Defender flattening battery when left sitting

[Captain_Rightfoot]

We don't drive our defender all the time. In fact we don't really drive that much at all! It's not uncommon for our car to be left to sit for three weeks at a time.

So, we've got this problem where the cranking battery is DEAD flat when you go to use it. I measured the parasitic load on it last night and it was .007 amps. That means that in 3 weeks the load should be about 3.5 amps...which isn't very much.

There is a brand new cranking battery in there, and a second aux battery that ends up being isolated by the traxide system (not that there are any accessories on it normally).

When it's sitting around about the only thing that I can think of that would be running is the body computer and the electronic rust proofer thingy. Neither of which should be capable of flattening a 100ah battery!

Any ideas, chaps? :)

PS. Also I'm pretty sure it's charging properly but will check this morning when it goes for a run.

[weeds]

i thought the traxide isolators only isolate the batteries when both batteries are reduced to a pre-determine voltage therefore your aux battery will not be fully charged........

can you override the isolator so that you can start from the aux? not that that solves your problems as you still need to find the source that is flatening your start

[Captain_Rightfoot]

i thought the traxide isolators only isolate the batteries when both batteries are reduced to a pre-determine voltage therefore your aux battery will not be fully charged........

can you override the isolator so that you can start from the aux? not that that solves your problems as you still need to find the source that is flatening your start

They will actually isolate both ways (help Tim?). So if as the voltage drops to a determined level, it isolates the batteries. If the load is on the main side then it will just continue and flatten the main battery. I do carry a cable to link the two batteries, but because of the nature of this it only ever happens at home. So i just put the charger on it. :o

[waynep]

You need to think of everything in terms of amp hours. Ready to be shot down in flames but here's some thoughts :

Now your fully charged, new condition 100 amp/hour battery could, in theory, provide 1 amp for 100 hours, or 100 amps for 1 hour, or any variation in between ( actually it would'nt supply that high a current for that long due to other factors e.g heat )

So at .007 amps current draw, ( or 7 milliamps ) as you have measured, I worked out ( hopefully correctly ) that your battery should last 14285 hrs or 595 days. Actually 7 mA is quite low, that's less than 1 LED would draw, so I'm suspecting that number is not right if you're running a couple of things permanently. ( not sure what those anti rust devices draw ).

If you have read it incorrectly and it is actually .07 amps or something ( 70 mA) ,which sounds more realistic to me, the battery should last 59 days. ( 8 weeks )

However that would be a very flat battery at the end of that time - to get it beyond the point where it won't have enough residual "oomph" to turn the starter motor would be considerably less time. ( perhaps half that ?)

So a few possibilities :

1. your meter is reading incorrectly and residual current drain is a lot higher.
2. something of a higher current is switching in and draining your battery when you are not "looking".
3. your battery is not fully charged to begin with.

You can get little "float" or "trickle" battery chargers that will keep the battery topped up - even a little solar panel would help - I've seen thme in places like SuperCheap and even K Mart.

[spudboy]

Try disconnecting your "electroninc rust proofer" thingy, and see if that improves things.

I leave my 110 for 3 or 4 weeks at a time and it starts happily, but it is bog standard and doesn't even have an alarm. If I try that with the Rangie, it will flatten the battery in 3 weeks so obviously more "stuff" drawing current.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Try disconnecting your "electroninc rust proofer" thingy, and see if that improves things.

I leave my 110 for 3 or 4 weeks at a time and it starts happily, but it is bog standard and doesn't even have an alarm. If I try that with the Rangie, it will flatten the battery in 3 weeks so obviously more "stuff" drawing current.

thanks for the ideas! :) I checked the charge this morning and it is charging like a Trojan. I drove it across town and it was consantly on 14.4 and only dropped to 13.9 at the end of the trip.

I will check all those things when I get the car back tonight or tomorrow.

[boggo]

Drive it more often!:p

[Scallops]

Our Defender also only gets driven occasionally. I too have noticed voltage drops in the cranker.

I'll check the voltage after a country trip when I get home with the vehicle turned off. The voltage will typically be 13.2 - 13.00 Volts.

After say 2 weeks of no use - it can be as low as 12.4V. The deep cycle battery (also initially 13.2 - 13.00V) is at this same voltage - we have the traxide too.

I haven't ever found the traxide isolate the cranker when the vehicle is sitting idle under the house, but 2 weeks is about as long as I can go without a drive in it! :D

[waynep]

The Traxide should disconnect the main battery from aux battery well before the starting battery gets below the voltage needed to kick over the starter motor. ( light will start flashing when this happens ). Mine always does this OK.

As an extra comfort measure, you might like to consider a separate switch in the + line that goes from your main battery to the Traxide, so when you're leaving it or a couple of weeks, so you can completely isolate that side of things manually.

You need to be completely sure only "essential services" are running when you have it in storage.

[EchiDna]

what's essential?
the clock? the radio presets? is there anything essential to keep powered up in a defender over time?

when my county is sitting around waiting for the next trip, the battery isolator key is removed and there is no current going anywhere - it can last months (it has!) without the key being turned over and without lost charge.

[JohnF]

I do not have the answer as to why your defender battery goes flat, but make a suggestion on how you can maintain the charge. Our local volenteer NSW Rural Fire Service trucks have a trickle charger conected to them, so the battery is always fully charged when the truck has to leave the station quickly to to get to a fire. See, once the truck has been put away, it could be a month or more before the truck next leaves the shed, so this maintains the battery during that time, so a flat battery never will stop us getting to a fire quickly. It does require parking the truck the same way each time, in order to plug the charger into the truck conection made for it.

[waynep]

what's essential?
the clock? the radio presets? is there anything essential to keep powered up in a defender over time?

when my county is sitting around waiting for the next trip, the battery isolator key is removed and there is no current going anywhere - it can last months (it has!) without the key being turned over and without lost charge.

Same with a TDi

In a TD5 would the main ECU under the seat need to remain powered ? I don't know what you'd lose if you powered it off for any length of time. Maybe Tombie or someone could answer that.

[Ruslan]

Bad earth may be?

How you've measured the parasitic load: from "-" of the battery and load or "body" as a ground and load? If it is bad earth contact, it can heat up and cause more parasitic usage of a battery.

[drivesafe]

I’m sorry folks, but I’m flat out trying to keep up with incoming orders ( and not succeeding ) so I’ll keep this to the basics.

Hi Captain, how long do you drive for when you actually take your rig out.

If you are not driving long enough, when you get home, your battery is still going to be anything but fully charged and this will easily allow the battery to self discharge to a low voltage in quick time.



Hi Scallops, when you measure a battery’s voltage just after you have turned the motor off you are actually measuring what is know as the SURFACE voltage and this is usually much higher than the battery’s actual State of Charge.

A fully charged battery will have a maximum voltage of 12.7 to 12.8, so your 12.4 reading shows your battery is holding it’s charge well.

Cheers

[scarry]

I have a clamp meter that reads dc as well as ac current.
Checked the d2 td5,and it draws .4 of an amp when turned off,& still warm.It may draw less when it completely cools down & goes to "sleep",will check it in morning.
The battery is 950 cca,& 200 minutes,whatever that means.
Hope this helps

Capt,dont know where you live,but if you want to test the fender with the meter,PM me.

As said by drivesafe,happens to my sons clubby,he doesnt drive it often,only on small trips,& the battery never gets to be fully charged,so it eventually wont start.

[spudboy]

I bought a "CTEK" battery charger yesterday to try and keep proper charge in the 130's battery as it doesn't get driven much.

It has some special 8-stage charging cycle and you can leave it connected to the battery indefinitely. It does desulphation and reconditioning and pulse charging at different stages, so am hoping it will keep the battery in good nick between drives.

There are small ones for under $100 but I got a mid sized one (can't remember the Amps) but they are around $250/$260. Got it from Battery World. If I got ripped off - please don't anyone tell me, because I just walked in and bought it without shopping around!

[waynep]

Bad earth may be?

How you've measured the parasitic load: from "-" of the battery and load or "body" as a ground and load? If it is bad earth contact, it can heat up and cause more parasitic usage of a battery.

Without wanting to be a nark, I don't see how a bad earth could increase current draw from the battery. A bad earth could only offer a higher resistance, which would decrease current ( as simple Ohm's law would dictate ). (Unless you also had some sort of direct short between + and ground but then it's the short that's the problem and not the earth.) A bad earth can cause numerous problems but it won't flatten the battery any quicker. Or am I missing something ?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

All - Thanks for your help! :)

Tim - The car usually gets 20-40 minutes drive when it does get out.

To the people suspicious of the earth - I did have that problem in the past when the dealer didn't do up the earth strap to the gearbox. That crippled the charging - all it would do was mid 12's. At the moment it's doing 14.4 volts on charge so I don't think that's the problem. I will check though.

My method when testing was to disconnect the negative to the cranking battery and put the ammeter between this. When I get the car back tonight or tomorrow I will re-run the tests with more time on my hands!

Thanks!

PS I agree I should just drive it more. I've been busy since we got back but we're ok now so I'll try and fix that problem.

[drivesafe]

Hi Captain, I would say a good long drive would probably solve your problem, say at least 4 hours total and you should then have a well charged battery.

Alternatively, as suggested above, hook up a battery charger if you know your not going to be driving the rig for a while.

You don’t need anything fancy or large, just make sure it is a multi stage charger so you can fit and forget. Jaycar have some 3.5 amp multi stage chargers for a reasonable price, they would do the job perfectly.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hi Captain, I would say a good long drive would probably solve your problem, say at least 4 hours total and you should then have a well charged battery.

Alternatively, as suggested above, hook up a battery charger if you know your not going to be driving the rig for a while.

You don’t need anything fancy or large, just make sure it is a multi stage charger so you can fit and forget. Jaycar have some 3.5 amp multi stage chargers for a reasonable price, they would do the job perfectly.

Well it will get a good charge at Fraser in only THREE WEEKS TIME


:banana::banana:

[Pomgonewalkabout]

I'm following this thread with interest as my Defender main cranking battery was flat on Friday. I charged it up using a charger for 24 hours and sadly this morning it is flat again. Previously I haven't driven it for about two weeks.

The battery is the original one in a 2002 model
I guess there could be a short draining the battery or it just requires replacing?

cheers Eric

[miky]

or it just requires replacing?

cheers Eric

Oh YES.

Around 7 years old? Gee, it has lasted very well.

[spudboy]

Most batteries these days only last 3 or 4 years at best, so getting 7 years out of your original one in exceptional. New battery I'm afraid.

[cewilson]

A lot of people have a bad habit of just checking the voltage on their battery when it is still, and then when it is running.

A good way to check your battery is to have it set to volts, and get someone else to start the vehicle for you. Watch the voltage drop that occurs. It'll tell you real quick if there's a problem.

Cheers
Chris

[Pomgonewalkabout]

Okay as I live out in the sticks I'm going to have to order a battery and get it freighted out.
Before doing this what are people fitting now?
My original is the Delphi 110AH so size wise it has to be the same as I currently have it turned parallel to the dashboard along with my Aux battery.

cheers Eric

[Lionel]

Okay as I live out in the sticks I'm going to have to order a battery and get it freighted out.
Before doing this what are people fitting now?
My original is the Delphi 110AH so size wise it has to be the same as I currently have it turned parallel to the dashboard along with my Aux battery.

cheers Eric

Check out

Supercharge Batteries - Car Batteries, Maintenance, Expanded Grid Technology (http://linux.supercharge.com.au/battery_search.php)

AULRO members can get a discount on Supercharge batteries, I think. Certainly used to be the case.

Their site recommends an MF88, but my Defender has an MF31-931 (factory fitted), which is more like the Delphi in yours. (My Defender is 2004, South African assembled).

Cheers,

Lionel

[alltrans]

This also may help to test if you have "leak" in the wiring system.

My County can stay idle for weeks at a time between runs and battery was dying, so off to change for a new battery -The following was demonstrated to me by auto elect when changing battery.

1) Ingition OFF

2) Disconnect battery

3) Re-connect battery - if it "sparks" at the terminals when re-connecting indicates a leak in the wiring system

Solution
1) Expensive: have auto elect check the for the leak, maytake 5 mintus of 40 hours ++

2) Less expensive alternative: auto elect fitted a battery isolator switch, when finished with vehicle turn it off (isolator switch) (no leakage and remains charged for weeks on end)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I haven't posted back on here for some time. I'm still not sure what the slow drain is.

One thing I am sure of though I think it has been a cumulative thing for me. Tim said that I need to drive for (4 hours I think) and he was right. The car has been away a couple of times lately and it seems to be ok for a while after a long trip. So I think part of the problem was it was only getting short drives around town.

Clearly I'm not going to go for a multi hour drive just to charge the battery, but I am trying to drive the car more. I love driving it - but I just don't really do very much driving when we are at home. I'll have to put it on the charger and let it run for a bit occasionally.

[idletorque]

Captain,

Alltrans is right about the 'leak', as my Defender suffers from that very problem. Same symptoms as yours - left for a couple of weeks and in my case dead flat battery is the result.

Got a mate to help me get to the bottom of it and through lots of fiddling found that a driving light circuit is the cause of the 'leak', or trickle discharge, but still not found out where in that wire system it is.

Looks like a re-wire in order.

Suggest that you get someone with a good multimeter and knows what they're doing and go through the circuits one by one. I started at the fuse box, pulling out fuses one by one and progressed from there. It can take a while, believe me, so mates rates is the best route there!!

Good luck with it!

Best regards,
Greg

[Blknight.aus]

I bought a "CTEK" battery charger yesterday to try and keep proper charge in the 130's battery as it doesn't get driven much.

It has some special 8-stage charging cycle and you can leave it connected to the battery indefinitely. It does desulphation and reconditioning and pulse charging at different stages, so am hoping it will keep the battery in good nick between drives.

There are small ones for under $100 but I got a mid sized one (can't remember the Amps) but they are around $250/$260. Got it from Battery World. If I got ripped off - please don't anyone tell me, because I just walked in and bought it without shopping around!

carefull....


the desulphation routine is, in a nutshell, a voltage spike. If you dont have filtered power supplies between the battery and some electronically technical items there is a risk that you might just let the smoke out of your electronics.

The kit ones from jaycar as well as some of their premade battery savers list a warning to this effect.

[Blknight.aus]

Okay as I live out in the sticks I'm going to have to order a battery and get it freighted out.
Before doing this what are people fitting now?
My original is the Delphi 110AH so size wise it has to be the same as I currently have it turned parallel to the dashboard along with my Aux battery.

cheers Eric

almost any N70 or N70z specification battery will do the job nicely.

you can also use the N68 series. Im using the same size and type battery as the cranker in Big Red and (now) Fozzy, when I purchased them I just said I want an N70 lead acid battery in the cheapest form you have it.

[spudboy]

carefull....


the desulphation routine is, in a nutshell, a voltage spike. If you dont have filtered power supplies between the battery and some electronically technical items there is a risk that you might just let the smoke out of your electronics.

The kit ones from jaycar as well as some of their premade battery savers list a warning to this effect.

So, you would be suggesting I disconnect the battery from the vehicle before charging with the DTEK charger.....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ok, I finally got a round to it.

I hooked my multi-meter up and checked the drain on the battery after another Fail To Proceed last weekend due to a flat battery.

Just a little background... if we drive the car and then leave it for 14-21 days (I know it's bad but it happens) then your chances of getting a start are minimal. At the 21 day end they are non-existant.

Anyway, I hooked it up and the drain was .08 of an amp. I started pulling fuses without seeing a change and got sick of it! I then dived under the bonnet and disconnected the electronic rust prevention system (it was under suspicion). The load dropped by .04 instantly. So, half the drain was the RPS and the other half is the normal car accessory load.

That's not all that much, but due to the design of the Traxide DBS the load comes from both batteries but it then isolates the main from the secondary, leaving the main to be drained until it can't start. :( (this is not in any way a criticism of the DBS). The car doesn't get driven all that much when it is driven so possibly the batteries aren't ever getting fully charged - this might be playing into the problem.

So, clearly I have four options here. These are arranged in order of likely-hood!

1. Buy a small backup charger and hook this into the car when it's not in use. This is the best option as it's not good for batteries being drained heavily.
2. Change the wiring so the ERPS draws from the auxillary battery. With the DBS this will stop the no-start problem, but I don't think it's good for the battery being flattened. It might get done, but probably in addition to 1.
3. Disconnect the ERPS entirely.
4. Drive more!

[Bearman]

Interesting, as I had been having similar problems with my 110 county battery. Also with an ERPS fitted. Never had this happen until I fitted the ERPS. After checking around I found mine was drawing similar amps. At the moment I am getting over the problem by using the vehicle a bit more often but like you I am wanting to sort this out, so I think the best way around it is to wire the ERPS up to the aux battery so that it doesnt affect the start one. At least it wont affect the starting then and if your aux is a deep cycle then it wont harm it unduly by being drained. Good luck.!

[Blknight.aus]

So, you would be suggesting I disconnect the battery from the vehicle before charging with the DTEK charger.....

yes and no, that would be the absolute safest way.

I would just find the primary accessory feed, work out it maximum draw and then disconnect that feed, install a choke and then connect it all back up.

when you hook up the charger to the battery go straight to the battery and the choke protects everything sensitive.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

yes and no, that would be the absolute safest way.

I would just find the primary accessory feed, work out it maximum draw and then disconnect that feed, install a choke and then connect it all back up.

when you hook up the charger to the battery go straight to the battery and the choke protects everything sensitive.

Reading all that I think I might be better powering the ERPS off the aux battery and just try and drive the thing a bit more.

[Blknight.aus]

its not that hard....

in its simplest form a choke is just a few turns of wire around a magnet.

in reality if its not a td5 and you dont have a fancy alarm or any wierd power supplies that drive laptops or the like then you probabley dont need it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

its not that hard....

in its simplest form a choke is just a few turns of wire around a magnet.

in reality if its not a td5 and you dont have a fancy alarm or any wierd power supplies that drive laptops or the like then you probabley dont need it.

It is a TD5! :(

I'll ask my automotive electrical engineer mate about this and see what he thinks.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Battery fighter (http://www.thebatterywizard.com/prod32.htm) make a small charger that just has a charge and float cycle. That may be adequate for the job and I can't see why it would cause any problems?

[Blknight.aus]

that shouldnt cause any problems, IME its the ones with the "battery desulphating" feature that can cause the problems... 12v ECU's dont like 70v spikes.

(not all desulphating systems are the same you might get away without having the protection there)

[Bearman]

Battery fighter (http://www.thebatterywizard.com/prod32.htm) make a small charger that just has a charge and float cycle. That may be adequate for the job and I can't see why it would cause any problems?

How does it work?. I cant see any power cord other than the 2 terminal connectors. Does it connect to the battery and use 12V power to charge the battery....Brian

[Captain_Rightfoot]

that shouldnt cause any problems, IME its the ones with the "battery desulphating" feature that can cause the problems... 12v ECU's dont like 70v spikes.

(not all desulphating systems are the same you might get away without having the protection there)

Yep, cool. I'm sure you're right about that :o

I'll just get the Battery Fighter Junior and hook it up. That should be more than adequate.

@Bearman - Just plug the thing in and hook on the aligator clips. It manages the rest. :)