lack in this application.
The donut /venturi does rob some top end power on both gas and petrol due to the extra introduced restriction.
My first system was good but needed a Beam 120a gas converter with adjustable primary stage and a manifold off redesign where the gas vapour entered the main part of the manifold...........I am not prepared to do this as it was going to stop me driving my toy for too long.
My future requirement is to find a Italian three stage gas converter which can supply the goods at the right price or try a Beam 120a from work when I trip over one next and find time to fit it.

[101 Ron]

Just been doing some home work on gas tank locations and fitting on a 101.
I am happy with my between the chassis rails set up and I am not about to change it.
This is for general reference.


OPTION 1
My between chassis rail location just ahead of rear diff.
Model D62 Tank dia 432mm 63 litre capacity
Exhaust relocation, rear blackout light removal.....very tight fit and special tank sub frame fabricated.



OPTION 2
Replace petrol tank RHS with LPG tank.
Available length slightly over 1000mm.
Available diameter 300mmm ( slightly reduced under tank clearance from petrol tank )
ModelB95 Capacity 59 litres. ( dia 330mm)
( petrol tank relocated to rear of vehicle above diff and exhaust relocation )
( Special LPG tank support brackets would need to be fabricated )
(Another tank could be fitted to LHS if no winch is fitted)

OPTION 3
LPG tank in cargo area on left or right side just behind passenger area and in front of rear wheel guards.
Available length 1100mm Adviable dia 400mm
Model D100 capacity 102 litres
Tank dia 432mm( being inside the vehicle a sub compartment and vent hosing ETC would have to be installed with large hole cut in body work)
standard floor tank brackets could be used.
(two tanks could be fitted one per side.)



Option three loses much cargo area and easy side access to cargo area is lost, but is the simplest install and the one 90% of LPG fitters would take.


To be realistic the 101 really needs 100litres or more of gas capacity.
Each option has its advantages and disadvantages.
Even larger tanks could be fitted above the rear mud guards in the cargo area or on the floor length ways in the cargo area, but the lost of cargo room and the tank being in sight and in the way would be too much of a compromise for most people.

I find sup prising Option 2 has so little capacity.
It should be noted option 2 can be fitted also with the 102 litre tank (D100)
but off road clearance and looks would be a problem ( original petrol tank is about 280mm deep verses.432mm for the D100 and much harder fitting and fabrication of support brackets.
Note standard petrol tank capacity of a 101 is 110 litres

[101 Ron]

Lpg mixer options
Gas vapour injection with electronic control and oxygen sensor in exhaust to trim fuel mixture........good set up and used over seas in 101s alot. but is the most expensive option , but is becoming more popular with older vehicles as costs improve and the older hands like myself fading out of the sean and the younger LPG fitters who know nothing else take over.
Three stage convertors used and vapour mixture trimmer.



Impco LPG mixers..........very good systems and can be very efficient if the right mixer is installed, but they take up alot of room in a 101 and are not easily fitted due to the twin carby layout with forward control.
The mixer would have to be fitted between the air filter and the Y branch of the air inlet system and I would recommend a CA 260 and above.
CA 150 would be too small and kill power.
I would try a CA460 as it has very good flow and a small size.(CA300 takes up too much room)
The mixer would have to be located down beside the gearbox with piping placed to avoid chopping of panels.
Two stage convertors are needed with this system
A Impco mixer works the same as a CD Stromberg carby ,only it uses LP gas


Donuts..... these are little venturis which give a vacuum signal to the gas convertor about engine fuel needs.
General purpose donuts can be fitted to the alloy air horns just before the carbies .
A better set up is to use a engine specific donut made for a 3.5 litre Range Rover motor and with a bit of care can be fitted on to the 101 with little modification.
A three stage gas convertor is used and usually a Italian type and ensure the one you use has enough capacity for a heavy drinking V8 as most Italian convertors are designed for 4 cylinder engines and may kill top end power.
Donuts get the job done but are the least efficent system and the extra venturi of the donut will very slightly affect running on petrol too.
The best gas convertor location is on the right side of the engine bay under , behind and below the drivers seat.
Both heater pipes needed are at this location too.
Note the steel heater water pipes are of a unusual size.

[101RRS]

Hi Ron,

So what system do I have? Since it was installed in 1992 I assume it is an inefficent one. There is also some bit that lives under the passenger seat but I have not actually taken the covers off to have a look at it.


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/Convoy003.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/Convoy007.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/gazzz21/Convoy006.jpg

Garry

[101 Ron]

Hi Garry.
I have seen these pics before.
You have a Impco system and there is nothing wrong with that.
What I do need is the gas mixer model number which is cast into the body of it.
It looks like a CA150 which will give good running , but will kill top end power a bit.
The item under the drivers seat area will be a gas converter unit and will most likely to be a impco item too.
A photo or any markings of it would be helpful.
Misguided 11 which I was quickly able to have a look at had a impco mixer on it and was placed towards the top of the gearbox towards the drivers side and done in a way that no chopping of the gearbox floor plate was done.
Misguided 11 to was running a Italian convertor placed near the ignition coil under the LHS seat.
The tank you have will be out of date and may or may not be worth while to get retested with new valves etc fitted.
If you are happy with the location of the tank where it is a ,replacement with a bigger item is straight forward.
A replacement tank the last time I checked is about 600 dollars........if you can get one !
Check to see if anyone will retest the old tank first as it will save dollars.
You will need to find a LP Gas compliance plate too.
If one is not fitted or it is more than 10 years old a new plate will need to be fitted,
A out of date gas system should be disconnected and emptied ,or completely removed for normal petrol rego.as when you go over the pits for the ACT rego it may cause problems and the fact your gas may have been fitted in QLD a long time ago.
Even if the system is not used the residual gas in the tank in a fire is considered a problem as is untested safety valves in the system.

[101RRS]

Thanks Ron,

I will get some extra pics and some numbers when I can.

Yep the tank is well out of date as is the LPG compliance plate (both certified 1992). I would like to put a bigger tank in and ideally move to the drivers side so that I can fill with LPG and petrol on the same side - however for the moment I will just get the system certified - either with a new tank or with the old one. I have made some enquiries and no one likes the Rheem tank so I guess they developed a bad reputation over the years.

The system runs well on LPG so I am assuming if I get the bits that require certification either tested or replaced as required the other components will do as they are for the moment.

Cheers

Garry

[101 Ron]

Rheem tanks as far as I know haven't been used for years.
I am not certain if the fittings on it are standard types.
Apa tanks are the ones used now and Aussie made.
I know Manchester are still doing smaller bottles and forklift tanks.....but bigger automotive items I don't know.
The LP gas industry is still flat out trying to keep up with demand and tank supply is slow.
I would tend to leave the location of your tank where it is as moving it to the other side would mean more chopping of the vehicle.
It would be easier just to move the filler valve to another part of the vehicle......to the rear ?
I have found a short hose running from the ACME filler fitting to the tank gives a much shorter tank filling time at the servo.
It may be better to leave the tank and filler positioning well alone.
I find rear filler valve positioning very good as it allows filling from a bowser from either side of the vehicle and that sometimes save queues at the servo.
IMHO it would be better to tidy up the original set up with a new tank and much later you could try a slightly bigger mixer if you feel there is a top end power loss on the LP Gas compared to petrol.
If the set up is good the only difference between the two fuels should be a loss of torque and that usually only shows up under hard towing etc
In your set up inside the vehicles cargo/ passenger area you must run a large vent hose from the sub compartment of the tank to the out side of the vehicle so any leaks are vented to the outside of the vehicle and for fire venting reasons.
The cut away gearbox floor plate may be restored to original at a later date by positioning the mixer better or going to the compact donut system.
The impco systems can give a slight increase in petrol performance by using a mechanical or vacuum lift on the mixer diaphram.
Your mixer doesnt appear to have this........it is not the end of the world , just another later on job.

[101 Ron]

Garry ,the information I have is the Rheem tanks take standard valves so testing and replacing is easy.
There is two major problems and is due to the systems age.
Current automotive LPG tanks must be fitted with a AFL and a gas lockoff on the tank itself.
A AFL is a automatic fill limiter (shuts off the gas at 80% fill and saves the use of the ullage valve when filling)
On all systems now a small electric fuel shut off valve is fitted on the tank in case the gas line from the tank to the motor is damaged.
The power for the valve is supplied from a vacuum switch or black box which also supplies power to another gas lockoff on the gas convertor.
Your tank may or may not have the AFL valve.
It will not have the extra lock off valve and therefore would need to be up graded.
If this is all worthwhile against the price of a new tank I do not know.

[cooee]

hi ron:D
i think puting tanks on driver side and passenger is best option i put 2 90 ltr tanks fab cover to go over then made false floor which is easy to take out and still use top sides if you want
i did think about tanks between wheel arches and putting false floor right thru
i done few trips now and very happy the way it works :)still plenty of room
cheers cooee

[101 Ron]

I had a 89 litre water cap LP gas tank at home and though I would see how it looks in the 101
for reference purposes.
It is a C and J brand and true capacity is a little bit over 80 litres.
There is a photo of the tank (option 3) in the back cargo area and another with the LPG tank just under the petrol tank to give a idea of how it would look and fit replacing the petrol tank........this tank looks to be a perfect fit.
( option 2)



018-4.jpg picture by 101Ron - Photobucket (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=018-4.jpg)

019-2.jpg picture by 101Ron - Photobucket (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=019-2.jpg)
020-3.jpg picture by 101Ron - Photobucket (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=020-3.jpg)
021-3.jpg picture by 101Ron - Photobucket (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=021-3.jpg)
022-2.jpg picture by 101Ron - Photobucket (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/101Ron/?action=view&current=022-2.jpg)

[DODGE]

Gday ron

great reference pics.looks like it would fit on the side very nicely.

cheers gaz:D

[101RRS]

Garry ,the information I have is the Rheem tanks take standard valves so testing and replacing is easy.
There is two major problems and is due to the systems age.
Current automotive LPG tanks must be fitted with a AFL and a gas lockoff on the tank itself.
A AFL is a automatic fill limiter (shuts off the gas at 80% fill and saves the use of the ullage valve when filling)
On all systems now a small electric fuel shut off valve is fitted on the tank in case the gas line from the tank to the motor is damaged.
The power for the valve is supplied from a vacuum switch or black box which also supplies power to another gas lockoff on the gas convertor.
Your tank may or may not have the AFL valve.
It will not have the extra lock off valve and therefore would need to be up graded.
If this is all worthwhile against the price of a new tank I do not know.

Given what you have said I am now wondering whether it will be easier to remove all evidence of my current LPG system and get the 101 registered as a petrol vehicle - then take it to Sydney and get a new LPG system fitted for about $2600 and then claim the rebate leaving me only about $600 out of pocket - probably less that what it will cost me to get my current tank certified and the extra mods you have suggested it needs fitted.

Garry

[101 Ron]

Why remove the lot.
Just remove the tank and every thing is sweet.
I tried for the LPGas rebate for my 101 when I fitted the system and came unstuck by 165 kg.
The rebate stops at a GVM of 3499 kg.
The 101 with its 1500 kg payload stuffs this up.
I showed the NSW RTA the landrover book for the 101 stateing a payload of one tonne and therefore well under 3499kg GVM.
All when well untill they found the plate on the left handside of the fan tunnel which on aussie 101s states a 1.5 tonne payload.
I was told I would have to get the thing engineered for less payload, ( If I wanted the rebate),reguardless of what the manufactures book said.
I fitted the gas myself so it wasnt a big deal for me in cost any how.
Gaz (dodge) shouldnt have the same problem as his vehicle came from england and should be plated for one tonne.
I would if trying for a LPG rebate remove the plate on the fan tunnel before the thing is fitted with gas and show the Landrover book 101 on inspection.

[101RRS]

Why remove the lot.
Just remove the tank and every thing is sweet.


Thanks Ron - I have been told by all of my local installers that if there is any evidence of a previously fitted system the rebate does not apply and they will not sign off on it.

I hadn't considered the weight issue - moving the plate and showing the book might be the go.

Thanks

Garry

[101 Ron]

I wasnt thinking of the rebate in removing the tank, just for geting it over the pits for rego.
You are right about the removing the lot for the rebate.

[101RRS]

Ron,

Armed with all the great information you have given me and a couple of photos of my setup I went down to my LPG installer, who is also an Authorised Roadworthy inspector.

Much to my surprise there will be no issue testing the old tank and gaining all the required certifications $150 - $250 depending on the valves.

As the system is an early 90s system when a fill limiter valve was not required I do not need to get one fitted. The mechanic is happy for me to remove the tank and put it back in after testing as long as I do not fill it and bring it in for the overall system certification required for rego.

So I will do this first and later when I have more experience with the system work out what modifications I want to make.

The information you put up allowed me to ask the right questions.

Thanks

Garry