4BD1 into 88 Range Rover

[The Mutt]

We took a 4BD1 from a Landie to put into our 1988 Rangie, while we had the motor out I removed the front cover and plate to replace it with one that had mounts for the power steering pump, we also found the injector pump alignment was a couple of teeth out on the gearing timer marks (injection pump gear, idler gear, crank shaft gear and cam shaft gear) we lined them up to the settings as per manual.

Now the motor is back together and installed in the Rangie with turbo installed, today we hit the start, after a few attempts the motor started and immediately stopped, we removed the crossover from the turbo to the inlet manifold and sprayed Aerostart the motor ran while I continued spraying but stopped as soon as I stopped spraying. Next time we started the motor holding the throttle linkage fully opened, as soon as the throttle started closing the motor stopped.

We then checked the injector pump timing, it is 8 deg BTDC, the manual spec said 13 deg BTDC.

Any ideas where to look?


Glenn

[justinc]

Hey Mutt, did you remove the fuel pump from the tank? The lift pump WON'T suck through the EFI pump. I had the same problems with mine. I just removed the pickup etc, and took the pump out and added a tube with gauze filter in it's place.

JC

[Dougal]

Throw the aerostart away.

With the engine at TDC, can you see the injector pump gear timing mark through the window in the timing case?
I suspect the couple of teeth out which you "fixed" is now the problem.

[rovercare]

Throw the aerostart away.

With the engine at TDC, can you see the injector pump gear timing mark through the window in the timing case?
I suspect the couple of teeth out which you "fixed" is now the problem.

Either that or its not bled properly/sucking through a blockage;)

Aerostart IS fantastic stuff, but not for your 4BD1:eek:

[The Mutt]

The fuel pump has already been removed from the tank, the tests we did today were done with a full 10 litre fuel tank in the right hand battery holder and two long fuel lines pushed into the tank over half way, the fuel line was primed to remove the all the air not just a few pumps of the handle, I kept pumping for a while after I felt pressure while pumping.

Glenn

[The Mutt]

Almost forgot, the teeth out was the injector pump gear, I corrected as per instructions in the manual so all the alignment marks lined up in the inspection ports, should I put it back to how it was?

Glenn

[rovercare]

Do you know where the pump timing was originally?

Put it back where it was

Is the EDIC definately operating correctly?, maybe drop the cable off and see if it runs then?

[The Mutt]

Nothing other than the injection pump gear has been moved, the motor worked fine before in the donor Landie thou it did sound rough, the EDIC (I think that's the white bag I put on the right hand wheel arch) pushes out the arm on the injector pump until it gets a bit of slack in the wire.

Glenn

[rovercare]

Nothing other than the injection pump gear has been moved, the motor worked fine before in the donor Landie thou it did sound rough, the EDIC (I think that's the white bag I put on the right hand wheel arch) pushes out the arm on the injector pump until it gets a bit of slack in the wire.

Glenn

It actually pulls it back to stop it:D

Change the timing back then, then spill time it from there:)

[The Mutt]

My EDIC pushes the arm towards the rear of the motor when it is engaged, and pulls the arm towards the wheel when off.

Sorry I'm not a diesel mechanic, what is "spill time"

Thanks for being patient with me.


Glenn

[rovercare]

My EDIC pushes the arm towards the rear of the motor when it is engaged, and pulls the arm towards the wheel when off.

Sorry I'm not a diesel mechanic, what is "spill time"

Thanks for being patient with me.


Glenn

Yea that correct, I was merely pointing out that is sits idle "towards the rear of the motor" without the cable, the EDIC merely pulls it "towards the wheel" to shut off:)

Best to read the manual, but first and foremost would be put the pump back to where it was originally and see if it goes as this is all thats changed;)

[The Mutt]

Thanks for all the help Rovercare, I'm not able to work on the motor until Saturday, we will put the gear back then and give it another try.

Glenn

[rovercare]

Thanks for all the help Rovercare, I'm not able to work on the motor until Saturday, we will put the gear back then and give it another try.

Glenn

You can thank me with some pics:)

[The Mutt]

I'll search the forum to work out how to post pics and if possible vids.

Glenn

[rovercare]

I'll search the forum to work out how to post pics and if possible vids.

Glenn

www.photobucket.com (http://www.photobucket.com) ;)

[The Mutt]

Here are a couple of pics, I hope this works.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/198.jpg

Next to my right elbow is the plastic fuel tank we were using to gravity feed the fuel into the motor, the wiring is temporary .... I got impatient to start the motor.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/304.jpg

Here is the Rangie finally sitting on it's new Firestone air suspension, each wheel is controlled by it's own switch, no computer.

Glenn

[Blknight.aus]

sounds like youve naffed the pump time...

heres how to do a spill time.

remove the rocker cover
remove the #1 HP fuel injection line
remove the check valve thats on top of the #1 injector piston, (there are copper washers in here, have replacements handy as if these leak you will get dogged running)
hack up a spare injector line and bend a U into it and then cut the end at 45 degrees so it looks like a meat hook crossed with a hypodermic needle (this is your spill time pipe)
crank the engine by hand slowly till you are at the end of the exhaust stroke.
pump the fuel prime pump till fuel is coming freely out of the spill pipe
keep pumping the prime pump and slowly turn the engine till the fuel stops coming out of the spill pipe.

check where your timings at... as a rough guide if #4 valves are not on or approaching the rock and your spill pipe stops something is wrong.

once you have it all timed right put it all back how it should be.

If your pump timing is near enough to on theres 3 things you might have wrong.

1. when you hand pumped it if you didnt open the bleed screws on the injector pump body AND the filter you will have pressurised air trapped in the system and instead of the lift pump lifting fuel it will try to keep the fuel presurised, the injector pumps will sniff at this and once you have air in the injector lines again you need a rebleed. I usually crack #2 injector line till the engine is running as smoothly as it can on 3 pots then tighten it up

2. the gauze strainer in the bottom of the lift pump is clogged.

3. the lift pump has a busted piston seal or the prime pump has and its sucking air.





this is a static timing ONLY and not the dynamic one that the auto advancer sets up once the engine is running.

best of luck,,,

where are ya at, If its not an urgent thing I might just be connable to come have a look see for ya.

[The Mutt]

Sorry about the delayed reply, it has been one of those weeks.

Last weekend we made sure we had number 1 piston in the right spot, and removed the copper washer the spring and the other bit (don't remember what it's called) hand cranked the engine until the fuel flow stopped as the manual stated, we found the pump timing to be 8deg BTDC the manual wanted 13 deg BTDC.

The only bit I didn't know was to crack the bleed screws open to let the air out, we will give that a go on the weekend.

Thanks for the offer of having a look at the motor for us but we might be a bit far away, we are doing the conversion at Sanctuary Point, South of Nowra in NSW.

I will keep you up to date with our progress.


Glenn

[The Mutt]

Almost forgot, as I mentioned before we have removed the EFI pump from the tank, my question is: should I also remove the original Rangie fuel filter from the right hand side chassis rail near the tank?

Glenn

[rrturboD]

Glenn,
when you have the motor sorted and vehicle mobile, and 'spare time' I'd like to extract some info on the suspension from you!....
Michael T

[The Mutt]

I intended to post some more info on the suspension after the Rangie is on the road and any bugs have been straightened out, at this time I have only had a play raising and lowering while stationary ... not much fun after the "it works" phase.

Glenn

[rangieman]

A couple wild looking dudes
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/198.jpg

[justinc]

I've left my EFI filter in, but I change it out every 12 months.

JC

[The Mutt]

The saga continues.

We checked the gauze strainer, pumped up the the diesel using the hand pump and let the air out via the bleed screws, went through the spill time check of the motor (10 deg BTDC on number 1), still no start .... bugga .... we did notice while using the hand pump that diesel was coming out at a reasonable rate, looks like we have a bad seal problem.

To fix the hand pump seal is there a repair kit available or is the seal a simple rubber ring and piston deal similar to what is found in a floor jack pump.

Does anyone have the part number for the Water Temp Sensor, Gilbert & Roach were having difficulty finding one or is it Land Rover specific.

We didn't let the motor not starting get us down, we sorted out more of the electrics under the bonnet and modified most of the console area to change over from 1988 Auto to LT95 manual with air spring controls, I have been trying to keep as much of the original look and console parts in place as I could.

I will post photos later this week if anyone is interested.

Glenn

[justinc]

The saga continues.

We checked the gauze strainer, pumped up the the diesel using the hand pump and let the air out via the bleed screws, went through the spill time check of the motor (10 deg BTDC on number 1), still no start .... bugga .... we did notice while using the hand pump that diesel was coming out at a reasonable rate, looks like we have a bad seal problem.

To fix the hand pump seal is there a repair kit available or is the seal a simple rubber ring and piston deal similar to what is found in a floor jack pump.

Does anyone have the part number for the Water Temp Sensor, Gilbert & Roach were having difficulty finding one or is it Land Rover specific.

We didn't let the motor not starting get us down, we sorted out more of the electrics under the bonnet and modified most of the console area to change over from 1988 Auto to LT95 manual with air spring controls, I have been trying to keep as much of the original look and console parts in place as I could.

I will post photos later this week if anyone is interested.

Glenn

Glenn,
The temp sender unit needs to be the same as the V8 one, or the gauge will be useless. If your engine was a truck motor, then I can't help but with an ex 110 county engine, the V8 sender just screws straight in:)

Yes, pics would be fantastic!

JC

[The Mutt]

Thanks JC, I'll use the one from the original V8.

I'll post pics in the next couple of days.

Glenn

[The Mutt]

Here are some pics of the console are modifications.

http://www.devinetemptations.com/Console/Console01.jpg

Gearbox in with the side cut-out to allow access to transfer case.

http://www.devinetemptations.com/Console/Console02.jpg

Cut-out side now has a removable panel.

http://www.devinetemptations.com/Console/Console03.jpg

Top panel in place ready to cut lever holes.

http://www.devinetemptations.com/Console/Console04.jpg

Original console getting trial fit, gear lever and air controls in place.

http://www.devinetemptations.com/Console/Console05.jpg

View from opposite direction giving a better view of the air controls.

The bracket to hold the Vacuum Diff Lock Switch and the Transfer lever is to be modified and fitted. The whole thing as well as the complete floor shall then be repainted with Killrust.

http://www.devinetemptations.com/Console/LindaFeedingDucks.jpg

We are doing the engine conversion in Max's carport overlooking the creek giving us the opportunity to feed the ducks.

Glenn

[The Mutt]

We rebuilt the hand fuel pump, and left the other settings alone, after bleeding the fuel line and a few cranks of the starter motor she fired up sending the ducks scarpering, when I took my foot off the go pedal the motor stalled, after the idle adjust control was tweeked no problem. Now the motor starts with little drama and no accelerator and happily idles away ........... now to sort out some electrical quirks such as the alternator ........... it's not charging the battery and the warning light stays on.

Where's my multimeter?

Glenn

[Bush65]

That's good news that the engine starts and runs ok.

Good luck with the electrics. Looks like it will be a good rangie when you are done.

[The Mutt]

Thanks John

At the moment we are having a problem getting charge out of both alternators, one is a Nippon Denso 12v 40 amp unit from the donor vehicle, the other is a Denso A127-65 originally on the Range V8 donk, we must be missing something! GRRRRRRRRRR

Glenn

[justinc]

Thanks John

At the moment we are having a problem getting charge out of both alternators, one is a Nippon Denso 12v 40 amp unit from the donor vehicle, the other is a Denso A127-65 originally on the Range V8 donk, we must be missing something! GRRRRRRRRRR

Glenn

The donor one should be a external reg type, the original one internal regulator. I would be getting hold of a replacement internal reg type 120A alt to suit a 4BD1. I got one after having no end of trouble with the original 40A one not charging enough etc to run driving lamps and fridge etc. If you need the part number, I'll dig it out again?

JC

[The Mutt]

Thanks JC

I already have the part number for the alternator from the forum, at the moment we are trying to get the vehicle back on the road ready for Christmas, we are setting up dual alternators each charging it's own battery,the original RR alternator/battery combination shall be for fridge, etc, in the New Year we will look into upgrading the Isuzu alternator to a more respectable level as well as the front brake calipers, rear storage draws, re-do the roof lining, etc .......... I think the to do list is getting longer, then there is the list for our MacGregor 26X sailboat, we still have to re-wire the trailer, change the tow coupling, get a weight bridge reading, blue-slip and register the trailer, clean-up the mess inside left by Australian Customs, etc.

Christmas is getting very close.

Glenn

[The Mutt]

I hope this works, here is a short vid showing how easily the 4BD1-T starts

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1344.jpg (http://s487.photobucket.com/albums/rr238/the_mutt_1959/?action=view&current=ItsAlive.flv)

And a couple of shots of the air suspension up

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1345.jpg

and down

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1346.jpg

Glenn

[Bush65]

I've been waiting a good while to put air suspension in my rangie - hope to have all of the parts together in the new year.

Do you have a engine driven compressor?

I want to mount a york compressor on my 4BD1-T, but have much more to do before I can get around to it.

In those pics, your exhaust seems to hanging lower than I would like - I don't know if it just the angle we are looking at it.

[The Mutt]

The exhaust has been tacked together from what we had lying around so I can drive 3 to 3.5 hours home and get our exhaust guy to fit it a lot higher than we can, I want to tuck it as high as it can go.

At this time all I have fitted is the 12v Firestone compressor that came as part of the spring kit, I have a York at home all I have to do is work out where to put it, there are already two alternators and an air conditioner compressor fitted, all mounted one on top of the other, clearing the chassis at the lowest point with enough clearence for the bonnet to close at the highest point, the Shock tower forward of the spring mount isn't helping, maybe replacing the belt tensioner under the motor, it would be protected by a rock guard and getting air from the Doyalson air cleaner, it would be forward of the axle about level in height with the sump! Can the York be used mounted 90 degree rotation?

Our biggest problem at the moment is getting either of the alternators to output charging voltages, the sensor line to the dash light works, any ideas?

We want to get on the road again for Christmas/New Year.


Glenn

[Bush65]

The exhaust has been tacked together from what we had lying around so I can drive 3 to 3.5 hours home and get our exhaust guy to fit it a lot higher than we can, I want to tuck it as high as it can go.

At this time all I have fitted is the 12v Firestone compressor that came as part of the spring kit, I have a York at home all I have to do is work out where to put it, there are already two alternators and an air conditioner compressor fitted, all mounted one on top of the other, clearing the chassis at the lowest point with enough clearence for the bonnet to close at the highest point, the Shock tower forward of the spring mount isn't helping, maybe replacing the belt tensioner under the motor, it would be protected by a rock guard and getting air from the Doyalson air cleaner, it would be forward of the axle about level in height with the sump! Can the York be used mounted 90 degree rotation?

Our biggest problem at the moment is getting either of the alternators to output charging voltages, the sensor line to the dash light works, any ideas?

We want to get on the road again for Christmas/New Year.


Glenn
Yorks have oil in their crankcase and have plugs on both sides for checking the oil level.

According to their installation instructions, they can be mounted at any angle from horizontal left to horizontal right, but not below horizontal. When mounted horizontal, the suction port should be to the top.

There is an oiling modification to york compressors if used for onboard air. There is a passage from the inlet port that drains oil back to the crank case via the front main bearing.

Remove the clutch (jacking bolt is 5/8" unc), woodruff key and crankshaft seal.

Stuff rag around the bearing and put something in the oil port so swarf is excluded, tap the oil drain port and plug with a grub screw. I can't remember what size I used - either M5 or M6.

Edit: sorry, I can't help much on electrical matters.

[The Mutt]

Thanks John

After we get back on the road and iron the bugs out of the system I will be having a closer look at fitting the York, I am also looking at adding an old air compressor tank to the space where the "Load Leveller" came from, there is already an air tank under the Driver's side and I have a stainless 45 - 50 litre water tank to install under the Passenger's side, I'm looking at adding a pressurized water system by somehow getting a lower pressure air line to the tank, I have yet to look into that side of things.

If the old compressor tank is too big I might make a stainless tank to fit the spot for more water.

While I think of it:

On our 4BD1 there is a large hole on the side of the engine which is part of an inspection plate located under the turbo, where does that go to?

Also the breather on the right side of the rocker cover, where does it go to?

Neither of us can remember what either of these holes connected to, we pulled the motor out last year.


Glenn

[Dougal]

On our 4BD1 there is a large hole on the side of the engine which is part of an inspection plate located under the turbo, where does that go to?

Also the breather on the right side of the rocker cover, where does it go to?

Neither of us can remember what either of these holes connected to, we pulled the motor out last year.


Glenn

That cover plate is over the oil pump drive gear where it meets the camshaft.
The breather on factory 4BD1T's went to an air/oil seperator, this has a small drain line back to the sump and a large vent line which points at your driveway.
I've changed the air/oil seperator to one of my own design and routed the vent back to the intake before the turbo.

On non turbo truck engines (4BC2 etc) that line goes straight to the intake piping.
Not sure where the landrover ones went, but I'd assume vented to atmosphere.

[The Mutt]

I've changed the air/oil seperator to one of my own design and routed the vent back to the intake before the turbo.



What does it look like, if you don't mind I might duplicate your air/oil seperator?

At the moment it is venting to the atmosphere and dropping oil directly onto the concrete.

Does the breather on the right side of the rocker cover connect to the same seperator?


Glenn

[Dougal]

What does it look like, if you don't mind I might duplicate your air/oil seperator?

At the moment it is venting to the atmosphere and dropping oil directly onto the concrete.

Does the breather on the right side of the rocker cover connect to the same seperator?


Glenn

PM me your email. I can send you a self-opening 3D model that you can spin around and measure.:)

[isuzurover]

On non turbo truck engines (4BC2 etc) that line goes straight to the intake piping.
Not sure where the landrover ones went, but I'd assume vented to atmosphere.

Land rover 4BD1s have an 8mm (ID) breather tube going from the tappet cover to the air intake (just before the intake manifold).

They also have the large steel breather connected to the side cover.

When I fitted my turbo, I T-d the two breathers together, then connected them to a Provent.

The breather connection on the intake is now where my wastegate connects to.

[The Mutt]

Land rover 4BD1s have an 8mm (ID) breather tube going from the tappet cover to the air intake (just before the intake manifold).

They also have the large steel breather connected to the side cover.

When I fitted my turbo, I T-d the two breathers together, then connected them to a Provent.

The breather connection on the intake is now where my wastegate connects to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, The tappet cover breather is now T'd to the rubber hose on the wastegate?

The large steel breather connects to your Provent?

What did the original Land Rover part that the large vent connected to look like, it might still be laying around somewhere from when we pulled everything apart we have bits of my Land Rover and Rangie as we as all of Max's stuff from his other projects all over the place!

As mentioned in a previous post the Land Rover was pulled apart in 2007, we don't remember what everything hooked up to.

Glenn

[Bush65]

What does it look like, if you don't mind I might duplicate your air/oil seperator?

At the moment it is venting to the atmosphere and dropping oil directly onto the concrete.

Does the breather on the right side of the rocker cover connect to the same seperator?


Glenn
The 4BD1 fitted to Land Rovers have the rocker cover as used on the stationary engines. The crankcase breaths through a cover over the tappet/pushrod chest.

4BD1 and 4BD1-T in trucks have a different rocker cover with outer acoustic cover. The crankcase breaths through the rocker cover.

Additionally the -T has an oil catch can in the 1/2" line from the rocker cover. Oil collected in the catch can drains back to the sump and air vents to atmosphere.

I intend to replace my catch can with a Provent, so have a spare catch can if you need it.


Correct me if I'm wrong, The tappet cover breather is now T'd to the rubber hose on the wastegate?

The large steel breather connects to your Provent?

What did the original Land Rover part that the large vent connected to look like, it might still be laying around somewhere from when we pulled everything apart we have bits of my Land Rover and Rangie as we as all of Max's stuff from his other projects all over the place!

As mentioned in a previous post the Land Rover was pulled apart in 2007, we don't remember what everything hooked up to.

Glenn
As I understand, what Ben did was disconnect the breather that went from the rocker cover to the inlet manifold. He then connected the wastegate to the port on the manifold (that the breather was previously connected to).

Here is a pic showing the 4BD1-T catch can. And a poor one of part of the Land Rover breather - I think Ben's thread on fitting his turbo may have some better pics.

[isuzurover]

As I understand, what Ben did was disconnect the breather that went from the rocker cover to the inlet manifold. He then connected the wastegate to the port on the manifold (that the breather was previously connected to).


Yep, that's it - thanks John.

Some pics here:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/63176-budget-4bd1-turbo-install.html

And here:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/57414-4bd1-provent-install.html

[The Mutt]

Thanks for the photos John and isuzurover, I have seen at least one of these parts in the piles of bits 'N pieces I'm sure the other is there as well, it will be much easier now I know what I'm looking for.

Down the track I might invest in a Provent my main concern at this time is to get rolling again, we intend to have time off and want to do a bit of sailing and go for a few drives.

This weekend is a right-off for working on the vehicle due to Christmas parties, next weekend we'll be at it again.

Glenn

[The Mutt]

There is a metal tube coming off the engine side plate to the the factory breather

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1109.jpg

Where does the other pipe connect to?

If it's the Alternator we have some re-routung to do, the alternator is now at the highest it could go and still be able close the bonnet.

Glenn

[isuzurover]

There is a metal tube coming off the engine side plate to the the factory breather

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1109.jpg

Where does the other pipe connect to?

If it's the Alternator we have some re-routung to do, the alternator is now at the highest it could go and still be able close the bonnet.

Glenn

The tube closest to the front of the image just goes down to chassis level and vents to atmosphere.

[The Mutt]

The tube closest to the front of the image just goes down to chassis level and vents to atmosphere.


That will make it easier.

Thanks for that.

Glenn

[The Mutt]

What is the best exhaust set-up?

Some Rice Racers I know think I should go for a 2 1/2 inch straight through exhaust with two mufflers to cut down on noise.

I have no idea, I'd like to work out some options before talking to the Exhaust guy and getting talked into a quick and easy job or a $$$$$$$$$$ job.

Glenn

[Vern]

Glenn,
when you have the motor sorted and vehicle mobile, and 'spare time' I'd like to extract some info on the suspension from you!....
Michael T
Any chance of getting some info on that airbag set up?:(