on the replacement for the perenties

[Blknight.aus]

AUSTRALIA'S frontline warriors, the elite Special Air Service Regiment, will be trading up in November to a fleet of new gunbuggies as part of the army's $4.6 billion re-equipment contract - its biggest vehicle procurement.

Ending a 50-year relationship with Land Rover, the army will also sign off next month on a $314 million contract with Mercedes Benz for 1200 new G-Wagon light four-wheel-drive vehicles as its off-roader of choice.

Special Operations Command troops, the SASR and commandos can expect to be driving an altogether new vehicle, the British-made Supacat - named the Nary in Australia in honour of Warrant Officer David Nary, who died during a Middle East pre-deployment operation in 2005.

Eight Nary trial vehicles are onschedule for a handover to theSASR in November, Defence Materiel Organisation sources confirmed yesterday.

Special forces have been allocated 31 new Nary patrol vehicles, which will replace the SASR's fleet of ageing Long Range Patrol Vehicles.

While procurement of the light vehicles has proceeded smoothly, the same cannot be said for army's medium and heavy truck fleet - the backbone of its frontline operational logistics.

Worth about $1.6 billion, the tender to replace the army's ageing fleet of trucks and trailers is running more than 12 months behind schedule and has cost taxpayers $30 million. The tender has been refreshed and is now expected to start deliveries of 2500 up-armoured trucks in 2013. The army called for additional armour protection in response to the deadly toll from roadside bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Concerns about whether preferred tenderer BAE Systems could meet the new armouring requirement resulted in the Rudd Government ordering the entire truck contract to be refreshed.

The Australian understands BAE will now compete against four bidders, Daimler-Benz, MAN, Mack and Thales.

G-Wagon numbers have been cut to incorporate 190 additional Bushmasters that will fill the original requirement for a light armoured people-mover.

DMO's program manager for land systems, Brigadier David O'Brien, defended the decision to go back to tender, saying no risk was worth taking when it came to protecting the lives of soldiers.

"Industry knows if the risks go up, we (DMO) will do it again," he told The Australian.

"So, I would suggest industry learn from this as we (DMO and contractors) don't want to go down this road again."

With deployments in Afghanistan, Iraq, East Timor and Solomon Islands, the pressure is on to get the contract back on track as quickly as possible.

Many of the army's heavy and medium trucks - its Unimogs and Macks - are approaching 30 years of service, while some trailers pre-date the Vietnam War. It is expected that some of the decommissioned four-wheel-drive vehicles will be disposed of as army surplus.

But military motoring enthusiasts should not expect to see any G-Wagons coming on to the used market any time soon.

(Source: The Australian)

[Fusion]

Is there any pics of these new bangers the army is getting ?

[carjunkieanon]

1) Ending a 50-year relationship with Land Rover, .... replace the SASR's fleet of ageing Long Range Patrol Vehicles.


2) DMO's program manager for land systems, Brigadier David O'Brien, defended the decision to go back to tender, saying no risk was worth taking when it came to protecting the lives of soldiers.


3) It is expected that some of the decommissioned four-wheel-drive vehicles will be disposed of as army surplus.



1) Crying shame
2) Good
3) Good ? (Dave, would you buy one?)

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I would kill for one of the SAS buggies!! Imagine peak hour traffic with one of the slug pumps hanging over the top!!!! GONE!!!! :rocket::whistling:

[mark2]

It is expected that some of the decommissioned four-wheel-drive vehicles will be disposed of as army surplus.

But military motoring enthusiasts should not expect to see any G-Wagons coming on to the used market any time soon.

(Source: The Australian)

Is this a typo? did they mean to say 'Land Rovers'?

Will have to start saving anyway.

[Bigbjorn]

I would kill for one of the SAS buggies!! Imagine peak hour traffic with one of the slug pumps hanging over the top!!!! GONE!!!! :rocket::whistling:

What about one of those US forces Hummers with the 25mm chain gun? The ultimate road rage reprisal device.

[Blknight.aus]

3) Good ? (Dave, would you buy one?)


I assume thats a rhetorical question.....

[Blknight.aus]

Is there any pics of these new bangers the army is getting ?

something like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1392.jpg

the civvy version can be seen in britney spears video clip to "you want a piece of me"

[FenianEel]

I know the "GAY WAGEN" deal was sorted a long time ago, but...

Land Rover - Idiots! :wallbash::bangin:

WHo would've thought a few years ago, we'd ditch a Pommy ride for a German one. Lucky most of the WWII gents aren't here:D

Charles Upham V.C. & Bar, who passed away in 1994, never let a German owned vehicle on his property in NZ. He would smash it if it did. If people came to see him in a VW, Merc or whatever, they had to leave it at the gate and walk all the wy to the house.:D

Times change & that's probably a good thing.

[87County]

something like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1392.jpg

the civvy version can be seen in britney spears video clip to "you want a piece of me"


looks like they were running out of ideas on where to locate the gardening tools

[Fusion]

something like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1392.jpg

the civvy version can be seen in britney spears video clip to "you want a piece of me"

And people say that the defender is ugly ..... that thing has run into the ugly tree a few times :eek::D.

[FenianEel]

And people say that the defender is ugly ..... that thing has run into the ugly tree a few times :eek::D.

They're a good machine, but they look like a product of Defender that made love to an old Volvo. :p

[mark2]

They're a good machine, but they look like a product of Defender that made love to an old Volvo. :p

:D:D

I think they could grow on me - they dont look too bad.

[Shonky]

I have no beef with the G, but I agree with Feeny - WTF were Land Rover thinking!?!?!?!

They have had the light military market over their knee for over half a century and now they just can't be bothered?

I just don't get what thought process was behind the idea of:
"Hey lets not submit for military tenders anymore. I know that Landies have seen more military service than any other vehicle, and most armies swear by them but hey - the tender process is just so tedious and boring. I would much rather go to motor shows and **** on about the Range Rover Sport. It's okay - our flawless quality control and impeccable reputation for service will surely keep us in business with the civilian market..."

I am trying very hard to not violate the site rules here! I just want to explode in a barrage of four letter words!

ARGH! AAARGGGGHHHHH! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

*Shonky throws computer across room, then takes two bex and goes for a lie down.*

[FenianEel]

ROFLMAO!!

[LR V8]

wait until you see the 4x4 & 6x6 ute.... very....very... toyota looking :eek2:

:toilet:

[B92 8NW]

I'm wondering if MB is going to make G wagens available to the public through their commercial vehicle dealerships in Aus.

[carjunkieanon]

I assume thats a rhetorical question.....

Not entirely.

I'd love to have one, I assume they're well maintained. But, have heard that they get thrashed & only ever put up for sale after their working life has ended.

I'll guess you'd buy one (or have it fall of the back of a truck), but, as far as having a good vehicle goes (apart from the awesome image), would you buy one?

[Gromit68]

That doesn't add up.

The Army currently runs a fleet of approx 10,000 LRs.

We're only buying 1200 G-wagens.

Obviously it's a rolling replacement scheme. So when the first 1200 Rovers are auctioned off, the price could well be expected to be significantly higher per vehicle than the final 1000 cars at the end of the replacement period, as demand will have diminished.

Would I buy one? I'm saving already, but certainly not for one of the first batch to be released.

[PeterM]

There's not that many LRs in service Gromit. About 1500 I believe.

[Blknight.aus]

Not entirely.

I'd love to have one, I assume they're well maintained. But, have heard that they get thrashed & only ever put up for sale after their working life has ended.

I'll guess you'd buy one (or have it fall of the back of a truck), but, as far as having a good vehicle goes (apart from the awesome image), would you buy one?

lets see...

Isuzu engine
galv chassis
galv firewall
lt95 with taper conversion
8ha rear

ticks every box I need it to...

theres a reason they've been able to extend the life of type twice already and may be looking at a third and maybe a 4th.

Id buy almost any of them but there are 2 very rare ones that I really want but any of the RFSV's or SRV's or GS bed W/winch FFR 6x6's would do me.

on the reason why LR didnt tender for the replacement. The treatment they got from the ADF over the current range of landies was enough to encourage them to wipe their hands of it.

[CraigE]

LR must have been nuts not to have fought for the Aussie contract let alone the British contract. But we have come to expect that from the morons running LR over the last few years.
The Bushmaster however is a wicked truck. We were looking at one for a rapid bush fire deployment unit. But a bit too aggressive and under water capacity for what we want. Would be nice though. BIL also went to look at them for forestry in the SW of WA. SA are using 14 of them as fire vehicles I believe.
FireKing (http://www.adi-limited.com/site.asp?page=79)

[gdcd74]

Its a shame , that Land rovers wont be part of our military anynore. I remember trudging around the bush in the back of a perentie in my "cadet" years and later in my army reserve days. I have brain washed my kids into landy's and its a real dissapointment to think that not only will the Aust Government let them go but the new shape that will be released will be so different to the existing 110's etc it will be a legend that only we will remember. Sad , real sad but i suppose its progress.
John

[Davo]

The treatment they got from the ADF over the current range of landies was enough to encourage them to wipe their hands of it.


Pray tell? Was it the usual particularly stringent standards and last-minute changes and all the rest?

[Blknight.aus]

paraphrasing.

after ADF trialed the demo vehicles they decided they liked em, but not the price approved a list of things to change to make them cheaper and then after delivery complained about the fact that the vehicle is now not as capable as it was.

then its the usual warrenty clause wording stuff that happens everywhere.

coupled with the different owner of the landrover group and the potential changeover sale the trend was away from "sheds that work" to "go fast luxury yachts that look pretty and will hardly use the awsome capability"

[Davo]

So, yes, the usual rubbish.

And your last line pretty much sums it up.

[LR V8]

For those that get a copy, the latest Australian Defence Magazine (http://www.australiandefence.com.au/adm/) (ADM) has an article on Project Overlander - which includes the Land Rover replacement.

There's a couple of nice pics of the 4x4 & 6x6 GWagon utes doing the rounds at Monegetta proving grounds. Also a pic of the LRPV replacement.... although I suspect it's a company pic.

I'll grab a copy for Phoenix.

Cheers,

Pete

[Taz]

A few of the new supercat 400's have turned up in perth. The SASR guys are pretty happy with them so far - very quiet aparently and 650Nm @ 1500 rpm!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/10/228.jpg

more info here:
http://www.supacat.com/supacat_products_hmt400.htm (http://www.supacat.com/supacat_products_hmt400.htm)

[PAT303]

Can they fit in a helo?. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

ATM not on or under any skyblender that AUS has...

but it is airtransportable in both the 130 and the c17 (imagine that something that fits in with a newly purchased bit of kit)

[BBC]

ATM not on or under any skyblender that AUS has...

but it is airtransportable in both the 130 and the c17 (imagine that something that fits in with a newly purchased bit of kit)

You could undersling one under a CH47....IF.......it had some assistance.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/779.jpg

I could give you a quote on that if you'd like.

Our Mi26 can carry two inside.

[PAT303]

The reason I asked is because that is a big advantage as they can be dropped out in the boondocks quickly as aposed to driving them. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

maybe I should have said ADF as opposed to AUS....

they units are air droppable from both the 130 or the c17.

While it maybe within the slingable weight of the chook it hasnt yet been through the load development for doing so... Personally Since the poms have already done it for their gear I cant see why we dont just go like this do that.... and then hook the thing up.

But beurocrats have to justify their existance somehow.

[DeeJay]

I do wonder what combat situation these vehicles can be used when these sorts of weapons are in use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFh2yqe8NQg

[Blknight.aus]

that things a recon and assult vehicle.. It shouldnt be being driven where you would expect IED's

IT does make an effort tho as it does have (compared to the vehicles it is replacing) significant underbelly armour and a token v shape to the hull.


when I first saw one I just gave it... hey look a strip top FC101 with a v hull bolted up, cool.

[Barefoot Dave]

Narys need a sh** load of racks to carry enough supplies for a decent patrol duration. Plus for the additional protection. Needs a bullbar for legends to tie themselves to (Serious Respects!)!
The operators will be snaky about the size of the hole required to sufficiently lower the profile when laying up.
as for buying an LRPV, I would be very surprised if they weren't
A: maintained in the SASR orbat for LR patrols in env with low IED threat
B: handed over to Central SQN/ Pilbara/ Delta 51 for domestic use.
C: Sold OS to def clients as they are lusted after by many SF units.
In the extreme un-likelihood that they are auctioned, you had better have a few mates to chip in / or know someone to 'pre-bid' ; )).
More feasable, not to mention70% cheaper, to get a 6X6 GS Trayback/ cab- chassis and make the rear body work.
Don't believe the hype though, they are not the unstoppable beast they are made out to be. A 110 will eat them in broken/ close terrain. They are great load carriers and med weapons platforms.


Would I if the numbers came up?

Hell yeah!!!! For the history. For a usable vehicle though, I'm with the Knight:
1: RFSV (with F/R ARB lockers), what other country gives their soldiers a patrol vehicle with boat racks and power outlets for a fridge?!? Oh, and I would continue the rollcage to the chassis, NOT terminate on the tub, only to punch through in a rollover! (\rant)
2: SRV (with F/R ARB lockers), a rollcage with intergrated gun-ring is the epitome of walking quietly with a big stick ; ) and its a 4 seater
3. see 1
Cheers, Dave.

[Olive Drab]

maybe land rover will tender to the military again in the future. I'm wondering whether we will ever see a re-badged TATA as a land rover, I hope not.
it scares me to think maybe rover will go all luxury and we'll get the tata flogged off as the real 4wd. time will tell. how much cheaper is labour in India compared to the U.K.
Does anyone know what the Indian military currently use?

[rick130]

<snip>
Does anyone know what the Indian military currently use?

I thought I read somewhere that Tata was tendering with Land Rover for a new contract ?

[PAT303]

I think TATA is the defenders guardian angel.I think they will get Indian army contracts that will lead to huge numbers.What it does need is modernizing with airbags,modern assembly(not hand built) and an auto option. Pat

[Jojo]

You might well be aware that even Tom Sheppard swapped his Land Rover for a Mercedes G-Wagen.:(:(

[PAT303]

Tom who???. Pat

[Jojo]

Tom Sheppard (http://desertwinds.co.uk/expedition_guide_06.html)

...has written more books about off road and Land Rover driving than you and I will likely ever read.

[JDNSW]

I think TATA is the defenders guardian angel.I think they will get Indian army contracts that will lead to huge numbers.What it does need is modernizing with airbags,modern assembly(not hand built) and an auto option. Pat

I'm not sure that "need" is the word I would use.
Airbags are a requirement, for example in Australian mining - but Landrover Australia has shown decreasing interest in selling to this or any other utility market. As far as I can see, major redesign is necessary to install airbags, and it will probably make changes in body style or additions such as bullbars much more difficult and expensive, as well as necessarily changing dimensions and losing backward compatibility of parts and accessories.

Modern assembly without apparent change in design is quite possible - it was done, for example with the RRClassic. But whether the result could be called a Defender is another matter, as it would lose its ability to be repaired and modified without much equipment, and become just another four wheel drive.

An auto option would widen the market, and could have been done at any time since the introduction of the 110 without difficulty. I can only conclude it has not been done to avoid taking sales from the RRClassic and the Discovery.

I think that if the Defender survives changes such as you suggest are likely, but whether it remains a Defender in anything except name is another matter. It would become just another four wheel drive. So I don't think I would use the word "needs" - perhaps "likely to get".

John

[Ralph1Malph]

I have no beef with the G, but I agree with Feeny - WTF were Land Rover thinking!?!?!?!

They have had the light military market over their knee for over half a century and now they just can't be bothered?

I just don't get what thought process was behind the idea of:
"Hey lets not submit for military tenders anymore. I know that Landies have seen more military service than any other vehicle, and most armies swear by them but hey - the tender process is just so tedious and boring. I would much rather go to motor shows and **** on about the Range Rover Sport. It's okay - our flawless quality control and impeccable reputation for service will surely keep us in business with the civilian market..."

I am trying very hard to not violate the site rules here! I just want to explode in a barrage of four letter words!

ARGH! AAARGGGGHHHHH! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

*Shonky throws computer across room, then takes two bex and goes for a lie down.*


Mate,
It's not all as it seems I'm afraid.
So that I don't get a visit from the official secrets police I'll talk in riddles but you'll get the idea.....

In order to present a streamlined contracting and logistics pipeline, it is common to require that as a condition of tender response, all tender respondants submit bids for 2 or 3 of the categories. This ensures that you are dealing with a minimum number of companies throughout the life of the equipment. That is why consortiums are common, as they allow this.:o

I suspect (read between the lines here), that LR was unable to directly tender for anything other than the light category and was either unwilling or unable to enter into a consortium agreement for the other categories.:mad:

This in effect might have precluded them from tendering for any category.:(

Cheers

Ralph

[Blknight.aus]

I have it from "yeah on a good day it might be reliable" sources that due to the existing stock lines and the fact that the LR wasnt out of life of type at the time the offer was initially put forwards that landrover was offered the chance to tender for the light vehicles.

Not sure exactly how it was worked out but the bits of info that IVe been able to garner off the vines leads me to believe that LR went..

Gee thanks but no.

[Ralph1Malph]

I have it from "yeah on a good day it might be reliable" sources that due to the existing stock lines and the fact that the LR wasnt out of life of type at the time the offer was initially put forwards that landrover was offered the chance to tender for the light vehicles.

Not sure exactly how it was worked out but the bits of info that IVe been able to garner off the vines leads me to believe that LR went..

Gee thanks but no.

You are quite close to the truth actually, mate.
Should one, through freedom of information, obtain the specifications sent to industry, one may find that Defence was seeking some specification LR was unable or unwilling to provide...on their current product line .....perhaps it was Armour, or IED protection, or something like that.......Damn those secrecy police :twisted:


Ralph

[Blknight.aus]

LR can do Armour and IED protection.....

just not at the "for free as standard" price that the ADF Want....

the 6x6 LRPV has limited APers mine protection which as per all things landrover does it so well that I know of one LR hitting an AT mine and saving the crew. The vehicle was later repaired to a functional standard again.

[isuzubob]

Here are the first pics for the ADF's M-B Gwagens.
Note high-lift jack cut outs under front bumper.
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9007/mercedesbenzgwagon1031.jpg

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1530/mercedesbenzgwagon10462.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/mercedesbenzgwagon10462.jpg/)

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6937/mercedesbenzgwagon10662.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/mercedesbenzgwagon10662.jpg/)

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8779/mercedesbenzgwagon10562.jpg

I think the most obvious reason why LR didn't provide competion was because the tender specs called for diesel automatic. The fault lay with Ford - no diesel auto option available
for Transit ergo nothing available for LR to use.

Rob W

[Blknight.aus]

and they're in country..

[clubagreenie]

Just what every defence force needs, spare tyre covers, high mount indicators and are they black out lights to match?

[dmdigital]

What on earth are the boxes on the front guards behind the indicators?

[Sprint]

antenna mounts maybe?

[Blknight.aus]

for those interested (sorry bout the roughness of the write overs)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1572.jpg


Looks like the gardening tools go on the roof... should make camming up great fun along with all the extra glass and the higmount reflective indicators....

fitted with 2 generic AMU mounts for comms gear or all other stuff that mounts on the amu base pattern (EW gear/IFF/EMINT shield type stuff)

the rear lift points look better positioned than the landie ones but I cant see the front ones

and it looks like its made to be recovered with a front placed AUX electrical connector for hooking up the standard 12 pin nato socket.

Im pretty sure that it wont get issued out with a highlift and the winch fit up will be interesting to see.

OH its also not ADR compliant with the exhaust coming out where it does.

Whats the bet the cost of the BFG AT goes up from this point on.

[87County]

something like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1392.jpg

the civvy version can be seen in britney spears video clip to "you want a piece of me"

hmmm.........no flat sections on which to park a mug of tea at smoko :)

[dmdigital]

Thanks Dave.

One more question to someone: I'm assuming the spoked rims are steel and not alloy's:confused:


I like the way they've put the BFG A/T's with the white lettering to the inside.

[It'sNotWorthComplaining!]

for those interested (sorry bout the roughness of the write overs)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/02/1572.jpg


Looks like the gardening tools go on the roof... should make camming up great fun along with all the extra glass and the higmount reflective indicators....

fitted with 2 generic AMU mounts for comms gear or all other stuff that mounts on the amu base pattern (EW gear/IFF/EMINT shield type stuff)

the rear lift points look better positioned than the landie ones but I cant see the front ones

and it looks like its made to be recovered with a front placed AUX electrical connector for hooking up the standard 12 pin nato socket.

Im pretty sure that it wont get issued out with a highlift and the winch fit up will be interesting to see.

OH its also not ADR compliant with the exhaust coming out where it does.

Whats the bet the cost of the BFG AT goes up from this point on.

Notice the white lettering on the inside of the tyres, these put the pose factor the wrong way around, can't quite make out the brand Allterrain T/A???

[ramblingboy42]

the landrover as the miltary has known was airportable. they fitted exactly into the fuselage of the caribou. one landrover/trailer and troops were a perfect load for the caribou. with the demise of the caribou and introduction of new a/c that can carry a complete rifle company and still land in the same airfields its no wonder that a complete revamp of vehicles is happening.....its called progress and it was really necessary.

[moparrangie]

Do they come with a laptop, so that when one has electronic problems, one of the crew can fix it or do you have to call Merc for help. Help help we are getting our arses shot at here and the *^%$ing ecu says call you nearest dealer.. The Rovers are low tech, run on any old jungle jucie if they have to and could be patched up by most people in the field.

[warren9981]

I personally think the G-Wagen is a nice looking vehicle. Never had anything to do with them before so don't know anything about them, but still nice looking, especially with the cut and flared guards and the chunky tyres.

[Blknight.aus]

it looks like for the first 3 years all servicing and repair will be warrenty unless NFW/accident.

[Sleepy]

Will they run the BFG AT's as standard? I would have expected something a little more LT than AT?

[Blknight.aus]

you can have LT in AT...

LT designates Light truck construction and refers to the construction of the tyre.

AT designates All Terrain, MT Mud Terrain and HT highway tyre all of which referes to the tread pattern and shoulder layout.


I suspect that this tyre is specified as its wider in foot print than the steeltrek to deal with the extra base weight of the vehicle.

[Sleepy]

you can have LT in AT...

LT designates Light truck construction and refers to the construction of the tyre.

AT designates All Terrain, MT Mud Terrain and HT highway tyre all of which referes to the tread pattern and shoulder layout.


I suspect that this tyre is specified as its wider in foot print than the steeltrek to deal with the extra base weight of the vehicle.

Yeah, my query wasn't all that clear Dave but thanks. I was thinking more of your Steeltrek 7.50x16s rather than the poufy BFG's:wasntme:

(P.S. I like BFG's - had them on my first 110 - just didn't think they are tough enough for MIL standard. )

[isuzubob]

One more question to someone: I'm assuming the spoked rims are steel and not alloy's:confused:

Yes, they are alloys. The theory is that they are more frangible than steel under IED attack. Also seen here

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/landroverwmik.jpg/)

Rob W

[isuzubob]

It looks like this might be the replacement for the SAS LRPV. I thought they were going to get some armoured Pommy Bushmaster thing (Ocelot?) but have read that the smaller shape (and radar "footprint") of a Land Rover with no windscreen is still preferable in certain situations.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://img577.imageshack.us/i/mb6x6softtop.jpg/)

More info here:
http://australiangelandewagenownersassociation.yuku.com/topic/882/WOW

[ugu80]

Yes, they are alloys. The theory is that they are more frangible than steel under IED attack. Also seen here

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3424/landroverwmik.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/landroverwmik.jpg/)

Rob W

I would have thought being more frangible to be an undesireable quality. Why would you want even more metal flying around in an explosion?

[KarlB]

I would have thought being more frangible to be an undesireable quality. Why would you want even more metal flying around in an explosion?
I would have thought in the break-up into smaller pieces, the frangible metal "absorbs" more energy thus limiting the extent of the explosive force. Another consideration would have been what is the most destructive: many small pieces of metal with relatively lower potential energy; or fewer large pieces with higher potential energy?

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[rick130]

I would have thought being more frangible to be an undesireable quality. Why would you want even more metal flying around in an explosion?


I would have thought in the break-up into smaller pieces, the frangible metal "absorbs" more energy thus limiting the extent of the explosive force. Another consideration would have been what is the most destructive: many small pieces of metal with relatively lower potential energy; or fewer large pieces with higher potential energy?

Cheers
KarlB
:)

The reason is something along the lines of what Karl has said.

All the UK Wolfs in Afghanistan have been fitted with aluminium alloy wheels as they are far less dangerous to the the driver/passengers when hitting an IED or mine compared to steel wheels which become shrapnel and kill.

This happened pretty quickly after a major inquiry into deaths from IED's in the Landy's.

[lambrover]

my ASM (boss) told me the G-wagon is not going over seas, so the rover will still be used as the deployed vehicle. So the SASR vehicles will still be playing in the sand pit, can be fixed with wire and leatherman :p. To clear somthing up too, we currently have to many rovers, and wont be replacing all the rovers with G-wagons.

Some one said will they come with computors so the operators can fix them, NO BLOODY WAY do you want operators with computors, you will have experts every where then, I have to fix the problems the operators create, dont need bigger ones.

Drivers are known as zipper heads. (where they pull there brains out)
hope no truckies are on here.:p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You know we make a lot of the issue about the Perenties being replaced, however as far as I can see a lot of the transport on various bases in Oz is in civilian contractor vehicles. Last year we were in the transport compound at Kapooka and all the vehicles, buses and range control vehicles were civilian Land Cruisers and Japanese trucks and buses. There was not an Army Perentie to be seen anywhere.

[George130]

my ASM (boss) told me the G-wagon is not going over seas, so the rover will still be used as the deployed vehicle. So the SASR vehicles will still be playing in the sand pit, can be fixed with wire and leatherman :p. To clear somthing up too, we currently have to many rovers, and wont be replacing all the rovers with G-wagons.

Some one said will they come with computors so the operators can fix them, NO BLOODY WAY do you want operators with computors, you will have experts every where then, I have to fix the problems the operators create, dont need bigger ones.

Drivers are known as zipper heads. (where they pull there brains out)
hope no truckies are on here.:p
Computer litracy out there is so poor that most of em wouldn't know how to turn it on.

[Nero]

Merc have been suppling military vehicles long enough I've got little doubt the G-wagon will be pretty well sort although there will be a break in period. If you go to the supercat/nary link it says it is internally loadable to a Chinook. So while people have been lining up all misty eyed for the LRPV's I've seen a reservist 110 1992 built with 8000kms on the clock thinking that might be the go when the auctions start.

[wagoo]

It looks like this might be the replacement for the SAS LRPV. I thought they were going to get some armoured Pommy Bushmaster thing (Ocelot?) but have read that the smaller shape (and radar "footprint") of a Land Rover with no windscreen is still preferable in certain situations.

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1102/mb6x6softtop.jpg (http://img577.imageshack.us/i/mb6x6softtop.jpg/)

More info here:
WOW! in General G-wagen Discussion Forum (http://australiangelandewagenownersassociation.yuku.com/topic/882/WOW)

Not much tech on that link unfortunately. I'm interested in what type of rear suspension design and driveline for the rear bogie.
The poor articulation and under spring ground clearance,plus the short life(around 45,000Km) of the rearmost double Cardan propshaft of the Perentie 6x6s didn't impress me much.
Wagoo.

[Ace]

Its a shame, but land rover can only blame themselves, no one else.

Now our troops have to drive around in the same car as Ms Spears :(

[Hay Ewe]

Its a shame, but land rover can only blame themselves, no one else.

I disagree, if the request for supply (or what ever its called) goes out and asks for the supplier to supply a 4x4, a truck that can carry 10 tonnes and a 53 seater bus, Land Rover cant blame them selves, they dont produce those vehicles.

Hay Ewe

[wagoo]

Its a shame, but land rover can only blame themselves, no one else.I disagree, if the request for supply (or what ever its called) goes out and asks for the supplier to supply a 4x4, a truck that can carry 10 tonnes and a 53 seater bus, Land Rover cant blame them selves, they dont produce those vehicles.

Hay Ewe

I think you would discover that Tata the parent company probably does produce that range of vehicles and a whole lot more.
Wagoo.

[Col.Coleman]

At the time of the tender, Land Rover was owned by Ford.

CC

[twitchy]

something like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1392.jpg

the civvy version can be seen in britney spears video clip to "you want a piece of me"


Do you know how Gay you sound knowing that!!!!! Bahahahaha ;)


( Nothing against people who bat for the other team by the way before the rest try to flame me)

[lambrover]

QUOTE=twitchy;1419035]Do you know how Gay you sound knowing that!!!!! Bahahahaha ;)


( Nothing against people who bat for the other team by the way before the rest try to flame me)[/QUOTE]


mate that is so funny, I think dave is in the RAAF as well :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:. Sorry mate had to go there.

[clubagreenie]

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Blknight.aus]

mate that is so funny, I think dave is in the RAAF as well :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:. Sorry mate had to go there.

thats ok, just remember that when I deploy that while my brethren are either navigating or sleeping under the stars Im busy choosing my hotel by them.

The army officers kick the diggers out of sleeping bags and tell them to walk over to the enemy and give them a hard time. The navy officers march around a bit walk onto the boat with their sailors and sail off over the horizon. I open the door remark "give em hell sir" as the officers climb into the planes to taxi for the runway and then after closing the door I have to make the hard decision of if I want to buy chips or a mars bar, watch an action movie or a cartoon and do I buy a coke, lemonade, ginger beer, Ice coffer or is the aircon down low enough to justify making a hot coffee?

[UncleHo]

Go Dave :) love it:D

[Barefoot Dave]

Me first,














Bloody poges ; ))):wasntme:

[wagoo]

At the time of the tender, Land Rover was owned by Ford.

CC

Ok then, so you reckon that Ford don't produce a full range of vehicles in the weight classes and drive types to tender for the various contracts?
wagoo.

[UncleHo]

Aah! they do, but if Landrover tendered for the contract it would be in direct opposition to Ford US military vehicle manufacturing division, and also Volvo another Ford US owned coy.

[JBM770]

I saw a pair of 6 wheelers (Perenties?), one with a trailer, going through Mayfield near the Ex Services club heading towards the river. They had Driver Under Instruction banners on the back.

James

[lardy]

things are a bit rough all round these days..The british Army so limited by the fact that they are not replenishing their landy's and keeping the ones they have on the road by remanufacturing parts at Hudsons (and in effect are running 10 years beyond the 20 year contracted life) are left with driving leased fridges and washing machines er I mean white fleet vehicles which have nearly all been sourced from the jap civvy market.
So any unit not active ie: driving school have to do their training with these jap things that are not even perm 4x4 and are regularly smashed to bits because they cannot perfom as well as a tul or tum wolf which is mainly the service vehicle of choice, so no GS vehicles just white lease stuff sad:(

[wagoo]

Aah! they do, but if Landrover tendered for the contract it would be in direct opposition to Ford US military vehicle manufacturing division, and also Volvo another Ford US owned coy.

So LandRovers parent Ford didn't see sufficient value in Defender as a military vehicle to incorporate it into its military vehicle division ?
Wagoo.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Land Rover was part of Ford's Premier Auto Group alongside sports and luxury vehicles. It seems that Ford considered the Defender a blight to the brand's identity, despite it being the brand to many. A green ovel on both a Range Rover and an army truck, unlikely whilst Ford PAG was in control.

[Hamish71]

thats ok, just remember that when I deploy that while my brethren are either navigating or sleeping under the stars Im busy choosing my hotel by them.

The army officers kick the diggers out of sleeping bags and tell them to walk over to the enemy and give them a hard time. The navy officers march around a bit walk onto the boat with their sailors and sail off over the horizon. I open the door remark "give em hell sir" as the officers climb into the planes to taxi for the runway and then after closing the door I have to make the hard decision of if I want to buy chips or a mars bar, watch an action movie or a cartoon and do I buy a coke, lemonade, ginger beer, Ice coffer or is the aircon down low enough to justify making a hot coffee?

I have had a lot of time for you Dave.....until now! :D
****ing RAAFIES ...you forgot to mention sporties, early knock off on Fridays, and a uniform bought from the local bus company! :D

As an Armoured Corps officer, I can tell you, I didnt "send" soldiers anywhere....they were LED!

I will join you in my disdain of pilots though!

Cheers.:wasntme:

Oh yeah,

Right on Barefoot Dave.....Bloody poges ; ))):wasntme:

[Disco44]

thats ok, just remember that when I deploy that while my brethren are either navigating or sleeping under the stars Im busy choosing my hotel by them.

The army officers kick the diggers out of sleeping bags and tell them to walk over to the enemy and give them a hard time. The navy officers march around a bit walk onto the boat with their sailors and sail off over the horizon. I open the door remark "give em hell sir" as the officers climb into the planes to taxi for the runway and then after closing the door I have to make the hard decision of if I want to buy chips or a mars bar, watch an action movie or a cartoon and do I buy a coke, lemonade, ginger beer, Ice coffer or is the aircon down low enough to justify making a hot coffee?

Ha Ha now I know why you transferred from the army Dave....Old head on young shoulders hey.
John

[THE BOOGER]

I have had a lot of time for you Dave.....until now! :D
****ing RAAFIES ...you forgot to mention sporties, early knock off on Fridays, and a uniform bought from the local bus company! :D

As an Armoured Corps officer, I can tell you, I didnt "send" soldiers anywhere....they were LED!

I will join you in my disdain of pilots though!

Cheers.:wasntme:

Oh yeah,

Right on Barefoot Dave.....Bloody poges ; ))):wasntme:

They can have him when he was green he drove buckets but not in the corp:p:D

[isuzubob]

I'm interested in what type of rear suspension design and driveline for the rear bogie.
The poor articulation and under spring ground clearance,plus the short life(around 45,000Km) of the rearmost double Cardan propshaft of the Perentie 6x6s didn't impress me much.
Wagoo.

From some detailed photos I've seen (in PDF format - trying to work out how to upload them) it looks like the back end has coils (with internal bags, like Polyairs), longitudinal track rods & anti-roll bars. Gwagens feature Panhard rods to laterally locate the axle - can't tell if this is fitted to the 6x6. The first drive axle has a power divider so no probs with DC props. Having anti-roll bars limits wheel travel but standard diff locks overcomes this.

Rob W

[Blknight.aus]

They can have him when he was green he drove buckets but not in the corp:p:D

yes because posting to ! armoured regiment as an m113a1 driver sig is in no way an arms corps posting... neither was the short stint i did attavhed 2 2 cav or at 1/15rnswl.

[Hamish71]

yes because posting to ! armoured regiment as an m113a1 driver sig is in no way an arms corps posting... neither was the short stint i did attavhed 2 2 cav or at 1/15rnswl.

LOL...so now, you are going to tell me that a posting or two within Royal Australian Easy Money Earners was hard core?:):wasntme:

Actually, I owe many beers to "spanners" all over the place. When were you at Pucka and 2 CAV?

[Blknight.aus]

I wasn't I was up in Darwin.

due to typical army stupidity, after trying to discharge me and being forced to educate me as a plant mechanic the army decided they needed my skills as an APC driver more than as a mechanic and then when I finally managed to beat their brow hard enough to get them to let me out of armour they would only give me the option of infantry or termite.

so load swinging there I was till the "you cant go overseas you're pregnant" incident.

[weeds]

I wasn't I was up in Darwin.

due to typical army stupidity, after trying to discharge me and being forced to educate me as a plant mechanic the army decided they needed my skills as an APC driver more than as a mechanic and then when I finally managed to beat their brow hard enough to get them to let me out of armour they would only give me the option of infantry or termite.

so load swinging there I was till the "you cant go overseas you're pregnant" incident.

**** happens dave...thats the way it is in the green machine

i left the regs because them and i couldn't agree on my career progression, couldn't be bothered banging heads with the system so i found a new career, 9 working days later i was discharged 9 (not bad for a crafty puling strings and short cutting the system), shocked everybody around me as nobody knew is was coming......not sure who had the last laugh as my discharge date was the 1st april. i still cannot believe guys give six months notice....

i am still knocking around in reserves earning beer coupons with the royal australian easy money earners :beer::beer:

[Blknight.aus]

After the first time doing it their way and having it cancelled so I could go play in the solomans I did it about the same way and was gone in 2 weeks. and a week of that was "resettlement training leave" that I was forced to take.

[rick130]

So LandRovers parent Ford didn't see sufficient value in Defender as a military vehicle to incorporate it into its military vehicle division ?
Wagoo.


Yep.

A mate of mine was a consulting engineer to LRA Military Vehicles in the mid nineties and was doing some interesting things under BMW.

Australia was being set up to do military design, and Sth Africa construction, leaving Solihull to civvy stuff.

As soon as Ford/PAG took over the entire military skunk works was binned. (The MD of PAG was a Yank and he wanted to bin Defender too, didn't fit the luxury 'image' he was trying to sell)

[isuzubob]

Could almost be my perfect off-road tourer.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1766/gwagen120.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/gwagen120.jpg/)

Extra cab with enough room for drivers 6' plus,

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4288/gclassute.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/gclassute.jpg/)

unlike the civy version. It sits on a 132" or so wheelbase.

More info on M-B's planned OzMil tenders

Mercedes-benz military machines showcased (http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/merc-shows-military-might-20110630-1gs7w.html?comments=22)

[bob10]

. The navy officers march around a bit walk onto the boat with their sailors and sail off over the horizon. coffee?
Never seen a Naval Officer yet that could march around without a Chief Petty Officr close behind saying 'left, right, stop looking at the women, left right, don't scratch you ****, etc,etc. By the way,apart from Submarines and Patrol Boats... ships, Dave, ships. :D Bob

[ramblingboy42]

to Hamish, you never "led" your troops....you ordered them around. I never saw an army officer lead troops from a point of respect.....only authority.....now many an NCO had the unfailing respect of his troops. I also saw many a sight picture being taken on an officers back, but never on an NCO. Officers would come into a unit (that was highly trained and skilled) and **** the men off and screw them around so much morale would instantly drop and the unit would basically become unworkable......and the officer would blame the troops.

[bob10]

to Hamish, you never "led" your troops....you ordered them around. I never saw an army officer lead troops from a point of respect.....only authority.....now many an NCO had the unfailing respect of his troops. I also saw many a sight picture being taken on an officers back, but never on an NCO. Officers would come into a unit (that was highly trained and skilled) and **** the men off and screw them around so much morale would instantly drop and the unit would basically become unworkable......and the officer would blame the troops.
Mate, you have obviously had a bad experience with a junior officer, most of us who have served have, however, don't judge all officers by that experience.Just to put things in perspective, please read a book by Paul Ham, " Kokoda", my Dad was involved as a 16 year old private, reading this book might help help you understand we are all just flawed Human beings, and we really need to support each other. By the way , I met a man called Stan Bisset one Anzac Day, and I know more than one SOLDIER who knew him would take offence at what you said. Bob

[DiscoMick]

Is it true that the reason they're moving to alloy wheels is that when hit by an IED the alloy wheels just melt in a puddle unlike the steel wheels which send hot chunks of metal flying in all directions to maim and kill?

[Ralph1Malph]

Mate, you have obviously had a bad experience with a junior officer, most of us who have served have, however, don't judge all officers by that experience.Just to put things in perspective, please read a book by Paul Ham, " Kokoda", my Dad was involved as a 16 year old private, reading this book might help help you understand we are all just flawed Human beings, and we really need to support each other. By the way , I met a man called Stan Bisset one Anzac Day, and I know more than one SOLDIER who knew him would take offence at what you said. Bob

Said the Warrant Officer to the Reo LT "I'll follow you Sir,....but only for the humour value"!
When I was a junior Soldier, most LT were contrite and genuinely believed that their success was contingent upon the success of the men. I now believe that most LT are pompous SOB's with a 'born to rule' mentality,all the faults of Gen Y and that the troops are simply tools to assist them to achieve their career milestones.

Ralph

[KarlB]

Is it true that the reason they're moving to alloy wheels is that when hit by an IED the alloy wheels just melt in a puddle unlike the steel wheels which send hot chunks of metal flying in all directions to maim and kill?

This has been discussed much earlier in the thread. The use of alloy rims has nothing to do with them melting in an explosion caused by an IED. There would simply not be enough 'instantaneous' heat produced to cause them to melt. You need a quite hot fire to do that which may follow the explosion but at a time long past the flying metal stage. It is my understanding that the alloy rims are frangible. This means that they the break-up into small pieces. The frangible metal "absorbs" more energy in an explosion thus limiting the extent of the force. Another consideration is that many quite small pieces of metal with relatively lower potential energy are likely to be less destructive than fewer large pieces with higher potential energy (think of the difference between being shot with a bullet and being shot with an equivalent weight (to the bullet) of fine talcum powder).

Cheers
KarlB

[RobHay]

I would kill for one of the SAS buggies!! Imagine peak hour traffic with one of the slug pumps hanging over the top!!!! GONE!!!! :rocket::whistling:

I thought Digger was at the head of the line.......so we all have to wait until he has made his selection. :D;):p

[Celtoid]

This has been discussed much earlier in the thread. The use of alloy rims has nothing to do with them melting in an explosion caused by an IED. There would simply not be enough 'instantaneous' heat produced to cause them to melt. You need a quite hot fire to do that which may follow the explosion but at a time long past the flying metal stage. It is my understanding that the alloy rims are frangible. This means that they the break-up into small pieces. The frangible metal "absorbs" more energy in an explosion thus limiting the extent of the force. Another consideration is that many quite small pieces of metal with relatively lower potential energy are likely to be less destructive than fewer large pieces with higher potential energy (think of the difference between being shot with a bullet and being shot with an equivalent weight (to the bullet) of fine talcum powder).

Cheers
KarlB

The alloy would be 'softer' too wouldn't it....thus limiting it's collateral penetration power?!

[Davehoos]

Our fire toyota have had alloys fitted to reduce rego wieght.I noticed to spare still is a split rim.

someone thought that 90% of maximum wieght was a good safety limit---bu they didnt design the vehicle.

I would speculate a been counter did.

[bob10]

Interesting comparo in the 4wd action mag., between alloy and steel wheels. Open to argument, I guess, but a few of the published results ;

BREAKING THE BEAD
factory alloy/ aftermarket alloy / factory steel a/m steel

105 psi / 80 psi / 95 psi/ 80 psi

IMPACT TEST ON OUTER LIP [using hydraulic press to indent rim]

factory alloy/ a/m alloy/ factory steel/ a/m steel

50kg/cm2 / 80km/cm2/ 50 km/ cm2 / 25 km/cm2

It was also reported the factory alloy wheels could be hammered back into enough shape to take a tyre ,without cracking, not the aftermarket one . obviously both steel tyres did.What was surprising to me was the fact that in the strength testing , the aftermarket alloy wheel came in 3.2 times stronger than the aftermarket steel wheel. Bob

[isuzutoo-eh]

Doesn't surprise me, the aftermarket steel wheels on my 110 are softer than Series Land Rover axles...which is why i'm switching to D1 steelies asap...

[KarlB]

Some intersting results from 4wd action mag posted by bob10. Something to keep in mind is that the alloy rims supplied for military vehicles may well be very differnt to those supplied either as a standard or aftermarket alloy rim. Also, the 4wd action mag results certainly show that there is considerable variation between alloy rims and between steel rims, and that alloy rims can easily be as 'robust' as steel rims. Most of us on here are of course primarily interested in Land Rover rims, and it is most unlikly that the 4wd action mag actually tested Landie rims, but never the less, still useful information.

Cheers
KarlB

[KarlB]

The alloy would be 'softer' too wouldn't it....thus limiting it's collateral penetration power?!

We tend to think that alloy rims are largely aluminium (not magnesium), which is true, but there would be a variety of other metals alloyed with the aluminium and in different proportions for different reasons. This is no different from the situation with our Land Rover body panels which are an alloy of 92% aluminium, 7% magnesium and 1% manganese, that goes by the trade name of Bermabright. I am not a metalurgist, but I would imagine alloying titanium with the aluminium would make it much harder but at considerable monetary cost. So I don't think alloy rims have to be softer than steel but I would assume they usually are for cost reasons. There may be ways to work harden the surface as well.

[isuzurover]

I am not a metalurgist, but I would imagine alloying titanium with the aluminium would make it much harder but at considerable monetary cost. So I don't think alloy rims have to be softer than steel but I would assume they usually are for cost reasons. There may be ways to work harden the surface as well.

Karl - sorry, but it doesn't quite work like that. i.e. - you can't determine the properties of an alloy based on the properties of the constituents.

e.g. lead/tin solder has a melting point much lower than either lead or tin.

Hardening aluminium is generally the opposite of hardening steel. e.g. heating up then cooling down quickly hardens steel but anneals (softens) aluminium alloys.

Most aluminium alloys are surface treated/hardened. Aluminium also tends to surface harden over time as it ages.

[KarlB]

Karl - sorry, but it doesn't quite work like that. i.e. - you can't determine the properties of an alloy based on the properties of the constituents.

e.g. lead/tin solder has a melting point much lower than either lead or tin.

Hardening aluminium is generally the opposite of hardening steel. e.g. heating up then cooling down quickly hardens steel but anneals (softens) aluminium alloys.

Most aluminium alloys are surface treated/hardened. Aluminium also tends to surface harden over time as it ages.

I'm not surprised. Metallurgy seems like a black art to me.

Cheers
KarlB

[clubagreenie]

I have a metalurgist friend I use for desiging engine components and he say this is why we do it and I just say ok.

[Celtoid]

We tend to think that alloy rims are largely aluminium (not magnesium), which is true, but there would be a variety of other metals alloyed with the aluminium and in different proportions for different reasons. This is no different from the situation with our Land Rover body panels which are an alloy of 92% aluminium, 7% magnesium and 1% manganese, that goes by the trade name of Bermabright. I am not a metalurgist, but I would imagine alloying titanium with the aluminium would make it much harder but at considerable monetary cost. So I don't think alloy rims have to be softer than steel but I would assume they usually are for cost reasons. There may be ways to work harden the surface as well.

Mmmmm....OK....LOL.

I was actually making the point that the ADF may want the rims 'softer' (in relative terms) to steel....so that fragments are less damaging. Some of the explosion's energy would be absorbed as the flying alloy compresses against other objects (eg other vehicles, etc). Effectively negating some of the exploding energy (and penetration power) as apposed to becoming part of the bomb, as steel fragments do.

Kev.

[TerryO]

Mmmmm....OK....LOL.

I was actually making the point that the ADF may want the rims 'softer' (in relative terms) to steel....so that fragments are less damaging. Some of the explosion's energy would be absorbed as the flying alloy compresses against other objects (eg other vehicles, etc). Effectively negating some of the exploding energy (and penetration power) as apposed to becoming part of the bomb, as steel fragments do.

Kev.

I'd guess the outcome would be about the same if you were hit by flying fragments of either a steel wheel or a aluminium wheel, let alone all the other bits of the vehicle that would be flying in every direction.

cheers,
Terry

[Celtoid]

I'd guess the outcome would be about the same if you were hit by flying fragments of either a steel wheel or a aluminium wheel, let alone all the other bits of the vehicle that would be flying in every direction.

cheers,
Terry

To a soft squashy human maybe Terry...LOL...but not to other things maybe or the guys hiding behind them....full metal jacket bullet versus standard lead bullet I suppose would be a good example.....maybe :confused:

That is of course if the rims are really that much softer than steel.

Cheers,

Kev.

[TerryO]

To a soft squashy human maybe Terry...LOL...but not to other things maybe or the guys hiding behind them....full metal jacket bullet versus standard lead bullet I suppose would be a good example.....maybe :confused:

That is of course if the rims are really that much softer than steel.

Cheers,

Kev.


Hats off to those that do wear the uniform but you just reminded me why I didn't join the army (apart from the fact they would not have me) as I prefer my soft squashy bits to remain intact.


Cheers,
Terry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

We tend to think that alloy rims are largely aluminium (not magnesium), which is true, but there would be a variety of other metals alloyed with the aluminium and in different proportions for different reasons. This is no different from the situation with our Land Rover body panels which are an alloy of 92% aluminium, 7% magnesium and 1% manganese, that goes by the trade name of Bermabright. I am not a metalurgist, but I would imagine alloying titanium with the aluminium would make it much harder but at considerable monetary cost. So I don't think alloy rims have to be softer than steel but I would assume they usually are for cost reasons. There may be ways to work harden the surface as well.Actually I don't think Land Rover Defender panels are still made of "Birmabright". If they are an aluimiium alloy at all, it is at lower concentrations.

BTW Birmabright is merely a trade name of aluminium alloys of different concentrations made by the Birmetals Co.

[isuzurover]

If they are an aluimiium alloy at all, it is at lower concentrations.

Pure aluminium is soft as butter. 10 mm pure AL flatbar can be bent by hand.
AFAIK they made the panels thinner on defenders - which is the reason they dent easily.

The concentration (%) of alloying agent does not equate to strength with alloys AFAIK.


BTW Birmabright is merely a trade name of aluminium alloys of different concentrations made by the Birmetals Co.


Birmabright is a trade name of the former Birmetals Co. (Birmabright works in Clapgate Lane, Quinton, Birmingham, UK) for various types of lightweight sheet metal in an alloy of aluminium and magnesium. The constituents are 7% magnesium, sometimes 1% manganese, and the remainder aluminium.[1] The BB2 is one example, of which equivalent specifications are British standard NS4, American 5251 and ISO designation AlMg2.

Gas welding of Birmabright is easier than that of pure aluminium and may be carried out using scraps of the same material as a filler rod.

Birmabright is best known as the material used in the body of the Land Rover and other classic British vehicles. The doors, boot lid and bonnet of most Rover P4 models were also Birmabright, however towards the end of production this was changed to steel to reduce costs. An early use in the 1930s was for the bodywork of the land speed record car, Thunderbolt. Also used for the bodywork of Bluebird K7 used for the Coniston speed record attempt by the late Donald Campbell

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Pure aluminium is soft as butter. 10 mm pure AL flatbar can be bent by hand.
AFAIK they made the panels thinner on defenders - which is the reason they dent easily.

The concentration (%) of alloying agent does not equate to strength with alloys AFAIK.And what research have you done on the thickness of the panels?

[isuzurover]

And what research have you done on the thickness of the panels?

I haven't measured them if that is what you mean, but have read somewhere that they reduced the thickness of some panels.

It would be easy to measure the thickness of the folded over lip of the door skins - and compare between a series and defender.

[DiscoMick]

Interesting piece in the latest 4WD Action comparing steel and alloy wheels.