Stick Welding Tips Required

[101RRS]

I have been doing some repairs to the rear X member of my 101 and have some welding questions. I am using an electric stick welder but also have access to oxy acetelyne welding as well but prefer the electric welder.

Questions are:

1. Overhead and vertical welding - reduce amps to about 2/3??? Tips??

2. If amps reduced - do you still get the required penetration?

3. Welding on vertical - go up or down? stitch from side to side? or what?? Tips??

4. Some of the metal I will have to weld is very rusty - normally this would be cleaned up to a nice bright surface - however some of the metal in tight spots where the grinder with a wire brush cannot get at - best I could manage is a jason pistol and hand wire brush but it will still be very dirty. Any suggestions on how to weld well to materials that are not as clean as they should be??

5. Welding stick wanting to stick to the job - not enough amps? too many amps? too much dirt? welding stick not hot enough??

Any other pointers for welding with less than optimally clean materials.

Thanks

Garry

[big harold]

What type and size rods are u using?
What amps?
What is base metal thickness?
Are u pre heating?

[mcrover]

Garry, your questions just inspire more questions but I will answer what I can.


I have been doing some repairs to the rear X member of my 101 and have some welding questions. I am using an electric stick welder but also have access to oxy acetelyne welding as well but prefer the electric welder.

Questions are:

1. Overhead and vertical welding - reduce amps to about 2/3??? Tips??

If you have no actual amperage measurement on the machine then I would be using it around max on medium (comon type GP) rods and the thinner the rod I would lower the amperage bit by bit testing it out on some scrap to see how it is welding

2. If amps reduced - do you still get the required penetration?No

3. Welding on vertical - go up or down? stitch from side to side? or what?? Tips??Go up as much as you can and once you have put a reasonable strong weld underneithe you can cap it by doing a fast down weld to make it look nice

4. Some of the metal I will have to weld is very rusty - normally this would be cleaned up to a nice bright surface - however some of the metal in tight spots where the grinder with a wire brush cannot get at - best I could manage is a jason pistol and hand wire brush but it will still be very dirty. Any suggestions on how to weld well to materials that are not as clean as they should be?? I would get the oxy into it and try to loosen the rust off that way.
If it is really flakey then if you give it a spray with some water first it sometimes will help flake it off when its heated with the oxy.

This will also oxidise the metal which will make it much easier to clean up and then will weld.

You cant weld dirty rusty metal, it just wont have any strength if you do get a weld on it at all.


5. Welding stick (electrode) wanting to stick to the job - not enough amps? yes too many amps? Will burn holes too much dirt? Wont arc welding stick not hot enough??Will give a crappy weld with no penatration

Any other pointers for welding with less than optimally clean materials.

Thanks

Garry

Other pointers.........

Make sure you dont go over the same weld without cleaning off the slag as it will not give you any penatration.

Make sure you use good quality, dry electrodes.

Go get an inverter welder for starters, the older type transformer welders just dont compare and this sounds like you want to do a good job.

If you cant get your hands on an Inverter then go and hire a mig but dont use a gasless as you may as well just use your arc welder.

The MIG will be much easier to use for this job if your not an accomplished welder.

[101RRS]

What type and size rods are u using?
What amps?
What is base metal thickness?
Are u pre heating?

Mild steels rods - 1mm - 3.2mm dependent on thickness of metal.

Amps - between 40 and about 90 dependent on thickness of metal and rods being used.

Metal thickness varies between 1.5mm and 3mm where it is sheet but in reinforced areas maybe up to 5mm thick.

No preheating except from residual heat from pervious welding.

Cheers

Garry

[Bigbjorn]

sounds like you need a TAFE hobby welding course.

[isuzurover]

Mild steels rods - 1mm - 3.2mm dependent on thickness of metal.

Amps - between 40 and about 90 dependent on thickness of metal and rods being used.

Metal thickness varies between 1.5mm and 3mm where it is sheet but in reinforced areas maybe up to 5mm thick.

No preheating except from residual heat from pervious welding.

Cheers

Garry


Welding <2mm is a HUGE PITA with a stick. I have done it plenty of times, but it is still a PITA!

Don't use oxy - excess heat can cause embrittlement and lead to fatigue cracking - also don't use water to cool anything - let it cool slowly.

Set up some test pieces, and practice on them until you get it right.

When welding thin metal, I weld in short sections and then let it cool in between (or weld say 1" sections and leave a 1" gap) - otherwise you run the risk of blowing holes as the metal heats up.

If the welder sticks, then either the amps are too low or your technique is wrong (stick too perpendicular and/or too much pressure). Stick welders are somewhat) forgiving of rusty bits, but what about using a dremel to clean it up first?

[101RRS]

Thanks for the pointers - I have not problem welding when the metal is nice and new and sitting on a bench - the problems I have is when the project is in a position or is in a condition that is far from ideal and circumstances prevent proper cleaning or you have to weld upside down.

I actually have done a welding course using mig, oxy and stick but it was more aligned to fabrication where you have nice metal etc - not repair crap.

For example - if the job welding on the flat requires say 70 amps - what should the amps set at if welding over head or vertical - I did hear that amps should be 2/3rds - but my concern is then what will the penetration be like - poor I guess.

The point about quality of welding rods is spot on - I have some old CIG and these work great where my new no name ones bought from Bunnings are crap.

The welder is an old CIG transformer - I have a MIG but returned the gas bottle as it was just too expensive for the use it got. Also as said the stick welder is a bit forgiving on crappy projects where the MIG is absolutely useless. I found that on nice clean metal in ideal conditions, the MIG was no better than the stick anyway.

My main problem is getting the metal clean in tight out of the way spots and having to weld in overhead and vertical positions and in pokey spots.

Thanks to everyone for the pointers

Garry

[Bigbjorn]

Go to a Repco store and investigate their range of throw away gas bottles for mig & tig. A bottle is about the same price as 3 months rent on my BOC bottle which will be returned when it is empty. I handed in my oxy and acetylene bottles years ago when I realised I had not used them for at least 6 months and decided $300 per annum was too much of a luxury. I wish our gas authorities would allow disposable oxy/acetylene bottles like Bernzomatic sell in the UsA where you can get them at your local hardware or auto parts stores.

[maca]

One word

"TIG"

MMAW for thin chassis is just way tooooo tricky (for me anyway).

But oxy would be just as good, why do you prefer the stick?

[RobHay]

RobHay's welding safety tip #1.

When welding on the vertical, DO NOT stand directly under the section you are welding.

Safety tip #2 . When welding on the vertical, or any other position for that matter, DO NOT wear thongs.:eek:


........NO! I do not want to discuss this further.:angel:

[101RRS]

One word

"TIG"

MMAW for thin chassis is just way tooooo tricky (for me anyway).

But oxy would be just as good, why do you prefer the stick?

TIG = $$$ I don't have.

Most of the bits I am welding are about 3mm so stick works OK - I like Oxy as well but when the gas runs out that will be it - as mentioned cost is over the top so I am saving it for those urgent jobs - also heat is not as localised as stick and I have nearby wiring and underseal that will burn with oxy.

Garry

[Slunnie]

One word

"TIG"

MMAW for thin chassis is just way tooooo tricky (for me anyway).

But oxy would be just as good, why do you prefer the stick?

Really? I wouldn't TIG unless you wanted to hide any evidence of repair. It's just a chassis, if I was going to the bother of getting gas for the TIG, then I would just go MIG. You can also set/use the MIG to give reinforcement on the inside of the chassis for a stronger weld.

[101RRS]

RobHay's welding safety tip #1.

When welding on the vertical, DO NOT stand directly under the section you are welding.

Safety tip #2 . When welding on the vertical, or any other position for that matter, DO NOT wear thongs.:eek:


........NO! I do not want to discuss this further.:angel:

Tip number 1 - bought a cheap leather apron, auto helmet and baseball cap on backwards keeps the burnies out - ear plugs (or really big ear hairs) are needed too to keep the burnies out.

Tip number 2 - hmmm - were you at my place today:( - what is wrong with thongs:o - I agree with you but I am a bit lazy - yes I was welding in thongs today - I know how to hop well:D

Maybe more discussion is needed.

Garry

[maca]

TIG = $$$ I don't have.

Most of the bits I am welding are about 3mm so stick works OK - I like Oxy as well but when the gas runs out that will be it - as mentioned cost is over the top so I am saving it for those urgent jobs - also heat is not as localised as stick and I have nearby wiring and underseal that will burn with oxy.

Garry

Most new inverter MMAW welders do DC TIG as well.
$200 for a cheepie (+ gas).

[mcrover]

Thanks for the pointers - I have not problem welding when the metal is nice and new and sitting on a bench - the problems I have is when the project is in a position or is in a condition that is far from ideal and circumstances prevent proper cleaning or you have to weld upside down.

I actually have done a welding course using mig, oxy and stick but it was more aligned to fabrication where you have nice metal etc - not repair crap.

For example - if the job welding on the flat requires say 70 amps - what should the amps set at if welding over head or vertical - I did hear that amps should be 2/3rds - but my concern is then what will the penetration be like - poor I guess.

The point about quality of welding rods is spot on - I have some old CIG and these work great where my new no name ones bought from Bunnings are crap.

The welder is an old CIG transformer - I have a MIG but returned the gas bottle as it was just too expensive for the use it got. Also as said the stick welder is a bit forgiving on crappy projects where the MIG is absolutely useless. I found that on nice clean metal in ideal conditions, the MIG was no better than the stick anyway.

My main problem is getting the metal clean in tight out of the way spots and having to weld in overhead and vertical positions and in pokey spots.

Thanks to everyone for the pointers

Garry

Ok the reason you would pull the amps down when welding vertically is that you have to go a bit slower and you want a colder weld so it all doesnt just fall in a heap on the ground or your mask or in my case my chest OUCH that bloody hurt.

The only problem is then either going too slow and still ending up with a big blob of chassis and electrode laying on the ground bubbling or you go too fast and end up with little penatration.

You have to be pretty exact when welding vertically if you want a strong job.

If you have a MIG then I would be wandering down to your local Repco or Gasweld and picking up a disposable bottle (about $20) and small reg (about $30) or go down to BOC and see how much a bottle of Corgon will be on a weekend hire.

Last time I got an argon bottle on a weekend hire it was $35 from Friday to Monday. $30+ for the hire and $2 for the gas I used ;)


RobHay's welding safety tip #1.

When welding on the vertical, DO NOT stand directly under the section you are welding.

Safety tip #2 . When welding on the vertical, or any other position for that matter, DO NOT wear thongs.:eek:


........NO! I do not want to discuss this further.:angel:


ROFLMAO........serves you right :wasntme: :p

[big harold]

My thoughts are that if there is a crack there then it must be a stress point, Therefore using GP rods would not be the best option. As for the metal being rusty well this does not help with Hydrogen bubbles which will weaken the weld, would look good on the outside but have no strength.
If you want a good job my suggestion would be use a mig as this will limit hydrogen bubbles being a problem therefor weld will be strong.
Second choice would be a low hydrogen rod or stainless rod both of these will be stronger than a GP rod, stainless will be easier to weld with but dearer to buy also would not be able to oxy stainless if needed.
You can also get a rod from pac weld that is used for all types of welding on uncertian metals or poor surface condition, problem extreemly expensive.
But these are easy to eld with and extreemly strong.
Sorry for the extended post but My motto is DO IT ONCE AND DO IT RIGHT.

[101RRS]

My thoughts are that if there is a crack there then it must be a stress point, Therefore using GP rods would not be the best option. As for the metal being rusty well this does not help with Hydrogen bubbles which will weaken the weld, would look good on the outside but have no strength.
If you want a good job my suggestion would be use a mig as this will limit hydrogen bubbles being a problem therefor weld will be strong.
Second choice would be a low hydrogen rod or stainless rod both of these will be stronger than a GP rod, stainless will be easier to weld with but dearer to buy also would not be able to oxy stainless if needed.
You can also get a rod from pac weld that is used for all types of welding on uncertian metals or poor surface condition, problem extreemly expensive.
But these are easy to eld with and extreemly strong.
Sorry for the extended post but My motto is DO IT ONCE AND DO IT RIGHT.

No cracks - just rust in the rear X member. The rear X member on a 101 has some closed in box sections that trap dirt that has come down the chassis - dust coming in the vent holes in the chassis - I collected about 3 kg of red dirt out the back end of the main chassis rails. These are all OK. The X member fits over the ends of the chassis (like a series repro rear x member) and it welded in place - the rear x member also carries the rear spring hangers not the chassis.

Because of the box sections and the rear bumpers which are held on by large plates rust builds up in the box sections and in between the x member and bumper plates.

When the rusty bits are cut out - it is difficult get into some tight spots to clean the remaining metal and when letting in the new metal a lot of the welding is overhead, vertical or on less that clean metal.

Hence my original questions. I will have a look for some alternative rods that may better suit the less than perfect conditions.

As far as making the welds look good - none of my welds look good - but the grinder does help.

Thanks

Garry

[mcrover]

Garry, sorry to say it but if your welds dont look good then your not welding your just making a mess.

Thats what one of my bosses taught me and is true.

You cant just lay weld over something and expect it to stick.

The low Hyd or stainless rods would be a great idea and better suited to dirty crappy areas but again I would roll the MIG out and go get some gas as it will get rid of most of your problems.

Nothing welds rust so if you cant clean it up then you need to look at another way of doing it.

Have you considered a complete removal of the rear X member.

Sounds pretty major but if your spring hangers etc are all mounted to it then I would suggest looking at it as an option.

You could cut it back a bit with the oxy and then trim it when it is off then cut the old crap off the chassis and weld a properly restored one on.

It will probably take a lot longer and a fair bit more work but the end result will be strong and look good.

[101RRS]

I would roll the MIG out and go get some gas as it will get rid of most of your problems.

I was taught at my tech course that of all the 'then' welding methods, MIG must have absolute cleanliness - that was also confirmed with my own experience. It is less tolerant than stick welding to a less than perfect environment.

My original post asked a number of questions and these have been well answered by you and others and I am thankful of that. As I indicated the basic chassis structure is totally undamaged but some of the bottoms of the box sections in the outer X member are rusted out - the box sections that support the spring hangers have no base to rust out so are sound - I am happy with the job - was just seeking advice on how others handle less than perfect welding conditions.

I have considered a new X member but before spending upwards of $1000 and having to dismantle the whole rear of the vehicle I thought I would see what the damage was first - is actually less than anticipated - in rebuilding this it will generally be stronger than the original as I seem welding everything where the original was little more than tacked allowing moisture and dirt to migrate through all the box sections.

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

Garry

[Olive Drab]

from memory i think i have the details correct. years ago i used these they managed to weldover paint and all sorts of other crap. Currently using pacweld the ferrocraft should be cheaper than pacweld though.

[bblaze]

If you have gas, use this to clean away rust and scale in hard to get places. You dont need to heat red hot, just heat and then scatch at it with a screwdriver or chissel. Even works using a small gas welding tip in tight areas. I think any chassis work should be done with low hyrdogen rods, easier to use with a dc inverter. With low hyrdogen rod, before trying to strike an arc, break the flux off the rod tip as it burns hollow and you either bang it on the work to get the flux to brake or just break it off with a gloved hand to re-expose the electrode metal. Low hyrdogen rod are also a better rod for out of postion work.
cheers
blaze

[POD]

Just came across this, I have not read all the replies thoroughly (lost interest) so forgive me if I repeat, or contradict, others:
With regard to vertical welds, some electrodes work very well going down, others need to be used going up. A rod that works exceptionally well for vertical DOWN welds is the WIA 12p general purpose rod. I use these for all my stick welding unless i need a low carbon electrode, in which case the WIA 16tc is a good choice. If you use the CIG 'satincraft' rods, you will need to do your vertical welds going UP, and the technique is totally different.

for a vertical DOWN weld using the WIA 12p, hold the rod at about a 35-45degree angle from the horizontal pointing up under the bead of the weld, and draw the weld downward in one straight even flow. If you need more width, layer it just as you would a fillet weld on the horizontal. Once you have used these rods, you will not want anything else for vertical welds.

If you insist on using the satincraft (seems most popular with the handyman for some reason), vertical UP welds are done by working back and forth across the job, effectively building up a series of short horizontal welds. For example, to weld a vertical crack, you would start atthe bottom, strike the arc about 10mm to one side of the crack, weld across to 10mm the other side, move the arc up a few mm (with a momentary pause to keep it hot), back across on top of the bead you just laid, upagain on the other side and back across- sort of like laying a pile of matchsticks on edge on top of one another. You end up with a fat weld across the front of the crack. The weld has to be kept quite hot or you get slag inclusions. Much more difficult than a vertical DOWN weld done with a rod suited to the purpose.

If you use the WIA 16tc low-hydrogen electrode, they start very easily on the first use, but when you stop they glaze over at the tip- to start again with the same rod, I scrape the tip on the concrete floor first to remove the glaze.

Pete

[101RRS]

Pete

Thanks for that information that is really great - I have been using general use electrodes but yours and others comments have convinced me to buy specialist rods for the different positions I need to work in.

I have even bought a disposable gas bottle and regular to get my mig back up and running - it will be interesting to see how long the bottle lasts - I have been told that a light weight mig can weld 13feet of weld before the gas runs out.

My cheapie rods ftom Bunnings sound like your WIA 16tc low-hydrogen electrodes as mine are beasy to start at first but glaze over and I have learn't to do minimal stops in the weld if I want to keep the job going.

Thanks

Garry

[John W]

Reading through the replies I was going to say much the same as Pete then I came to his! Back in my welding days (before I could afford a landrover!) I would do an up weld with the rod at about 90 deg to the work and do a weave again about 1 cm either side spending more time with the rod on the sides than the centre. Get it too hot and it all flows to the ground. Not hot enough and it looks like pidgin poo.

A good up weld will have better penetration and strength than a good down weld but then I did say good & it is hard to keep the up welds good as a DIY. Down welds with good rods are a lot easier so that is what I would do too. Good luck

John