Chainsaw Problem

[Redback]

I have a Shindawa 16" bar Chainsaw that has been giving me grief since we bought it 6mths ago.

A few times it has refused to start, first time it was the spark plug and this last time it was (according to the chainsaw workshop both times) the fuel being over oiled:eek:

Now i'm no expert, but i thought that a 2 stroke would take a variety of mixtures from 20.1 to 40.1 with no probs, but bloody thing seems it need a specific mixture or it fouls the plug and won't start, the last time it fouled the plug i changed to a new plug and it still wouldn't start.

Now even if it fouled the plug and i used the same fuel for the new plug it still should have at least tried to start, but no it showed no signs of starting, now at the moment it has a flat spot, it also splutters when starting and once you get it going it has the flat spot at around 1/4 throttle and if i just pull the throttle it dies then picks up, to me this means too rich.

Any help would be good, i've never had a 2 stroke this fussy, my elcheapo McCulloch has never been apart in 3yrs, so i expect a saw thats 3 times the price to be much better.

Baz.

[JDNSW]

Buildup of carbon round the exhaust port? Some two strokes are very sensitive to the shape of the port, and don't like even small modifications to the shape of it.

I'm not familiar with that saw, but it is probably fairly easy to take off the muffler and look at this.

John

[waynep]

How often do you mix up your fuel ?
2 stroke, in fact any stored fuel, will go "off" after a relatively short time ( or so I'm told ).

Have you got the mix ratios right ? 40:1 is 25ml of oil per litre of petrol

[Redback]

Buildup of carbon round the exhaust port? Some two strokes are very sensitive to the shape of the port, and don't like even small modifications to the shape of it.

I'm not familiar with that saw, but it is probably fairly easy to take off the muffler and look at this.

John

Thanks John,

Only mod done to the exhaust was the spark arrestor was taken off, otherwise the exhaust is good and it's original shape.

[Tusker]

I've got the same saw, and from the dealer, they can be cranky to start. Got the same flat spot when its cold. I think its easy to flood if you keep trying with the choke out. Mine needs choke, no-choke, choke, & then it fires.

Notwithstanding mine's a couple of years old now, never failed to get it going, still on the same plug. Yours does seem to be abnormally temperamental.

Regards
Max P

[Redback]

How often do you mix up your fuel ?
2 stroke, in fact any stored fuel, will go "off" after a relatively short time ( or so I'm told ).

Have you got the mix ratios right ? 40:1 is 25ml of oil per litre of petrol

I split the diff and run it around 30 to 35.1 approx 30ml to 1lt.

Baz.

[crump]

just make sure that when you get it started that you wear your chaps, gloves, steelcaps, helmet, face shield, safety glasses, sunscreen, ear muffs, long sleeved shirt tucked in, epirb, spotter,have watched the video"Understanding Chainsaw Safety", possess the current competency,zero blood alcohol, are not taking any medications that might make you drowsy, are fully hydrated, blah, blah, blah!!!!:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twist ed::D:D:D:D;):p(and dont mention it on the AULRO forum!!):angel::angel:

[Redback]

just make sure that when you get it started that you wear your chaps, gloves, steelcaps, helmet, face shield, safety glasses, sunscreen, ear muffs, long sleeved shirt tucked in, epirb, spotter,have watched the video"Understanding Chainsaw Safety", possess the current competency,zero blood alcohol, are not taking any medications that might make you drowsy, are fully hydrated, blah, blah, blah!!!!:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twist ed::D:D:D:D;):p(and dont mention it on the AULRO forum!!):angel::angel:

Yep do all that, it's a pain if i can't get it started though, cause i have to take all the gear off again, then put it back on again when i try again:D:p

[bblaze]

trick I used in my younger days with a hard to start lawn mower was to throw it at the shed wall (seemed to work)
Now serious, try changing the brand of 2 stroke oil you are using
cheers
blaze

[Xavie]

Not being failiar with the saw I find that on my saws if I follow how the manual says to start they would never start either. I usually do a few pulls with the choke and then go no choke and if it is not starting with no choke I go half.

When cold all my saws have had a flat spot but it sounds like yours happens all the time that just means always use full throttle:twisted:

Hope you sort it out. They are always spoken of so highly.

Xav

[JDNSW]

Thanks John,

Only mod done to the exhaust was the spark arrestor was taken off, otherwise the exhaust is good and it's original shape.

I was not referring to modifications, but to a buildup of carbon causing a change in the shape of the port opening into the cylinder.

John

[Redback]

I was not referring to modifications, but to a buildup of carbon causing a change in the shape of the port opening into the cylinder.

John


Yeah sorry, it's clean and in good shape, no build up at all.

Baz.

[Tusker]

I think you need to target the mixture. Mix up a batch that's exactly right with fresh fuel.

The gallon I mixed up must be over a year old now.. still starts with the aforementioned fiddling with the choke.

Regards
Max P

[weeds]

a mate of mine has the 446 ifrom memory, buys the oem oil and mixes it to the recommended ratio.....no problems to date and he has had it for six months or so.

[weeds]

a standard start up proceedure for chansaws and choke on, three or so pulls, when the chainsaw splutters like its about to start, choke in and she should start on high idle

[Redback]

I think you need to target the mixture. Mix up a batch that's exactly right with fresh fuel.

The gallon I mixed up must be over a year old now.. still starts with the aforementioned fiddling with the choke.

Regards
Max P

It is starting at the moment, i made up a new batch the other day, i'm going to do another batch a little leaner to see if it makes a difference.


a mate of mine has the 446 ifrom memory, buys the oem oil and mixes it to the recommended ratio.....no problems to date and he has had it for six months or so.

I have been using the Shindawa oil and i use premium ULP, not standard ULP, i figured it may be better.

Baz.

[Redback]

a standard start up proceedure for chansaws and choke on, three or so pulls, when the chainsaw splutters like its about to start, choke in and she should start on high idle

Yep have been doing that, the thing is the last time it wouldn't start i changed the plug, now by rights it should of at least showed a sign of starting if it was the fuel that fouled the plug, am i right in this assumption:confused:

Baz.

[101RRS]

With my whipper snipper and petrol blower I have found that when they have been sitting more than a couple of days the oil seems to come out of the fuel and settle so that when they do start they are very smokie - maybe the same is happening and the plug cannot handle the extreme oily mixture - simple suggestion is to shake the chainsaw up before use or drain out the fuel after use and only put in before each cold start.

Garry

[87County]

assuming from the prior discussions that the fuel mix is sorted, if you still continue to have problems, ignition modules can have a periodic failures (eg. work when cold and not when hot) and also the kill switch wiring and plug wiring can get pinched/broken on assembly and then give an intermittent/sometime fault.

hope it helps - Laurie

[rovercare]

50:1, but decent oil

I leave my fuel in the tank between uses and have NEVER had a problem

[Xtreme]

[quote=Redback;849479]It is starting at the moment, i made up a new batch the other day, i'm going to do another batch a little leaner to see if it makes a difference.
[end quote]

I think you're heading in the right direction here.

Once you've got it running, you'll then need to tune it using both the high and low speed jets to eliminate the flatspot (you need a good ear for this to be able to pick when it starts to 'fourstroke') and you'll achieve the 'snap' acceleration.

Roger

[Redback]

assuming from the prior discussions that the fuel mix is sorted, if you still continue to have problems, ignition modules can have a periodic failures (eg. work when cold and not when hot) and also the kill switch wiring and plug wiring can get pinched/broken on assembly and then give an intermittent/sometime fault.

hope it helps - Laurie

First thing i checked was the plug and the spark when i changed to the new plug.

We'll just have to see how it goes over the next couple of camping trips.

Thanks everyone.

Baz.

[isuzurover]

50:1, but decent oil

I leave my fuel in the tank between uses and have NEVER had a problem

x2.

[Redback]

50:1, but decent oil

I leave my fuel in the tank between uses and have NEVER had a problem

Yep have always done this, never done 50.1 but have always left the fuel in the saw between uses and never had a problem, but this saw is different for some reason, seems to be very sensitive to the slightess ratio change, which i have never struck in all the years of owning 2 stroke engined devices, i raced bikes for years and never had anything near the problems i'm having with this saw.

Very frustrating:mad:

Baz.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

but did you race them at 20-1???

[crash]

try changing the fuel filter, even if it looks whistle clean.
Other possibility is a pin hole in the fuel line - does it run better with a full tank of petrol and gets worse as the fuel level drops?

[Redback]

but did you race them at 20-1???

Yes i did, especialy if it was a long track where you were flat out for long periods (ie) Oran Park, Eastern Creek, Bathurst.

I seized my RZ250 at Oran Park right near the end of the straight, just got the clutch in before it locked the rear wheel up:o

Baz.

[discowhite]

Yep have always done this, never done 50.1 but have always left the fuel in the saw between uses and never had a problem, but this saw is different for some reason, seems to be very sensitive to the slightess ratio change, which i have never struck in all the years of owning 2 stroke engined devices, i raced bikes for years and never had anything near the problems i'm having with this saw.

Very frustrating:mad:

Baz.

ive used LRH's shindiawa, it had just been serviced by his agent, dont know what oil mix it was but it wasnt right, just had no guts and made any job painfull. i gave it abit of a tweek (hi/lo mixtures) to suit the mix it had. that made it abit different. he didnt notice it as much as he was only cutting up pallets.

only use premium fuel if the manual says so. premium WILL change the temperature of the cylinder and piston and can reduce compression.

as for the plastic case stihl, stihl did this to lower the cost to target the home user not the professional. i would not hesitate to buy a cheaper stihl. the main bennifit it has over alloy is the acidic sap from palm's wont eat the case.

you have seen how well the ms230 i have from work works, its 3yrs old now has plastic case and oiler and is abused by kiwi's:eek: coates hire had replaced their saws from the old 08S to the ms280.

if all else fails and you have lost faith with your agent, you know where i live:thumbsup:

cheers phil

[Redback]

Thanks Phil, i'll take you up on that, I haven't fiddled with it will it's been under warrenty.

You coming to Hill End this weekend, I'm pretty sure Mark is coming.

Baz.

[B92 8NW]

Does it have cats?

I've had similar problems with a Husqvarna 2stoke [brushcutter]. The newer Huskies have a cat that can become built up with carbon, it's essential to use the genuine "cat safe" oil and mix it pretty much bang on 50:1. It also doesn't like excessive idling or light work.

I found that it became easier to start after 10 or so hours, and its now got about 25 hours on it and starts easily. So maybe it just needs more time to run in. I also give it a good flogging now, get the EGTs up to clear out the cats:o

[rangieman]

just make sure that when you get it started that you wear your chaps, gloves, steelcaps, helmet, face shield, safety glasses, sunscreen, ear muffs, long sleeved shirt tucked in, epirb, spotter,have watched the video"Understanding Chainsaw Safety", possess the current competency,zero blood alcohol, are not taking any medications that might make you drowsy, are fully hydrated, blah, blah, blah!!!!:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted::twist ed::D:D:D:D;):p(and dont mention it on the AULRO forum!!):angel::angel:
There,s the bait , :wallbash:
Im ducking for cover:Rolling:

[hiline]

There,s the bait , :wallbash:
Im ducking for cover:Rolling:

now now Judy dont be like that Punch should be here soon :p;)

[mcrover]

Here and present :p

I'd be inclined to change the diaphram in the walbro carbi.

With fuel sitting in it (more common if you use premium) it can harden the diaphram which makes them hard to start and easy to flood.

You mixture should be no richer than 40:1....this isnt a motor bike and the cylinder is tiny in comparison and doesnt need as much oil for lubrication as a larger bore and heavilly loade 2 stroke bike motor.

If the carbi diaphram is stuffed you will notice that when you adjust the mixtures you wont get a lot of fine adjustment, thats a sure sign you need to spend the $5 or so on a diaphram and fit it and re balance the carbi.

The correct meathod for starting just about any 2 stroke is as follows :

1. Fill with fresh fuel (or top up with fresh fuel) and shake well.
2. Turn choke to full on and lock the throttle lock on
3. give 3 ONLY good pulls in quick succession (may kick during this stage, if it does kick go to next step)
4. Turn choke to half and throttle lock should disenguage
5. Give another 3 only pulls in quick succession (should start during this stage)
6. If it hasnt started or tried to start then turn choke completely off and hold throttle full on and give 3 pulls or so to clear the cylinder and flush with air.
7. go back to step 2 and try again

I think everything else has been mentioned

Nothing wrong with Shindaiwa stuff, I recon it is as good if not better than some of the brands out there which are quite popular.

As far as the Catalysts on the Husky's, you mix cant be any richer than 50:1 or else it will block the catalyst I believe.

I havnt had anything to do with them yet but there is a lot of chatter about them on a couple of other (industry) forums.

[B92 8NW]

As far as the Catalysts on the Husky's, you mix cant be any richer than 50:1 or else it will block the catalyst I believe.

You believe, I confirm:D. The voice of hamfisted mixing!

But they run so clean, well worth it. Amazingly smooth for a two stroke.



Christ do they rev!!!:burnrubber:

[mcrover]

You believe, I confirm:D. The voice of hamfisted mixing!

But they run so clean, well worth it. Amazingly smooth for a two stroke.



Christ do they rev!!!:burnrubber:

You want to try the new Stihl 4mix saws, they have heaps of guts and they are a lot quieter than the straight 2 strokes.

I tried one about a month ago with a 24" bar cutting stumps and it seemed to work about half as hard as the MS350 was although thats a small saw with a 24" bar on it anyway.

Yeah I said I believe because I havnt had any dealings with them hands on so to speak, just second hand info.

Most of the folks that have got them on the other forums recon it just requires getting used to not being heavy handed with the oil and to use the right oil and fuel and they work great.

[DeeJay]

Just to be different...
Is the spark plug giving off a nice fat spark??
All the symptoms are there for a piddly spark that works ok at high revs but oils up easily, then difficult to start next time.
I've got a Husky CDI sitting on my workbench coz mine was using plugs up. I'd buy a new plug and it was OK for a while then all the symptoms you describe. It could'nt be the mix as I was running the mower and a similar husky on the same fuel.
When I compared the spark between the two Huskies it was obviously insufficient spark, not the flywheel clearance or flywheel magnetism, hence the new CDI.
Its job number 32 on the list :angel:

[Rosco]

Mate ...

A while back I had a 2 stroke mower that was a mongrel to start.

Herself bought me a can of "Start Ya Bastard" from Repco. Just aerostart under a different brand, but crikey ... did it work.

I reckon it'd fire up a corpse.

Wouldn't recommend it for anything you value ... but by the sound of it ... in this case ... why not give it a go ... :twisted::angel::wasntme:

[rick130]

Where are your carby settings now ?
ie. how many turns out are the low and high speed needles ?
Where does the book suggest they should be as a starting point ?

Too lean on the low speed can make it stumble and falter under full throttle acceleration from idle until the high speed circuit kicks in.
In karts years ago we used to keep opening the low speed needle coming off a corner until the stumble disapeared.

Don't go changing mix ratios without re-tuning the saw either. Mixing a richer fuel/oil ratio, while giving the saw an extra slug of oil can actually lean it out unless the low and high jets are opened to compensate.
This is because you are displacing fuel with oil in the mix. In an extreme case it can result in a lean seizure, and all you've done is mix a richer fuel/oil mix.

[awabbit6]

Now i'm no expert, but i thought that a 2 stroke would take a variety of mixtures from 20.1 to 40.1 with no probs, but bloody thing seems it need a specific mixture or it fouls the plug and won't start.

I agree. It is only 6 months old. It should be able to tolerate slight variations in the mix and still run. You are not inexperienced with 2-strokes and you know there is a problem with the saw. The problem you have is convincing the supplier that it is faulty.

If there is no pattern to the fault then I suspect that it is an intermittent ignition system problem. These are often the most difficult to sort out.

Why not leave the saw with them for a week and get them to start it once a day. Surely the fault will appear in that time.

FWIW I have a Shindaiwa brush cutter that has given no trouble at all. I never drain the fuel and have never changed the plug - I haven't even check the air filter. It is always surprisingly easy to start - let it kick on full choke, then one pull on no choke. I haven't met a 2-stroke yet that won't start using this technique.

[953]

I think they`ve given u enough 2 think about but I would suspect the problem may lie in the tuning of the carby.
Just a note about 2/stroke oils. Each manufacturer has their own ratio 4 their own oil & thats what u should stick 2. We run 2/stroke machinery just about all day every day at 100/1:o.The oil we use is Opti2 & have run all our machines on it 4 nearly 5 years. Our machines produce very little smoke & we hardly ever need 2 clean the exhaust ports.
Damo, could u give me the sites of the small machinery forums u mentioned, sounds interesting:). The latest shindawa machiones with the C4 technology r working well 4 us at the moment (the 2/stokes with valves:eek:) but Id like 2 read other ppl`s opinions.
Cheers Dean.

[Blknight.aus]

one last trick I use on the rare occasions I have to break out my long bar cullcok is to pull the plug out, turn it over till its on BDC point the blow torch down the cylinder while I sort out PPE and how Im going to do the cuts with the bugger, heat the plug, screw it together, kill the torch, fill it with fuel, squirt brake clean down the air filter and give it a pull with the throttle on flat out...

when it kicks, fires (usually on the first pull) and runs up to full noise I just hold it flat out and get on with the cutting. once its warmed up (usually after the first cut) it'll idle and plays nice all day till it gets cold again.

given it was a freeby saw that I cant get parts for and I only ever break it out on big things that Ive been fore warned about Its not that much hassle and yes I know its about the cruelest way to get a 2 stroke going.

[rick130]

If it's only six months old, another thing to get the dealer to check is the blow off/pop off pressure in the carby.

Too low and it'll be too rich, too high and it'll be hard to start as there isn't enough fuel pressure to overcome the vacuum and spring pressure.
If the lever height is off, it'll create a similar problem. Too high and it'll flood, etc.

It wouldn't be the first time a new carby has been delivered with the pop off or lever height out of whack.

[rick130]

one last trick I use on the rare occasions I have to break out my long bar cullcok is to pull the plug out, turn it over till its on BDC point the blow torch down the cylinder while I sort out PPE and how Im going to do the cuts with the bugger, heat the plug, screw it together, kill the torch, fill it with fuel, squirt brake clean down the air filter and give it a pull with the throttle on flat out...

<snip>
and yes I know its about the cruelest way to get a 2 stroke going.

:eek: Not to an old Mc Dave.....

if it's one of the newer plastic junk things, then that's OK

If it's a solid oldie, you can still get bits for them if you know where. There are a few Mc fanatics left in Oz that squirrel bits away.

BTW Mc is totally owned by Husky worldwide now, including the US where a Taiwanese firm made them since Mc US went belly up. (Electrolux/Husky bought the name for the ROW when Mc went bust)

[Blknight.aus]

nahh, I think my Macs are like old rovers,,, they have quirks but they keep going

If its lucky the big bar one comes out twice a year... I'll be dead long before it gives in completely

[Redback]

Well thanks very much everyone, i think i should be able to get it going better with all this info, we bought this saw because of the reputation that Shindawa has, it was a toss up between that and a Husky.

Over the weekend i will have a play and see if i can fine tune it too run properly.

Thanks again all.

Baz.

[mcrover]

Damo, could u give me the sites of the small machinery forums u mentioned, sounds interesting:).
Cheers Dean.

Here is the only one you will be able to get into as you need to be working in the golf industry and a paid up member of the other 2 to get entry.

http://www.lawnsite.com/index.php

I will however get any interesting info off those sites and post it up if I can get permision.:D

[Redback]

OK just a bit of an update on this, I persevered for a few more months and finally the problem was solved, the guy at the mower shop was at his wits end and finally gave up trying to fix it, in the end he called Shindawa Aust and left it up to them to sort out and left them with a quote I said to him (the bloody elcheapo Ebay chainsaw I bought for $50 is better than this Shindawa)
Well with this Shindawa sent out a brand new Carbi, stating that there was a fault in some of the carbis fitted to these saws, causing starting problems:mad:

New carbi in, saw all good, finally:)

BUT, because of this, we still cannot trust this saw, even though it runs fine now, apart from a couple of times while camping it took a while to start, actually it would not start on the first day we were camped with Dullbird at Jelore, it did start the next day though, problem was we were leaving to go home:twisted::twisted:it just doesn't seem that good of a saw and this is supposed to be a professional saw:eek:

So after taking our Ebay saw away with us for most of our camping trips and leaving the Shindawa at home, we decided to bite the bullet and get something a little bit lighter.

So here it is:D
Stihl MS250 Woodboss easy2start
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/841.jpg

I have used this about 5 or 6 times now and I have to say, it is one very impresive saw, considering it is not a professional saw, very happy indeed:D

Baz.