IIA crunchy cornering... bearings?

[Shonky]

Driving Ambrose around yesterday, he developed a few new noises up front. :(

First off, it started making knocking sounds on braking. It didn't affect braking, it wasn't pulling and I couldn't feel it through the pedal or the steering. The noise sounded like it was coming from the front left wheel area...

I made a note of it, but as it wasn't loud and it wasn't affecting driving I kept driving home, just being gentle.

Later that evening, I was doing a U-turn in the end of my street to put Ambrose in the driveway, and it made a loud grinding and knocking noise which didn't sound good... It stopped when I straightened up and it didn't cause any loss of steering or motion, but it made the noises again as I was turning into the driveway.

I don't think it is a broken half-shaft - there wasn't a trademark 'bang' and it isn't noisy normally. I could be wrong though... thoughts?

I was thinking that it was more likely to be a dicky bearing that has finally spat the dummy. Considering the length of time the vehicle has been sitting idle it could have seeped it's oil and been running dry. :(

I seem to remember reading something about converting oil-filled hubs to grease packed. Am I right, or confused?

Anyway - let me know your thoughts because I am loath to drive him anywhere until it is all sorted. ;)

Oh - I should mention that I drove it home from the previous owners place (~30kms) in 4WD by accident. This may have contributed to this. :(

[JDNSW]

It could be bearings going, although I doubt it. More likely to be a bearing nut loose (and on the left hand side, on the way off!) which should be checked immediately before driving it again. Jack up the wheel and check for the wheel being free to wobble If it does, and it is not the swivel or the wheel nuts, remove the drive flange and check. If it is loose bearing nuts you will have to strip it and replace at a minimum the lock washer, but check the stub axle thread for damage and the seal for sealing. Bearings are likely to be OK unless they have been run dry or allowed to rust, neither of which is likely to happen unless the oil that should be there has been replaced with grease. It could also be loose wheel nuts, again easy to check.

But perhaps the most likely, if it stops when going straight, and does it when turning, is a U-joint in the swivel housing, either in the process of disintegration, or simply dry, or both. Jack up that side, full lock, and spin the wheel, trying to see where the noise is coming from. A small torch looking through the filler hole may see something, but it sounds to me as if a swivel disassembly for inspection is indicated.

John

[Shonky]

Thanks John - how did I know you would be first to reply! :lol2:


Bearings are likely to be OK unless they have been run dry or allowed to rust, neither of which is likely to happen unless the oil that should be there has been replaced with grease.

I take it that you are not a fan of grease filled hubs then? If not, may I ask why?

Thanks for your comprehensive and helpful answer. I will crack out the green bible and see what I can do. :)

[dandlandyman]

Have you got free-wheeling-hubs on it? I had a new Selectro unit on the front right wheel start graunching when I went around a left-hand corner. I stripped it on the side of the road one day and found a circlip had come adrift. Easy fixed, but it had me worried.

Dan.
69 2A 88" pet4, 74 3 109" pet4, 68 2B FC pet6.

[Shonky]

G'Day Dan.

No free wheeling hubs. Just plain old drive flanges. :)

[Xtreme]

My first thought was (as JDNSW has suggested) the U-joint in the swivel housing, although usually if the U-joint was disintegrating, I would have thought you would get some 'kick-back' through the steering while turning.

Re the bearing lubrication - stick with the oil. Anyway you wouldn't have the necessary seals in Ambrose to stop the oil working up from the diff/swivel housing if you wanted to for greased wheel bearings.

Roger

[Shonky]

Oil it is then. :D

Ta. Will let you know how I go. :)

[d@rk51d3]

You're not in 4WD are you?


Edit -

Never mind.... I just read the last line of your opening post.:angel::wasntme:

[Shonky]

Haha... hmm... slight problem gents. :angel:

Ambrose didn't come with a jack. :lol2:


Forgot about that!

I also don't have a hub-nut box spanner - will have to get one off eBay. I don't want to do it the cold-chisel way.

[JohnE]

ambrose gets posts up and down the page!

a hint i don't have a hub nut spanner, use a pair multi grips its just as easy, i don;t know why you would want to use a cold chisel they are not usually that tight.

hope it helps,


john

[JDNSW]

Thanks John - how did I know you would be first to reply! :lol2:



I take it that you are not a fan of grease filled hubs then? If not, may I ask why?
..........

Not so much a fan of grease filled hubs as not a fan of grease filled swivels. The problem with grease on roller bearings as opposed to oil is that the grease gets pushed aside and stays there, where oil runs back to continually renew the lubrication. Also, with oil, you can tell when the seal has failed - it leaks oil. What happens with the grease is that if the seal fails (and they do) the grease stays in (fine you say!) but the water (and dust and moist air) comes in through the faulty seal - and the first thing you know about anything wrong is when the bearing fails.

But as noted by Xtreme, you can't keep the oil out - unless the swivel is filled with grease not oil. This is definitely not recommended (except for semi-liquid grease, also known as "one-shot", which behaves more like oil, and even then it is a bit doubtful), as it will not properly lubricate the universal, nor will it lubricate the upper swivel bush at all. Both will usually have a short life if grease is used.

John

[Olive Drab]

think I'll be overhauling my front end now. previous owner filled the swivel housings with grease.
Thanks to all in this thread for more useful info again.

[RobHay]

The better style of Hub Spanner are available from British Off Road for $14-95, I have seen the el cheapo ones on e-bay with a start price of $30

[Shonky]

You tell me that now Rob, after I just bought one off eBay for $35... :(

[Shonky]

...but thankyou anyway. :)

[Xtreme]

I've been using one of the 'el-cheapo' tube type hub nut spanners for years now. However, I have welded an old 1/2" drive socket to it - this not only strengthens it but I don't have to search for a suitable bar or screwdriver everytime I use it now.

Roger

[Freewheeler]

All I use is a plumbers tube spanner, the one used for tightening the waste pipe to hand basins and sinks. It fits pretty well and is readily available from plumbers merchants fairly cheaply. At least they are over here.

[Shonky]

Well thinking that I had a replacement on hand (see Ambrose' thread) I pulled the UJ.

It looked okay to me after all that, but I wouldn't really know... :angel:

What should I look for to determine if the UJ is actually buggered?

The old is on the left, and the blatantly incorrect is onn the right (hence, ignore the UJ on the right)
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk188/670719/DSCF0700.jpg

[JDNSW]

As far as you can tell from the photo, there is nothing wrong with that U-joint. For it to make a noise, I would expect to see broken or missing needles in at least one of the cups, or signs of severe wear on at least one of the journals, or possibly a missing circlip and a cup moved out of place.

John

[Shonky]

I was worried you would say that John. :(

All of the rollers seem in good order, and all of the circlips were firmly in situ.

If it isn't the UJ, it has to be something else. There was minor scoring on the flanges of the stub shaft - could it have been grinding against the swivel pin housing?

:(

[JDNSW]

I was worried you would say that John. :(

All of the rollers seem in good order, and all of the circlips were firmly in situ.

If it isn't the UJ, it has to be something else. There was minor scoring on the flanges of the stub shaft - could it have been grinding against the swivel pin housing?

:(

The only way the stub shaft can touch anything is if the swivel bush/bearing have free play - or possibly if the steering stop is set to allow it to turn too far. I would look very carefully at the swivels - with the stub axle off, disconnect the tie rod and drag link and check the preload on the swivel - strictly need to remove the seal to do this, but you can tell if there is a problem if the force to turn the swivel housing is less than about 14 pounds. You may not need to go even this far to tell if this is the problem - if there is any free play at all, you need to deal with it. The scoring could reflect an earlier episode when the swivel was loose of course - in the oily environment it would still look fresh. (there is a slight chance that the bearing on the diff side of the U-joint has failed, but this is almost unheard of unless run dry)

John

[Shonky]

Thanks, as per usual John. :)

How do I check preload? Do I need a 'special tool' for that?

Since my UJ seems to be okay, can I repack the rollers and keep it as a spare?

[JDNSW]

Thanks, as per usual John. :)

How do I check preload? Do I need a 'special tool' for that?

Preload is checked using a spring balance - like used for weighing your fish. Disconnect the track rod and drag link and measure the force needed to turn it, using the hole the track rod was in. This without the big seal installed. Adjust with shims under the top pin, but if there is any play, you need to take it apart and check the bottom bearing and the top bush, replacing as necessary. See the manual (and if you don't have one, get one! The factory one is the best).

Since my UJ seems to be okay, can I repack the rollers and keep it as a spare?

Yes, although it is not good practice unless you have kept track of which cup fits on which arm. But unless you allow the swivels to run dry, you are pretty unlikely to need a spare, particularly since at worst you can remove the half axle and run in 2wd until you get one.


Hope that helps

John

[Shonky]

Thanks JD.

Weigh my fish? I just eat my fish! :D

I have a workshop manual and a Haynes Restoration manual. ;) I will check them when I get a chance (next week) :(

Seems like there is no point resurrecting the old UJ. Oh well. :)

Thanks a heap mate - as usual your knowledge and advice are greatly appreciated. :D

[Shonky]

Okay... well I still haven't done anything about this - mainly because I don't have a spring balance and I have come to the conclusion that I am out of my depth considering the short timeframe. :( (not to mention I have been flat out on the rest of the truck...)

Australia Day is looming and I am going away to Queensland the week before, so now I am starting to stress... :(

1: Is it possible to drive it to the City and back (~30kms each way) in it's current state? (undesireable)

2: If I took it to the mechanic down the road and said "fix it" is there a good chance they would solve the problem, or is this a Landy-ism that will only confuse the average spanner spinner?

3: Does anyone want to spend a day with me showing me how it is done? I will even take a day off work. :(

[JDNSW]

Okay... well I still haven't done anything about this - mainly because I don't have a spring balance and I have come to the conclusion that I am out of my depth considering the short timeframe. :( (not to mention I have been flat out on the rest of the truck...)

Australia Day is looming and I am going away to Queensland the week before, so now I am starting to stress... :(

1: Is it possible to drive it to the City and back (~30kms each way) in it's current state? (undesireable)

Sudden failure is most unlikely, so you should be OK.

2: If I took it to the mechanic down the road and said "fix it" is there a good chance they would solve the problem, or is this a Landy-ism that will only confuse the average spanner spinner?

It is a Landyism - but if the spanner spinner is worth his salt he should be able to fix it, perhaps helped by a printout of the relevant parts of this thread plus the manual.

3: Does anyone want to spend a day with me showing me how it is done? I will even take a day off work. :(

Bit far away, but there may be someone closer.

John

[Shonky]

Thanks John - I certainly didn't expect you to drive 4 hours to give me a hand, (!) however I had a good idea that you would be first up to provide sound advice and that is more appreciated than you could know... :eek:

I'm glad to hear that it wont likely fail on me - I will still try and get it fixed but if I don't then at least it wont be a disaster...


There is more at stake here than my desire to display him at motorfest... I have basically put everything on hold to get Ambrose this far in three months. If it doesn't make it to Australia Day then I will feel as if I could have just taken my time and spent some more time with my neglected lady instead. :(

I will try and fix it myself with help, but worst comes to worst I will try the local mechanic with help, and worst scenario I just drive it as is... :)

[UncleHo]

G'day Shonky :)

You should be able to get a spring scale (fish scale) from such places as BCF or a good bait shop, or even at BigW fishing camping section, then just read and follow the instructions in your Haynes manual:) it will take you a few hours to do but is do-able with home tools, and GET A GOOD JACK AND AXLE STANDS ;) as Bloodboxes are heavy when the fall on you, you finish up crushed:( the swilel housing bolts are BSF size but you can use AF or Metric providing they are a neat fit, what I would be looking at first is if there are rub marks on the chassis rail at the rear of the tyre arc, as if the steering lock stops have been bent/broken/ removed so as to get a better turning circle then the tyre will rub on the chassis 9about the rear of front spring,and as the tread rubs on the chassis it sounds like the car is disintergrating:eek: there will also be slight damage to the inside corners of the tread.


cheers

[Shonky]

Well I was hoping that this one would slip into the ether... :angel: but I guess I had better tell you how it all panned out.


Fellow LROCS member Bob Shannon (bobslandies) dropped around on Friday and had a look for me. Two things were causing the crunching noises. Neither were as serious as I had thought, neither were expensive to fix, and Bob had both problems diagnosed and fixed in three minutes flat and with no tools. :(

It goes to show that no amount of reading or asking is worth anywhere near as much as decades of experience! ;)

1: The dog clutch in the transfer case hadn't fully disengaged.
Solution - yank transfer lever back and forth a few times.
Time - 2 minutes
Cost- $0.00

2: The tyres were rubbing on the springs. (Good guess Kev...)
Solution - don't turn wheel so much until I can adjust the lock stops.
Time - 1 minute
Cost - $0.00


as the tread rubs on the chassis it sounds like the car is disintergrating:eek:

You are right about that! :o I was convinced Ambrose was about to lose a hub or something! :eek:



Lesson learned and stored in brain. ;)

[Xtreme]

That's good news Andrew - see you on Australia Day at the Motorfest.
Bob has a wealth of experience and puts an amazing effort into ensuring that we have an excellent display of Landys at these displays.

Roger

[Shonky]

Thanks Roger. :)

Yep - Bob certainly knows his stuff, and is a top blokoe to boot. ;)

I will definately see you on Australia Day! (Need to fix alternator...)

[JohnE]

gee that was an expensive exercise for a simple cure.

Something to remember.


je

[Shonky]

Tell me about it, John. :(

You live and learn I suppose. The devil is in the diagnosis - Bob has been around Landies for so long that he could probabaly detect a missing chassis bung by smell! I haven't had the benefit of much mechanical experience at all.

This is due in part (and I hate using this as an excuse for anything) to the fact that my father was largely absent from my childhood (due to divorced parents living in different countries, not that he is a bad dad!) and after being moved to suburban Sydney I lost the opportunities to tinker that a full-time rural upringing offered.

Nonetheless, I have a brain like a sponge and I make an effort to absorb every bit of knowledge I can wring out of people like yourself, Dinty, JDNSW, Bob, Diana and many others from AULRO, REMLR, LROCS and various others I meet along the way. :) I also try and do everything myself, even if I have to do it twice because I don't get it the first time.

It all goes towards building up my own knowledge and experience, and I would love to one day be able to pass on whatever skills I have accumulated to my kids or a person in my present situation. :)

[JohnE]

well said

most of us are self taught in the ways of things mechanical. My fathers idea to insert a screw into wood was with a hammer. He has no mechanical aptitude at all. I remember one time I was putting in a new clutch into the pajero I had , he couldn;t work out why I had to take the gearbox out, reckoned the clutch should just drop in from the top.

I meant something to remember for all of us. Its a good one for tips and tricks. One of those things you wouldn't expect to happen.

A bit like when i had my pajero, you had to reverse it to unlock the auto hubs, thats why they have manuals I suppose. The first time I didn;t do it i couldn;t work out why the thing was hard to turn, windup was terrible in it with the hubs still locked. Didn;t make grinding noises but made a lot of groans.



john

[Lotz-A-Landies]

well said

most of us are self taught in the ways of things mechanical. My fathers idea to insert a screw into wood was with a hammer. ... <snip>John I think that that must have been something that was taught in trade school during the inter war years (or at least on the job, away from the Tech. College).

My father was a chippy (he's still alive BTW) and it was routine for him to drive a screw to the shoulder and then screw it for a final fix. With hardwood he'd sometimes drill a pilot hole sometimes he'd drive a nail and pull it out. The only people who would routinely drill holes for screws were cabinent makers.

These days while chippys don't drive screws they use tech screws in the same way and cabinet makers use staple guns.

I guess it's all in the way that builders have to work to get the job done and onto the next one. You could go broke if you spent your time drilling various sized holes for all the screws in a building.

Diana

[Shonky]

SUCCESS!

Sortof.

I sat down tonight, cleaned off the bench, put Deep Purple in the CD player and with my nice big new ball peen hammer I bashed the little bastards home and managed to keep all of the needle bearings in situ. :twisted:

The joint turns and functions as it should and it is all in properly, BUT: It is rather stiff... is this normal for a new UJ? The old one was limp and moved with almost no resistance, however the current one can be moved into position by hand and it will retain that position unless you shake it.

Will it loosen up with time?


Should I also mention that even before I put it in I had concerns about the quality of the UJ - just turning the cups by hand they felt lumpy...

[Blknight.aus]

doing the UJ's with a hammer is an art form....

did you grease them prior to turning them?

they will free up but make sure you keep the grease to them and check it for temp after about a 20K drive, if the yoke is hot youve got something wrong.

[chazza]

Dave I think Shonky has replaced the UJ in the swivel housing, not on a prop shaft, although I may be wrong.

Shonks, the UJ should not feel lumpy; are you sure it is not just the drag of the new seals. It is not unexpected at all for the new joint to feel firmer, after all the old will be worn to some extent. A better way to insert the bearing races is to squeeze them in gently with a vice and a slightly smaller socket as a press tool.

Incidentally; I like your style and Deep Purple - make sure you drop down to Narrogin next time you come to Perth, :D

Cheers Charlie

[Shonky]

G'Day Dave. :)

They came pre greased, but considering I have oil filled hubs I would have thought it would be better not to regrease it and let the oil seep in and do it's thing...

Should I remove the grease nipple to facilitate better oil ingress?


I am not keen to hammer in UJs again anytime soon... it's painfully fiddly as you say. I stuffed the first one up. :(

I will install it today and take it for a bit of a drive and see how it goes. :)

[Shonky]

Thanks Charlie - yep it was the blasted Swivel UJ that has been gnawing away at my for months. :mad:

It could just be the drag, but it just didn't feel as smooth as it should.

I would have loved to press them in, but I couldn't fit it in my vice and I was loathe to go and buy a new vice just to press in a UJ. :(


Yep - next time I am over that way I will definately head down and say G'Day!

[Blknight.aus]

I wouldnt have fitted the Uj's with the grease nipple as they are ment to be a greaseless UJ sort of like a sealed for life unit that doesnt have the grease gallery in it.

that said.

I would have filled the cups with 85/140 prior to assembly, it makes a mess but youve then got the right kind of lube in there to start with and I wouldnt have fitted them untill I had them together in such a way as they weren't binding.

I had thought you were doing the prop shaft UJ's.

If your in doubt I have a spare set of series front shafts that are in good nick that you're welcome to borrow.

[Shonky]

I ordered them from LVS who knew it was for an oil filled swivel - both of the ones I ordered came with nipples. :(

I'll be ****ed if this doesn't work... I have dicked around with this bloody half shaft for months and it turns out that there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.


Thanks for the offer of a half shaft. bobslandies has a few apparently so I may be able to get one more localy if I need to. :)

I have pulled the nipple out - that should get the oil flowing shouldn't it?

[Blknight.aus]

yep it will.

[Aaron IIA]

If these universal joints are in oil, would it not be prudent to remove the seals to let the oil in more readily?

Aaron.

[Shonky]

I did consider that Aaron, but the seal seemed to play an important part in keeping the needle rollers bedded in, so I decided to leave them in situ. ;)

[HughP]

I like to use "Groil" ie oil so thickened up with grease it is more like yoghurt/babyfood/facecream. And simply add 60% grease and 40% oil to the hub. It will only very slowly leak out a damaged swivel, but still work itself to where its got to go. A solution good for many years, and will only get pulled up if the RW man has had a billious day!