Report on General Grabbers

[Timj]

Well when I fitted a set of 255/60/18 General Grabbers a few weeks ago I said I would report what I thought of them after a while. I have to say that right now I am not impressed. Part of the reason that I bought them was that I believed they had stronger case construction than the standard Goodyear Wranglers and therefore stronger sidewall. Unfortunately I found out the hard way in Sundown National Park yesterday that they are actually pretty soft in the sidewall and if you air them down the sidewalls are very exposed due to the way they bag out and they will get cut on rocks. I had two tyres punctured through the sidewall and one rim damaged quite badly so all in all an expensive weekend. The tread pattern is definitely better than the standard tyre and did not chip or show any signs of damage but depending on the terrain that may not be enough.

Here is a photo of the damaged rim - https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/131.jpg

This is the inside of the rim and it was on the front right.

Here is a photo of the damage to the outside of the same tyre with our attempt to plug it to make the tyre useable if I damaged another. It would not hold air though.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/132.jpg

And some more damage on the outside of the same tyre that did not get through.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/133.jpg

This is the one that got through on the first puncture which was on the back right. This one we patched to again get a tyre that could be used in an emergency if I damaged another but the patch would be very borderline legal as it is really in the sidewall.

http://images43.fotki.com/v1381/photos/7/737024/6954836/IMG_2418-vi.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/11/134.jpg

So right now I am rethinking the decision I made to buy the Grabbers and I may well have to get a set of 17" Dynamics and something that has a taller sidewall even though they will not have the speed rating. I don't think I can fit anything much larger on the 18"s as they will rub in the rear wheel arch where the rear air conditioning pipes are.

My advice to anyone who likes to air down for traction in rough country would be to avoid anything in the stadard size and try to find something with a taller sidewall. I don't know of anything in standard size that has a better sidewall.

Timj.

[simonl8353]

I agree GG AT2's do bag a bit so you dont need to airdown quite as much. I may go to around 26psi front and 28psi rear for those rocky/stoney forestry tracks or quite often leave them at (slightly soft) road pressures 36psi front and 38psi rear with no issues (yet).

One difference is I'm running 255/65/R16's so the extra 1" in side wall probably gives better absorbtion.

Grip wise, excellent on wet or dry bitumen and mud (for an AT)

[stevo68]

Hey Tim,

I agree. I had the GG's on my D3. I tore one without knowing on a trip to Coffs harbour, was scrambling up a shaly piece of track and must have sliced the side wall. Didnt realise till we were doing 100kms + and rear felt washy. Pulled over it was flat. I had put up an assessment somewhere on the GG's in that they are a better option to the wranglers in terms of grip. In terms of strength, when aired down there is little or no protection for sidewall or rim. I came back from that trip and the new rims I had were chipped to pieces. I also had to have another GG repaired, though on that occasion it could have happened to another tyre. If I had kept the D3, I was looking at Mickey Thompson MTZ's in a 275, as I had the V8..18 inch rims were my minimum.

Regards

Stevo

[Scallops]

Tim - it's never a good thing to wreck tyres and rims - but it's worse when they are relatively new. :(

Supporting a comment from Stevo, I can vouch for the Mickey thompson MTZ's - I had mine on for 24 hrs before the Sundown trip - no chips, no damage - brilliant grip.

The Mickeys sidewalls "stand up" - even when aired down - and are actually a reasonable tyre on road too. My attitude is - if you're going to swap between road and offroad tyres - go all the way! :D

[ozscott]

Unfortunately massive rim size leaving only enough room for lower profile tyres are the one big drawback of the modern 4WD (bar defender and base models of various brands). There are times when you should air down and having the best traction control systems in the world are not going to get such vehicles everywhere, or at the least do so kindly to the vehicle and the track...and the result will be damaged rims and tyres (unless you have a whole set of spare rims and tyres to go offroading with which is a giant pain for most people and very expensive).

Cheers

[gghaggis]

If you're going to spend $100 000 or so on a new 4WD, I don't see spending $600 on 4 x 17" steel rims and a set of decent off-road tyres as overly expensive. It's probably the responsible thing to do. Tyres on the 17" rims will give more than adequate flotation - I've never had a problem with the D3 in sand.

I agree that the Mickey Thompson MTZ is an excellent off-road tyre, and pretty good on-road too. I had them on my D3 for 20 000 or so km, before I got the Mickey Thompson ATZ for on-road use. Can't say enough good things about them.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Timj]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I should probably clarify some things here. I bought General Grabbers after a long process of trying to find out something about every tyre that would fit and after reading lots of posts on forums both here and overseas. I also took into account the legalities of changing tyres here in Queensland. There is also an issue with the model that I have with rear airconditioning that has some pipes inside a plastic bump in the back wheel arch. This apparently causes rubbing and eventually damage to the pipes if the tyres are too large.

Legally here in Queensland we cannot increase the diameter of the tyre by more than 15mm, have to have at least the same load rating and as far as I can work out we cannot put on a tyre with a lower speed rating. More than anything the speed rating limits the available tyres. I have a very expensive vehicle that I am willing to take off road and the cost of the steel rims is not that much compared to the vehicle but I still want my insurance to pay out if I damage it seriously.

I'm kind of p***ed off at the moment because it seems like I made the wrong decision despite all the work I put into trying to make the right one. I believed that I had the right compromise of still legal but tough enough to take offroad. It may come down to running tyres that are technically illegal and hoping that no one will notice. That's a pretty big gamble though. It would be great if we had the national code here in Qld that allowed up to 50mm increase, though I am not sure what it says about speed ratings.

One thing extra too - The first puncture happened with 24psi in the tyres which exposed the sidewalls way too much. After that we put 30psi in all tyres and still the second puncture happened. I am not sure if that is also when the rim damage happened as that appeared to still be holding air and may have happened earlier. After that we went up to 40psi with one standard wrangler now on the wheel and did not have another puncture but by then we were almost through anyway.

Tim.

[Col.Coleman]

IIRC you can put on a tyre with a lower speed rating, and limit your speed, not that that will effect anyone in Australia, but not a lower load rating.

How did the unbalanced tyre on the front go on the way home?

CC

[gghaggis]

Tim,

To keep legal and still have a robust set of tyres for touring/offroad, I'd recommend getting a set of 17" rims and shod them with 245/70/17 Cooper STT. Alternatives are Maxxis Bighorn, made in 255/65/17 or 245/70/17 and 114Q rating. Kumho make a 265/65/17 AT tyre, but I'm not sure of the load rating?

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

It makes base model rims look pretty attractive

PS. There a a ****e load of D3 owners that would have paid nothing like 100 gorrillas for their car

[Timj]

Well, continuing the research I found this on the transport Qld website -

Speed and load ratings

The speed rating of all tyres must be:

• a speed of at least:
for an off-road passenger vehicle – 140km/h
for another car (sedan, station wagon etc.)
up to nine adult seating positions or a car
derivative – 180km/h
for another motor vehicle – 120km/h
• the vehicle’s top speed, if lower.

Load ratings of tyres must be at least equal to those
specified by the manufacturer on the tyre placard fitted
to vehicles made after 1972. For other vehicles, the load
rating of a tyre must be capable of carrying the part of
the vehicle’s gross mass carried by the tyre.

Now that is good since virtually every tyre that fits is rated above 140kph. Wish I had found this when I was researching. Pretty sure that the Landrover manual says it has to be the same or higher speed rating.

CC - the tyre must have been pretty good as fitted since it did not show any signs of vibration at all. Score one for the bush mechanics :).

Tim.

[Blknight.aus]

be careful there are some obscurities in the rules for tyres on vehicles when it comes to speed..

as a rule I use the vehicles top speed when selecting tyres and in some cases it has to be the maximum speed on the speedo..... (thats an old rule which has been superseded but the old copies of the book still exist and old guys will still quote from them)

I cant remember where you are but is there any chance that I can get my hands on your damaged rim and the patched tyre... I have some butchery experiments I wish to conduct. The tyre will be safe but the rim is going to get some abuse heaped at it.

[Timj]

Hi Dave,

I have had a couple of people (including the parts guy at Landrover) tell me that the rims can be repaired so I am going to investigate that first. I checked today with the insurance company and it should be covered by insurance but there is still a $400 excess so if it can be repaired for less than that it may be worth trying. A new rim from Landrover is $1208.55 + GST, which is about what I was expecting, but I am not sure how the hell they justify that kind of price.

Thanks again for your help getting it all fixed too. Would have been even further up the creek without those tyrepliers.

Tim.

[Col.Coleman]

Tim,
You can definately get the rim repaired.

Back in the old days when we had a BMW convertable with 45 series tyres, we bent no less than 6 over a period of 12 months, much worse than the ding in yours.

Each wheel was repaired as good as new. Price was a couple of hundered, but this was around 10 years ago.

CC

[Blknight.aus]

Urmmmmmm.....

not entirely sure Id be trusting a repaired ally rim.

[mike 90 RR]

Urmmmmmm.....

not entirely sure Id be trusting a repaired ally rim.

In Osboure Park (Perth WA) .... there is company that "lives off" repairing Ali Rims ... From crushed to small damage like the one in Timj photo's posted

They basically "heat the rim up" and then "roll them on a lathe" .... Costs about $100+ ?



Timj ... If you get stuck & If you have to pay for a new rim ... just send the old one to Perth and get them to repair it ... as yours is a easy repair

BUT what ever you do .... DON'T try to belt it straight yourself ... then you will have to scrap it

Mike

:)

[TDV6]

I have been told that the tyre fitment laws are to be changed in January 09. There is no indication of which way they will go as yet, so the present rule of a maximum increase of 15mm in tyre diameter may be increased or decreased or remain the same and other bits change. I would like the new Cooper LTZ to be street legal but at 799mm they are 21mm bigger than the law (ADR's) currently allows. Remember this is subject to political will so maybe maybe not there is a change coming.

If you look on the Coopers US website there is a big promo about the LTZ and Land Rover RRS and Disco 3's where they look very good.

Ryall

[Timj]

I have to admit to a little worry about repairing an alloy rim but given that it did not appear to be losing pressure through that damage anyway then I think I will trust it. Just have to find someone in Brisbane or at least close to do it.

TDV6 - I believe the standard tyre is 775mm so that gives us up to 790mm legally. There aren't really a lot in 18" that fall within that and give you a taller sidewall which is what I have realised I need if I am going to travel the sort of country that destroyed these tyres. Even in the 17" the 265/70 is slightly too large. 265/65 is ok as is 245/70 and 275/65. Easiest way to show what I found is to paste in the document I made up while I was researching. I am sure there are ones that I missed in this list but it was limited to those with a correct load rating.

255 60 18
General Grabber AT2 112H 775mm
285 60 18
Toyo Open Country AT 120S 795mm (Passenger Construction)
275 65 18
Mickey Thompson ATZ 123R 815mm
245 70 17
Cooper ST 119Q 773mm
Cooper STT 119Q 780mm
Mickey Thompson ATZ 119R 777mm
265 65 17
General Grabber AT2 112T 790mm
Goodyear Silent Armour 112 776mm
Dunlop Grandtrek AT3 112S
Kumho KL78 112H
Toyo Open Country AT 112S 775mm (Passenger Construction)
Bridgestone D694 112S 776mm
Yokohama ATS (GO12) 112H 776mm
265 70 17
Toyo Open Country AT 121S 804mm (LT Construction)
Goodyear Silent Armour 112R 803mm
General Grabber AT2 115S 818mm
Mickey Thompson ATZ 121R 803mm (5 Rib)
Mickey Thompson ATZ 121Q 805mm (4 Rib)
BF Goodrich AT KO ?
275 65 17
Bridgestone D694 115T 790mm
Bridgestone D693 114H 789mm
Yokohama ATS (GO12) 115H 790mm
Toyo Open Country AT 115T 788mm (Passenger Construction)
Dunlop Grandtrek AT3 115H
Goodyear Silent Armour 115T

Maxxis Bighorn & Bravo AT in 17s, Goodyear MTR 265 70 17 121P, Mickey T MTZ 265 70 17 121Q


Tim.

[Col.Coleman]

After seeing Scallops and JohnR both go through no worries, I would go the Mickey T's.

These are the only things I would put on after my Michies.

Hell, I could even be tempted to put a set on. shock Horror.

Claim the rim on insurance Tim, get a new one, then get the old one repaired. You will then have 6 rims and something to put on the other side of your dual swingaway carrier:D

Or just buy 6 17inch rims, and leave the grabbers for the coles carpark

CC

[WhiteD3]

Tim, did you look at 18" Coopers?

ST:
275/65R18 123Q
275/70R18 125Q

Sure Trac 4WD Tyre Specifications (http://www.coopertires.com.au/tyres/st_specs.htm)

[Timj]

Hi Mark,

No I didn't look at much in the 18" since I think they are just too large. But I was not aware of Coopers in 18" anyway, are they new? Apart from the legalities I think they will rub where the rear air conditioning is. If I could find someone who would put them on for me and let me try them it would be great.:D Don't like my chances of that though.

Mickey Thompson MTZ in 265/70/17 sounds great and should be ok for clearance. I don't like the thought of running steel wheels though. There are some requirements for it to look good when not 4wding. Might have to look at Performance alloy wheels.

Tim.

[JND72]

For the rim repair, contact Bruce at Race Engineering, located in Rocklea. I've not had any work done there, but Bruce is a neighbour (and nice guy!) and specialises in wheel repairs and modifications.

Race Engineering - Home (http://www.raceengineering.com.au)

Justin

[Timj]

Thanks Justin,

Too late though. I took it down to Depulu Wheel repairs down the coast (recommended by the LandRover parts guy) and it will be delivered back in the morning. Tyre removed, wheel repaired, a different tyre put back on and balanced and then freighted to me in Mt Gravatt for $191. I thought that wasn't too bad. Particularly since insurance was going to be a $400 excess if I convinced them to replace the rim.

Tim.

[scarry]

There is also a place at slacks creek that specialise in repairing alloy rims.Those rice burners on real low profile tyres keep them very busy.

[WhiteD3]

Continental have an 18" AT although I'm not sure its available here.

ContiCrossContact AT
Series 60 255/60 R18 112T TL FL XR
Continental Tyres -ContiCrossContact AT (http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/automobile/themes/4x4/summer/conti_cross_contact_at/conticrosscontact_at_en;tabNr=2.html)

[300+]

Tim, did you look at 18" Coopers?

ST:
275/65R18 123Q
275/70R18 125Q

Sure Trac 4WD Tyre Specifications (http://www.coopertires.com.au/tyres/st_specs.htm)

They are both too large to be legal in Qld.

If you have a serious or expensive insurance claim you can bet the insurance company would crawl all over the car with a fine comb. I am sure that illegal tyres would be picked up on and potentially the claim rejected. This is painful enough if you loose your car, but imagine the proverbial bus queue of quadraplegics you just created. Just not worth the risk.

Cheers, Steve

PS having thought through my purchase I think the AT2s were the right thing. But I have a V8, so I can't fit 17" wheels.

[Timj]

Hi Steve,

I am maybe not quite so upset about the tyres as I was. I would say that the AT2 is a good tyre in that the tread worked well, gave good grip and has not chipped even with the pretty rough ground we went through. The problem is the height of the sidewall and that has to do with the fact that they are 18" and what is legal in Qld more than anything. If Qld adopted the national code then we would be allowed to go past the 15mm increase so I can't see how it is a safety issue as such but it could still be a claim knocked back by insurance. When the 255/60/18 is aired down there is just too much of the sidewall exposed and by that I mean that it is actually running on the sidewall at pressures that aren't really that low. The sidewall has no steel belts and is just two ply so it is not strong enough to handle the kind of country we were in. I think I was expecting too much from them.

I am now contemplating the 17" road simply to get taller sidewalls. I may even go for somethiong that is slightly taller than legal. On my Pajero that I had before this one I had tyres that were about 25mm larger than standard so I suppose I have already taken the risk with insurance. A 265/70/17 will be just over 800mm which is 25mm up so that is probably where I will be going. That will give about a 2" increasde in the height of the sidewall overall which should make a big difference to the way it bags out.

Tim.

[Warrigal57]

Timj

The Explore Oz website has a tyre size calculator that you may find useful:
Tyre Size Calculator @ ExplorOz (http://www.exploroz.com/Vehicle/Tyres/SizeCalc.aspx)

This calculator gives the standard 255/60x18 as 763mm.

I have been running Cooper ST 265/70 x 17 on my Discovery 3 - and have the occasional rub on the inside rear arches as you mention. No damage caused to the tyres but not desirable.

cheers.

[CaverD3]

Coopers do an HT in the 18 inch tyres. Stiffer sidewall and better punctre resistance. Tread pattern not so good off road though.
Yokahama also do an AT Geolandar in the right size.

Timj it looks like the sidewall was just pinched because there was not enough air pressure to resist the impact.
I think too low pressures in rocky conditions is not such a good idea with a compromise tyre like an AT.
Specialist and Comp Tyres are designed to take large impacts at low pressures but thre are not any suitable for the 18 inch rims.
From other reports the GG apears to be a great improvement on the Wranglers.

I had a puncture everytime I went out to an Oberon property, with the Cooper HT+s, not one. :D

[CleanTD5]

hi steve
just curious,,,,,,,with the legalities of tyre sizes in queensland,,,,is that only for vehicles registered in queensland or same rule for tourists from other states, who may have vehicles with valid tyres in other states ?

[300+]

My understanding is that a legally registered vehicle can visit QLD within the normal rules. For example, if you move here I think you need a qld registration after a certain period.

But it isn't something I've looked at in great detail...

Cheers, Steve

[Desert Traveller]

An informative link regarding tyres
Car Bibles : The Wheel and Tyre Bible Page 1 of 2 (http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html)

[Blknight.aus]

thats good, thats very very good....

That deserves a place in the good oil.

[Neil P]

That was a really good read ....... many thanks.

[DiscoBell]

I cannot agree more! I too purchased General Grabbers as i have the 18inch Rims. At first i thought they were great from a traction point of view compared to the standard tyres i was on.

Not too many trips later i burst front left outer wall and rear right inner wall going through a small puddle!

So that was about a $900 trip!

Got two new tyres and after one trip the new tyre has a massive cut in the sidewall!

I am keen to get the Mickey Thompson MTZ tyres, they look the business!