Engine Brakes

[Jock The Rock]

Gday

Just out of pure curiostity I was thinking about it when I was driving today.

Does braking using the engine do any damage or cause excess stress to any of the drivetrain/engine?

I have taken the assumption that it mus'nt as trucks use them

But was just wondering....

Thanks

[Tote]

I would say no as long as you don't over rev the engine when using it to slow the vehicle. It has always struck me as odd that someone in the aftermarket has not designed exhaust brakes to fit to 4wd vehicles. I can see applications for them when towing heavy loads etc. They are available for F250 and Dodge ram diesels in the states but I've not seen anything locally available.
Regards,
Tote

[Blknight.aus]

do it right and you dont hurt anything, infact you can save wear on some components... (brakes and clutches to start with)

get it wrong and well bad things happen.


you can get exhaust brakes fitted if you want them. I have a couple Im yet to fit to a td5 and a sIII2.25D

trucks use them to save on the problem of brake fade assosciated with drum brakes used on long descents with heavy loads.

[camel_landy]

No problems with using engine braking at all... In fact, it's what Land Rover teach you to do when off-road.

M

[Blknight.aus]

Does breaking using the engine do any damage or cause excess stress to any of the drivetrain/engine?


I just re read it... With my best RON hat on.



Yes breaking the engine usually involves some damage....

























sorry thats been bugging me for hours.....

[Jock The Rock]

I just re read it... With my best RON hat on.



Yes breaking the engine usually involves some damage....

























sorry thats been bugging me for hours.....

:o :o :o

How could I :twisted:

Thanks for your expertise, Ive always wondered

[Landy110]

I've considered the addition of an exhaust brake for years because on the long steep decents the engine breaking tends to give way to the turbo and the old girl starts to gather speed alarmingly.
What do you mean by getting it wrong Dave???
Steve.

[Blknight.aus]

getting it wrong includes screwing the double declutch on the downshift. which shock loads everything.

down changing to early and then snapping the engine up over its designed over-run speed

being lazy on the down shift, screwing the rev match and taking it up on the clutch burning the clutch.

they are the main culprits.

[Graz]

Approx 5 years ago I sent away for and received a pamphlet from an outfit in the Cairns area that made a kit for 4WD's. He had one fitted to his Patrol and found it very good for the steep descent down from the Atherton Tablelands into Cairns.
He had an ad in one of the 4WD mags.

I still wonder if the extra pressure in the exhaust system would cause any problems with turbo seals and if the seals were in poor condition could hot exhaust gas enter the lubrication system and would it be an issue?

Regards

[hodgo]

Exhaust brakes are available for just about all types of engines big or small if you google exhaust brakes / Smith's engine brakes you should find all your answers. A engine brake as in what a big engines use ie Cummins, GM'S, Cats etc is different in that it turns the engine into a compressor by cutting fuel supply and altering valve timing.

Hodgo

[AussieAub]

Does braking using the engine do any damage or cause excess stress to any of the drivetrain/engine?

Having taken and passed both car and m/cycle advanced driving courses (in the UK, under instruction of the police), I was taught engine braking is the most effective and is highly advised (especially on m/cycles). The cars where manual transmission, bit more difficult in autos!

I also used to teach police m/cycle riders part-time, and Joe Public riders occasionally, and engine braking was very common practice, and a specific part of the course.

Cheers,

..:: KIEREN ::..
2000 Disco II Auto V8

[rangieman]

Having taken and passed both car and m/cycle advanced driving courses (in the UK, under instruction of the police), I was taught engine braking is the most effective and is highly advised (especially on m/cycles). The cars where manual transmission, bit more difficult in autos!

I also used to teach police m/cycle riders part-time, and Joe Public riders occasionally, and engine breaking was very common practice, and a specific part of the course.

Cheers,

..:: KIEREN ::..
2000 Disco II Auto V8
Funny thing i did a murcott advanced driving course at work , They say not to use gears and the engine for slowing in a car (braking)
When i questioned this that ive been driving trucks for years and using the engine and gears to slow down the guy,s responce was how can you you find 18 gears out of a 6 speed commodore:eek: his reason being brakes are cheaper to repair than the drivetrain
And decided to make fun of me and my method,s ,
My answer was i was taught how to drive this way by my dad and i still do and will continue to drive this way , Ive never had a drivetrain fail in the years of driving cars and trucks:p
What a bunch tosser,s these so called driving experts are :mad: ,
Expert = drip under pressure

[stirlsilver]

As I understood it. You can only fit exhaust brakes to an engine that does not have a throttle butterfly. Well, you could but the effect would be greatly reduced.

So it pretty much scratches all petrol engines and some of those strange diesel engines which have a throttle butterfly.

[JDNSW]

Like most people my age I learned to use engine braking as part of learning to drive. Brake fade used to be something that was expected, and you simply drove to allow for it, which included using engine braking to the maximum (maybe why the current set of pads and rear linings in the 110 are still in good condition after 300,000km?). Until the mid sixties for example, the most common Australian car, the Holden, had narrow eight inch drum brakes, which were not up to the job even before it started to put on weight - compare with the similar sized and powered Austin 16 my father had in the fifties with ten inch drums 50% wider, or the Simca V8 he had in the sixties with 11" drums wider again.

Also, with single circuit brakes, you learnt never to rely 100% on them. Proper use of engine braking will not cause any damage to the engine or transmission, although if you screw up you can do a lot of damage. I can remember one case when I was working in the Simpson Desert, one of our drillers stalled his Inter 190 6x6 on a sandhill - then declutched, started to run back, so took his foot off the clutch to use the (stalled) engine as a brake. Exit one clutch plate.

John

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Funny thing i did a murcott advanced driving course at work , They say not to use gears and the engine for slowing in a car (braking)
When i questioned this that ive been driving trucks for years and using the engine and gears to slow down the guy,s responce was how can you you find 18 gears out of a 6 speed commodore:eek: his reason being brakes are cheaper to repair than the drivetrain
And decided to make fun of me and my method,s ,
My answer was i was taught how to drive this way by my dad and i still do and will continue to drive this way , Ive never had a drivetrain fail in the years of driving cars and trucks:p
What a bunch tosser,s these so called driving experts are :mad: ,
Expert = drip under pressure

Guess thats why V8 Supercars and every other race car on a track always hold the clutch in and just use the brakes when they come steaming up to a corner........
And stability, what about the vehicle stability when you just hold in the clutch and jam on the brakes, its way better than using brakes and gears at the same time coz all that weight shifting to the front of the vehicle is perfect for making it 'dig in' and pull up straight and you dont want too much brake control at the rear coz it might make you miss the corner if the car is all straight like. You have a better chance of making it turn if its loaded on the front wheels!!!!!!

Yep, thats why they're 'advanced' driving instructors and probably all drive FWD sh*tboxes...... :D:D

[rangieman]

Guess thats why V8 Supercars and every other race car on a track always hold the clutch in and just use the brakes when they come steaming up to a corner........
And stability, what about the vehicle stability when you just hold in the clutch and jam on the brakes, its way better than using brakes and gears at the same time coz all that weight shifting to the front of the vehicle is perfect for making it 'dig in' and pull up straight and you dont want too much brake control at the rear coz it might make you miss the corner if the car is all straight like. You have a better chance of making it turn if its loaded on the front wheels!!!!!!

Yep, thats why they're 'advanced' driving instructors and probably all drive FWD sh*tboxes...... :D:D
:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::burnrubber:
Oh yeah i did bring up the race car thing , his answer was we are not driving race cars on a race track :eek:
And where do i work and what did i do at the time , a test driver for a well known car company at their proving ground:p:tease:
Yep tossers

[mcrover]

I dont think Im that bader driver but I would take Chris's advice any time.

He deffinatly knows what he's doing and any driving instructor that would say something like that needs a slap because it is 100% wrong.

Engine braking is THE best way to retard momenum.

It puts even load on all componants which equates to much less load on any one componant.

The thing is that what happens when your coming down some where l
like Mt Buller and you run out of brakes........Ive seen it happen on brand new Pajero's and Nissan Pulsars the most when I used to work up there.

I will tell you what happens, they panic and either run into the high side of the road, rolling the vehicle in the worst case senario or in the very worst case they go off the low side of the road........where there is a whole lot of nothing but air and a sudden stop.

Used to be 3 a year on average back in the 90's from people using their brakes all the way down the hill.

Another thing that can happen is they pull up at Mirrimbah store with the front brakes on fire.

I saw one car ge completly burned out because of that.

They had signs on the side of the road saying Manual and auto vehicles use lower gear and try to limit braking to a minimum.

I dont think they are there anymore but it was also on the sign at the gate.

Engine braking = good, everyone should do it :D

[Blknight.aus]

Funny thing i did a murcott advanced driving course at work , They say not to use gears and the engine for slowing in a car (braking)
When i questioned this that ive been driving trucks for years and using the engine and gears to slow down the guy,s responce was how can you you find 18 gears out of a 6 speed commodore:eek: his reason being brakes are cheaper to repair than the drivetrain
And decided to make fun of me and my method,s ,
My answer was i was taught how to drive this way by my dad and i still do and will continue to drive this way , Ive never had a drivetrain fail in the years of driving cars and trucks:p
What a bunch tosser,s these so called driving experts are :mad: ,
Expert = drip under pressure

I just ask them to explain how they expect to slow down if they get a brake failure on a curve on a wet road and whose driving technique will minimise damage when you come off of the road and whose technique at least has the possability of maintaining enough control to get through the corner.

[rangieman]

I just ask them to explain how they expect to slow down if they get a brake failure on a curve on a wet road and whose driving technique will minimise damage when you come off of the road and whose technique at least has the possability of maintaining enough control to get through the corner.
No chance of that the guy was a complete tosser;)
And i needed to pass the course for work ,so no need to get on the wrong side of the idiot , i just shut the f up
I certainly would,nt pay for one of these course,s
He did,nt like the fact i was doing his said advanced course while steering with one hand and changing gears with the other
Many a person spun out with 2 hands the wheel ,not me i was having fun with the power slides;)

[Landy110]

getting it wrong includes screwing the double declutch on the downshift. which shock loads everything.

down changing to early and then snapping the engine up over its designed over-run speed

being lazy on the down shift, screwing the rev match and taking it up on the clutch burning the clutch.

they are the main culprits.
Oh, that's all easy stuff I thought you were talking about something mechanical.
I would be using an exhaust brake which I would activate after decelerating and selecting the appropriate gear, very occasionally on long hills on the road but mainly in low low in the bush, we have some very long decents around here and she can start to get away from me unless I ride the brakes a bit and that can get interesting too but I know how to keep that under control.
Steve.

[Blknight.aus]

Oh, that's all easy stuff I thought you were talking about something mechanical.
I would be using an exhaust brake which I would activate after decelerating and selecting the appropriate gear, very occasionally on long hills on the road but mainly in low low in the bush, we have some very long decents around here and she can start to get away from me unless I ride the brakes a bit and that can get interesting too but I know how to keep that under control.
Steve.

NOOOOOO...

no using exhaust brakes in low range off road.... BAD.. do not pass go, do not change gears do not expect to maintain traction when you stomp on the exhuast brake in low range and the engine suddenly decelerates the wheels so fast they let go. Do expect the front short axle to give way if you try this loaded and skip the front end.

I might make an exception for low 4/5 but thats it... if your engine braking isnt enough in the bottom gears then you assist the engine braking by modulating the foot brake..

try that on if youve got a trailer pushing in low box and you can almost certainly expect the rear axle to want to be somwhere other than uphill of the front axle.

Even on the IMV drivers course they teach that you punch the first gear button, hit the brakes to make sure that its actually in 1st then turn the retarder off for descents.

[Panda]

Very interesting posts.:)

I always use engine braking on the SIII, never occurred to me not to. Not that I wouldn't trust the brakes on the SIII, oh no, of course not (where's the sarcasm button!).:D:angel:

[vnx205]

Very interesting posts.:)

I always use engine braking on the SIII, never occurred to me not to. Not that I wouldn't trust the brakes on the SIII, oh no, of course not (where's the sarcasm button!).:D:angel:

Thank goodness for engine braking on the Series III.

I still haven't forgotten the thrill of coming out of Bendethra in the Series III. After driving through the river at the start of the climb, I rode the brakes until they were dry. I tried them a couple more times and they felt good, so I thought no more about it until the first steep downhill bit. I had no brakes in spite of the fact that they had appeared to be well and truly dried out.

Lots of engine braking, white knuckles and adrenalin later we reached the bottom of the hill safely.

[Panda]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:
Yea, I can relate to that!

That's one thing they did get right, the SIII has REALLY good low gear ratio!!!

Never drive a SIII expecting the brakes to work :o:D


Thank goodness for engine braking on the Series III.

I still haven't forgotten the thrill of coming out of Bendethra in the Series III. After driving through the river at the start of the climb, I rode the brakes until they were dry. I tried them a couple more times and they felt good, so I thought no more about it until the first steep downhill bit. I had no brakes in spite of the fact that they had appeared to be well and truly dried out.

Lots of engine braking, white knuckles and adrenalin later we reached the bottom of the hill safely.

[Tank]

Thank goodness for engine braking on the Series III.

I still haven't forgotten the thrill of coming out of Bendethra in the Series III. After driving through the river at the start of the climb, I rode the brakes until they were dry. I tried them a couple more times and they felt good, so I thought no more about it until the first steep downhill bit. I had no brakes in spite of the fact that they had appeared to be well and truly dried out.

Lots of engine braking, white knuckles and adrenalin later we reached the bottom of the hill safely.
Allan, I say thank Christ for the Spoon Drains, lost the brakes (fluid boiling, crappy old fluid) a few times on Mericumbene and Dry Creek, without the spoon drains I'd be dead now, Regards Frank.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

OK, amidst all this talk of fitting Jake brakes to 4WD's, of which there is really no benefit unless you've suddenly developed a GVM of 20 tonnes between going shopping and walking back to the carpark, may I remind people, as it seems to be the last thing that anybody seems to think of, just watch all those American TV shows with cars spearing out of control down hills, that there is in place, operating independently of the normal brake system, a little thing called a
HANDBRAKE!!!!!!!!!!

FFS!!!

:p

[longreach]

Hi ,I drive a B double most days ,carting loads in excess of 50 tonnes,I travel down the toowoomba range nearly every day,the engine in my truck is a caterpillar ,I can come down the range in second intermediate ,in a eighteen speed fuller box,and never have to touch my foot brakes,the engine brake can hold me back all the way down the range,at the bottom my brakes are cold as...that's how good engine brakes are,best thing ever invented.........In trucks thy are a god send...keith:angel:

[Blknight.aus]

OK, amidst all this talk of fitting Jake brakes to 4WD's, of which there is really no benefit unless you've suddenly developed a GVM of 20 tonnes between going shopping and walking back to the carpark, may I remind people, as it seems to be the last thing that anybody seems to think of, just watch all those American TV shows with cars spearing out of control down hills, that there is in place, operating independently of the normal brake system, a little thing called a
HANDBRAKE!!!!!!!!!!

FFS!!!

:p

remind me to make sure that I am behind you in convoys...


I dont want to have to crane my neck to take pictures of the result of you trying that particular little trick on a long winding descent when you realise you have no real brakes left as you approach a hard turn at 50 with a trailer on, especially if youve been out playing in clay and its raining.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

remind me to make sure that I am behind you in convoys...


I dont want to have to crane my neck to take pictures of the result of you trying that particular little trick on a long winding descent when you realise you have no real brakes left as you approach a hard turn at 50 with a trailer on, especially if youve been out playing in clay and its raining.

A hard turn at 50??? I had my hard turn at 34 when I got divorced, then it all got better from there......... oooooooooohhhhh you meant 50KMH hard turn... No problem Dave, I just flick the "Carlos Sainz" switch on the dash and everythings sweet!!!!!! :D:p

[Blknight.aus]

you could...

But i didnt think he did it with trailers on so the software that the switch controls wont compensate for it...

If you like I can get you some explosive bolts that you can wire up to the switch so that when you hit it it kicks off the tow hitch allowing the software to function unimpeded....

[Panda]

Yes, the handbrake does get used around here. The brakes on the SIII were getting worse & worse. One day, Tony tells me the SIII has no brakes. No brakes I'm thinking, yea whatever.

We had it on the hoist, & Tony asked me to back it off. So I'm driving it off the hoist, & went to put my foot on the brake, & yep, it has no brakes, none whatsoever. (Next time he says it has no brakes, I'll remember he means it has NO BRAKES).

So on comes the handbrake. So rarely use it, had to remember where it is!What a handy piece of kit! (When it's working that is!):D


OK, amidst all this talk of fitting Jake brakes to 4WD's, of which there is really no benefit unless you've suddenly developed a GVM of 20 tonnes between going shopping and walking back to the carpark, may I remind people, as it seems to be the last thing that anybody seems to think of, just watch all those American TV shows with cars spearing out of control down hills, that there is in place, operating independently of the normal brake system, a little thing called a
HANDBRAKE!!!!!!!!!!

FFS!!!

:p

[George130]

I use the engine braking all the time in the 130. Catches people out all the time when I just slow without brake lights while they are crawling under the rear.

Had brake loss twice in my life once on the clide Mtn. We overtook a small truck on a blind corner while trying to stop the car:eek:. Lots of fun that one.
Second time was brake failure so I gunned it through an intersection just missed being t boned but it was better than rolling him. took me 2 blocks to pull the car up. Worst thing was I had new pads, calipers, rotors and fluid in the car and was on my way to fit it all. Turned out one of the lines had ruptured and the hand brake didn't work.:angel:

In low range normaly I find the ring is going a lot slower down hill than expected at I ofter have to accelerate.

[Jock The Rock]

Gday

Since fitting the snorkel Im convinced the engine brakes have improved? Am I imagining things or could this be possible

Thanks

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi ,I drive a B double most days ,carting loads in excess of 50 tonnes,I travel down the toowoomba range nearly every day,the engine in my truck is a caterpillar ,I can come down the range in second intermediate ,in a eighteen speed fuller box,and never have to touch my foot brakes,the engine brake can hold me back all the way down the range,at the bottom my brakes are cold as...that's how good engine brakes are,best thing ever invented.........In trucks thy are a god send...keith:angel:On a proper truck with a Caterpillar the engine breaking will be in the engine where the exhaust is retained in the cylinders by reducing the time the exhaust valves are kept open. This is very different to an exhaust gate style where a gate is added just after the manifold. The Cat engine is designed for them and the engine retarding is in the cylinder, not some aftermarket system adding extra pressure in components that were never designed to hold pressure.

Your service brakes are also full air where your engine braking will have no detrimental on your foot brakes. Not so with engine inlet generated vacuum boosted foot brakes, where exhaust gate engine brakes can have a major impact at the worst possible time.

[Blknight.aus]

in a proper truck....

it doesnt have to have a cat donk (tho I do like them)

you have either a jake brake which can be added to almost any diesel engine providing your willing to pay for the adaptoin of the add in bits that make it work to suit your particular engine.

or you can have a dynotard like whats in the Mack engines which has a funky setup with double profile on the exhaust cam and a hydraulically extendable push rod to make it work.


both do the same thing.

crack the exhaust valve open near the top of the compression stroke to dump the compressed air out the exhaust. this has a secondary bounus if your turbo charged.... it spins up the turbo which then pushes more air into engine like it was supposed to do as opposed to the turbo slowing down which is what happens with a post engine flap valve (it generally wont come to a complete stop)


as for the vac running out.. since most diesels dont have a vac generator built onto the intake that requires the normal flow of air to work but rely on some form of mechanical pump you're laughing.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...<snip>
<snip>... as for the vac running out.. since most diesels don't have a vac generator built onto the intake that requires the normal flow of air to work but rely on some form of mechanical pump you're laughing.That's right Dave, however some of the small diesels (not mentioning names) don't have a vacuum pump and in particular if someone reading the thread, was considering adding the exhaust gate on a V8 petrol then the vacuum booster is definitely an issue.

C Ya
Diana