TD5 Billowing Black Smoke

[RoverMan]

Hi All,

Here is what is happening:

IF you acceleraste to 2000 - 2250 RPM I lose all acceleration, this is followed by 1-2 seconds of white/grey smoke which is then proceeded by thick black smoke which continues to bellow out until car returns to idle.

TD5 starts and Idles fine, there are no warning lights and all systems checks start and no errors dispaly. We have checked the Turbo and the turbo spins and there is no oil leaks with in the Turbo. Is this a blockage in the Fuel pump or return? or maybe and injector pump? I am really lost with this.

Jake

[Psimpson7]

could it also be a restriction in the air input, either a blocked filter or filter box, or collapsed intercooler hoses?

[RoverMan]

We have check the intercooler hoses and all seem ok, I am hoping it is a blockage only, Air filter box is clear and the filter is clean as it's only just been replaced. There is no oil usage and no oil discharge in the filters.

[discowhite]

split intercooler hoses do the same.

cheers phil

[discowhite]

oh and TD5's dont have an injector pump, so dont look there;)

cheers phil

[Psimpson7]

could be oil in the injector loom, that can have that affect. mine wouldnt pull and had black smoke when I had the issue.

[LandyAndy]

As others have mentioned.
Oil in the harness,remove ECU(next to battery D2,under seats Defender),if its leaking oil from the red plug,you need to search"Oil in the harness"
Intercooler hoses,they delaminate internaly so the only way check is to remove and inspect internally.
Airfilter,have you got it wet? Check to see if its fallen to bits,it will only get as far as the MAF sensor in the inlet hose as it has a screen.
Quite a few of have had good results from replacing the turbo modulator valve,it controls the wastgate opening.
Personally I would look in the "Electronic diagnosis" area and find somebody nearby with a Nanocom(see the list "Members with diagnostic equipment") Although no dash lights are on,Nanocom will read the ECU stored faults.
Let us know how you go with the above and see if we can help narrow it down.
Andrew

[Tombie]

That is so typical of delaminated hoses...

They'll usually look okay inside to the eye, but fail under pressure...

Check for oil in harness first, but if its not the harness, its 99% certain its the hose(s)

[LandyAndy]

To add to Toombies post,mine were stuffed,if they feel very soft compared to a radiator hose they are likely to be stuffed.
Andrew

[RoverMan]

Hi All thanks for all the replies. As I am limited with mechanical ability I will have a look at this on the weekend. I have spoken with a Diesel fitter and he said he had exactly the same thing happen to a Range Rover a couple of weeks ago. He seems to think its a pin in the Fuel pump that has collapsed. I will check the Hoses out as well but I removed the Turbo last night and was running it without the Turbo and the same thing was happening. This leads me to beleive it might be something else and Black smoke is related to to much fuel.

[Psimpson7]

Where are you based?

Rgds
Pete.

[Tombie]

Hi All thanks for all the replies. As I am limited with mechanical ability I will have a look at this on the weekend. I have spoken with a Diesel fitter and he said he had exactly the same thing happen to a Range Rover a couple of weeks ago. He seems to think its a pin in the Fuel pump that has collapsed. I will check the Hoses out as well but I removed the Turbo last night and was running it without the Turbo and the same thing was happening. This leads me to beleive it might be something else and Black smoke is related to to much fuel.


OK...

1) Dont ever go to THAT diesel fitter again :cool: There is NO PUMP like he is referring to in a TD5

2) Running a TD5 straight out the manifold without turbo is going to blow a tonne of smoke

And, why, oh why, would you do that? I assume you mean disconnected the turbo hose, not "removed it"

Doing this, gives the MAF a high airflow reading and low engine air intake, so the fuelling is going to be very stuffed up!!!

[RoverMan]

I am on the Sth side in Brisbane....Pete.

Isn't the fuel pump inside the Fuel Tank?

[Psimpson7]

I am in Ormeau so if you want to drop by I have a Nanocom (diagnostics) and some patience. More than happy to give you a hand.

I work from home too so am here basically all the time.

The main pump is in the tank and is a two stage electric affair. Each injector then has a camshaft driven pump to get the high pressure.

[RoverMan]

Sweet not far at all. The only issue is I cannot rev over 2000 RPM as I loss all Power so getting it there would be a problem.

[Psimpson7]

doh, good point... :)Will send you a PM. I could maybe pop over one day during the week if you like and could have a look (could tie it in with going to the office for the day!).

I will send you my phone number.

cheers
Pete

[Tombie]

Yes, the fuel pump is a 2 stage affair and located inside the fuel tank.

Its highly unlikely to be the cause of the symptoms you describe.

As a stop gap measure you can use a falcon radiator hose cut up to see if that fixes your problem, I just wouldnt leave it there too long :) (it will last till you get some replacement hoses though)

Check your ECU connectors for oil (remove the red one) and check the front of your engine for oil (looking from front under the cover on LH front corner where the wiring enters)

I seriously doubt theres a fault in the ECU thats going to show up, except TPS (accelerator pedal) faulty, which is possible.

Also, as a test, disconnect the MAF plug, and drive it, that can show up a blown MAF if it runs "better".

But it is very likely just a damaged hose (internally) or Oil problem in loom.

It certainly shouldnt be expensive to sort... And not likely to be the TPS... Which would be the most expensive part to replace.

[RoverMan]

Hey Guys,

I have remove the ECU and found on the Red Plug there is some oil on the cables going on. On removal of the Red Plug there was a little oil inside but non on the connects that I could tell... I assume the harness is what holds the ECU? If so there is a little Oil build up in the bottom of it....

[justinc]

Hi All thanks for all the replies. As I am limited with mechanical ability I will have a look at this on the weekend. I have spoken with a Diesel fitter and he said he had exactly the same thing happen to a Range Rover a couple of weeks ago. He seems to think its a pin in the Fuel pump that has collapsed. I will check the Hoses out as well but I removed the Turbo last night and was running it without the Turbo and the same thing was happening. This leads me to beleive it might be something else and Black smoke is related to to much fuel.

:o:o:o:o:o

What the???? Please explain.

JC

[RoverMan]

Hey JC what part do u want explained?

I have to go out for a bit so will check back a little later...

but this what happens at 2000 rpm and accelerator goes to the floor and there is no more power... then black smoke bellows out. after 10 seconds returns to idle as normal, you can do this over and over...

Jake

[Graeme]

Just remove the hose that's between the intercooler and the pipe from the turbo and see if there is a layer seperating inside. That is the very common source of this problem, and it will only take a few minutes to check.

[George130]

Hey Guys,

I have remove the ECU and found on the Red Plug there is some oil on the cables going on. On removal of the Red Plug there was a little oil inside but non on the connects that I could tell... I assume the harness is what holds the ECU? If so there is a little Oil build up in the bottom of it....

That would be oil in the ECU harness.

[p38arover]

TD5 Bellowing Black Smoke

IF you acceleraste to 2000 - 2250 RPM I lose all acceleration, this is followed by 1-2 seconds of white/grey smoke which is then proceeded by thick black smoke which continues to bellow out until car returns to idle.


Just how loud is it whilst it is billowing out smoke? :eek: :angel:

:D

[RoverMan]

Not loud at all, only gets to 2000RPM rev's out to 2000RPM normally.

[RoverMan]

After cleaning out the oil from inside the red Plug and the oil on the cables on the outside I put it back together, but the issue still remained

[p38arover]

Not loud at all, only gets to 2000RPM rev's out to 2000RPM normally.

So it isn't bellowing after all! :p

[LandyAndy]

Hi Roverman
If you have oil at the red plug you need to stop the source.Its the injector harness inside the rocker cover.You should be able to get one for around the $200 mark.You then need to flush the remaining oil from the main loom,metho spirits works well.Search "oil in the harness" in the "GOOD OIL" tips.
Goodluck
Andrew

[Graeme]

Just because there's oil at the ecu plug, it doesn't necessarily mean that its causing this or any problem yet.

[CraigE]

If there is oil at the ECU harness then it is likely this is causing some problem and if not will do in the near future. As oil is slightly conductive it interups the electrical pulses.
There are a fair few of us that have had this problem and mine did what yours is doing, though did not blow clouds of black smoke, only a little grey smoke.
This would be the first thing I would deal with. As said there are many posts on this subject, buy a new injector harness from Karcraft or similar and while you are waiting for that the harness from the injector loom connection at the head will need flushing with metho or non destructive to plastic contact cleaner and allowed to drain through. Metho and contact cleaner will also dry if any residual is left after flushing and is non conductive. Some people will argue that oil is non conductive, but there are enough of us here that can dispute that.
It is a job you are going to have to do sooner or later if it is not the culprit now and will eliminate another thing.
As said also check the turbo hoses for delamination. When you take the hoses off you can see the vanes on the turbo and check for damage or excessive oil build up.
Also check yor AFM and clean with contact cleaner.

[Trippo]

hi RoverMan
just noticed in Rave that it suggests to check EGR filter for
the condition of black smoke/loss of power. (If still got one)
See Rave - Disco Td5 Technical Bulliten No. 0018.
Need more info - let us know.
regards Chris

[justinc]

Hey JC what part do u want explained?

I have to go out for a bit so will check back a little later...

but this what happens at 2000 rpm and accelerator goes to the floor and there is no more power... then black smoke bellows out. after 10 seconds returns to idle as normal, you can do this over and over...

Jake

Sorry Jake, missed your reply.

I was concerned about the 'running it without the turbo' bit and was wondering how you did this. I am still convinced it is possibly a delaminated turbo to intercooler hose, these are classic symptoms.

JC

[RoverMan]

Thanks to u all, I just to get my brother over to look at all this as I have no idea where any of these things are and how to get them out. But i will get it done.

[RoverMan]

Hi JC,

Not sure either my brother said it was running naturally aspirated or something like that ...sux not know anything about cars...

Jakw

[RoverMan]

Hey all. After check the ECU, and fuel pump we removed the EGR value and as soon as we removed it the problem went away. So I bought a Blanking kit Alloy and just waiting for it to arrive, so this should fix the problem. Not quit sure why the EGR casue this maybe someone can help explain why? The value case very oiled up but we could still just manage to move the valve slighty by hand but only slightly must need a lot of vacum to move it. But will keep you posted.

jake

[RoverMan]

Thanks to all those who responded. We have found the issue but just have not had a chance to post reply due to xmas break. The problem was the intake to the intercooler was clogged, once this was flushed out the the hose to the intercooler replaced it was all go again.

jake

[CraigE]

Good news.
But if you have traces of oil in the ECU harness plug adress it now before it gets you in the middle of nowhere.

[p38arover]

I can't stand it any more. I'll have to edit the thread title from "bellowing" to "billowing" - two entirely different things!

bellow

• verb 1 emit a loud, deep roar of pain or anger. 2 shout or sing very loudly.
• noun a loud, deep shout or sound.


billow

• noun 1 a large undulating mass of cloud, smoke, or steam. 2 archaic a large sea wave.
• verb 1 (of fabric) fill with air and swell outwards. 2 (of smoke, cloud, or steam) move or flow outward with an undulating motion.

[Redback]

I can't stand it any more. I'll have to edit the thread title from "bellowing" to "billowing" - two entirely different things!

bellow

• verb 1 emit a loud, deep roar of pain or anger. 2 shout or sing very loudly.
• noun a loud, deep shout or sound.


billow

• noun 1 a large undulating mass of cloud, smoke, or steam. 2 archaic a large sea wave.
• verb 1 (of fabric) fill with air and swell outwards. 2 (of smoke, cloud, or steam) move or flow outward with an undulating motion.

Sleep Ron, you need to sleep;)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Pills Ron,,
take your pills!!!

[feral]

I can't stand it any more. I'll have to edit the thread title from "bellowing" to "billowing" - two entirely different things!

bellow

• verb 1 emit a loud, deep roar of pain or anger. 2 shout or sing very loudly.
• noun a loud, deep shout or sound.


billow

• noun 1 a large undulating mass of cloud, smoke, or steam. 2 archaic a large sea wave.
• verb 1 (of fabric) fill with air and swell outwards. 2 (of smoke, cloud, or steam) move or flow outward with an undulating motion.


Hi All,

Here is what is happening........

I am really lost with this.

Jake


mmmmm.......unfortunately they are doing both ;)

Td5 would be billowing.

And Jake would be bellowing.

:D