Coopers LTZ - anyone tried them??

[Brick]

Was at the 4WD show in Perth today, and looking around at what was on display tyre wise as I am due to replace my OEM Wranglers shortly. Tyrepower had some Cooper LTZ 285/60/18 on display. Apparently only new to Aust and overall diameter is 799mm. From the various posts I have seen this size should not rub. Has anyone got them on their D3 yet and prepared to give a view?

Not overly worried about peoples view of Coopers, just on the fit, grip and handling of the LTZ.

Thanks

[Slunnie]

So many traits of this tyre tread design which are just typical Cooper

How is this tyre rated? Is has sipes that are reminiscent of the edge blocks on the Cooper ST. :no2: It looks like a AT that has been designed to be quiet generally, but with scallops which are typically seen in MT's. It's almost like they've had another stab at redesigning at tyre that will cross between the ATR and the ST.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/425.jpg

[Leo]

If you visit any of the US forums, you'll see that many guys (D3 and RRS) love these tyres - in fact I've never heard a bad word against them. Same on the Landcruiser forum (ih8mud.com).

They have a strong sidewall, good grip and fit the D3 and RRS. I'm waiting for them myself.......

On a side note - there are some good photos on some of the D3 and RR sites of these tyres in action.

[trynian]

Was at the 4WD show in Perth today, and looking around at what was on display tyre wise as I am due to replace my OEM Wranglers shortly. Tyrepower had some Cooper LTZ 285/60/18 on display. Apparently only new to Aust and overall diameter is 799mm. From the various posts I have seen this size should not rub. Has anyone got them on their D3 yet and prepared to give a view?

Not overly worried about peoples view of Coopers, just on the fit, grip and handling of the LTZ.

Thanks


Some info here.

NextStepDesigns Blog Archive LR3 wheel & tire specifications and options (http://blog.nextstepdesigns.com/?p=46#comments)

[peterpam]

If it Coopers it will be good. I have consistently got 120,000km from Coopers on a Nissan Patrol and when mine wear out on my LR they will be replaced with Coopers. Just have the right pressures for the situation you are in.

Peter

[rick130]

If it Coopers it will be good. I have consistently got 120,000km from Coopers on a Nissan Patrol and when mine wear out on my LR they will be replaced with Coopers. Just have the right pressures for the situation you are in.

Peter

Hmmm, using them here we never got anywhere near as good a run out of ST's compared to BFG AT's on a GU Patrol. About 75,000km and they were illegal at that.
Never abused (SWMBO's vehicle) and pressures always at the optimum for the conditions.
The micro cracking in the sidewall that appeared two weeks after fitting scared the hell out of me too, although it never became worse or appeared to effect the tyre until they were replaced.

A lot of people on this forum believe Cooper is a swear word when it comes to tyres. there appear to be lots of delaminations and straight failures.

I really wanted to like the ST's, and they worked well as an AT, better IMO than the BFG's, but we've found the BFG's longer lived for less $.

[peterpam]

I actually rang Coopers to get the correct pressures for each situation. These were quite a lot different to what the tyre dealer told me, hence to excellent milage and consequently a customer for life.

Peter

[Brick]

LTZs are going to be fitted on Fri morning. Heading down south on the weekend, unfortunately no time for any off road work. Will post thoughts on handling and noise next week.

Hopefully doing some off road work the following weekend (boys trip to Wedge - all sand) so will start to get some idea of how they will perform.

Cheers

[JAMS]

Hey Guys,
First timer as far as posting things on here and owning a D3.
Need to find a decent tyre as i live in the North West and have been researching like a madman for the last 2 months This forum has been a huge source of topics. I need to know if the LTZ coopers will fit width wise as i think they may rub on the front steering control arms Noticed the post from Cameron and would love to know how he went, as I have the TDV6 SE MY08 as well.

[Brick]

Well the tyres are on and here are my impressions.

- looks: good, fill the arches nicely (refer photos)
- handling: good, seem to go around a nice set of S bends near home better than the Wranglers
- noise: more than the Wranglers but not as bad as a set of mudders, or the STs I had on a Patrol
- weight: seem to be heavier than the Wranglers. Noticed seems to require more right foot to get rolling from a dead stop, small impact on fuel economy
- clearance: good, does not rub even when on full lock at access height

Will see how they go offroad on the weekend. Will be mainly sand driving and some limestone cap rock around Lancelin and Wedge. I have previously got in excess of 110,000km out of a set of STs, but checked pressure regularly and balanced every 25,000km. Hope these last as long, but time will tell.

Cheers

[redfender]

are they 18 inch and what did they cost????

[Brick]

Redfender, yes they are 18 inches (285/60/18). Paid $395 each including fitting, balancing, etc. This was the price I was quoted at the 4WD show. At that price I hope to get some decent mileage from them.

Drove to Wedge and back this weekend and they went very well. Dropped the pressure to around 20psi for the run up the beach. Was like a highway and probably didn't really need to drop pressures, but there were some sections near Narrow Neck that were fairly chewed out. The tyres went very well through the sloppy parts, didn't want to duck and dive with ruts that criss-crossed the direction we were heading.

[JAMS]

I am stoked to hear that the LTZ's fit and are going well, they are the only tyre that seemed to go close to fitting and that i could access up here but at $420 (yes $420 thanksverymuch ) i need to be sure that they wont rub .
Brick is there any chance you could give me some sort of distance between the tyre and front suspension if you reach over top of tyre and try to slide your hand between with the standard 255/60 18 i can just pass my fingers though ~ 10-15mm so the extra 30mm width of the LTZ's has me worried

Cheers
Aaron

[Brick]

Aaron,

It is close, between 5 and 10mm. On having a look at the inside of the tyre it shows no signs of rubbing as yet including after around 60kms of driving at 20psi on sand and limestone cap rock. Have done around 1000kms so far since fitting and have not had an issue other then the weight/fuel economy trade off mentioned in an earlier post.

Cheers

[Warrigal57]

Gents

I have been running Cooper ST 265/70 x 17 on my diesel S model, with air suspension. These tyres are 803mm in diameter - compared to the 763mm diameter of your standard tyre (255/60 x 18) - and compared to 799mm for a 285/60x18.

I completed a 7000km trip with a full load (5 pax and roof rack) from Brisbane to Uluru and back via the Simpson in Sept this year, without problems, but....

The 265/70 will occasionally rub the inside of the rear guard under compression eg a load on board and some largish bumps at speed. If you look inside the rear wheel arches you will see that there is a step/projection into the arch that reduces clearance by about 50mm - and the larger tyres may contact this. I haven't experienced any tyre damage as a result of the contact, contact apppears fairly light but there is body sheet metal under the plastic wheelarch. Something to watch for.

PS: the car drove very well on gravel with the larger tyres, and we were the only vehicle to complete the trip without a flat though there were some chips out of the rears.

[stu bear]

Do these come in a size other than 285/60/18 as this size would be illegal here in Queensland unfortunately.

[CaverD3]

They look to be way oversize to me.
Brick, check the plastic bulge in the front of the wheel arch, that's where they will rub.

[Tombie]

IMO and experience I would never, never ever trust a Cooper tyre.

Cooper and Mickey Thompson are owned in the USA by the same co-op. Yet manufacture at different factories / locations in the US.

Several Mickey T guys I have spoken to tell me they wont even 'talk' to the Cooper factory guys...


A good friend owns a 4wd specialist tyre store in Adelaide...
He will NOT sell Cooper tyres - But is the largest seller of Mickey T in SA and at one stage was National Seller.... This is by choice, he makes less margin on a MickeyT than any other brand he sells... He can make more on the Coopers.... He wont...


Would any of you trust your $60k+ vehicle to retreads? Coopers arent much better....


No-one in our entire 4wd club runs Coopers with good reason.. Several punctures, blow outs and a few delamination incidents put paid to that.

Cooper tyres are pushed as a 'premier' brand in Australia... IN the USA they are regarded as rubbish....

The Australian importer sells them as 'bread and butter' and refers to Mickey Thompson tyres as their "Premium" line....


BTW - There is a FC-II that will fit on listed... I will chase the details Monday and report back...

FC-II with hard use has given me 80,000km and being removed as 5mm tread is not enough for offroad use...


I understand the factory tyres arent any chop offroad, but Coopers isnt a step forwards.... Sideways or backwards maybe.... I wouldnt put my faith in them nor trust my vehicle, my life, or that of my family to Coopers.

[Leo]

Have been up and down Africa (literally) on Cooper STTs on previous car - no problems at all. The Cooper LTZs get nothing but good reviews in the US (I'm yet to come across a bad review), Middle East and here - on and off-road. The Cooper STs are good in some conditions, but not the type you get in Australia - for that they made the Cooper STCs (same tread pattern, different compound).

Several people in the US use Cooper LTZs on their L322 Range Rovers, Sports, D3s, new Landcruisers etc. It isn't seen as a bad make - a bit cheaper than comparable Nitto tyres, but not much difference in the tyre itself.

[Will]

Just a quick comment on Coopers, (not wishing to start a lengthy discussion).
I have used three sets exclusively on the Tdi 300 over ten years (ST) with a lot of very harsh treatment. Now running ST's on the D3 with nearly 30,000km on them, also a lot of van towing. To date they are wearing perfectly and would have at least 75% tread left. Always found them to be a great wearing tyre.

[def90]

G'day Brick....how are the LTZ's coming along?

[PCH]

I had the 245/70/17 ST's a few years ago on the D3 and after 20K km Cooper replaced them on a prorata basis because they chipped and tread blocks tore off after some very rocky 4WD trips. I had the STT's fitted in the same size and they have faired much better and I'd get the STT's again however I did look at the Mickey T MTZ's but they are just too big to fit in the spare wheel well.

If Cooper made the ST's (suitable for the D3) in the anti-chip compound I think they would fair much better off-road like the STT's particulary in rocky terrain.

Chris

[Brick]

Hi guys. Responses to a few of the queries below.

CaverD3 - no rubbing as yet noted on the wheel arch inner liners. IMO 800mm rolling diameter would be the maximum size before rubbing occurs.

Stu Bear - I am not aware of any other sizes in 18 inch diameter. I would prefer a 255 width if it was available.

Tombie2/Leo/Will - tyre opinions are like the proverbial a**hole, everyone has one. My own experience with Coopers has been good, with in excess of 100,000kms out of a set of STs on a Patrol. I found checking pressures regularly and balancing/rotating every 25,000kms really helped. I have used Michelins on other vehicles and was happy with them, but not the POS they fit standard to the D3.

I have now covered approx 6,500 kms so far. Other than my trip to Wedge, I just haven't had time to do some reasonable off road work. Wear seems to be okay at present. Nothing really to put me off using them again at this point.:BigThumb:

Cheers,

[def90]

I was a bit excited about these LTZ's but then I read the note about snow chains...Noted that snow chains will fit on a max 265 tire. I know I will probably never need to fit chains, but it may sway my decision to get the AT2's.

Anyone have any pics of there D3 with AT2's?

[Brick]

Def90,

Got to say that snow chains do not get much consideration in WA. Have now covered just over 9000kms, and have lost approx 1mm of tread in wear. This would approximate to about 70,000kms of life based on that wear rate. Still haven't got to do a lot of offroad work as yet to see if that accelerates the wear.

Cheers

[Tombie]

Def90,

Got to say that snow chains do not get much consideration in WA. Have now covered just over 9000kms, and have lost approx 1mm of tread in wear. This would approximate to about 70,000kms of life based on that wear rate. Still haven't got to do a lot of offroad work as yet to see if that accelerates the wear.

Cheers

Just FYI

Wear rate increases as tyre ages... Not linear!!

[def90]

Thanks Brick - in comparisson, I do quite a bit of time up in the high country with winters at Mt Buller so its a pretty strong consideration...

BTW, no rubbing or adverse issue for you? I reckon they look great and have read some very good reviews just recently....

[Brick]

Def90,

No rubbing as yet, although as noted in earlier post the tyre does get a little close to the steering bits and pieces on the front at the top of the top of the wheel.

Cheers

[Petian]

I have had Cooper LTZ's 285/80/18 fitted on the Disco 3, and have had no problems at all:). except for bogged on Laureton beach (my fault didnt lower the pressures enough) Been from ACT to Perth and back via the black top and about 1000klms of loose gravel and stone. Just had 3 days in Abacrombie NP over loose shale and stone at 30 lbs and the tyres performed beautifully:D. They cost $400 fitted in ACT ouch:o.

[def90]

G'day Brick - did your spare fit underneath with the LTZ's fitted?

Thanks!!

BTW, I pulled this off the Disco3 site and it showcases the LTZ on the Landy's over there....

http://www.coopertire.com/FI_Uploads/Document/Cooper%20Zeon%20LTZ.pdf

[Brick]

Def90,

No, I had already fitted a Kaymar rear bar and wheel carrier as I just about ripped the OEM bumper off when the mud flap caught on a rock doing a creek crossing. I would think that it would be a pretty tight fit from what I have read on other threads/forums.

[rob4play]

Hi all as in my introductions post just fitted the LTZs last week - all great so far, The big test will be Birdsville trip end of July from the Gold Coast towing the off road camper. Will be fully loaded and carrying 2 big 18yr olds as well. See attached photos in http://www.aulro.com/afvb/introductions/80676-3-new-tdv6-d3s-birdsville-suggestions-tips-please.html
Cheers
Rob

[CaverD3]

You'll need a 'Mitch Hitch' for that thrip then. :D

[Brick]

Rob4play,

I agree with CaverD3, fit the Mitchell Bros hitch. If nothing else you wont have the OEM hitch dangling down below the rear bumper just waiting for an unsuspecting rock to clout.

Good luck with the trip. Will be interested in seeing how the LTZs go across that country. Am thinking about a trip from Perth to Bris next year via the centre. Last time I did that country I was running Cooper STs on a LC.

Cheers

[rob4play]

Hi Goys - thanks for the input and I guess you mean one of these - see pic. Nearly did not trade the 2004 D2 TD5 till I found these were available as could not see how I could tow the off road camper trailor with the OEM fit. First mod that went on never even tried fitting the original.
Has anyone tried the Mitchell - off air solution, pretty expensive but technically great solution as long as it does not interfere with warranty I guess?
Cheers
Rob

[gps-au]

flat rob, or only way it would fit ?

[CaverD3]

Like any aftermarket mod the air lift kit could affect warranty if they can prove it was the cause of the failure. The kit is designed so the actuators are removable via 'quick fit' connectors in the event of any suspension issues.
The kit also gives an air outlet off the tank for pumping up the tyres, which can be removed if there isa suspension issue but needs to ne unscrewed.

[rob4play]

flat rob, or only way it would fit ?
All the reports and posts state cannot fit the spare unless deflated so I was perepared for that. As it took approx 2.5 hours for fitting, balancing of all wheels then wheel alignment and it was going to be a tight and fiddly fit I suggested to the Tyre Dealer we deflate totally. This weekend I aim to drop it and experiment with how much air it can take and still fit. Not ready for a rear wheel carrier at this stage.
Just means I need to carry the air compressor all the time. For this trip I will most likely bung in the trailor or modify the trailer to mount opposite the trailor spare see pic - D2 was pretty new then no bullbar.

[rob4play]

Like any aftermarket mod the air lift kit could affect warranty if they can prove it was the cause of the failure. The kit is designed so the actuators are removable via 'quick fit' connectors in the event of any suspension issues.
The kit also gives an air outlet off the tank for pumping up the tyres, which can be removed if there isa suspension issue but needs to ne unscrewed.
Thanks Caver - found out today one of the other guys going on the trip has ordered the Mitch off air kit. I had disconted as it showed as $1280 now $330. Must have had an error on their web site and I should have rung up. Might have to sell the ARB to my son who has the D2V8 later on and go for the Mitch. Did not see any mention of the lift kit though. Have seen plenty of posts on that and not a bad idea for me with the LTZs and the trailor. Do you run it?
Cheers
Rob

[CaverD3]

See this months Overlander, page 16 ;)

The kit for $330 I think would be the kit just for air off the tank.

[rob4play]

The kit for $330 I think would be the kit just for air off the tank.[/QUOTE]

See this months Overlander, page 16 ;)

The kit for $330 I think would be the kit just for air off the tank.
Thanks Caver funny could not find any reference in this backcopy or Landrover Owners Club Review. Just kidding got these off my father now 88 who drove his through Africa, Europe then later us in North QLd - some good sories there. I better get the latest copy tomorrow.

[rob4play]

Picked up the July edition today go Disco - on top again!
Page 16 report looked promising enough I gave then a call re the suspension kit but they are quite some time away yet. Should be a great option.
Cheers
Rob

[AnD3rew]

Got the dealer to put General Grabber tyres on my D3 when I got it new about 3 weeks ago. Obviously very early days yet but so far they seem good they have a little bit of noise but hardly noticable, the handling is great even in the wet, and the very small amount of rocky and sloppy stuff I have managed to find so far seemed to give them not trouble at all

[CaverD3]

Picked up the July edition today go Disco - on top again!
Page 16 report looked promising enough I gave then a call re the suspension kit but they are quite some time away yet. Should be a great option.
Cheers
Rob

Not that far really.;) A few out at the moment for testing in more extreme conditions. If you left your name at Mitchell Bros I am sure they will let you know when they have some in.

[rob4play]

Just an update on the LTZs - dropped the spare on the weekend and inflated to 20 psi - slid back in and out no problem so left at that. Have the compresser with me at all times so happy with that. Ride well, track well, turn in well - they guys seem to have done a really good job on the alignment and wheel balance. A bit of hum at high freeway speeds if you listen for it with radio off, wife couldn't tell any difference. Just gives the satisfaction of some real tread at last. Stopped beautifully no tyre noise just a fint monmentary hint of ABS an a freeway high speed stoppage. Threw all the heavy mud off straight onto the concrete drive from the back of the property i.e. no clogging. Running at 42 rear and 40 front pretty much as I have run Goodrich ATs on previous Discos. Tyre Dealer had set to the placard 36 and 33 which while giving a nice soft and still responsive drive would I amm sure result in premature wear.
Have had minor rubbing as reported in the US - planting it through a roundabout and at the change of direction to exit - minor rubbing evidence at front of rear wheel wells on the bulge at around 3 o'clock looking at from driver side and as reported.
However have not noticed any when driving over speed bumps rather fast or when towing the camper trailer on a test this afternoon which included some rough ground and speed through a failrly vicious dip which tests most cars suspension and clearance if driven through at speed. Birdsville coming up and the real test.
Might get it remapped during the pre trip vehicle test!!!

[JAMS]

Update on LTZ Coopers

Have had ours on for about 12k and rotated them the other day have worn about 3mm in tread depth so 6mm overall spare now fits under car with 28psi I have removed the plastic/composite stone guard. I run 37-38 in the tyres usually for the best economy but 28 will get the missus home in an emergancy on the bitumen .If we are off road there is always a compressor packed.Will look faily hard at the adaption that uses the cars compressor.
The tyres are going fairly well wear wise, the above pressure keeps them in pretty good shape whack a bit more in on fully loaded missions, am a bit dissapointed in the fuel usage increase on the bitumen and there has been a bit off chipping on some of the lugs not 2 bad as the rock up here is as sharp as glass in some spots and can shred tyres to bits in 200-300kms. They are awsome in the coarse sand shellgrit we have for beaches as long as you drop the pressures to about 28 have had to go to 20 but was asking a lot try to get where it was pointed. I dont like to go much lower than 28 unless desperate as one minute you are on the beach the next it could be rocks
Supersticky mud when trying to launch the Tinny in creeks gets a bit messy (live by BRICKS motto)
All in all pretty happy
Still having dramas hiding my mitchel bros hitch from the rear sensor if there are any fresh ideas would love to see them.

[CaverD3]

Still having dramas hiding my mitchel bros hitch from the rear sensor if there are any fresh ideas would love to see them.

Have you rotated the sensors?

[rob4play]

Great update on the tyres JAMS. Incidently what pressure do you run on the dirt roads there, you say some of the rock there is like glass? I noticed the increase in fuel use to but have not run enough or factored in the approx -4% due to the larger OD. Had an Autologic remap done today be interesting to see how it helps once I stop testing the extra power. The increase in mid range power was certainly noticeable on a very steep long hill on the way home. ARB bar and lights next week then hitch up the trsiler and off to Birdsville.
Cheers
Rob
PS could not be bothered rotating the sensors yet so just cut a couple of the stick on rubber foot protectors you can buy in various sizes (Bunnings)for furniture, electronic items etc and screen off that way. Just have to remember that if there is an obstacle in the very centre and narrow the sensors won't see it. Rotating is certainly the more refined approach.

[300+]

Running at 42 rear and 40 front pretty much as I have run Goodrich ATs on previous Discos. Tyre Dealer had set to the placard 36 and 33 which while giving a nice soft and still responsive drive would I amm sure result in premature wear.

My TPMS has temperature readings. I found that it was important to keep the rear tyres at the heavy load end of the placard guide to avoid heat build up at highway speeds even with a light load.

Cheers, Steve

[JAMS]

The 38 psi works well on the dirt when the car is only minimumly loaded. If the car and roof rack are loaded up and or i am towing the camper or boat then i squeeze 42 in the rear and 40 in front.
A lot of guys who travel the access line a lot ( Railway access tracks that take you from Karratha to Milstream or Karajini on some of the nastiest road surfaces you will see) swear that the harder your tyre the less likely you are to get into strife. They run 50+psi in the split rim tyres and 45psi in vehicles fitted with "offroad style " tyres I have found that unless you're fully laden 40+psi causes a lot of premature wear through the centre of the tyre and at $400 + a throw I need to maximise their life.

It would be interesting to have some monitoring on the pressure and temp to see how much it changes on a long drive during the summer months when our bitumen roads would have to go close to hitting 100'C and the dirt/rock roads would be in the 90s

I have been using some stick on floor protectors and only have limited sucess with hiding the hitch it is almost as though the radiated heat from the hitch is what it senses as early morning and at night the current stick ons work a treat i will have to try and find some of a different material

[Petian]

Have just come back (last week)from a 15000k trip (about 8000 on crap the rest on black stuff) to Kimberly and the dessert roads between ACT and North, The tyres have now done 40K and appear to be about half worn (just) they handled everything I threw at them :D. I did get one punture coming down the Tanami, that was just an unlucky big rock. We went up the Old Ghan track with all the rail spikes with no trouble at all, one Hilux with us had 4 puntures in his bridgestones for the trip, but he now knows what air pressure means. I ran 23 lb cold on the dirt.

The biggest problem is that if you do need a replacement up there you will wait at least a week if the tyre can be flown to you and fork out about a 1000 for the tyre, so now I'm looking for 6 x 17" wheels for the trips to come.

[Tombie]

IMO and experience I would never, never ever trust a Cooper tyre.

Cooper and Mickey Thompson are owned in the USA by the same co-op. Yet manufacture at different factories / locations in the US.

Several Mickey T guys I have spoken to tell me they wont even 'talk' to the Cooper factory guys...


A good friend owns a 4wd specialist tyre store in Adelaide...
He will NOT sell Cooper tyres - But is the largest seller of Mickey T in SA and at one stage was National Seller.... This is by choice, he makes less margin on a MickeyT than any other brand he sells... He can make more on the Coopers.... He wont...


Would any of you trust your $60k+ vehicle to retreads? Coopers arent much better....


No-one in our entire 4wd club runs Coopers with good reason.. Several punctures, blow outs and a few delamination incidents put paid to that.

Cooper tyres are pushed as a 'premier' brand in Australia... IN the USA they are regarded as rubbish....

The Australian importer sells them as 'bread and butter' and refers to Mickey Thompson tyres as their "Premium" line....


BTW - There is a FC-II that will fit on listed... I will chase the details Monday and report back...

FC-II with hard use has given me 80,000km and being removed as 5mm tread is not enough for offroad use...


I understand the factory tyres arent any chop offroad, but Coopers isnt a step forwards.... Sideways or backwards maybe.... I wouldnt put my faith in them nor trust my vehicle, my life, or that of my family to Coopers.

Well, it seems my post contains some inaccuracies which I will rectify...

The same factory makes the tyres (and other branded products too) made to the specifications of the design team responsible.

My mate, is the largest dealer, but CANT sell Coopers.. Not wont... As a Mickey Thompson dealer he has the MT line... I misunderstood a conversation we had and was under the impression otherwise.


However, it remains MY personal opinion, that I would never recommend them (Coopers) to anyone I know...

Having seen first hand, many damaged tyres of this brand, both tread chipping, damage etc... I wouldnt run with them ever.

I am sure, no doubt, that there are many happy users of ANY branded product as well as many who would have a brand they never would recommend.

So to the guys at Exclusive Tyres etc, whom have seen the original post...
I apologise for the mis-information...

But reserve the right to MY opinion about the Cooper product.

[d3viate]

Getting fuel in Meekatharra a couple of days ago and they had three blokes in the garage repairing the punctures of Coopers tyres. They thought it was a great laugh !. There was five cars parked up outside waiting. I went with Mickey Thompsons as the BFGs were not out at the time to compare, have done 40k on them and they have 10mm left on them.