Which engine in Defender 130 for the big trip?

[dutchontoast]

Hi, my name is Kai, a dutch Kiwi who's been living in Melbourne for much of the new millenium.

I used to own a Defender 90 in Holland, going back 16 years now…

My wife and I, along with our 2 kids, are preparing for the big trip - Melbourne to the UK, spending 18 months overlanding, taking the India, Pakistan, Iran route into Turkey and onwards…

We're currently shopping around for a Defender 130, as the tray will fit a tray-on camper, to sleep all 4 of us comfortably. It's one of the few vehicles that will take the estimated 1200kg payload, and I know it will do the job.

Here's my dilemma, there's lot's of people for and against the isuzu engine(s), or td5/300tdi, for various reasons, most of this is based around towing, and there aren't any hills to speak of in Oz, so this trip has different requirements from those that use their vehicle only in Australia.

I would appreciate some advise from all you knowledgeable landy people as to which engine will be best for the trip we're doing, considering we'll have a 1000kg + payload, and yes there are some high hills to climb, think the himalaya's into Kathmandu, and the highest road in the world through Pakistan.

- I understand the TDI engine is easier to fix (important for the countries we're travelling through), as it has less electrics then the TD5, but the TD5 has more grunt, which has to be a good thing when going up lots of hills with a heavy payload, this would make the TDI somewhat underpowered, no?

- So, TDI or TD5?

- If TD5, should we look at an upgrade kit such as the Davis Performance Landys (DPL) upgrade package, as mentioned on Overlander 4WD Magazine - Australia's leading four wheel drive magazine (http://www.overlander.com.au) for TD5? If so, do we really need the GKN overdrive unit, or could we just stick to the $2500 engine upgrade, to help us get up those hills a bit better?

- There's a lot of mention of putting 2.8 or 4 L isuzu's in the Defender, of course people that HAVE done it think it's the best thing since sliced bread, and the people that haven't swear it's completely unnecesary, really.

How much would it cost - isuzu engine + fitting, and is it wise in my case? I'd love some frank advice, bearing in mind the trip that this defender will be taking, including resale value in the UK, servicability on the way, and the fact that i don't want to do modifications to the vehicle that will either make it harder to fix or more likely to break down.

- Lastly, budget: I had in mind buying a 1998-2003 model, depending on which engine is the wisest choice, so that puts us in at around $25-33K, the higher the initial price the less we can spend on possible engine mods…

cheers

Kai

[Psimpson7]

You are going to open a huge can of works here. I would suggest a search on the subject should bring up a number of discussions.

I would pick a TD5, as would probably 50% of the people on here, but the other 50% would take a TDI so its really down to what you are comfortable with.

In all honesty the TD5 is fairly simple for an electroniclally controlled engine and you can get diagnostics for a reasonable outlay.

Drive them both and pick the best example of whichever you prefer.

[rovercare]

The Isuzu WILL tow that wieght better than anything and be the most reliable, its also a loud rattley noisy pig of a thing:D

Maybe the cost to fit would be offset by a premium when sold in the UK? surely there is some demand for big cube economical diesels there:twisted:

Also the cost would be offset by the sale of the original donk

[rovercare]

Also, your more than welcome to come take my RR for a thrash:),

[spudboy]

For your budget you will get a really nice condition 130, in the year range you are looking for.

If you go the "Chip" on a TD5 you could always keep the standard ECU as a backup and pack it away at the bottom of your spares box just in case. It's not very heavy or big.

As said on your intro thread, I think the TD5 is a perfectly good choice. You'll need to take along some spares that you don't have to think about on a 300TDi , like a spare throttle potentiometer, etc but you get the benefits of a newer engine with a bit more power (lot more if chipped).

The Izuzu thing is predominantly Australian. In 3 years of bumming around East Africa and having a keen interest in Land Rovers I never saw anything other than genuine OE fitted LR engines. So my vote would be to forget the Izuzu option and stick with the standard LR engines (be that 300TDi or TD5).

Cheers
David

[dobbo]

I'd go with an Isuzu or the TDi, you want simplicity and reliability for an epic adventure like that. The Isuzu would be my prefered one between the two.

[Defender=1st]

Id go a 300Tdi...

[barney]

i would too. with some of the countries you're going to, you wont be able to rely on a good dealership network.
look at the lousy network in Australia for example, none of the dealerships have any really good mechanics, they've all left to go to specialist repairers after the money.
your chances of finding a TD5-savvy mechanic in the wilds of tibet are pretty slim, where the 300tdi has no electrics and you'd have a better chance of fixing it yourself or finding someone that could do it for you.

[jimbo110]

And also remember the quality of the fuel, I'm sure a TD5 would just love a shandy of diesel, kerosene and god only knows what else! The military never used TD5's for a reason...................GO THE TDI!

[abaddonxi]

Find a couple and take them for a drive. I don't think there's really enough between them to make that much of a difference.

I reckon that you should decide on cabin noise rather than power, repairability, etc.

You should pick the best vehicle with the best logbook that's been serviced obsessively.

If you're on the road for eighteen months, you're likely to break down, and will probably have to fly parts in. With eighteen months, a few days here or there shouldn't be that pressing.

I reckon you'd be mad to take an Isuzu, the cabin noise would have you regretting it every day for the entire trip.

Although not being able to make conversation while you're driving could be a good thing.:p

Cheers
Simon

[rovercare]

I reckon you'd be mad to take an Isuzu, the cabin noise would have you regretting it every day for the entire trip.



Cheers
Simon

This would be a serious thing to consider, although the fitment of a turbo shuts it up a bit.............not to say its good, but better:D

And since the engine would be out, sound proofing would make a huge difference.............soemthing I'm regretting:(

[Blknight.aus]

as everyone else has said...

If your staying within cooee of support, can guarentee top quality fuel and can afford the potential spare parts you'll need go the td5 you cant go past it once youve gotten it chipped.

If you cant go the tdi.

the money you save on a TDI will probably be spent on extra fuel and the more frequent maintenance of the TDI but almost any diesel mech can fix it and theres enough of them around that you can usually scrounge for parts and get away with it.

[The ho har's]

i have 130 td5 with a slide on camper of GVM 3.5 tons great on hills just done the kimberley 16000 km round trip :) did not miss a beat

[mcrover]

Your issue here isnt so much power but speed and gearing.

There is nothing wrong with the power of a 300Tdi in low range, it will just take a long time to get anywhere.

As long as your willing to take a bit of time to get places then the Tdi would be your choice and throw in som 4:11 diff gears when you put the lockers in that you will also be wanting.

This will over come any issues of lack of power but your top speed will be diminished but with 1200kgs on board and coil spring suspention, maybe that wont be so much a big deal.

If you really think you need the power I would go the Isuzu in turbo form before a TD5 as no matter what the TD5 owners say, they rely on power to make them run and all the electronics cant be said to be anywhere near as reliable or as easilly repairable as nuts and bolts.

Unless you are great with electrics and have no fear of programing etc then stay clear of the TD5 for something like this, too many gremlins.

I think you will find that most of the generic Isuzu parts will be found on just about any Isuzu truck (such as injectors, filters, belts, pulleys etc etc) and any 4BD1 powered Isuzu (FSR I think is the most common) will carry everything else other than the 12v stuff.

This means seems Isuzu trucks are sold in just about every country in the world and 4BD1's are also sold as stationary engines as well you should be able to access parts for Isuzu stuff just about anywhere.

The 300TDI should be available just about anywhere as well so that would still be my pick.

Good luck on your trip and I hope this helps in some way :D

PS, If you go meet up with Rovercare, take lots of Melbourne Bitter (or a good bottle of port) so you can get some sense out of him lol :angel:

[Michael2]

I'd buy the 300Tdi - reasons :

lower initial price
simplicity
3rd world parts availability
more water proof ;) (ie ECU)

Someone I know, last year drove a Defender from Vladivostok to London and chose a 200Tdi for the sake of mechanical simplicity - no timing belt issues like the 300Tdi. Being an Australian Land Rover (not exposed to salt roads) it sold immediately in London. He put it on ebay with a Buy it Now price and it was sold within a couple of days.

The Tdi's according to LRO Magazine, are holding their value really well in the UK, though that applies mainly to wagons, and the 130 may have Tax issues in London, being a commercial vehicle.

[dutchontoast]

Well, sounds like TDI is the way to go!

Thanks everyone for the responses, I feel overwhelmed getting so 14 replies in 2 hours on a Sunday night, what a great community this is…

I was looking at a '98 model today, has been on a farm for 10 years, only done 85K, so been banging around in a paddock for most of it's life… not sure if this is a good or a bad thing… the engine's probably done a lot of hours in low gear, i wonder what problems i can expect with it, low gears might be a bit tired?

There's another one in Adelaide, '99 model, 95K, probably similar history, and those are the only 130 tdi's available at the moment…

[MacFamily]

What ever you buy make sure to post some pics of the 130 and also when you have the camper on the back.

Also another vote for 300tdi but Ive never driven a Td5 so I cant say anything bad against them.

Also if you intend on buying either of the defenders in your last post first thing you should get done is the timing belt if it hasnt been done already.

Goodluck with everything and hope you enjoy your trip.

[dutchontoast]

Thanks Azza, will certainly post some pix once i'm the proud owner of one…

There's only ONE 130 tdi for sale in oz at the moment, it's a '98 that's been banging around on a farm for most of it's life… only done 85K, but probably lots of hours in a paddock… not sure if that's a bad thing?

Can anyone give me any thoughts on this please?

Asking price is $28K, has a bit of rust on the hinges, a tiny bit of corrosion on bottom edges of doors, clean underbody, good rubbers on bonnet, and quite a few smallish to medium sized dents in doors in body… ie, not fantastic presentation, but seems structurally sound…

Could i get the price down much? It's at a dealer. Or should i stay away from a farm truck?

[Psimpson7]

Id probably stay away if it looks rough. Does it have a full service history? cant imagine it has been looked after properly if the panels are stoved in.. Also 28k is a fair amount of cash. At that money I would definetley want a newer / better condition one.

Going back to the tdi/td5 vs Isuzu argument, I would be pretty confident which ever one you got, if you did have problems, you wouldnt have the parts with you anyway, and would need to get them shipped out. You can only carry so much, and if you have it as a spare the likely hood is that it wont break!

Isuzu engine may well harm resale in the UK.

Last thing, however simple it is it can still break down, ie alternator failing will have you stopped fairly quickly, and with teh TD5 electronics, there are only about 4 sensors that will stop them running, and every one of them is easier to change than a cambelt.

I would definetley have someone at home that can have stuff shipped to you if needed.

good luck!!

[spudboy]

Asking price is $28K, has a bit of rust on the hinges, a tiny bit of corrosion on bottom edges of doors, clean underbody, good rubbers on bonnet, and quite a few smallish to medium sized dents in doors in body… ie, not fantastic presentation, but seems structurally sound…


I reckon $28 is quite high for the year and the condition. It'd have to have a shed load of accessories to make it worth that money IMO.

I paid $21K for a 2002 TD5 130 crew cab 2 years ago if that gives you some benchmark. It came with bullbar, Long Range tanks, water tanks, full alloy canopy, dual spare tyres, dual batteries, HD Diffs, reinforced chassis, snorkel and 120,000Km. Body was pretty tidy with just a few very minor dings in the door. It needed $500 spent on it straight away (Fuel regulator at the rear of the engine was leaking) and a new stereo (the cassette player still worked but ......), so call it $22K all up to get mobile.

I'd keep looking, and don't be embarrased to offer significantly lower than the asking price. The guy selling mine was asking $26. I offered $20. Settled on $21.

Make sure you check out the chassis. 130's have a habit of cracking if they have been abused or overloaded, and they get hairline cracks that turn into bigger problems. Do a search here and you will find more info.

HTH
David

[dutchontoast]

Thanks for that feedback David,

Sounds like you got a great deal on the TD5, there seem to be a lot more around of those, ie one might have to pay a premium for no electrics - either way i will have to be patient :-)

Take your comments on board re fixing a TD5 overseas, suppose it's a matter of finding a mechanic who know his stuff…

Thanks PSimpson, yes, the resale value of an isuzu fitted defender in the UK was one of my concerns as well, best to keep things a bit more standard I suppose…

All very helpful comments, much appreciated!

[abaddonxi]

<snip>

There's only ONE 130 tdi for sale in oz at the moment, it's a '98 that's been banging around on a farm for most of it's life… only done 85K, but probably lots of hours in a paddock… not sure if that's a bad thing?

Can anyone give me any thoughts on this please?

Asking price is $28K, has a bit of rust on the hinges, a tiny bit of corrosion on bottom edges of doors, clean underbody, good rubbers on bonnet, and quite a few smallish to medium sized dents in doors in body… ie, not fantastic presentation, but seems structurally sound…

Could i get the price down much? It's at a dealer. Or should i stay away from a farm truck?

That sounds like a lot of money for 300tdi.

For that kind of money I'd want it to be plated in gold. Not a scratch, immaculate interior, not a spot of rust, full service history, one obsessive compulsive owner who was a city stockbroker who only drove it to work.

I think that rust at the hinge screws is generally a good indicator of rust elsewhere.

There's a 130 off Fraser Island on Ebay at the moment for $7k. Now I wouldn't recommend buying it, but for that money you could replace the chassis and the body and just about anything else and still come away with change from $28k.

The benchmark I use for 300tdi 130 prices is a pair of ex-Rural Fire Service Defenders that went up for auction less than a year ago. Under 50k Km, immaculate body - judging from pictures only - and went for mid-late $20k. If I was in the market at the time I would have snapped one up. They looked like they were new.

Cheers
Simon

[Wilbur]

Thanks Azza, will certainly post some pix once i'm the proud owner of one…

There's only ONE 130 tdi for sale in oz at the moment, it's a '98 that's been banging around on a farm for most of it's life… only done 85K, but probably lots of hours in a paddock… not sure if that's a bad thing?

Can anyone give me any thoughts on this please?

Asking price is $28K, has a bit of rust on the hinges, a tiny bit of corrosion on bottom edges of doors, clean underbody, good rubbers on bonnet, and quite a few smallish to medium sized dents in doors in body… ie, not fantastic presentation, but seems structurally sound…

Could i get the price down much? It's at a dealer. Or should i stay away from a farm truck?

Wow!! That's an insane price for a 130 unless it is like new, and even then.... trust me, a better deal will soon come up. Two weeks ago I bought a one owner 2001 TD5 (110 not 130) trayback from a dealer for $12,990 with RWC and all on road costs. It is a great car.

I have big reservations about farm vehicles. A rule of thumb is to multiply the kilometres by 3 for a farm vehicle.

I have both a 130 TD5 and a 130 300TDi. I have a home-made slide-on for the 300TDi, total weight with fuel, water etc is 3,300Kgs. I still cruise at 100 KPH in still air, and although it slows on hills, there are plenty of gears.

These are both wonderful engines. The TD5 is a bit quieter and more refined, but the 300TDi pulls better at low speed.

You have a fabulous trip coming up - please keep the forum posted on your progress if you possibly can. Happy travels,

Cheers,

Paul

[bushrover]

Until I bought a TD5 I would have said a TDi would be the way to go. The TD5 is one of the simplest electronic engines around and I am sure there would be people on here that would be willing to give you a run down on problems you may encounter and repairs. Even if you pay Graham Cooper or similar a couple of hours labour and have them go over your vehicle with you to point out potential problems and service points would be money well spent. I would suggest the TD5 would be the easiest to repair yourself if you have diagnostic software (nanocom), as everything in the fuel system and monitoring system is pretty much remove, replace and update ecu if required. The likely hood of something going wrong with a TDi is significantly less but if you have major fuel problems you will need an experienced mechanic. In your position I would buy whichever 130 came up at the right price and best condition and if it is a TD5 get diagnostic software and have someone show you how to use it. I am slowly building up my spare parts, sensors, ecu, etc for my TD5 and would not hesitate to take it anywhere. My next vehicle will be a TD5 130 so leave a good one for me.

Rick

[mcrover]

I dont understand why people keep bringing up 300Tdi timing belts.

As long as they are done regularly (80,000kms) and are done properly they dont fail.

As far as the rest of the mechanical fuel inj goes.......mines done 308,000kms now on the original injectors and still pulled 12ltr/100kms on a 800+ km run with a tandam trailer load of steel for my shed kinda means fuel supply problems are not so much an issue with a Tdi.

TD5 is a good motor but this bloke is going where TD5's just dont normally go and most of the mechanics will have never seen one as well as you can buy a lot of hand tools for what a Noncom will cost you and the hand tools fit the rest of the car and not just the computer.

You need power to 1 wire on a 300Tdi to keep it going and if your clever (and desparate) you dont even need that, you could do away with the fuel sol all together but it is a stuff around a bit.

TD5 is a good engine (I didnt really say that did I?), but as said before, no power no go, that is number 1 so spares would read :

#1 Alternator
#2 Batteries
#3 Sensors
#4 Computer
#5 Nanocom computer thingy
+ pretty much everything else that you would take for a Tdi

Check this out, I copiled this for a mate who bought a TD5 Disco so he could be awake to what he should look out for.....he took it differently and has be forking out money ever since, latest was on a timing cover for some reason.

Sorry I dont have one for the Tdi, but keep it serviced, good quality filters and feed it timing belts, serpantine belts and idler pulley bearings and theres not much more to go wrong which will stop you.

I would take a spare serpantine belt tensioner and all belts hoses etc but just normal stuff really.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/57048-another-td5-oil-pump-bolt-scare.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/57134-funny-brakes-fixed-provent.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/57127-alternator-not-working-td5.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/56249-help-my-td5-please.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/56565-td5-clutch-flare.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/56406-td5-water-leak.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/56505-td5-exhaust-manifold-failure.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/56652-d2-oil-wiring-harness.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/56621-power-trouble.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/56573-d2-lights-what.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/55880-my-td5-overheating.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/56087-good-bad-ugly.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/48451-300tdi-vs-td5.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/56171-td5-engine-life.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/56233-d2-td5-head-gasket.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/electronic-diagnostics/56282-d2-td5-dashboard-lightshow.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/55183-discovery-2-td5-torque-converter-mods.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/56164-warning-lights-instrument-panel-td5.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/56115-99-td5-auto-mods.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/41187-disco-td5-raising-oil-level-any-ideas.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/22241-no-cdl-sand.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/55931-who-turned-lights-off.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/53635-td5-disco2-engine-harshness.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/51779-my-traction-control-working.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/44282-defender-td5-fuel-pressure-regulator.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/55702-engine-mounts-td5.html
This is just interesting http://www.aulro.com/afvb/parking-lot/55755-td5-engine.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/55720-smokey-td5.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/55586-td5-disco-fair-amount-smoke.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/44523-replacement-fuel-pumps-research.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/51884-td5-flywheel.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/57487-soft-chirping-noise-d2-td5.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/57987-td5-wont-start.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/57947-unexplainable-power-td5.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/57770-auto-tranny.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/57870-td5-loosing-power-mid-throttle-strange.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/58627-no-glow-plugs.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/58612-td5-defender-starting-woes.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/58286-td5-oil-leak.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/58667-td5-clutch-help.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/59275-mates-td5-woes.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/41943-td5-harmonic-vibration.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/59505-td5-interesting-problem-solved.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/59669-td5-dont-trust-temp-gauge.html#post777773
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/59659-td5-brittle-hose-warning.html
Serious dangerous problem http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/59668-warning-contains-violent-images-underside-disco.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/39019-td5-fuel-cooler-leaks.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/60099-help-alice-d2-td5-running-hot.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/60288-d2-td5-losing-water-somewhere-2.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/61004-td5-injector-seals.html
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery/60940-td5-spewing-oil.html

[big guy]

On long isolated trips or whenever reliability is concerned, I go by the motto of KISS.
Keep It Simple Stupid.

The most important part of your trip is your vehicle, you must have faith in your transportation so but it soon and drive its legs off it so you know it.

For my money, a basic tdi or a late model Td5 where a land rover mech has gone well through it.


I thought again, KISS, so go the tdi.

Thats my 5 cent worth.;);););););)

[isuzurover]

I think you have made up your mind, but I would vote for Isuzu or 300tdi.

DaveS on here drove an OZ -built 110 county from vancouver-panama-vancouver a while back, and my wife and I tagged along for half the trip.

IME in 3rd world countries, you want to have something you can fix with a hammer and screwdriver - because that's what most of the local mechanics will have!!! (although we did see a sign in a tiny little village in Guatemala that said "OBDII" ;) )

On our trip, we lost count of the number of GMC trucks we saw which were fitted with IZUZU 4BD1/3.9 engines. We could probably have bought a new engine for $50 USD in Guatemala or mexico, and had it fitted for another $20!!!

Halfway through the trip, we re-timed the injector pump (it had been out since the engine was reco'd) and did a wheel alignment in a dirt carpark attached to a motel.

As for hills, we drove up and down plenty of volcanoes, and drove to the highest point on the pan american highway. No problem. A turbo would have been nice though when we hit the head winds from hell in Wyoming.

[mox]

And also remember the quality of the fuel, I'm sure a TD5 would just love a shandy of diesel, kerosene and god only knows what else! The military never used TD5's for a reason...................GO THE TDI!

The British Army has apparently never used Td5's. However, I saw a report that the Yank military bought 100 Defenders with them for use in the Middle East. (Maybe to drive in narrow streets, etc that Hummers are to wide for.) Apparently one thing they liked about them is that Td5's can be run on straight jet fuel, which was used during their development. It is necessary to add some appropriate lubricant before using jet fuel in mechanical diesels.

An issue for the military is that if they use a different type of motor, they also have to train mechanics to work on them and keep another range of spare parts.

I think the British Army also may not have used the Rover 6 cylinder petrol motor, Many others familiar with Land Rovers who prefer to avoid them undoubtedly regard this as sensible policy.

[TwoUp]

There is one for sale up here. It is a Td5 but has all. It may be greater than your budget figure,but is the ducks guts. Have had the pleasure of travelling with it (includes a couple of Simpson trips),even loaded is great. On highway its manners are great and the increase in power (think it's chipped in Mackay), is noticeable.

Twin cab, ie four doors and a Trayon. Set up nothing to do. It is not mine and I have no interest in it's sale. PM for details if you like, it is not cheap but as said is fully equiped (includes toot).

Regards,
PeterW

[dutchontoast]

Ha, i feel indeed i've opened a can of worms, but quite an interesting one at that… a much more interesting debate then the, say, canon v. nikon debate…

At least 'most' here agree that when in the middle of nowhere i'm probably better off with TDI, the KISS rule is certainly a good one… Simpson, thank you for your long list of potential problems, uh, worms, with TD5s

Rick, you almost make the TD5 (chipped or not) sound attractive! If only i could have you in my back pocket and ready to pull out when i'm stuck in that deadspot in the Iranian desert with too much cloud coverage for sat phone reception and the local bandits lurking in the bushes…

No seriously, you make me feel a lot better about buying a TD5 if i really have to, ie, if it just gets too hard to find a good TDI…

In the mean time, i'll have patience… We have to sell our business first before the 130 can be purchased…

Oh, and a special mention of thanks goes to McRover, with his long list on links on potential issues with TD5s… i'm now reading the pdf 'Understanding and tuning the Injection Pump of Land Rover Tdi Engines'

Thanks all for the feedback everyone, it's really appreciated :-)

Kai

[spudboy]

Don't be put off by McRovers extensive list of TD5 'worms'. They are a good engine, and you could probably make a list that long for any engine :D I've got one of each (TD5/300Tdi) and they are both excellent engines.

We had a French couple (Martine & Robert - who others also met up with) and they did the reverse trip to you from Paris to Australia via Oman, Pakistan, India etc in a TD5. They had a trouble free run in theirs and have since driven on to NZ I believe (via some sort of boat of course).

Anyway - I'm sure you'll do your own evaluation and work out the best course of action for you & your family.

Good on you for planning such a trip because 99.9% of people just want to go the quick and easy way.
David

[Wilbur]

i'm now reading the pdf 'Understanding and tuning the Injection Pump of Land Rover Tdi Engines'

Kai

Hi Kai,

Where did you find that pdf please? It sounds a useful read!

Cheers,

Paul

[dutchontoast]

Hi Kai,

Where did you find that pdf please? It sounds a useful read!

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul, http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment...ng-20rev.2.pdf (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/326d1152411367-how-get-more-hp-out-tdi-300-thermoguard-20tdi-20tuning-20rev.2.pdf)

[Tusker]

Interesting thread... again.

Having had a 200tdi & a TD5, I'd go TD5 every time.

Memory is a bit hazy now of tdi problems so I happily stand corrected on any of the following..

Timing belts will always be an issue. I had one walk & fray, picked up by Graeme Coopers on service, changed at 20,000 kms

I think I'd rather clean loom connections than change a belt in the bush! There really aren't any ECU issues other than the oil in the loom thing. Nonetheless, a Nanocom & a satphone is piece of mind.

Not sure about tdis, but the TD5 will run on low cetane African diesel. Its a one-spec world engine. Bad fuel will kill both though.

And I know from experience, the Td5 will run for 3 days with the underseat area full of muddy water. Not to be recommended obviuosly, it was the fuel regulator that finally played up & stopped it.

As I understand it the military don't like TD5s, or any other modern EFI diesel, is that the loom interferes with HF radio. That's all.

Tdis need a mod to warn you of coolant loss. The std sensor is to low, & the damage is done when the dashboard light comes on.

Tdis do head gaskets about every 150-160,000 kms. And replacement heads are getting very scarce.

Tdis have a clutch thats too small, doesn't last long enough with any loads, towing etc.

All the non-ECU Td5 issues that come to mind can be sorted before you go. Exhaust manifold, oil pump bolt, & head studs on early vehicles. Preventative maintenance applies to any vehicle.

That's enough from me..

Regards
Max P

[dutchontoast]

Interesting thread... again.

Having had a 200tdi & a TD5, I'd go TD5 every time.

Memory is a bit hazy now of tdi problems so I happily stand corrected on any of the following..

Timing belts will always be an issue. I had one walk & fray, picked up by Graeme Coopers on service, changed at 20,000 kms

I think I'd rather clean loom connections than change a belt in the bush! There really aren't any ECU issues other than the oil in the loom thing. Nonetheless, a Nanocom & a satphone is piece of mind.

Not sure about tdis, but the TD5 will run on low cetane African diesel. Its a one-spec world engine. Bad fuel will kill both though.

And I know from experience, the Td5 will run for 3 days with the underseat area full of muddy water. Not to be recommended obviuosly, it was the fuel regulator that finally played up & stopped it.

As I understand it the military don't like TD5s, or any other modern EFI diesel, is that the loom interferes with HF radio. That's all.

Tdis need a mod to warn you of coolant loss. The std sensor is to low, & the damage is done when the dashboard light comes on.

Tdis do head gaskets about every 150-160,000 kms. And replacement heads are getting very scarce.

Tdis have a clutch thats too small, doesn't last long enough with any loads, towing etc.

All the non-ECU Td5 issues that come to mind can be sorted before you go. Exhaust manifold, oil pump bolt, & head studs on early vehicles. Preventative maintenance applies to any vehicle.

That's enough from me..

Regards
Max P

Thanks Max - i think! - i'm now getting slightly confused… i'm gathering that whatever issues the early TD5s had were ironed out in the later models, but by what year, 2003?

As an earlier poster mentioned, there's pros and cons for both engines, and it really seems to be a case of finding the truck with the best maintenance records, rather then focusing purely on the engine…

Time will tell which way i'll go with this…

[bushrover]

If only i could have you in my back pocket and ready to pull out when i'm stuck in that deadspot in the Iranian desert with too much cloud coverage for sat phone reception and the local bandits lurking in the bushes…
No problem I will be ready to go when you are:)

Oh, and a special mention of thanks goes to McRover, with his long list on links on potential issues with TD5s… i'm now reading the pdf 'Understanding and tuning the Injection Pump of Land Rover Tdi Engines'

Thanks all for the feedback everyone, it's really appreciated :-)

Kai That's the best thing about this site, no matter what you decide on some one here will be able to help.

[isuzurover]

To elaborate on my previous post...

In most of the world, trucks with 4BD1 engines are plentiful, so spares are everywhere.

Also, Tdi powered landies are quite common, and the Bosch VE injection pump which they use is also used on about 50 other common vehicles - albeit with different settings, but you could cobble something together to get you going again if needed.

If I was taking a Td5 to a remote 3rd world location, I would be carrying a spare loom, spare main pump and set of unit injectors, spare oil pump, and possibly a spare computer (and definitely a nanocom or whatever system to read any fault codes). I would also make sure I had some sort of failsafe battery system - you can push start a 4BD1 or Tdi and it will run all day with a dead battery, alternator or both. If the battery on a Td5 is too flat, it won't work the efi system.

[Bigbjorn]

You are planning to travel through the icehole of the world. Remote area/outback travel is no place for electronically controlled engines. They do not like heat and dust, are prone to instantaneous, catastrophic failure, and generally can not be diagnosed without special equipment. This stuff and the skills to use it are a bit scarce in Afghanistan and Iran. Likewise replacement electronic bits. I would be looking for a good 110 County-Isuzu, or the rare 120 Isuzu. Good condition and well equipped ones can be had from $7000 up. Really good & superbly equipped ones around $12000. The Isuzu will just keep chugging on and as Isuzurover says will function without any electricity at all provided you can push/tow/roll start it.

[dutchontoast]

I would be looking for a good 110 County-Isuzu, or the rare 120 Isuzu. Good condition and well equipped ones can be had from $7000 up. Really good & superbly equipped ones around $12000. The Isuzu will just keep chugging on and as Isuzurover says will function without any electricity at all provided you can push/tow/roll start it.
Hi Brian, i take your point on th e 110 County-Isuzu, but we really need the dual cab 130 + tray for this trip… But another vote for non electrics i take it! I'm not so keen putting an isuzo motor in a 130, due to costs and resale value in the UK… the poms like them original, or prefer to convert themselves…

[mark2]

I would think that power on the steep roads in third world countries wont be an issue for consideration. The roads will likely be narrow and winding with terrifying drop-offs and you wont be able to go safely fast, even if you had more power. Chances are, you'll be stuck behind a slow moving, grossly underpowered, overloaded truck anyway.

I met a forum member last weekend with a fanstastic Isuzu 4BD1 turbo conversion in his Defender which looked factory in every way. He maintained it was quieter than then the Tdi it replaced but I dont know if insulation was added during the conversion.

An Isuzu 4JB1T (2.8 turbo - ex Holden Rodeo or Jackaroo) would be my first preference for what you are doing - they are easier to find these days than the old 3.9 and conversion kits are available ex the UK for a reasonable price. I think this would end up being the cheapest conversion due to engine and kit availability. They are also much lighter and smoother than a 4BD1.

My next preference if reliablity was the key concern (I think it should be) would be a Tdi.

I've never owned a TD5 (and probably never will) but would not be comfortable taking one into remote areas in a third world country.

[mcrover]

Interesting thread... again.

Having had a 200tdi & a TD5, I'd go TD5 every time.

Memory is a bit hazy now of tdi problems so I happily stand corrected on any of the following..

Timing belts will always be an issue. I had one walk & fray, picked up by Graeme Coopers on service, changed at 20,000 kms Too Tight, the wrong belt or the backing plate was warped or an Idler failed.....My money is on too tight.

I have no problem getting 80,000kms out of mine as do most people on here with Tdi's

I think I'd rather clean loom connections than change a belt in the bush! There really aren't any ECU issues other than the oil in the loom thing. Nonetheless, a Nanocom & a satphone is piece of mind. How much is Nanocom worth?

Not sure about tdis, but the TD5 will run on low cetane African diesel. Its a one-spec world engine. Bad fuel will kill both though. There is no reason you cant run a Tdi on low grade fuel, you lose economy and you lose power but they run fine and will do forever as long as it is deisel related....or something like it

And I know from experience, the Td5 will run for 3 days with the underseat area full of muddy water. Not to be recommended obviuosly, it was the fuel regulator that finally played up & stopped it.

As I understand it the military don't like TD5s, or any other modern EFI diesel, is that the loom interferes with HF radio. That's all. Fair enough, I wondered why they didnt use them and i have never said that I wouldnt buy one because the army didnt use it

Tdis need a mod to warn you of coolant loss. The std sensor is to low, & the damage is done when the dashboard light comes on. You dont need anything if you check your coolant and keep a nose out for burning coolant to let you know there is a leak

Tdis do head gaskets about every 150-160,000 kms. And replacement heads are getting very scarce. Absolute rubbish I am sorry to say, maybe some of the early ones had issues but mine has doen 300,000kms and the head has never been off and the engine hasnt been away from the trans in that whole time.

Tdis have a clutch thats too small, doesn't last long enough with any loads, towing etc. I wouldnt know as mines auto but I don know people who have had to do clutches in both, just ask Hiline about TD5 clutches or for that matter any TD5 manual owner, $2500 in parts to do a clutch due to having to replace the flywheel and all and they dont last long at all if abused as with all clutches

All the non-ECU Td5 issues that come to mind can be sorted before you go. Exhaust manifold, oil pump bolt, & head studs on early vehicles. Preventative maintenance applies to any vehicle.

That's enough from me..

Regards
Max P

Im not bagging the TD5 altogether, it is a good engine and as I have done lots of research in the matter I wouldnt be afraid of owning one myself as long as I could also get the diagnostic equipment.

The thing is, where not talking about me and my trips into the high country, where talking about an international trip in third world countries.

Im not knocking you Max and Im not bagging your choice ok :D

[isuzurover]

I would think that power on the steep roads in third world countries wont be an issue for consideration. The roads will likely be narrow and winding with terrifying drop-offs and you wont be able to go safely fast, even if you had more power. Chances are, you'll be stuck behind a slow moving, grossly underpowered, overloaded truck anyway.

Good point. One day in Guatemala we spent the whole day driving a gravel road where we could rarely go faster than 2nd. On most roads you drove slowly because of the bad weather (rained every arvo) or because of the numerous washouts and craters in the road (we had no wish to inadvertently drive off the side of a volcano).

Only on the US highways (and then only when we were at high altitude with a HUGE headwind) did we find the NA 4BD1 a bit lacking.

[DirtyDawg]

A Dutch Kiwi........don't we have border guards:D:D..mate I would recommend the TDi for simplicity.....not power but pure ease of use and general lack of electrics when very remote...

[dutchontoast]

One day in Guatemala we spent the whole day driving a gravel road where we could rarely go faster than 2nd. On most roads you drove slowly because of the bad weather (rained every arvo) or because of the numerous washouts and craters in the road (we had no wish to inadvertently drive off the side of a volcano).

Only on the US highways (and then only when we were at high altitude with a HUGE headwind) did we find the NA 4BD1 a bit lacking.

Yeah, i know power isn't that crucial, I did a 20,000 k round trip from holland to the eastern border of turkey and back in '95, vehicle: Citroen 2cv, which is powered by a 2 cylinder 600cc engine. Didn't miss a beat on the whole trip, it's the ultimate 'keep it simple stupid' vehicle… On the whole trip there was only one hill it couldn't get up, and that was due to lack of traction on the front wheels, solution: get the passenger to sit on the bonnet for improved traction!

[barney]

or you could have gone up the hill in reverse!

[dutchontoast]

or you could have gone up the hill in reverse!

Yes you are so right, I've never had to do that but it's a viable option especiallysince the gearing in reverse is lower then in 1st gear

[isuzurover]

Yeah, i know power isn't that crucial, I did a 20,000 k round trip from holland to the eastern border of turkey and back in '95, vehicle: Citroen 2cv, which is powered by a 2 cylinder 600cc engine. Didn't miss a beat on the whole trip, it's the ultimate 'keep it simple stupid' vehicle… On the whole trip there was only one hill it couldn't get up, and that was due to lack of traction on the front wheels, solution: get the passenger to sit on the bonnet for improved traction!

The 2CV is a great little car!!!

[mcrover]

The 2CV is a great little car!!!

x2 :D

[wally]

[QUOTE]I dont understand why people keep bringing up 300Tdi timing belts.

As long as they are done regularly (80,000kms) and are done properly they dont fail.

I had one fail at 69000km (from new).

[wally]

...and for what it's worth I'll put in another vote for the Tdi. I've owned Td5s and Tdis, and I certainly wouldn't be considering a Td5 for an undertaking like that. There's so much less to worry about with a Tdi. Buy one with a good history, make sure your timing belt's done, fit an engine temp alarm and chances are it's going to get you there.

[big guy]

I just searched car-sales and trading post.

There are plenty around for you to choose.

TD5 is great, if you buy it at the right price you can afford to get things fixed.
put on a adopter on fuel line to run an extra filter that takes care of water and other impurities etc.
Do same on oil side.

Tdi is also great, run same filters, as I said before, and motor being more simple vould mean less problems as we all said ten times.

Now go drive some and buy one. More you think more you worry.
So many of us drive 20-40000 km's a year and have no probs at all bar a CD skipping when going over a bump.

Just do it.
See which one you prefer.
Should something happen, relax and get it fixed.
Take a sattelite phone and all will be well for lifes little adventure.

GO gogogogogogogogogogogo.

Oh, keep us posted.

[bushrover]

Dutchy, please buy a TDi so I have a bigger range of much newer TD5 130's to choose from. :angel:

[Bigbjorn]

[quote=mcrover;832643]

I had one fail at 69000km (from new).

A former colleague who was then a senior chap at Land Rover Australia told me about three years ago to change them at 50,000 AND DON'T MISS (his emphasis).

[dutchontoast]

Now go drive some and buy one. More you think more you worry.
So many of us drive 20-40000 km's a year and have no probs at all bar a CD skipping when going over a bump.

Just do it.
See which one you prefer.
Should something happen, relax and get it fixed.
Take a sattelite phone and all will be well for lifes little adventure.

GO gogogogogogogogogogogo.

Oh, keep us posted.

Thanks big guy, I will get one and I will keep you posted, thanks again to all for good advice and words of encouragement

Kai

[mcrover]

[quote=mcrover;832643]

I had one fail at 69000km (from new).

And this is why they changed the timing cover, back plate, main tensioner and re-visited the torque setting for the belt tension.

This isnt new, just about all 300Tdis were done and if they havnt been done by now then it hasnt been driven as they just didnt last long without these mods.

99% of them were done under warrenty and the others were just lucky and not serviced by LR agents who changed them as a matter of course.

Timing belt intervals as spec'd by LR is 80'000kms I have asked their opinion and been told by Allranges (now closed), Deacons, Mornington prestige and Massaro's so I recon they would know.

Timing belt is now a non issue.

[Jitterbug]

I am currently overlanding in a 300tdi disco. Chose the 300 over the td5 because of the simplicity and the engine has been great although does overheat when we have big climbes.
The problem that we have come across is that the few dealers there are only have d2 and d3 bits in, non go back as far as the d1.

I guess with the 300 you might have a wait for parts at a dealer but at least it can be fixed by many mechanics.

We have done 30 000km in 3 months without any engine problems so far (only prop, gearbox, differential and axle (snapped in Syberia) have broken). :)

Hope this helps,

Dave
ExcellentAdventure (http://www.excellentadventure.co.uk)

[Bigbjorn]

[QUOTE=wally;834608]


Timing belt is now a non issue.


To me any engine with a rubber band is an engine to be avoided. The belts need to be replaced regularly, and the belts do fail.

Chains or gears don't.

[Wilbur]

Hi Kai,2004 Land Rover Defender 130 (4X4) 5 Speed M Dual Cab - eBay, Passenger Vehicles, Cars, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 31-Oct-08 12:42:39 AEDST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2004-Land-Rover-Defender-130-4X4-5-Speed-M-Dual-Cab_W0QQitemZ170257365603QQihZ007QQcategoryZ35227Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

This looks like beter value than the $28,000 one with a bit of rust!!

[mcrover]

[QUOTE=mcrover;835049]


To me any engine with a rubber band is an engine to be avoided. The belts need to be replaced regularly, and the belts do fail.

Chains or gears don't.

Well then any aussie delivered 130 is going to be out of the question then isnt it Brian.

Funny thing about timing belts, they are pretty much in 90% of all cars on the road these days but some people just dont like having to do a little maintenance.

Timing belt is a non issue it is a serviceable item and you change it at the required interval and set it up correctly there is no reason you will have a problem.

Gear train conversions were crap apparently in the 300Tdi and timing chains fail nearly as commonly as timing belts as well as they are noisy.

Theres negatives to everything, and not everyone want to drive a sidevalve V8.

[dutchontoast]

I am currently overlanding in a 300tdi disco. Chose the 300 over the td5 because of the simplicity and the engine has been great although does overheat when we have big climbes.
The problem that we have come across is that the few dealers there are only have d2 and d3 bits in, non go back as far as the d1.

I guess with the 300 you might have a wait for parts at a dealer but at least it can be fixed by many mechanics.

We have done 30 000km in 3 months without any engine problems so far (only prop, gearbox, differential and axle (snapped in Syberia) have broken

Only the prop, gearbox, diff and axle have broken? That's - encouraging dave! I only hope the defender hasn't got same gearbox, diff and axle as the disco...

>> EDIT: I've now read Dave's travel blog - it turns out he's been playing in the mud in Norway quite a bit… And had the original axle… diff and gearbox failure probably due to abuse during off roading in Norway… mud can cause havoc on any 4wd!

Does anyone care to comment on the overheating issue on long climbs? Go slower and keep the revs down comes to mind, any other suggestions? I suppose the outback has all the challenges you can throw at a defender, bar the long/steep climbs...

[weeds]

Only the prop, gearbox, diff and axle have broken? That's - encouraging dave! I only hope the defender hasn't got same gearbox, diff and axle as the disco...good chance

Does anyone care to comment on the overheating issue on long climbs? Go slower and keep the revs down comes to mind, any other suggestions? I suppose the outback has all the challenges you can throw at a defender, bar the long/steep climbs... if you cross the simpson desert you will have 1000+ short steep climbs.......


:D:D:D

[Psimpson7]

Funny thing about timing belts, they are pretty much in 90% of all cars on the road these days but some people just dont like having to do a little maintenance.

.


You just dont get it do you! So have sensors, and ecu's

[mcrover]

Only the prop, gearbox, diff and axle have broken? That's - encouraging dave! I only hope the defender hasn't got same gearbox, diff and axle as the disco...good chance

Does anyone care to comment on the overheating issue on long climbs? Go slower and keep the revs down comes to mind, any other suggestions? I suppose the outback has all the challenges you can throw at a defender, bar the long/steep climbs... if you cross the simpson desert you will have 1000+ short steep climbs.......


:D:D:D

As far as the axles and diffs goes, in a 300Tdi 130 it should have a Salsbury in the back but the same as the Disco in the front and there are stronger options that can be fitted and that would be part of my trip prep for a trip like this.

For long steep climbs you should use a lower gear so the engine isnt working so hard, if the revs are up the water pump is turning faster which may allow more flow through the engine but the main trick is to unload the engine.

[Bigbjorn]

[quote=Brian Hjelm;835610]

Well then any aussie delivered 130 is going to be out of the question then isnt it Brian.

Funny thing about timing belts, they are pretty much in 90% of all cars on the road these days but some people just dont like having to do a little maintenance.

Timing belt is a non issue it is a serviceable item and you change it at the required interval and set it up correctly there is no reason you will have a problem.

Gear train conversions were crap apparently in the 300Tdi and timing chains fail nearly as commonly as timing belts as well as they are noisy.

Theres negatives to everything, and not everyone want to drive a sidevalve V8.

Well, take it one item at a time.

Just because your estimate of 90% of cars now have them does not make this a good design feature.
The only reason for Gilmer belt cam drives is cheapness of manufacture. There is no benefit from this innovation to anyone else except maybe the parts and service departments of a dealership. There is no benefit to the owners and operators. Gilmer belt cam drives are an added item of maintenance, and an additional point of potential failure.

I have a County-Isuzu which has a gear driven camshaft and is not beholden to fragile electronic systems for propulsion.

I lived and worked in remote areas of outback Queensland and would never have an electronic belt driven vehicle in this service. The mind boggles at touring the more remote and dangerous parts of the third world in one. You could die.

I commenced an apprenticeship as a fitter-machinist in 1957 and spent the bulk of my working life, owning, operating, building, repairing, maintaining, selling cars, trucks, ships, mobile and stationary plant all over Australia. I know what works, what is reliable, and what is easily fixed and maintained in bad conditions. Simplicity & sturdiness are the buzz words. I have never had a timing chain or gear drive fail in any machine I owned or operated. I only ever replaced failed fibre timing gears on a few cars long ago. Otherwise I only ever replaced gear or chain cam drives on high hour/mileage major overhauls, or when buliding a competition engine. I repeat, belt drives fail.

As to not liking to do maintenance, replacing belts is an unecessary item of maintenance forced upon the owner by a cheap design. Try running a fleet of heavy prime movers in Western Queensland or the NT pulling multiple trailers in potholes and dust, each running 150,000-200,000+ k's per annum and you will soon learn about real maintenance. Up to your **** in oil, grease, red dust, livestock poo, mud in season, spare parts a week and a 1000 k's away. You don't need more maintenance.
This is not maintaining your Ascham/St.Margaret's metallic paint carpeted city 4WD, changing the belt every few years and maybe rotating the tyres.

[dutchontoast]

[quote=mcrover;835704]
Simplicity & sturdiness are the buzz words. … I repeat, belt drives fail…


Hi Brian - sounds like you know what you're talking about!

However, i'm confused… you advise against belt drives… which suggests you advise against TDI, which brings us to the TD5 engine… which has electronics… which is no good in the middle of nowhere… or is it? :-)

I don't really want to go to the expense of fitting an Isuzu engine in the 130… for one the resale value in the UK of a 130 with Isuzu engine is questionable…

Kai

[spudboy]

Hi Kai - I put up a separate post 3 or 4 days ago about a good book to read, but don't know if you'd seen it, so am doing an off topic link in this thread:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/65598-some-reading-dutchontoast-kai.html

Cheers
David

[bushrover]

Kai,
2 years ago I would have sounded like all the doom sayers and condemned the TD5, but like my original post I still believe it is a realistic alternative. You need to remember by the time you leave any TDi you buy is going to be at least 10 maybe 20 years old, if you can find a low mileage, one or two owner vehicle with known history, go for it, but dont rule out a late model TD5, far better chance of getting a vehicle that has a known history and by far the simplest - for you to repair - fuel system with a bit of basic knowledge. You will not need to find a mechanic who only has a cold chisel and hammer to repair your vehicle. With a Nanocom (which is cheap) and knowledge of the simple electronic monitoring system and what each component does and doesn't do you will have no problem doing your own diagnostics. Bottom line, forget about engine types, buy the best value vehicle with the most honest history and lowest milage.
By the way my Isuzu County did a head gasket (I didn't know full history when I bought it) and subsequently bent a conrod and cracked the block, hence the reason I have a TD5.

Rick

[dutchontoast]

Thanks David! I'm getting it - looks like a fantastic read…

Kai

[Bigbjorn]

[quote=Brian Hjelm;836058]

Hi Brian - sounds like you know what you're talking about!

However, i'm confused… you advise against belt drives… which suggests you advise against TDI, which brings us to the TD5 engine… which has electronics… which is no good in the middle of nowhere… or is it? :-)

I don't really want to go to the expense of fitting an Isuzu engine in the 130… for one the resale value in the UK of a 130 with Isuzu engine is questionable…

Kai

Amongst the reasons I bought the County-Isuzu are that it does not have a rubber band and does not have electronic systems. I had such a doing with modern cars and electronic failures that I cried enough. My late model Falcon ute has been tilt trayed to the dealership on no less than eight occasions with disabling electronic failures. Once it stopped on a station track in far Western Queensland and had to be towed (78 k's) to the homestead and thne put on a truck back to Winton. Call me a Luddite if you i will, but the Isuzu 4BD1's are almost perpetual in their reliability and longevity, and will probably dispute control of our planet with the cockroaches after the nuclear holocaust.

[dutchontoast]

[quote=dutchontoast;836073]
Call me a Luddite if you i will, but the Isuzu 4BD1's are almost perpetual in their reliability and longevity, and will probably dispute control of our planet with the cockroaches after the nuclear holocaust.

That sounds like a very compelling argument, more so as one can apparently get parts for a 4BD1 diesel engine anyway we're going on this trip… It's a shame land rover never considered fitting such a wonderful engine as standard in their defenders, as the cost of fitting one, in Australia at least, is so high!

[Psimpson7]

I would imagine if they did fit one they wouldnt have sold any in europe which is the major market.

Weight, cost, emissions (at least since say 98), Lack of road performance (real or assumed) noise, and also the tax issues in certain european countries with engines over 2.5l

cheers.
Pete

[mcrover]

Brian,

Im not disputing your qualifications or knowledge but I think you are negating to realise that I am a qualified motor mechanic, I did my time on diesel machinery and tractors as well as golf course equipment and BUSES.......thats right, I still do what you did and my maintained busses was traveling all over the country with elderly people on bourd seeing the back blocks of our country.

The only failure I had was a wheel bearing in a trailer........even the simplest parts can fail.

The main reason for going to belts may have been cost but puting a rubber band on the front does shut them up a bit but to an Isuzu owner I doubt that that would be high on the list of priorities.

My first suggestion was to put an Isuzu in one if you bother going back through my posts and I even backed up that they would more than likely be the easiest to get parts for anywhere in the world but Im pretty sure that D.O.T. has made up his mind and has decided against the conversion.....mainly because he has said it numerous times.

Now getting back to the rubber band, Im not sure how many Km's that they will be doing but if it takes them 2 years or even a year to clock up 60 to 80k then they will have plenty of time to organise and plan to do the little bit of maintenance in changing the belt.

It doesnt have to be done by a mechainc, anyone with half a mechanically sound mind could do it and there are few other than standard tools that would need to be used to do it.

If it is done as part of the trip prep then it is likely they will not have to do it again before they sell the thing.

If it is done right then it shouldnt fail, about as much chance as a 4BD1 spitting a head gasket I suppose or maybe chewing out engine mounts or rattling everything lose so it falls off while driving down the road.

I do agree that the timing belts on the 300Tdi is a PITA and I would prefer not to have it but it is a nessesary evil and that brings me to Psimpson7.

As far as Nessesary evils........there are way too many on a TD5 IMHO for a trip like this.

The more I learn and read about them the more I understand what you guys are on about but even if I were to upgrade the Disco to a TD5 Deefa 130 my self my spares list for everyday driving would be fairly extensive and if I were to plan a trip like this......no matter how much I liked the power etc I still wouldnt have one.

Not only do I not think it is an appropriate engine for the job at hand but I think and I may be wrong but I dont think they run the same diffs as the 300Tdi do they, or was that just in the later Deefa 110's?

As far as low mileage goes, who cares, the vehicle will be trip preped, not just driven off the lot and on to the the world, there will be hundreds of inspections dont on all componants before they go (or I would hope so anyway) so why is the milage so important.

As long as it is in as close to perfect mechanical condition at the time of purchase so the least amount of money has to be spent in that area as possible but no matter what car they get Im petty sure it will be pulled apart and put back together again to make sure they will be needing only the minimum amount of work while on the trip.

I really think some people have lost the plot here a little, No I dont like TD5 Discos but I havnt bagged out a TD5 Deefa that I can remember, as far as an electronic controlled engine goes they made it as simple as possible but the TD5 in the Disco has too many control modules, sensors etc all tied into eachother and if you were clued into how it all worked then with Nanocom (which no one has said how much it costs just that it's not expensive) you can sort out most problems by removing codes........Deefa, the worst Ive heard that happens (other than the standard TD5 crap) is the central locking likes to lock you out sometimes.....which I would imagine would be a PITA in the middle of Pakistan with people shooting at you.

KISS is the key as has been said over and over again but not eveything has to have an Isuzu in it to be good and in this thread at least I havnt put down the TD5 I have just said that it is not the engine for the job........WHICH WAS THE QUESTION.......and I see no reason why I should have been flamed for saying that or for having a veiw that the 300Tdi is the best of a bad bunch so to speak.

Rant over, if you cant read through the whole thread then try not to comment on it, I have tried to put it straight forward and simple but I know that the skimmers will read between the lines as per normal and not bother with the whole thing because it's too long.

So, Im Sorry :p

[dutchontoast]

I would imagine if they did fit one they wouldnt have sold any in europe which is the major market.

Weight, cost, emissions (at least since say 98), Lack of road performance (real or assumed) noise, and also the tax issues in certain european countries with engines over 2.5l

cheers.
Pete

Which is exactly why it makes it so hard to sell a truck like this in the UK, which I'd really like to do as their resell value over there is better then here, plus it saves me the cost of shipping it back…

Also like the idea of the economy of the TDI…

[Psimpson7]

Good post there Mcrover. (see I am not arguing!:))

Even I can see that having an engine that has no electronics is a good thing for very remote travel. The issue I have is that you cant buy one anymore and therefore if you want a modern 4wd there is no other option.

I think every possible engine choice is going to have positives and negatives, and you have to look at it in conjucntion with the other possible dramas you could get in a car of that age.

I would, myself prefer to take a low milages td5 defender over a high mileage Tdi one, especially if you have only just bought it.

I think this is just going to go round and round and the final desicion will be one the OP has to make and stand by.

The spares issue is a real pain. I feel I carry a comprehensive kit and then we stuffed in a rad in the middle of nowhere. Didnt have one of those, and thats the problem I think. What ever you carry, you wont need, and if you dont take it you will need it.

You point about d2 bcu systems is a good one. The Defender is a lot ore simple than the Dicovery and all the electronics are limited to the engine which is nice.

Dont think I hate the Tdi, I dont, my brother has a 300tdi D1 and it is faultlessly reliable, (apart from the odd waterpump) and really a very good car. I wont deny that, but I really think the OP needs to look beyond the engine and buy the complete car.

Lets face it there is much more chance of finding a better condition td5 than a tdi.

Rgds
Peter.

[isuzurover]

Weight, cost, emissions (at least since say 98), Lack of road performance (real or assumed) noise, and also the tax issues in certain european countries with engines over 2.5l

Weight - sure, no contest.

Cost? The 4BD1 (and later replacements) was produced in HUGE quantities, so if anything the cost of engines (and engine development) would have been less.

Emissions - as above, later 4BD1 replacements could have been used.

(lack of) Road performance??? You have me there. Sure, a Tdi/TD5 has a bit better top end on the highway (thanks to the turbo), but the 4BD1 wins everywhere else. Add a turbo and there is no contest.

Noise - sure - a TD5 is quieter than a 4BD1, but a 4HE1 is quieter than a 4BD1 as well.

I agree on the tax issue, but they could have offered a small ISUZU or IVECO engine for those markets...

Anyway, all this is academic, because, as you say, it didn't happen...

Duchontoast - IF you want a 4BD1(T), AND it has to be a dual cab/130, then it may be an easier proposition to get hold of a 120" ute (if you can) and put a 130 rear body on it. A 130 has a 127" wheelbase, so I am sure it won't be a huge effort - and probably cheaper than an engine conversion. Plus, when you sell it, you have a standard drivetrain with a modified body.

Of course, a civvie or military 6x6 with a factory 4BD1T is another option?

[abaddonxi]

I'd suspect that once you'd budgeted on a vehicle, and a 4BD1, and conversion, you'd be better off buying a Td5 and comprehensive electronic spares and a diagnostic computer.

And you'd probably walk away with change.

Cheers
Simon

[Bigbjorn]

Just buy one of the very good County-Isuzus that are around. Why do you need a 130?

[Jitterbug]

Only the prop, gearbox, diff and axle have broken? That's - encouraging dave! I only hope the defender hasn't got same gearbox, diff and axle as the disco...

>> EDIT: I've now read Dave's travel blog - it turns out he's been playing in the mud in Norway quite a bit… And had the original axle… diff and gearbox failure probably due to abuse during off roading in Norway… mud can cause havoc on any 4wd!

Does anyone care to comment on the overheating issue on long climbs? Go slower and keep the revs down comes to mind, any other suggestions? I suppose the outback has all the challenges you can throw at a defender, bar the long/steep climbs...

With hindsight maybe the off-roading wasn't the best idea but it was fun at the time and we did take it easier than most... honest :angel:

[dutchontoast]

Brian,
…Im not disputing your qualifications or knowledge but I think you are negating to realise that I am a qualified motor mechanic, I did my time on diesel machinery and tractors as well as golf course equipment and BUSES... KISS is the key as has been said over and over again but not eveything has to have an Isuzu in it to be good and in this thread at least I havnt put down the TD5 I have just said that it is not the engine for the job........WHICH WAS THE QUESTION.......and I see no reason why I should have been flamed for saying that or for having a veiw that the 300Tdi is the best of a bad bunch so to speak... :p

Dear Brian, and McRover - your passion for this issue is almost causing my mac to overheat… i think i need to install extra water cooling for the cpu…

You know what, you are both right, for different reasons, so let's not quibble about it any more, please? :p

McRover - yes, it IS about buying the whole car, and there are people that travelled from france to oz with TD5 without problems, and we CAN get any spare part couriered anywhere in the world, and we're in no rush… so things CAN get fixed along the way… we actually don't need reliability of a military degree, although it would be nice...

An earlier poster put me on to a fully kitted out 2003 130, chipped (130kw) with everything one could possibly need, and then some, incl. OME all round, winch, LR tank, lights, hd springs with 2" lift, cruise contol, snorkel, dual battery, front and rear air locks, reversing camera, 16" steel rims + 2nd spare, UHF radio, all this AND a second hand tray-on camper, similar to the one we were going to buy in combination with a 130 in the first place, in other words, pretty much the exact vehicle + kit we'd want for the big trip.

It's just a matter of deciding if we're happy to go for the TD5 engine!

[dutchontoast]

Just buy one of the very good County-Isuzus that are around. Why do you need a 130?
Why Defender 130 for the big trip? The name of the thread (i know, it's a few pages long now) - the 130 takes the tray-on camper, and wife and 2 children.

The 110 only takes roof tent or trailer, we're going tray-on, creature comforts keeps the kids happy, means family happy :-) Don't want to tow in India… Or pay for shipping a trailer as well as a car…

[spudboy]

An earlier poster put me on to a fully kitted out 2003 130, chipped (130kw) with everything one could possibly need, and then some, incl. OME all round, winch, LR tank, lights, hd springs with 2" lift, cruise contol, snorkel, dual battery, front and rear air locks, reversing camera, 16" steel rims + 2nd spare, UHF radio, all this AND a second hand tray-on camper, similar to the one we were going to buy in combination with a 130 in the first place, in other words, pretty much the exact vehicle + kit we'd want for the big trip.



Sounds like an excellent starting base unit for sure. How much do they want for it?

[dutchontoast]

Sounds like an excellent starting base unit for sure. How much do they want for it?

A lot, but then, kitting out any 2003 130 and adding a trayon would cost a lot, in fact i would go as far as saying that kitting out a late model TDI and adding a trayon would cost - a lot - speaking in riddles as I'd like to keep this one to myself for now :-)

[mcrover]

Dear Brian, and McRover - your passion for this issue is almost causing my mac to overheat… i think i need to install extra water cooling for the cpu…

You know what, you are both right, for different reasons, so let's not quibble about it any more, please? :p

McRover - yes, it IS about buying the whole car, and there are people that travelled from france to oz with TD5 without problems, and we CAN get any spare part couriered anywhere in the world, and we're in no rush… so things CAN get fixed along the way… we actually don't need reliability of a military degree, although it would be nice...

An earlier poster put me on to a fully kitted out 2003 130, chipped (130kw) with everything one could possibly need, and then some, incl. OME all round, winch, LR tank, lights, hd springs with 2" lift, cruise contol, snorkel, dual battery, front and rear air locks, reversing camera, 16" steel rims + 2nd spare, UHF radio, all this AND a second hand tray-on camper, similar to the one we were going to buy in combination with a 130 in the first place, in other words, pretty much the exact vehicle + kit we'd want for the big trip.

It's just a matter of deciding if we're happy to go for the TD5 engine!

dutchontoast, it's your call in the end and I'd be perfectly happy with that my self but you asked for my opinion and thats all I gave.

As far as Brian goes, I was just reacting to his reaction to my comment reguarding timing belts which was just rubbish when put up against what can happen and does to electronic controlled engines or for that matter Isuzu's.

Good luck on your trip anyway, it sounds like something that will be fantastic and I wish you the best of luck and reliability.

[abaddonxi]

Check out Mulgo's conversion of his 130 to a camper.

mulgo - a land rover enthusiast - Sydney - Australia (http://www.mulgo.com.au/)

http://move.to/vida - benin (http://www.flueckiger.net/vida/vidaontour/equipment/lr130/conversion/FrameSet.htm)

Cheers
Simon

[nomadickiwi]

Hi Kai
I am an Irish/Kiwi but have been living in the U.K for last 11 yrs. I have been a diesel mech for the last 20 years working on all manner of trucks/plant etc and most of the breakdowns on the electronic control engines were sensors of one type or another, so for your trip I'll join the 300Tdi camp:D. I have owned 300 Disco for last 6 yrs, have built a 130 CSW with a v8 lpg as an overlander because of the extra space but sold it because of running costs. It also let me down in Germany one year (electronic ign), the only part I didn't replace.:(You probably have made your purchase by now but its been a great read this thread,very informative. By the way I have bought a 300 defender which I hope to bring to Oz next year house sale permitting.
Have a great trip:cool:
Al

[C H T]

Kai

For what its worth:

1. For remote area/third world travel you need an engine that will tolerate, as far as possible, poor quality fuel. A TD5 will not tolerate poor quality fuel and will therefore be much more likely to leave you stranded. The 300 TDi is more tolerant of poor fuel and is much less likely to leave you stranded.
2. I have driven well into the hundreds of thousand of kilometres in 300TDi s and have never been stranded. I have a Defender (ex 300 TDi) to which I fitted an Isuzu 4BD1T because we do a lot of remote area travel. The reasons for fitting the Isuzu were as follows: Simpler more basic fuel injection pump which is very tolerant of poor quality fuel; more capacity which reduces the stress on the engine and gives much more low down torque improving driveability in heavy going; greater reliability - the Isuzu is a truck engine that will do a million kms between overhauls; parts availability - parts are readily available worldwide; robust ancilliaries (the biggest weakness with the TDi is the water pump and the power steering pump (I have had both fail well inside what would be considered normal service limits).

For your trip I would strongly suggest avoiding the TD5, buy the best 300TDi 130 you can find - overhaul the fuel injection system, fit new genuine waterpump and power steering pump and take one of each as spares; overhaul or replace the cylinder head with a good quality new one (I had problems with the cylinder head on the 300 TDi before I replaced it with the Isuzu). Set up properly and left in standard tune the 300 will happily do the job.

My comments are based on extensive experience in the bush, travelling without other vehicles, always fully laden and without ever having had a breakdown.

If you would like to discuss matters further PM me and I will give you my phone number

Christopher

[Slunnie]

And also remember the quality of the fuel, I'm sure a TD5 would just love a shandy of diesel, kerosene and god only knows what else! The military never used TD5's for a reason...................GO THE TDI!
The TD5 was tested on Kero and the injectors had no problems running on Kero. During the design phase they wanted to make sure it would run on the worst possible fuels.

I haven't read the 9 preceding pages here though the following are my opinions....

Isuzu: Really good strong engine, but its a long trip to be putting up with the high level of noise and high level of vibration from the motor. At idle you wont stop anything from rattling. It is a very strong motor in terms of durability and its pulling power.


Tdi: A very basic motor and despite what people say they are so grosely underpowered it's not funny. I know some people say that they have all the power that they need, and that may be true but it is nice to be able to overtake, not fall out of the turbos power band and arrive at the days destination sometime that week. With a laden 130 you will need a certain degree of power and flexibility and there is not a lot of it from this motor. I think these motors are also time bombs. The timing belts in them dont have a long life and need to replaced regularly and a friend had his engines internals crunched when this happened well before the expected life of the belt. If you get one of these, then put a new belt in it before you leave.


Td5: More complex that the Tdi and Isuzu and they have more power and drivability. This motor has 2 achillies... one is the ECU. The ECU itself is very resilient and dont seem to fail much, but it is located in a low position. If you're wading then either dont stop in the water or have the ECU relocated up high. If you do drown the ECU the engine will stop. When it drys out again or you clean the mud out of them, then you are right to go. I have seen breathers fitted to these to prevent this problem. The other problem is oil in the injector loom. Fit a new loom before you leave (not expensive) or if you do get oil in the loom, then take a can of spray electrical cleaner to clean out the plug - signs of this problem are a misfire.

[PAT303]

There's no shortage of opinions here,timebombs,electric gremlins,overheating,no spares etc.I would like to comment but my home serviced V8 Disco thats full of electrics and my underpowered Tdi with a timing belt that has 406,000 faultless k's thats been all over Australia need thier weekly fluid checks.Sorry I'm being sarcastic,having travelled more than most in outback Oz,in the above underpowered Tdi that overtakes without a problem I can say that it doesn't matter what you choose,99% of the problems are caused by lack of servicing or plain ignorance.Overheating is very,very common over here,so is flogged uni's,cooked auto's the list goes on.I would not hesitate to take my defender were your going but I would spend the money before I left making it right and having the spares to keep it going,too many people worry about proper maintenance after the vehicle has broken down leaving them stranded ''I don't know why it happened,It's never broken down before'',I wish I had a dollar'. Pat

[Slunnie]

Yep,

There are no guarantees though good regular specialist servicing is the best you can have done.

In reality, all 3 motors will do the trick and more than likely not give problems.

[Slunnie]

An earlier poster put me on to a fully kitted out 2003 130, chipped (130kw) with everything one could possibly need, and then some, incl. OME all round, winch, LR tank, lights, hd springs with 2" lift, cruise contol, snorkel, dual battery, front and rear air locks, reversing camera, 16" steel rims + 2nd spare, UHF radio, all this AND a second hand tray-on camper, similar to the one we were going to buy in combination with a 130 in the first place, in other words, pretty much the exact vehicle + kit we'd want for the big trip.

It's just a matter of deciding if we're happy to go for the TD5 engine!
I do run a chipped and intercooled TD5 Discovery and happily use it for heavy remote work, but I would recommend that on a big tour with a heavy truck such as the 130 when loaded that you dont up the chip. It brings extra heat into the engine when the additional power is being used. With the extra weight you may very well run the engine hot. The cooling system is excellent in them and the engine wont overheat, but the exhaust gasses do go hot which can cause exhaust manifold warping.

[1103.9TDI]

It's been almost three months since dutchontoast's original post, after all the expert advice, I bet he's gone and bought a Landcruiser:eek::D:wasntme:

[justinc]

It's been almost three months since dutchontoast's original post, after all the expert advice, I bet he's gone and bought a Landcruiser:eek::D:wasntme:

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p


good one Gerry!:D

JC

[spudboy]

Probably still reading Tom Sheppard's "Expedition" book. It's about 2" thick.

He had his eye on a 130 up in Brisbane with a camper tray arrangement already nicely set up by the previous owner.