Freelander Diesel Check Engine Light

[101RRS]

My L series freelander diesel has a check engine light that comes on at startup when the engine is warm - does not come on on cold start up.

A few weeks back I towed a series 1 back home - 300km - no issues and the freelander towed at around 100kph in fourth and sometimes fifth when going down hill.

The next day on warm start up the check engine light came on. On cold start it is not on until the next warm start. Last year I had the same problem - was the water temp sensor - replaced it but check engine lite was still there but was all OK when ECU codes were cleared.

This time the symptoms were exactly the same so I replaced the water temp sensor ($20) and took the car in to have the codes cleared this morning.

Codes indicate there is a current fault when hot (intermittant when cold) with the fuel cutoff system in the injector fuel pump but doesn't actually say what the issue is. Could be the signal from the brakes is faulty (reduces fuelling when the brakes are applied), the fuel cutoff solenoid could be faulty but I don't think this has a direct feed back to the ECU - but could be done via other sensors that indicate the engine is being fuelled despite the ECU wanting to reduce. The RAVE highlights all the sensors and what they do but just indicate that the check engine light comes on and if a major fault the fuel cut-off solenoid activates to shut down the engine. If a semi -major fault the ECU turns on the check engine light and runs on a default setting for the faulty sensor so the engine runs on slightly reduced power - minor intermitant faults are only recorded in the ECU - nothing else.

The car runs fine - just down a little on power going up steep hills. To track the problem down will require investigation - diconnecting parts and checking them one by one - could be fixed quickly or painfully slowly - with the associated charges $$$$$$$:(. I need the car next week so I did not leave it for repair.

So - any thoughts. I am happy to replace sensors but the ECU still makes the check engine light to come on even if fixed until codes are cleared - why they did not design these things so that the driver could press a button the clear codes - and if they continue after being cleared another light "call repairman" comes on.

Thanks

Garry

[101RRS]

I guess that has everyone stumped :o- or my likely few L series owners on AULRO:(

Garry

[camel_landy]

Hi Gary,

As you say, go through & check all the obvious bits and make sure all of the electrical terminals are clean.

You say that it runs ine but down on power when under load... Have you had a look at the EGR valve? Could that be stuck??

Also check the air filter & hoses. Could they be clogged or starting to collapse?

That's where I'd start...

M

[101RRS]

Hi Gary,

As you say, go through & check all the obvious bits and make sure all of the electrical terminals are clean.

You say that it runs ine but down on power when under load... Have you had a look at the EGR valve? Could that be stuck??

Also check the air filter & hoses. Could they be clogged or starting to collapse?

That's where I'd start...

M

Thanks Mark - I thought you would be along.

I am happy to check the sensors one by one but without a testbook I cannot tell if the things are fixed or not - I am considering buying a reader - I would prefer a Scan Gauge II because it has a whole lot of other functions but they have really gone up in price lately.

I know I am preaching to the converted - but the reason it is down on power is because when there is a problem with sensor or a sensor reading the ECU switches to a preprogrammed default setting. According to the Rave this is normal for the L series.

However, that said I you thoughts on the EGR valve and hoses and filters are good ones and I will go through that this weekend.

The testbook did say that the problem was related to the fuel shutoff system in the injection pump so I will have a good look as this as well.

The problem is that you can fix things but the error code remains and makes the light stay on until the error code is clear - youn would think the ECU would know things have been fixed.

Thanks Mark

Helpful as always:D

Garry

[camel_landy]

However, that said I you thoughts on the EGR valve and hoses and filters are good ones and I will go through that this weekend.


I've not really fiddled much with the Freebee system but I have had a look at a couple of other diesel cars of a similar era. One in particular that stands out was a VW where the inlet hose was starting to collapse on full load. The air flow meter would sense the loss of throughput and would immediately put the engine into a limp/low-power mode... Hence the suggestion.

Testbook... Hmmm, that reminds me. I must talk to my neighbour. I found out the other day that he used to own the company that produces Testbook for Landrover. ;)

M

[101RRS]

Ok - drove to Melbourne and back yesterday - 1600km round trip in one day.

On cold start in Canberra - no issues - no check engine light - drove 720km non stop on one tank to Melbourne towing a box trailer - full power available - cruised at 110kph - no check engine light. Engine not turned off the entire trip.

Refulled a hot car in Dandenong - 55 litres. On restart - igntion on - no check engine light - crank engine - no check engine light - engine fires check light come on.

On the trip back home, as the engine was always hot, the check engine light stayed on and the ECU was in limp mode - of my 73kw available - felt like I was only getting about half available power - fuel consumption stayed good though.

So the scenarios:

1. Cold start, air temp below about 20 - no check engine light (check engine light does not come while engine is running) - engine has full power.

2. Cold start but air temp is above 20 - no check engine light on ignition on but it comes on when the engine fires - lite stays on - decreased power.

3. Hot engine and hot air temp - no check engine light on ignition on but comes on when the engine fires - light stays on - decreased power.

This is clearly related to temperature - the last time this happened I replaced the water temperature sensor and was all OK - I have replaced it again but this time but no fix.

I have had it on the testbook - no temperature issues raised - however it does show an issue associated with fuel shut off. This cannot be right as the check engine light does not come at all when the car starts normally - even after driving 700km at 110kph, towing a trailer at temps around 30 degrees C. During this trip - there would have been plenty of times the fuel shut-off system operated - each time I touched the brakes.

The testbook did not identify a faulty sensor but when all faults have been cleared from the ECU, is shows there is no fault when ignition is turned on, and the fault only shows when a warmed (or outside temp is high) engine is fired.

Any additional thoughts?

Thanks

Garry

[camel_landy]

???????

Confused... You will be! :confused:

Just thinking through what might be different on a warm start and the only thing that comes to mind are the glow plugs. I don't think there's anything clever going on there but it's a possibility???

If I remember, I'll ping an e-mail over to one of the guys I know in the Technical Academy to see how much he knows about the early Freebees. Don't hold your breath though... It would have been a ling time since he would have worked on one of these!!!

M

[101RRS]

Yes all so confusing and the kit that is supposed to sort this - the testbook - is no help.

Looks like it is time to spend the $$$ and get someone to fix it.

Garry

[TyGras]

I am no mechanic but I am an electronics technician. There might be a sensor that isnt registering a fault after it is hot till it gets a reset from the engine shutting off. This could trigger it to say oh I am hot or something and then the fault dignal is sent. To me if it was just a defective sensor it would trigger when it got hot. This to me sounds like an actual defect but the sensor has a heat issue and needs the ignition to be reset to register it.

My 2 cents worth... either a faulty sensor or a faulty sensor that is also detecting a real issue.

Good luck....

[camel_landy]

Yep, I'm with you on that one (Electronics & Electrical engineer by training here...). The problem comes with knowing how the ECU processes the information to give you the result. With that information, you can reverse engineer and work out which are the likely suspects...

I've e-mailed my mate so hopefully he might have an insight into how the info will be processed.

M


I am no mechanic but I am an electronics technician. There might be a sensor that isnt registering a fault after it is hot till it gets a reset from the engine shutting off. This could trigger it to say oh I am hot or something and then the fault dignal is sent. To me if it was just a defective sensor it would trigger when it got hot. This to me sounds like an actual defect but the sensor has a heat issue and needs the ignition to be reset to register it.

My 2 cents worth... either a faulty sensor or a faulty sensor that is also detecting a real issue.

Good luck....

[101RRS]

Was back on the test Book today - again something in the injection pump that only occurs on hot start. Again the rotton testbook cannot tell us anything except the fault is being generated in the area of the injection pump - doesn't say what sensor or anything else.

There is nothing wrong with the pump as evidenced by all being OK on cold starts even when it gets hot - it is just a hot start thing. The car is OK to drive just a little down on power (induced by the ECU).

The consensus is that the fuel temp sensor deep inside the injection pump maybe the cause - or maybe one of the solenoids but not the pump iteself.

However - to get to these electrical components the pump has to be removed, disassembled, sensors and anything else electrical replaced because when it is apart and the pump put back together. So a full injection pump rebuild is needed, even though it doesn't need it, all because the electric components are not where they can be easily accessed - the pump has to be pulled apart.

Cost is going to be over the top as injection pump rebuilds are expensive.

So - it stays as it is for the moment - long trips will be from cold starts and engine staying on - because there is no fault in this scenario.

Short trips around down doesn't matter.

As I am reasonably mechanical I have checked the RAVE but it does not seem to cover pulling the injection pump down. I will buy the electrical parts and if it easy to pull the pump down to replace them - I will do it next year as funding improves, if not the electrrical bits and the removed pump will go to a specialist to do the work - if i do the installing etc myself it will save costs.

I am surprised that it doesn't seem to be in the overhaul section of the RAVE - if anyone knows where it is please let me know the page number.

Thanks

Garry

[camel_landy]

Hi Garry,

I've just had a note back from my mate:


I never did a lot with the old L series but its a fairly basic EDC system.

What your friend needs to do when the fault is apparent (you can't find something that's not there) is monitor the outputs using T4 from, the Engine coolant, Air temperature and MAF sensors. This will show if the signals are being received by the ECM. If it shows a missing or incorrect signal he needs to firstly check the input into the sensor (in the case of the air and coolant temp this should be 5v) then check the earths to make sure they're okay (it may not be a faulty sensor it could just be a wiring or connector fault).
My thoughts are that the fault may well be in this area.

HTH

M

[101RRS]

Thanks Mark - I agree - it has to be something like that but I do not have a Test book so I am in the hands of the mechanics who just want to rebuild the injection pump even though it works OK - just drove 400km on a cold start with no issues - switch off and back on and fault appears.

Thanks

Garry

[landy63]

Thanks Mark - I agree - it has to be something like that but I do not have a Test book so I am in the hands of the mechanics who just want to rebuild the injection pump even though it works OK - just drove 400km on a cold start with no issues - switch off and back on and fault appears.

Thanks

Garry

Giday , if it were me mate i think at this stage i would hang my hat over the eng light , I would just wait and see what happens , if the mechanics cant tell you for sure what it is there is no point in rebuilding a vp37 fuel pump ( i personaly have not heard of one of these playing up) . As long as the eng has all the basics going for it ,let it go and eventualy it will reveal itself .
Allen

[101RRS]

Giday , if it were me mate i think at this stage i would hang my hat over the eng light , I would just wait and see what happens , if the mechanics cant tell you for sure what it is there is no point in rebuilding a vp37 fuel pump ( i personaly have not heard of one of these playing up) . As long as the eng has all the basics going for it ,let it go and eventualy it will reveal itself .
Allen

I somewhat agree except that when I start when it is hot it is in limp home mode - 3rd gear up any hill ay 60kph. Also if it is just a sensor the problem will continue for ever.

I just wish some good ole fashioned diognostics by a mechanic would come into play. The fact that it will run forever with no issues when started from cold but if switched off and back on has issues is of no interest to two seperate landrover specialists because the testbook does not tell then what to do.

The upside - the freelander's fuel consumption in limp mode is absolutely outstanding - over 50mpg on the highway vs about 40mpg normally on the highway.

More research I think.

Thanks everyone.

Garry

[landy63]

Sorry, did realise there was an issui with limp mode . Have read full post and have to agree is a bit of a mistery .

It is apparent that the problem is caursed by tempreture or some false report of heat above 20c . Not sure weather the maff has an air intake temp sensor in it , dont think so as far as i know the only thing the maff on an l series controlls is the egt .

Have you tried disconecting & reconnecting the battery ?, somtimes that will get rid of crap sensor readings from the ecu , edc.

can only sugest research around the following
Fuel temp sensor
Wireing harness at pump
Water temp sensor
Maybe even disconnecting various sensors i at a time .
Trottle position sensor .

Still dont think it is the pump , but somthing controlling pump .

Sorry if i have gone over stuff you have already tried .

Good luck with it , Allen

[101RRS]

Thanks Allen,

Cleared the codes with the testbook - that is where we clarified that the fault is not there when ignition is turned on but comes in on actual engine starts. The ECU then says there is an issue with the pump but doesn't actually say what sensor is causing the issue.

I have replaced the water temp sensor and will do the air temp sensor as well however the fuel temp sensor is built into the injection pump and requires the pump to be dismantled to replace it:mad:. What a stupid design - $2000 work to replace a $20 sensor. Apparently the pump is designed and built by Bosch so I would have thought the design would have been a bit better.

The reason the ECU switches to default and turns on the light because it does not recieve a reading from a sensor that it expects - so records the error etc - however the testbook cannot read this - seems to defeat the purpose of having a testbook.

Anyway - it is staying as it is - long trips will start in the morning when the car is cold, and limp mode is not so bad driving around down.

Garry

[101RRS]

Visited the stealer and two diesel specialists today - stealer admitted his staff were not well trained on landies and even had major problems looking up spare parts - I can attest to this - but he did indicate he can get me a new injector pump for $1500 if necessary.

Went to a well known diesel company - they believe that at 245,000km the pump is on its last legs combined with some electronic issues - the guy indicated that it should start when cold but will have issues when hot as it changes fuel pressure - this was spot on what is happening - but then the guy got crankie and said I was wasting his time - I guess he did not like my questions - here was me about to give him the job - and he just walks away - obviously too much work.

The second diesel company guy was excellant - he has electronic diagnostic equipment that bypasses that in the car and he can test the entire function of the pump and its own electronics on the bench. In the new year I will remove the pump and give it to him for testing. Fully testing the injection pump electronics through the landrover system is not possible.

While not familiar with Freelanders the Bosch injector pump and its electronics is well known - seems it is fitted to a few other cars including earlier model transit vans.

Before I put it in - I will make sure the connectors are all clean and OK.

Some progress at last.

Cheers

Garry

[landy63]

Good news , the pump is a vp37 direct injection , and is coman to a few vehicles , also BMW , Rovers , etc . hope all works out , with 245K on the clock your not doing to bad .!!:):)

[landy63]

Ps Dont for forget the shaft timing locking pin on pump removal.

[101RRS]

Ps Dont for forget the shaft timing locking pin on pump removal.

I do the belts on this engine myself in the past - the pin holds the engine and pump in alignment when the belt is being changed but this time the pump will be coming out and it will be being moved when bench tested - I need to check what records/alignments I need to note so that the pump goes back in with the correct alignment - I assume that if I have the pin in it can only go back in one way - but we know what happens when you assume:o.

The 6 Ps will be enacted before I do anything - Prior Preparation Prevents P%^s Poor Performance :D

Thanks

Garry

[101RRS]

I have found a diesel mechanic who knows about the Freelander injection systems (he drives a D3). He claims his Bosch diagnostic system has better capabilities than the landy systems as it can specifically diagnose the pump as well as the ECU as they are both Bosch on the Freelander. His systems can bypass the ECU and contol and test the pump and its systems while in place directly from diagnostic equipment.

He is of the same thought as me that as the pump is actually working fine and the problem is most likey a secondary electronic issue - but that still requires the pump to be pulled down to fix.

The car is booked in mid next week for the test.

However I have a a minor problem - rebuild is $2000 plus unfitting/refitting - new is $1700 plus unfitting/refitting, low mileage second hand is $1300 plus unfitting/refitting - normally I would wait until the diagnostic is done but I can get an as new pump from a new and unused engine that has come from the rover factory from ebay in the UK, now for just over $300 landed at my door. If I do not buy it now it is not likely to be there after the diagnostic.


Given that any minor work on my pump is going to cost more than that I am tempted to take a punt and buy it. I guess if I miss calculate I could always onsell it.

What do you think?

Garry

[landy63]

Giday , if it were me mate i think at this stage i would hang my hat over the eng light , I would just wait and see what happens , if the mechanics cant tell you for sure what it is there is no point in rebuilding a vp37 fuel pump ( i personaly have not heard of one of these playing up) . As long as the eng has all the basics going for it ,let it go and eventualy it will reveal itself .
Allen

Giday , been away for a while , glad to see that the prob has been sorted , good work .

[101RRS]

Installment 2 http://www.aulro.com/afvb/freelander/72072-oh-bug-ger-yippee.html