my old girl wont start...

[series3]

loaded up the old girl today for a trip out to the tip, started her up, she ticked over but i didnt have enough choke so she conked out. went to try again, but the alternator (i think, the clyindrical shaped metal piece on the LHS with two cords running out of it) just lets out a loud ticking sound instead of the engine actually turning over.

apparently this 2.25 petrol series 3 has this as an inherent problem, happening a few times before in really bad times.

i have tried shorting out the alternator, and giving the starter motor a good tap, but to no avail. what is a good remedy, short of replacing the faulty parts?

and if this has happened more than once in the last few years, is there a common cause of this? i have noticed that the cables leading around through the firewall etc on that side are not completely secure, perhaps it is that.

I have not got the strongest sense of mechanics etc, but i am willing to learn as much as i can, so anything that anyone has to throw at me would be greatly appreciated

[vnx205]

Others will be able to give you a more detailed response, but before you start doing things that sound a bit risky, like shorting things out, I will offer a couple of basic possibilities.

The clicking is probably the starter motor.

It clicks if there is not enough power reaching it from the battery to make it work properly.

The most common reasons for that are simple things like dirty or loose connections on the battery terminals or poor connections on other wires to the starter motor.

Check that connections are clean and tight.

[series3]

thanks VNX,

I'm pretty sure that the clicking is coming from the alternator though, i can hear it click. it is by no means old, so i beleive the problem is somewhere else.

the cabling does need a bit of attention though i think.

[Blknight.aus]

for starters...

remove and tape up both the wires from the alternator, and that eliminates that the only thing that could be happening with the alternator for starting is if its got something cactus inside and a winding is pulling on something like a magnet (that being what they are and all)

now remove the power cable from the back of the startermotor. tape that up too.

next take a known good battery (or park up alongside the rover a car with minimalistic engine tech so you can use the battery from that) and a pair of jumper leads and hook the negative up to the good battery and grab a good earth, theres a couple of ally protrusions on the bottom that are great for jump start earths when your doing this.

now hook up the positive cable to the back of the starter where the cable came from and then hook up the positive to the battery when you hook up you should get a nice fat spark and then the engine should start to wind over and lurch the rover forwards cause you forgot to put it in nuetral. If your really unlucky it will also start and proceed to run through your house.

if it doesnt wind over now dont panic the series III has a magic bit of kit that lets you start the engine with only 6v on the battery, its called the crank handle.

once you get it turning then its only fault finding for spark and fuel from the carby....

that any help?

[series3]

thanks Blknight,

ill get into it and ill let you know how i go

[dandlandyman]

Clicking? In time with when you turn the key to start it? That should be the solenoid working. It can be a 1-2" cylinder shaped thing, bolted usually to the battery carrier/air cleaner mount. If that's what's clicking, it is working. But main current from here to the starter motor isn't reaching its ultimate destination. Check all terminal fixings.

The alternator - the alloy cylinder shaped thing about 5" in diameter, runs off the fan belt - has bugger all to do with starting.

Hope this helps.

Dan.
69 2A 88" pet4, 74 3 109" pet4, 68 2B FC pet6.

[87County]

....if you can get someone to show you how...

they can be dead easy to start with the crank handle...:)

[JDNSW]

....if you can get someone to show you how...

they can be dead easy to start with the crank handle...:)

A word of warning on crank starting -

This (2.25 petrol) engine will, if in reasonable tune, start easily with the crank handle. But there are a couple of points

1. Always, Always, keep your thumb on the same side of the handle as the fingers, and pull, not push - if it fires before Top Dead Centre, the fact that you are hanging onto the handle will not stop the engine turning backwards; if you hold it as directed it will just pull out of your hand, and if you move the hand quickly enough it will not hit the back of your hand on the way round. If you have the thumb on the other side, the same will happen except that in pulling out of your hand it will break the thumb.
Similarly, if pushing down, it may have to break your wrist to pull free.

2. Hand priming using the priming lever on the pump will make hand starting easier.

3. Making sure the ignition timing is correct is a good move.

John

[87County]

A word of warning on crank starting -

This (2.25 petrol) engine will, if in reasonable tune, start easily with the crank handle. But there are a couple of points

1. Always, Always, keep your thumb on the same side of the handle as the fingers, and pull, not push - if it fires before Top Dead Centre, the fact that you are hanging onto the handle will not stop the engine turning backwards; if you hold it as directed it will just pull out of your hand, and if you move the hand quickly enough it will not hit the back of your hand on the way round. If you have the thumb on the other side, the same will happen except that in pulling out of your hand it will break the thumb.
Similarly, if pushing down, it may have to break your wrist to pull free.

2. Hand priming using the priming lever on the pump will make hand starting easier.

3. Making sure the ignition timing is correct is a good move.

John

yep ... all good & well warned John, that's why I qualified my short note with something like "get someone to show you how...", figuring that being correctly shown is easier than trying to set it all down in writing :)

regards - Laurie

[series3]

Thanks dandlandyman, it is the solenoid. goes to show i really know what im talking about :D.

i had a look at all my terminal fixings, they seem fine enough. there is a bit of mud and dirt around, but the terminals on the battery, solenoid and starter motor are all (what i think to be) satisfactory. however, the solenoid just keeps clicking away.

i have heard that a faulty solenoid can hold onto charge and not send it out, is this common?

would i be right to beleieve that the fact that the solenoid is clicking is evidence that my battery is okay?

about cranking, breaking a thumb or wrist sounds like something i would do; might wait for a more experienced hand to oversee that. just out of interest, is it a clockwise or counter clockwise motion to crank it?

[87County]

..........

about cranking, breaking a thumb or wrist sounds like something i would do; might wait for a more experienced hand to oversee that. just out of interest, is it a clockwise or counter clockwise motion to crank it?

clockwise when out at the front, looking at the front of the car....(same direction as the fan) (the handle will only engage one way)

[JDNSW]

Thanks dandlandyman, it is the solenoid. goes to show i really know what im talking about :D.

i had a look at all my terminal fixings, they seem fine enough. there is a bit of mud and dirt around, but the terminals on the battery, solenoid and starter motor are all (what i think to be) satisfactory. however, the solenoid just keeps clicking away.

i have heard that a faulty solenoid can hold onto charge and not send it out, is this common?

would i be right to beleieve that the fact that the solenoid is clicking is evidence that my battery is okay?

about cranking, breaking a thumb or wrist sounds like something i would do; might wait for a more experienced hand to oversee that. just out of interest, is it a clockwise or counter clockwise motion to crank it?

The clicking solenoid is almost certainly the battery or connections rather than the solenoid. If the solenoid is faulty (it happens, but not often), you usually get a single click but no action from the starter, although it can be the starter or the wiring between the starter and solenoid. if there is not even a click it will be the solenoid or more likely the ignition switch or wiring or a dead flat battery.

A click-click-click when the starter is operated means that as soon as the starter draws current the voltage drops low enough that the solenoid disengages, but then as the voltage rises, the cycle is repeated until you release the key. The reason for the voltage drop will be either a faulty battery (my problem a couple of weeks ago), a flat battery (due to lack of use, leaving something on, or a faulty alternator), or, most likely, a faulty connection, typically one on the actual battery.

This situation can be confirmed by the following tests -
Switch the headlights on (if they are dim, problem is battery or connections) - operate the starter. If the headlights stay bright, it is a solenoid or starter fault or the wiring between them. If the lights dim badly, it is connections or battery. Immediately after trying this, feel the temperature of the connections at the battery and on the solenoid to try and locate the problem. Another likely problem is the earth connection. if the negative of the battery does not go to the engine, there will be an earth strap somewhere between the engine and chassis with a potentially faulty connection at both ends.

John

[Blknight.aus]

once youve established that the battery is ok...

grab a nice shiney spanner about ph 15/16thsish and then just short out the 2 big screw terminals on the solenoid.....

oh make sure its out of gear first...

[series3]

The clicking solenoid is almost certainly the battery or connections rather than the solenoid. If the solenoid is faulty (it happens, but not often), you usually get a single click but no action from the starter, although it can be the starter or the wiring between the starter and solenoid. if there is not even a click it will be the solenoid or more likely the ignition switch or wiring or a dead flat battery.


the solenoid does only click once with each turn of the key, no more. I checked the connections, and they seem strong. i couldnt get the connection off the starter motor to clean it up, so i suppose that is good enough so it's not going anywhere. The wiring itself looks fine and is in a nice thick insulation, albeit a bit dirty.

I have tried shorting the solenoid out with a spanner on the chassis, a nice thick spark comes out of the left-hand side wiring of the solenoid, but not the right... is this indicative of a faulty solenoid?

Im not with the car at the moment, so ill have to let you know when i get back to her.

Cheers,

[Blknight.aus]

assuming that your shorting the terminals to each other and not to earth.. yes thats normal, its even normal if your trying to short the terminals to earth...

the quality and duration of the spark will give you some clues as to where the problem can lie...

if you get a sad little spark youve got connectivity but a bad connection somewhere in the circut (which includes all the bits inside the startermotor)

if you get a nice fat spark that then dies off you have crud in the brushes/stator contacts OR you have wet brushes

if you can immitate arc welding with the thing then you have a seized starter motor

all of this assumes that you have a good battery.

if you use only the points of the open ended side of the spanner to bridge the 2 large terminals of the solenoid and you hold the spanned on with your fingers on the other side of the points pushing them onto the terminals AND you can hold your fingers there for more than 10 seconds you have a high resistance somewhere in the loop. (or a flat battery)


can you get the crank to move by hand? (using either the crank handle or the old push on the fan belt and yank the fan trick)

[series3]

[QUOTE=Blknight.aus;838665] if you get a nice fat spark that then dies off you have crud in the brushes/stator contacts OR you have wet brushes

all of this assumes that you have a good battery.[QUOTE]

this could explain it, i got her a bit muddy a couple of weeks ago and gave the undercarraige a good blast to clear the mud out, i just presumed that the starter motor would be tightly sealed enough to be waterproof... perhaps i was wrong.

Shorting out the alternator gives a good spark that last a while, then dies away, only to spark up nicely again when the solenoid fills back up with charge.

may have to look at getting the starter motor replaced/refurbished?

[dandlandyman]

I think the first thing you should do is buy yourself a test light. They're not at all expensive. Trying to find a contact problem by shorting it out to see a spark isn't my idea of good practice. Then get yourself an "apprentice" to try starting it while you check for power all along the way. It won't tell you exactly what's wrong, but it will help isolate the faulty component.

A friend of mine had a TEA20 Ferguson which suddenly decided not to start. His diagnosis was to replace the starter switch in the top of the gearbox. Cost: about $50. Using a test light, I found the terminal into the starter motor loose and dirty. Cost: free.

Dan.
69 2A 88" pet4, 74 3 109" pet4, 68 2B FC pet6.

[Rangier Rover]

[QUOTE=Blknight.aus;838665] if you get a nice fat spark that then dies off you have crud in the brushes/stator contacts OR you have wet brushes

all of this assumes that you have a good battery.[QUOTE]

this could explain it, i got her a bit muddy a couple of weeks ago and gave the undercarraige a good blast to clear the mud out, i just presumed that the starter motor would be tightly sealed enough to be waterproof... perhaps i was wrong.

Shorting out the alternator gives a good spark that last a while, then dies away, only to spark up nicely again when the solenoid fills back up with charge.

may have to look at getting the starter motor replaced/refurbished?
By the the way this post reads you may need some help. If you keep shorting the alternator you will fry the feed to battery. I suspect the battery is to weak to do it anyway. Solinoids do not store charge. If you say it builds up like that it is likely your battery is not 100% As said before turn headlights on and see if the go dull and slowly recover of chop out and come back instant usually after shaking conections. If you have a poor conection they will heat up after a while. Starter can be tested carefully with direct jumper lead hook up from a fresh battery. OUT OF GEAR< HAND BRAKE ON AND PUT BLOCKS IN FRONT OF TYRES. (OR make sure third party insurance is valid)If you do this Conect + (wire to solinoid on neg earth set up)on starter to + on battery. Now conect - on battery and touch it on to engine block away from fuel or carby. It will spark. Do not do it at battery as can explode The starter will spin up if ok. We then work our way along as may be as simple as bad earth. Sorry to be so blunt but we don't like nice people getting hurt:) Cheers Tony

[Blknight.aus]

I dont know what hes doing at the alternator but bypassing the starter solenoid is a common trick....

excluding a flat battery theres only 3 things that routinely go wrong with the 2.25 starting system

the solenoid

the startermotor main power post and brushes

earth connections.

IME about half the time its the solenoid especially when the customer comes in with any line that leads along the line of "well its been getting slower and slower to crank and takes longer and longer to start"

[Rangier Rover]

I dont know what hes doing at the alternator but bypassing the starter solenoid is a common trick....

excluding a flat battery theres only 3 things that routinely go wrong with the 2.25 starting system

the solenoid

the startermotor main power post and brushes

earth connections.

IME about half the time its the solenoid especially when the customer comes in with any line that leads along the line of "well its been getting slower and slower to crank and takes longer and longer to start"
I've been around series all my life and you are spot on there.:) I'm just not sure this guy should be playing with electrics in some ways for safety sake thats all.
Tony

[JDNSW]

I dont know what hes doing at the alternator but bypassing the starter solenoid is a common trick....

excluding a flat battery theres only 3 things that routinely go wrong with the 2.25 starting system

the solenoid

the startermotor main power post and brushes

earth connections.

IME about half the time its the solenoid especially when the customer comes in with any line that leads along the line of "well its been getting slower and slower to crank and takes longer and longer to start"

Actually, you've missed the most common problem (possibly because it does not apply in this case) - bendix gear sticking, usually due to someone putting oil or grease on it, but sometimes just rusty. Not common, but I have struck the end bush chopped out allowing the motor to pole.

John

[Rangier Rover]

Actually, you've missed the most common problem (possibly because it does not apply in this case) - bendix gear sticking, usually due to someone putting oil or grease on it, but sometimes just rusty. Not common, but I have struck the end bush chopped out allowing the motor to pole.

John
I've also had them spit the C clip, bendix come off and get wedged in ring gear.
I'm sure some one will think of more.

Tony

[Aaron IIA]

Not common, but I have struck the end bush chopped out allowing the motor to pole.

John

This happened to me. It presented as being very sluggish to turn over and start. I thought a flat battery, as the lights would also dim. Upon inspection, the starter cables were getting hot, which indicates a large current drain. This told me the the battery was good, as it could supply large quantities of current. So it had to be the starter motor polling out.

When the starter motor was polling out, it was effectively a short circuit (an electric motor not turning is electrically a short circuit).

Aaron.