Am I about to have a TD5 headgasket issue

[Psimpson7]

Picture first:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/10/199.jpg

Car has done 98000km.

I have had evidence of coolant on the header tank as per the above picture twice in the last month or so.

I cleaned it off the first time to keep an eye on it. Cap is tight.

Engine doenst seem to use any water (so the evidence on the tank is basically all that escapes)

I just dont know when it is happening.

Doesnt seem to be any excess pressure in the tank that I can tell, when I take the cap off.

Any one got any ideas?

Should I try a new cap first.

Rgds
Peter

[mike 90 RR]

Weather is warming up & the age of the car is showing

Based on the dirt :( all around the engine bay :o it looks as tho the whole system could do with a really good clean up ;)

TIME to rip out the radiator and clean it externally & ALSO time to get the cores inside rodded out at the same time



Preventive maintenance is always the best measure to avoid expensive issues :angel:

[Psimpson7]

Hey Mike, Radiator is brand new after we stuffed the last one up the cape. (and even that one was perfect condtion - I had loads of them for some reason in the UK!)

Car is maintained to a ridiculously high level, and has anything changed as soon as it shows any sign of trouble.

Havent had the chance to clean it since Levuka the other weekend.

Rgds
Pete

[abaddonxi]

Did the right colour coolant go in with the new rad?

Cheers
Simon

[Psimpson7]

Yes, OAT coolant as required

Just to add, never gets hot either when in use.

[loanrangie]

I wouldnt worry, its just the cap venting, i have a new tank and cap and i still get a little weep like that, as long as the coolant level is ok and its not pushing it out like a geyser i wouldnt worry.

[Psimpson7]

Thanks for the reassurance LoanRangie:)

I try to keep a really close eye on it and sort anything out straight away.

If there is any chance that it is going to give trouble I would rather just do it now and not wait.

[mike 90 RR]

Hey Mike, Radiator is brand new after we stuffed the last one up the cape. (and even that one was perfect condtion - I had loads of them for some reason in the UK!)

Car is maintained to a ridiculously high level, and has anything changed as soon as it shows any sign of trouble.

Havent had the chance to clean it since Levuka the other weekend.

Rgds
Pete

Throws that theory out the window then ..... :p ;)



(for you at least)

[justinc]

Pete,

Just done a head gasket on a Td5 2000 model 110 that had coolant leaks exactly like that for almost a year until one day going up a hill the heater went cold...:o
This one had the plastic dowels fail and cut them almost horizontally through, exposing a water port to compression gasses.
I would suspect that your radiator episode has possibly started the ball rolling, so I would pay close attention to pressure and unexplained water losses.

Don't panic just yet, but I would be concerned enough to keep a look out.

Also, on this one above, I fitted a new rad cap some months ago thinking that it may reduce the seeping down the side of the bottle, but obviously at times when climbing hills etc it must've still been pressurising enough to force it's way past the new cap.

It has a BD 140Kw chip also.

JC

[Psimpson7]

Hi Justin, I was hoping you would answer:)

Mine is an 01 so I think I have the plastic dowels also.

I will as you suggest keep a close eye on it. I will clean the tank again now and check it every day. (well every day I use it - which isnt that often)

I must admit I think that maybe the loss of all the water, and heating up (although admitedly, not getting more than say 70% of the way up the guage) when we stuffed the rad may have something to do with this.

The car isnt chipped at all at the moment.

Rgds
Pete.

[justinc]

Hi Justin, I was hoping you would answer:)

Mine is an 01 so I think I have the plastic dowels also.

I will as you suggest keep a close eye on it. I will clean the tank again now and check it every day. (well every day I use it - which isnt that often)

I must admit I think that maybe the loss of all the water, and heating up (although admitedly, not getting more than say 70% of the way up the guage) when we stuffed the rad may have something to do with this.

The car isnt chipped at all at the moment.

Rgds
Pete.

Pete,

When they get hot, that is usually when the dowels actually fail. This in turn causes the gasket failure at a later stage due to the head moving.

I would, If I were you, do it before it overheats to the point that the rest of the engine is damaged, like the one we have in here at the moment that was driven for a fair while after the initial overheat...Costs a whole lot more when you do that:mad: Ended up replacing the head and fitting a low KM short engine. The block face was no longer flat, and some of the water ports were eaten away to under the outer edge of the fire ring on 2 cylinders. This engine has always run coolant since we've been servicing it, but after the head was off you could see that early on in its life that wasn't the case. It has 188K on the clock, but we have 250,000+ km 1999/2000 model ones that are still ok, that have never been overheated.

If you have the ability and resources to do it early on, then do it. It will at the very least give you peace of mind that the steel dowels are in there!


JC

[Psimpson7]

Hi Justin,

I think I will do it then......:eek: but may not do it for a couple of weeks. Probably a good idea to get all the parts needed first.

I am slightly nervous about it (the leak that is) and the peace of mind would be good.

It may be a bit easier than some as my car doenst have aircon either.

What other stuff would you do

Headgasket
Headbolts
Dowels
injector seals?
etc etc...?

Rgds
Pete.

[justinc]

Hi Justin,

I think I will do it then......:eek: but may not do it for a couple of weeks. Probably a good idea to get all the parts needed first.

I am slightly nervous about it (the leak that is) and the peace of mind would be good.

It may be a bit easier than some as my car doenst have aircon either.

What other stuff would you do

Headgasket
Dowels
injector seals?
etc etc...?

Rgds
Pete.

At 100K, I would'nt anticipate having to do a valve job etc, but you will have to surface grind the head slightly because the steel shim type gasket they use actually seals by cutting into the aluminium of the haed surface ever so slightly when torqued down. If the head has moved, expect to see galling etc where the gasket has shifted.
Replacement of the injector lower sealing washers, O rings, manifold gaskets and fuel block gasket are mandatory, and obviously the head gasket. Check what thickness you need, should be a 2 or 3 hole gasket, they seem to be the most common.
Replace all the exhaust manifold studs, and it also pays to replace the rocker cover rubber gasket as they harden with age.

Give me a call on 0408 995 635 if you need to chat about it some more!
:):)

JC

[Psimpson7]

Thanks Justin. :)

[barney]

on the other side of the coin, my wife's disco (td5 2004) was going into limp home mode during summer with the air cond on. we found it was using water.
no signs of leakage or smell of coolant ever.
LR dealer replaced the bottle cap on the first visit. now bear in mind that each of the following parts were replaced on separate, subsequent visits. we had already suggested the head gasket but were told "no, it couldn't be that"
after the cap, one of the hoses was replaced, then the radiator, then another radiator.
not long after this the disco began to run on 4 cylinders on start-up then kick in the fifth when a bit of heat got into the engine.
they took it in to look at......yes, the head gasket. replaced the gasket, as a temporary measure while they waited for a NEW MOTOR!
got the new motor, booked the car in, the turbo blew up the day before it went in.
they had the car for ten days and hired us an auto hilux ute with a towbar so the wife could keep working.
the only part they used off the old motor was the mount for the oil filter.
the next week we headed off to the Expo in penrith, my mate, in the convoy, thought the oil was coming from my car, nope, it was coming from the Disco.
it went back in on monday, they took the cast mount off and replaced the gasket. she went through 5 litres of oil the next day. they had cracked the cast mount when they put it back on. they rang me and told me to come up and pick up her trailer as they had no cars for her.
i started heading off and got another phone call, "we've found a car she can have".
about an hour later, she turns up with the dog washing trailer in tow behind a XJ jaguar demonstrator.
the fitted a new mount and it's been fine since. that was nearly 2 yrs ago.
in land rover's defence, the customer service was great, just the mechanics were very sub standard both at the diagnostic stage and in workmanship.
something that needs to be addressed

[loanrangie]

Ok, so since a TDI/TD5 cooling system is a closed system surely the only way for any pressure to vent is via the reservoir bottle cap and therefor a little weeping would be normal - pressure has to be released somewhere to atmosphere ?

[scarry]

that was nearly 2 yrs ago.
in land rover's defence, the customer service was great, just the mechanics were very sub standard both at the diagnostic stage and in workmanship.
something that needs to be addressed
Dont want to hijack thread,but

Off topic a little,i always found LRA customer service excellent,better than any other vehicle manufacturer i have delt with.The quality of the workmanship by the mechanics ,if you can call them mechanics was always extremely poor,to say the least.I stopped using the stealers around two years ago,they may have since improved.

Getting back to original topic,Psimpson,i would get job done asap,as vehicle is not reliable the way it is,& if you leave it engine may be further damaged.

MR auto would be my piont of call,as they do this work all day & are excellent,unless you have the confidence to do it yourself
Good luck with it.:)

[justinc]

Ok, so since a TDI/TD5 cooling system is a closed system surely the only way for any pressure to vent is via the reservoir bottle cap and therefor a little weeping would be normal - pressure has to be released somewhere to atmosphere ?

Hi Chris,

Anything over the caps' rated pressure of 15psi is coming from either extremely high engine temps, or a headgasket failure pressurising the system.

I have even replaced caps on these in the past thinking they were possibly failing, but alas, no.

There is an air pocket about half the capacity of the bottle to take up the expansion and contraction of the coolant without splitting the bottle etc.

That it is why you only check and fill the coolant to the cold fill line when cold.

Since Pete's Defender isn't overheating then with other anecdotal evidence, I am suggesting he thinks about replacing the head gasket before it ruins the rest of his engine...

JC

[Psimpson7]

LR, it had never in my ownership allowed fluid out of the cap ever. I have had it for 6 years so as soon as I saw this I was worried, and after talking to Justin yesterday, changing it now (or in the next couple of weeks once I have amassed all the parts) seems like a logical step.

I would prefer to do it before it failed properly rather than just keping driving it until it fails seriously.

cheers
Pete

[mike 90 RR]

Ok, so since a TDI/TD5 cooling system is a closed system surely the only way for any pressure to vent is via the reservoir bottle cap and therefor a little weeping would be normal - pressure has to be released somewhere to atmosphere ?

I would have to agree with you under normal circumstances of engine temperaments ..... However ..... The "key" to this being a problem with this car is


He has identified something abnormal going on with the way the cap is leaking water .... AND it happened after he lost a radiator and I suspect he over heated it ;)

Mike

:(

[Psimpson7]

Just to add, we will be doing it ourselves. 'Dranged' (another Justin) on here is happy to give me an hand so thats really good of him. I have built plenty of engines over the years just never a TD5 so it will be an interesting experience.

Luckily being a Defender everything is easy to get too, and it also doesnt have aircon so its really simple.

Just going to work out all the parts I need over the weekend.

(if anyone has a list of part numbers they could post that would be great;))

Will try and get loads of pics to show the process

edit to add, Mike, it did get hotter than normal when we lost the rad, but we caught the gauge pretty quickly (maybe not quickly enough) that happened about 7000km ago

Cheers
Pete

[justinc]

Just to add, we will be doing it ourselves. 'Dranged' (another Justin) on here is happy to give me an hand so thats really good of him. I have built plenty of engines over the years just never a TD5 so it will be an interesting experience.

Luckily being a Defender everything is easy to get too, and it also doesnt have aircon so its really simple.

Just going to work out all the parts I need over the weekend.

(if anyone has a list of part numbers they could post that would be great;))

Will try and get loads of pics to show the process

Cheers
Pete


This is a good opportunity for a DIY tutorial Pete! Just think, you could be filming while Justin does all the work:twisted:
I'll post up all the part numbers on Monday when I'm back at work.
Do you have a competent machinist nearby?
JC

[Psimpson7]

Lol :D what a great idea!

Other Justin was saying he has one down by him so it looks like it hopefully.

I take it we need to get the absoloute minimum removed?

Part list would be awesome Justin:)

Rgds
Pete

[justinc]

I would have to agree with you under normal circumstances of engine temperaments ..... However ..... The "key" to this being a problem with this car is


He has identified something abnormal going on with the way the cap is leaking water .... AND it happened after he lost a radiator and I suspect he over heated it ;)

Mike

:(

Good point about abnormal behaviour Mike.

One of the things I was taught MANY years ago was to ask lots of questions of customers when they are either booking in or dropping off the vehicle. The 5 to 10 minutes of question and answer time about 'have you noticed any different smells(Coolant into the cabin when heater on), sounds(Tapping, groaning, screaching etc), leaks, (It is a Landy afterall:p) loss of performance..etc etc ' is critical for me to do my job correctly. Treat it EXACTLY like a Dr's appointment. The more info you can give the service manager or preferably the person ACTUALLY working on your vehicle the better. It is worse with motor vehicles,as they, unlike a patient, can't tell you 'where it hurts' in order for you to find and rectify faults:D

Had a Td5 customer who mentioned a slipping fan belt noise when under acceleration...Manifolds studs thought I..(as we all know what THAT sounds like don't we, Td5 owners:p) and as their other half had said 'don't worry its only a fan belt, get it looked at in 4 months time at the service':eek: it was a much more expensive job...Rule is Boys, if the wife hears any unusual noise while driving around, get it looked at. It might not be something 'simple'. The world is full of 'I told you so's'..

Sooo...

Anyone not interested in what you have to say when dropping of your vehicle for even a routine check obviously doesn't want to fix it in the first place...:mad:

JC

[justinc]

Lol :D what a great idea!

Other Justin was saying he has one down by him so it looks like it hopefully.

I take it we need to get the absoloute minimum removed?

Part list would be awesome Justin:)

Rgds
Pete

When sending to a machinist, remove ALL the lash adjusters and followers, the posts for the injector clamps(Ask me how I know about THEM:mad:) any brackets external, fuel block along with oring and gauze screen, any sensor that might get broken, as they will.. Studs etc can stay, cam box and rocker shaft dowels must also be removed as they will get lost also.
Tell them to take the absolute MINIMUM off to clean the face only. This is another reason to do this job BEFORE it overheats, as warpage over 10 thou on a Td5 head usually means throwaway:mad: (Thats .25mm )

If in doubt, mark or take photos before dissassembly.

Parts list coming up on Monday sometime:D

Enjoy!

JC

[awabbit6]

Hi Chris,

Anything over the caps' rated pressure of 15psi is coming from either extremely high engine temps, or a headgasket failure pressurising the system.

I have even replaced caps on these in the past thinking they were possibly failing, but alas, no.

There is an air pocket about half the capacity of the bottle to take up the expansion and contraction of the coolant without splitting the bottle etc.

That it is why you only check and fill the coolant to the cold fill line when cold.

Since Pete's Defender isn't overheating then with other anecdotal evidence, I am suggesting he thinks about replacing the head gasket before it ruins the rest of his engine...

JC

I agree with Justin. I had similar symptoms with my Disco (300Tdi) and ignored the coolant being blown past the cap until I had more evidence to verify the head gasket was blown. Sure enough, within 6 months it started blowing out heaps of coolant, overheating and the heater stopped working.

I don't think you'll regret changing the head gasket now Pete. You'll prevent more damage when it does let go.


Paul

[jimbo110]

Not a Landrover engine, but you will get the idea...............ignore coolant loss at your peril................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgkmdLN8mD0&feature=related

[loanrangie]

I would have to agree with you under normal circumstances of engine temperaments ..... However ..... The "key" to this being a problem with this car is


He has identified something abnormal going on with the way the cap is leaking water .... AND it happened after he lost a radiator and I suspect he over heated it ;)

Mike

:(

Yeah i didnt take into account any previous history but rad replacement sets off the alarm bells.

[Tombie]

Picture first:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/10/199.jpg

Car has done 98000km.

I have had evidence of coolant on the header tank as per the above picture twice in the last month or so.

I cleaned it off the first time to keep an eye on it. Cap is tight.

Engine doenst seem to use any water (so the evidence on the tank is basically all that escapes)

I just dont know when it is happening.

Doesnt seem to be any excess pressure in the tank that I can tell, when I take the cap off.

Any one got any ideas?

Should I try a new cap first.

Rgds
Peter

I've seen that on TD5s that have been "leaning hard" during an offroad trip.

[Tombie]

Justin,

Let me add to your comments...

The Plastic Dowels dont cause the failure... Loss of tension in the head bolts does.

Steel dowels mask the effect for a lot longer than plastic ones.


Now,

When replacing the gasket, fitting steel dowels to the wrong range of TD5's is actually a no-no.... And can cause the heads to crack.

However, I have seen people make up custom alloy ones with some success.

[Psimpson7]

Hey Tombie,

Thanks for your additions.

I am fairly confident that the gasket is on its way. Previously when its been worked hard it hasn't done this. If it had been doing it since I had it, I wouldn't be worried, its mainly because of the fact that something has changed, and after the dramas earlier in the year, it had been at the back of my mind.

With regard to the dowels, I will get a set of steel and plastic ones and compare them, If they are different I will make up some steel ones the same size as the plastic ones and use them.

I wont be putting plastic dowels back in.:)

Cheers
Pete.

[McDisco]

Hey All

On my recent Simpson trip, the bleed screw on the top coolant hose hadnt been tightened enough after been replaced with a brass unit. I did a long drive from Melbourne to Peterborough (in SA) and noticed the next morning that my coolant had dropped to the bottom of the bottle and coolant had been sprayed across the engine bay. I tightened the screw and topped up the cooant.

Now I didnt lose any more coolant for the whole trip and at no time did the temp gauge go over the normal level. Obviously if the coolant was too low it could have cause the gasket issue....

What should I be looking out for apart from continued coolant loss?

Angus

[Blknight.aus]

contamination and breakdown of the OAT....

it should be a lovely red pink colour if its an off brown or it looks like broken ice when you look inside the expansion tank somethings killing it... its either overheating, copping a touch of blowby or youve got a hotspot in the engine somewhere.

If you had it last done at a dealer go and ask nicely for a sample of the coolant that they put in (ideally you want the same batch) do a visual comparison of the coolant if yours doesnt look like whats in the sample bottle something is adrift.

OAT also leaves a really easy to follow trail when it leaks out of a hose fitting so on a nice bright day eyeball every joint on the vehicle and if you still cant find it dust the engine with talcum powder and take it for a drive. let it cool down and then check again.

[McDisco]

Thanks Dave. My coolant is still nice and pink, no colour change at all.

Wouldnt it be good to have a central depositry for this info? If you suspected something you could click on the problem and a list of things to look for would just pop up. But I guess we all wouldnt chat as much then...

Angus

[abaddonxi]

<snip>

Wouldnt it be good to have a central depositry for this info? If you suspected something you could click on the problem and a list of things to look for would just pop up. But I guess we all wouldnt chat as much then...

Angus

Some people say that it's The Stig's second home.

We just call it The Good Oil (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/good-oil/).:p

If you've got a good idea for a Good Oil thread PM me or Pedro and we'll put it up.

A good idea should include a couple of links to the relevant threads that cover the topic.

Cheers
Simon

[Graeme]

With regard to the dowels, I will get a set of steel and plastic ones and compare them, If they are different I will make up some steel ones the same size as the plastic ones and use them.

I wont be putting plastic dowels back in.:)

Cheers
Pete.
My 99 D2 wasn't able to have the LR steel dowels so I made some using the shank of an 8mm drill bit, on the advice of the local engine reconditioners. My 03 D2 (build date 10/02) has plastic dowels that can/should/will be replaced by the LR steel dowels if the head ever gets removed.

[DRanged]

This is a good opportunity for a DIY tutorial Pete! Just think, you could be filming while Justin does all the work:twisted:
I'll post up all the part numbers on Monday when I'm back at work.
Do you have a competent machinist nearby?
JC


Thanks JC:cool:

JL