Hot engine won't start

[DiscoDave]

Not having driven my '54 86" for a while (it has been garaged elsewhere) I was really pleased when I went to collect it and it started first press of the button. After driving about 25km I needed fuel for the rest of the journey home and stopped at a servo.... and couldn't get it started again! Engine turns over alright but there's not a hint of ignition.
Faffed around for a while trying different combinations of choke and accelerator but still nothing. Pushed her clear of the bowser into a convenient space on the forecourt, checked all the leads under the bonnet were still there and called for backup. While I was waiting I tried again and after a long push of the button got the slightest hint of a fire at the end. Tried again with some choke and my foot to the floor and she fires up and idles nicely. I cancelled the backup and drove the 50km home without a problem (except a propensity to backfire going downhill).

There have been similar incidents before but none as bad as this, usually just a bit of accelerator gets it started when hot.

Does anyone have an idea what's going on?

[chazza]

Could be several things but these two spring to mind.

1. Running rich will cause difficult starting when hot and unburnt fuel will explode in the muffler on an over-run. Might be worth checking the carburettor but I am unfamiliar with the Solex (if this is what you have), so can't offer any specific advice. Make sure that the choke butterfly opens fully and isn't being caught by a fouled linkage, or frayed cable.

2. Weak spark from coil. Substitute a known good one when it plays-up and see if that improves things. In the meantime give the ignition system a thorough overhaul.

Cheers Charlie

[Scouse]

Points closing up?
Fuel in bowl vapourising?
Payback for neglect? :)

[rovercare]

Vapour lock:D

[series1buff]

dave

After a long run ,take a spark plug out and observe what colour it is ..if it's a dark sooty black.. your running rich ... also look at the exhaust pipe end and check for black sooty colour ..it should be a greyish colour .

It could be petrol starvation too .. you said it started with some choke .. a clue there ..

I agree with the comment.. do a thorough check of the ignition system and put a new coil in .. makes a big difference. A weak spark will cause inefficient burning of the fuel ... this can lead to fouled plugs too . The condenser is a off the shelf item at super crap auto .

Mike

[DiscoDave]

Thanks for your replies everyone... except Scouse <_<.... :D,
So I need to check the plug condition, the points gap, butterfly opening, replace the coil and condenser (brand/ part no. at SuperCheap?), 'overhaul' the ignition (getting hazy here...) and try adjusting the mixture.

What is 'vapour lock' is that the same as "Fuel in bowl vapourising" and how do I fix it if it's happening? :confused:

[Blknight.aus]

the greyish colour of the pipe is no longer as good an indicator as it used to be now that we dont have lead in the fuel...

try hand priming the carby prior to starting it or giving it a sniff of areostart to fling it over and let the engine prime itself up.

it might also be a points thing and the quickest and easiest way to prove or disprove that one is to put a test plug straight off of the coil and place it somewhere you can see it then fire it over if it sparks nicely then you know it s a fuel issue and providing it was a warmish day Id suggest a vapour lock or all the fuel evaporating out of the carby.

[JDNSW]

the greyish colour of the pipe is no longer as good an indicator as it used to be now that we dont have lead in the fuel...

try hand priming the carby prior to starting it or giving it a sniff of areostart to fling it over and let the engine prime itself up.


This is a series 1 with an electric pump - no priming! but listen to the pump - no clicks, find out why (sick pump or wiring) - clicks do not stop; either flooding (new needle and seat or perforated float), or the pump is pumping vapour, probably due to a partly blocked strainer on the tank pickup or on the inlet to the pump or (unlikely) the fuel line is too close to the exhaust - from memory it is nowhere near it).

it might also be a points thing and the quickest and easiest way to prove or disprove that one is to put a test plug straight off of the coil and place it somewhere you can see it then fire it over if it sparks nicely then you know it s a fuel issue and providing it was a warmish day Id suggest a vapour lock or all the fuel evaporating out of the carby.

My guess is that it is a fuel issue as indicated, but a sick coil or other ignition component is possible (coils are the most likely to be heat sensitive)

John

[Blknight.aus]

slightly different but near enough to the same.

a vapour lock is where the fuel in the fuel line evaporates. the kicker is this.

as the pump "sucks" on the fuel line the pressure lowers, as the pressure lowers so does the vaporising point of the fuel. when the 2 get close enough the fuel in the line evaporates faster than the pump can shift it so you dont get any fuel just vapour hitting the carby.

Its a bigger problem on mechanical pumped engines as you either have to get out and hand prime OR wind the engine on the starter to get it to lift fuel to the carby. On an electric pumped engine just wait 10 minutes and try again, (treat it the same as below) the first order of the day on the preventative measure side is to make the suction line as short as possable, move the pump if you can and preferabley put it somewhere where there will be airflow over it when the vehicle is stopped

the fuel evaporating out of the carby bowl is simply a case of the residual heat in the engine causing the fuel in the carby to evaporate, cranking the engine over will usually overcome this as the fuel in the line should still be cool enough to not vaporise so the carby will fill up fairly quickly. If you have an electric fuel pump its just a case of turning the ignition on and waiting 15-20 seconds prior to trying to start the engine, usually you will hear the pump ticking or whirring away and when the carby reaches the correct fuel level the needle and seat closes, the fuel pressure in the line rises and the pump slows down.

[DiscoDave]

Hmmm... I had a look at things today:
Plugs - were black and oily. Cleaned them.
Plug gap - they were .030". I changed them to .025" but since find that figure is valid only for earlier models so I'd better change them back again.
Exhaust - black.
Distributor - Removed bodgy and broken earth wiring installed by previous owner and replaced it with my own bodgy earth wiring arranged in such a way that the vacuum advance can still operate! Lubricated as per Instruction Manual. Filed points with 600 grade and wiped clean. Replaced a missing circlip on the points fulcrum and a missing split pin on the vacuum advance linkage.
Points gap - HUGE - set it back to around .014".
Condenser - replaced it with identical one from my parts box.
Cap and HT leads - in pretty good nick.
Coil - I don't have a spare so left it alone.
Fuel Pump - Electric Holden thing. It ticks and pumps plenty of fuel. (Too much pressure?)
Solex Carbi - Appears to leak from every gasket but could be just seepage from a leaking fuel inlet union at the top. (Needs a new washer)
Butterfly Opening - Appears to open and close fully with accelerator operation. Can't see any change when operating the choke.
Slow Running Adjustments - Followed the Instruction Manual procedure but unable to obtain 'hunting'. I'd wound the volume screw so far out I thought it was going to drop on the floor! :confused: Wound it in a few turns and reset the idle speed to ~500rpm. I'll try again after a test run.

After all this I tried stopping and starting the motor a few times (with the accelerator pedal depressed as per manual instruction for hot starting) and had no problems but the engine was really only 'warm' rather than hot so I'll see what happens on a test run.
;)

[JDNSW]

Choke on this carbie is an "enrichment device" - opens up an extra jet. From memory it has only two stages -i.e. it is not progressive. The inability to adjust the idling suggests the mixture is too rich beyond the range of adjustment to compensate. This may be because of internal leaks in the carburetter or because the petrol level is too high (worn needle and seat of leaky float) or possibly excessive fuel pressure . Sounds as if it could do with an overhaul. But the ignition problems you have indicated could be enough to cause your problems.

John

[DiscoDave]

You're correct about the choke John, it has a three position detent (albeit not a very positive one) - 'rich', 'warm up' and 'normal'. i.e. two choke positions, as you said.

[Aaron IIA]

You need to be able to get a 10mm+ SHARP BLUE spark, not a 5mm FURRY YELLOW spark from the plug end of all of the leads. If not, trace the line back to the coil, and replace the falty part. Mine was the carbon brush in the centre of the distributor cap. I replaced the carbon brush only, for about $1.

Aaron.

[DiscoDave]

I replaced the carbon brush only, for about $1.
Can you tell me where you got it from?

[chazza]

Well done Dave on your investigative servicing so far!

It is also a good idea to run the engine in the dark and look closely for any blue light from the high-tension leads, or emanating from the distributor cap. This is a much less painful way than feeling for the electric shock ;) If you see any blueness, replace the leads etc. with new ones.

The carburettor sounds like it needs a complete strip down and re-build, remember to check the throttle bushes for wear. I am at the same stage with my 80",

Cheers Charlie

[series1buff]

The older type black PVC ignition leads with a copper conductor, are becoming nigh on impossible to find these days.... believe it or not REPCO still stock the stuff and sell it per metre ( about 2$ a metre ) .... You have to cut it to length and fit accordingly . I haven't bought any for a while ... so ask at your local store . I think it is slightly thinner than the original stuff.. but beggars can't be choosers .

The condenser I used is a Bosch unit I think.. on the shelf at Super C Auto .. It's physically same dimension as the original ..I cannot find the package it came in . Don't know if its he same uf, I mean the same capacity .. you'd need a capacity meter to check that out ..I think the average automotive cap. is around .025 uf . .. they reckon too much or too little burns the points .

Mike

[DiscoDave]

Well I'm completely lost now... :(
After setting the spark plug gaps back to .030", fitting an electric water temp gauge (as the 'original' mechanical one was stuffed), and trying to get the oil pressure switch to work (almost got it!) I try to start her up so I can see if the temp gauge works. Can I start it? NO.:mad:
Freshly charged battery, good spark from the HT leads, crank... crank... crank... etc.
Remembered fiddling with the volume screw on the carbi so I set that back to where I estimate it was. crank... crank... crank... etc.
Finally give up on the cold start procedure push the choke in, put the foot to the floor, crank... crank... crank... and it fires up!
Idles okay for long enough for the temp gauge to register something - because of the size of the thread I had to use a sensor I found kicking around in my parts box and I didn't know if it worked at all, let alone with my nice new Centigrade gauge. It seems to work, yay! :D
For some reason I decide to rev the engine for a bit. Engine revs up for maybe a minute and then dies.
Now I can't start the engine hot or cold.:(

I know, I know... carbi overhaul.

[DiscoDave]

The older type black PVC ignition leads with a copper conductor, are becoming nigh on impossible to find these days....

Mike, I got some from the 'Vintage Wiring Harness' stand at Eastern Creek earlier this year. Fits in the dizzy very well and looks identical to the stuff that's currently there. Search for vinwire if you're interested. ;)

[Aaron IIA]

Narva still market a copper core ignition wire. I buy it by the meter at the local shop. Anybody who stocks Narva produts can order it in. Another local shop sells cotton covered copper core ignition wire in black and brown multi-colour. This is more expensive than the Narva product.

The carbon brush, I bought from the local car parts shop (independant). It was a Bosch product. It was a generic distributor cap brush. You need to have a decent amount of brush springing out from the cap to ensure that it contacts the rotor button.

I still think your problem may be weak spark. Have you checked how long a spark you can get? You need at least 10mm at the plug, preferably more.

Aaron.

[chazza]

I agree with Aaron; it seems that the carburettor is delivering petrol otherwise it would not have run at all.

Presumably the compression pressures are adequate, which is another reason for hard-starting, so I would be most suspicious of the coil.

I once had tremendous trouble with the coil in my P6, which would behave erratically, but substituting an ancient old coil off my saw bench proved it to be the culprit. The visual difference in spark was barely noticeable as well, to further confuse the issue. Try substituting one off any of your cars, you will only need it for ten minutes and can then return it. New coils are only about $35 so it is not a disaster to buy one and then find it was not needed,

Cheers Charlie

[dennisS1]

Just a note or two, 80% of all fuel problems are ignition.
The points may have been set wide due to play in the rotor drive shaft, when adjusting point gap push the shaft away. I have seen this type of problem and by setting the gap wide it fixes it.
If you change the coil remember it needs to have a inbuilt resistor. the only ones I know of are the Bosch HT40s they come in both types, chances are the staff at Auto ****** wont know what you are talking about.
If you have a good SU pump, vaporisation will not be a problem I have seen 86" working very hard on 45deg days boiling their heads off and a few clicks of the pump 2 or 3 good pumps of the pedal and away they go.
On a hot start you should not use the primer.
If you would like to talk about your problem PM me your number.
Dennis

[Aaron IIA]

If you change the coil remember it needs to have a inbuilt resistor. the only ones I know of are the Bosch HT40s they come in both types, chances are the staff at Auto ****** wont know what you are talking about.

You need to ask for a 12V coil, designed to operate with no ballast resistor. The other version, a 12V coil designed to operate with a ballast resistor, is actually a 9V coil. The voltage is dropped to suit, accross a ballast resistor. The benefit of this is that during cranking, the ballast resistor is by-passed, providing 12V to the 9V coil. The result is a stronger spark while cranking. This compensates for the voltage drop in the battery due to the cranking current. Early Land Rovers do not have a provision for this in their circuit, so will deliver 12V (14V when running) constantly to the coil. This will result in a stronger spark, but will burn out the coil and points.

Aaron.

[series1buff]

I'm a bit confused here ( not hard to do ! ) . From what Dennis said , 12V coils now come with a resistor inbuilt inside them ? ..I've never heard of that.

You can get high performance coils .. these have higher HT voltage output than normal .. I think I've seen them at SC auto...bright Orange .

I agree about the SU pump... there shouldn't be any problem with vapourising.. even on the hottest day.

[Aaron IIA]

I have never heard of, nor experienced, any coil with a built in resistor. The whole idea of the resistor is so that you can short it out to get a temporary boost in performance while cranking. This would not be possible if the resistor were internal.

Aaron.

[Blknight.aus]

Its really old school stuff from the days when you used to have to crank start.

hasnt been in common usage since about (WAG) the 70's

[JDNSW]

Its really old school stuff from the days when you used to have to crank start.

hasnt been in common usage since about (WAG) the 70's

Actually I think the coil ballast resistor is a hangover from 6v systems, which needed every possible help to start, especially in cold climates. Never was used to any extent except by Americans.

John

[series1buff]

Actually I think the coil ballast resistor is a hangover from 6v systems, which needed every possible help to start, especially in cold climates. Never was used to any extent except by Americans.

John

Yes . I had a 1941 Ford truck with the 4.5 volt coil .. it was a proper rotten thing as it always played up... the resistor would heat up to the point of becoming a current limiter .. it was a special wire wound on a ceramic former .. the resistor was in circuit permanently . I dropped the voltage reg. output down a bit and it did improve slightly ..but would still play up.. the coil sat right on top of the ' divers bell' distributor.. right down in the heat wave spot, near the radiator . It would always start .. even with a almost dead flat battery ... but after the resistor heated up.. pain .
Mike

[Blknight.aus]

my bad, I was talking about the internally resisted coil not an externally ballasted jobbie.

I have never worked out why the hell it was done but my best guess is it has something to do with current limiting which might have extended spark plug/lead/points life.

[Aaron IIA]

coil designed to operate with a ballast resistor, is actually a 9V coil. The voltage is dropped to suit, accross a ballast resistor. The benefit of this is that during cranking, the ballast resistor is by-passed, providing 12V to the 9V coil. The result is a stronger spark while cranking. This compensates for the voltage drop in the battery due to the cranking current.

A lot of "modern" (1980's and 1990's) cars that I look at have a ballasted coil set up. I know from recent experience that Mitsubishi and Suziki definitely do.

Aaron.

[JDNSW]

my bad, I was talking about the internally resisted coil not an externally ballasted jobbie.

I have never worked out why the hell it was done but my best guess is it has something to do with current limiting which might have extended spark plug/lead/points life.

There is no reason for an internal resistor, and I have never known of a system with one. But a certain amount of resistance is needed to limit the current - for example if the ignition is left on with the points closed - to prevent damage to the points or to the coil. Normally the way to do this would be to use thinner wire, but some early coils would overheat in this case, so an external ballast resistor was added - the idea of shorting it out to help starting came later. However, by the thirties improvements in coil design (mainly putting the primary on the outside so it cooled better) made this unnecessary, and the ballast was only retained for starting, mainly with six volt systems, although as others have mentioned it was retained by quite a few 12v systems.

John

[Aaron IIA]

Yes . I had a 1941 Ford truck with the 4.5 volt coil .. it was a proper rotten thing as it always played up... the resistor would heat up to the point of becoming a current limiter .. it was a special wire wound on a ceramic former .. the resistor was in circuit permanently . I dropped the voltage reg. output down a bit and it did improve slightly ..but would still play up.. the coil sat right on top of the ' divers bell' distributor.. right down in the heat wave spot, near the radiator . It would always start .. even with a almost dead flat battery ... but after the resistor heated up.. pain .
Mike

Mike,
it sounds like you were having some problems with your truck (was that the Puddle Jumper?). My Ford Blitz works fine. Dropping the voltage regulator output voltage would result in the battery not being properly charged. It must have had a problem elsewhere. Original Ford coils are known to give problems. The internal wax insulation often breaks down giving shorts, even in NOS coils. If you want to keep running a bell style coil, keep looking until you find a good one. I have a source in Adelaide if you get stuck.

Aaron.

[DiscoDave]

Well, to answer Aarons's question about good spark I made my own 'spark tester' (with 10mm gap) to let me see what was going on when I cranked the motor. The spark was NOT good after all! It seems the condenser I found was not as suitable as I thought so I put the old one back in and the spark was much improved. However this hasn't helped the starting/running problem which continues to mystify me. The carburettor now seems to drizzle fuel continually from the small copper inverted 'U' pipe. The engine will now start from cold with no choke and will idle okay for a while but if I try to rev it it dies after 30 seconds or so and I can't restart it. While idling the exhaust spits black smuts and the plugs become blackened. I visited Repco to get some fibre washers to relace the ones in the dripping fuel union. With new washers it now leaks like a sieve! :confused: I just don't get it...

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Choke on this carbie is an "enrichment device" - opens up an extra jet. From memory it has only two stages -i.e. it is not progressive. The inability to adjust the idling suggests the mixture is too rich beyond the range of adjustment to compensate. This may be because of internal leaks in the carburetter or because the petrol level is too high (worn needle and seat of leaky float) or possibly excessive fuel pressure . Sounds as if it could do with an overhaul. But the ignition problems you have indicated could be enough to cause your problems.

John

I was going to say the same thing, but add that a low bowl level, plus crap in the bottom of the bowl.
With the fuel pump, do you have a return line to the tank or is it just one line with no return???
If you have an electric pump, you should have a return with some kind of minor restriction, back to the tank. It could be that the pump is flooding the bowl also.

[JDNSW]

..........
If you have an electric pump, you should have a return with some kind of minor restriction, back to the tank. It could be that the pump is flooding the bowl also.

The original SU pump did not have a return line (they give a fixed pressure regardless of flow rate), so this does not apply to all electric pumps. If fitted with the original SU, or a near copy, there should be no problem. But if it is another type of electric pump, then there is a very good chance that the pressure is excessive (the persistent leak from the fuel inlet to the carburetter certainly supports this).

The ideal thing would be to fit a more suitable pump. I can't find delivery pressure data - probably because it is fixed by the spring in the pump, not adjustable, and never a problem! But it would help when assessing whether it is a problem. It is worth noting that the SU pump was always installed close to the carburetter and at about the same height, but many more modern electric pumps are designed to be installed close to the fuel tank, and hence need to deliver higher pressure. Installing them where the SU was may well cause problems from excessive pressure.

John

[Aaron IIA]

I support the idea of excessive fuel pressure, or leaking needle and seat. This would give the symptoms provided. My SU failed, so temporarily I have installed a Facet electric pump. This does not flood the carburettor. It is in the SU pump position. I would suggest that you clean and kit the carburettor. It makes a huge improvement.

Aaron.

[Aaron IIA]

Well, to answer Aarons's question about good spark I made my own 'spark tester' (with 10mm gap) to let me see what was going on when I cranked the motor.

Make it a little bit exciting. Insert a two inch piece of fencing wire into the plug lead end. Hold the lead a bit back from the end. Two or three inches is fine. Start the engine, and experiment to see how long you can get the spark. Much more interesting. You should not get a shock if you only touch the insulated part of the lead. These old systems (conventional coils) only provide a modest spark when compared to the modern electronic ignition coil packs, like on commodores without distributors.

Aaron.

[Aaron IIA]

I visited Repco to get some fibre washers to relace the ones in the dripping fuel union. With new washers it now leaks like a sieve! :confused: I just don't get it...

Buy a set of hole punches. The type that you hit the top of with a hammer. Get a sheet of gasket paper. It comes in various thicknesses. You should be able to buy a small sheet (a dollar or two) or by the meter. Then cut your own fibre gaskets. If it still leaks, put on two or three to build up the thickness.

Aaron.

[dennisS1]

People haven’t heard of inbuilt ballast resistors. This may be the wrong way to describe the difference between coils that are built to have an external resistor and ones that don’t due to higher internal resistance if so I am sorry but every one I have ever spoken to refers to them as internal or external.
To make sure I am not confusing people I will explain what I was talking about. This only refers to early English cars such as S1 Land Rovers and Minis etc.
As an example of a car that uses an external resistor let use a Holden Red motor, the resistance is built into the wiring, so that when stating the full battery voltage is applied to the coil and when you release the key back to on the coil is supplied thought the external resister and as someone stated probably around 9V. This improves starting.
If you run a coil that needs an external ballast resistor on a S1 the coil will run very hot thus its life is shortened and they can intermittently break down.
I used the Bosch GT40 as an example as it is the only one still available that I know of and is commonly stocked, as a reference it even states Series 1 Land Rover on the packet. Remember this coil also comes in two other formats GT40R and GT40RT that do not suit early English cars. You may still be able to get Lucas but I don’t know where and the GT40 packs a good punch. You need to paint it to get rid of the orange/red colour not very English.
A quick Google of automotive coils will confirm what I stated or talk to your friendly auto elec, if he is over 40. Feel your S1 coil after a 20 K drive if it takes your skin off it is the wrong one.
Sorry if my first post confused people but this is a common mistake and I have burnt my hand on more than one series Land Rover due to it having the wrong coil

[JDNSW]

People haven’t heard of inbuilt ballast resistors. This may be the wrong way to describe the difference between coils that are built to have an external resistor and ones that don’t due to higher internal resistance if so I am sorry but every one I have ever spoken to refers to them as internal or external.
To make sure I am not confusing people I will explain what I was talking about. This only refers to early English cars such as S1 Land Rovers and Minis etc.
As an example of a car that uses an external resistor let use a Holden Red motor, the resistance is built into the wiring, so that when stating the full battery voltage is applied to the coil and when you release the key back to on the coil is supplied thought the external resister and as someone stated probably around 9V. This improves starting.
If you run a coil that needs an external ballast resistor on a S1 the coil will run very hot thus its life is shortened and they can intermittently break down.
I used the Bosch GT40 as an example as it is the only one still available that I know of and is commonly stocked, as a reference it even states Series 1 Land Rover on the packet. Remember this coil also comes in two other formats GT40R and GT40RT that do not suit early English cars. You may still be able to get Lucas but I don’t know where and the GT40 packs a good punch. You need to paint it to get rid of the orange/red colour not very English.
A quick Google of automotive coils will confirm what I stated or talk to your friendly auto elec, if he is over 40. Feel your S1 coil after a 20 K drive if it takes your skin off it is the wrong one.
Sorry if my first post confused people but this is a common mistake and I have burnt my hand on more than one series Land Rover due to it having the wrong coil

You are right - there are two kinds of coil, those designed for a (external) ballast resistor and those that are designed to run directly on 12v. But these do not have an internal ballast resistor - they simply use thinner wire on the primary and are designed to not overheat on 12v. (sometimes described as a 8v coil or a 12v coil) One thing that should be added is that the external ballast resistor on many vehicles is not a discreet component, but is simply the wire from the main harness to the coil - not recognising this and replacing it with ordinary wire is a favourite way of killing the coil.

I cannot think of any post war English engine that uses a ballasted coil except perhaps for US derived engines (I have an idea that some Rover V8s do, for example)


And using the wrong coil will always give trouble - use a 12v coil with a ballast resistor, and you will get poor spark, and consequent poor performance. Use a 8v coil designed for use with a ballast directly on 12v, and you will end up with a cooked coil (although modern ones will survive quite a while) and burnt points, but you will have a really good spark while it lasts.

John

[DiscoDave]

I don't have the original fuel pump, it has been replaced in the past by some type of Holden (I was told) electric pump located on the chassis rail near the fuel tank. There is no return line only a single line, heavily modified (butchered) with in-line fuel filters and rubber hoses in places. It has however run fine in this configuration since I bought it.
Today I dismantled and cleaned the carbi, spraying out all the jets. On reassembly I was able to run the engine for a while but there was fuel dribbling into the carbi throat all the time the fuel pump was on which can't be right.

[rovercare]

You are right - there are two kinds of coil, those designed for a (external) ballast resistor and those that are designed to run directly on 12v. But these do not have an internal ballast resistor - they simply use thinner wire on the primary and are designed to not overheat on 12v. (sometimes described as a 8v coil or a 12v coil) One thing that should be added is that the external ballast resistor on many vehicles is not a discreet component, but is simply the wire from the main harness to the coil - not recognising this and replacing it with ordinary wire is a favourite way of killing the coil.

I cannot think of any post war English engine that uses a ballasted coil except perhaps for US derived engines (I have an idea that some Rover V8s do, for example)


And using the wrong coil will always give trouble - use a 12v coil with a ballast resistor, and you will get poor spark, and consequent poor performance. Use a 8v coil designed for use with a ballast directly on 12v, and you will end up with a cooked coil (although modern ones will survive quite a while) and burnt points, but you will have a really good spark while it lasts.

John

8V coil? must be earlier than anything I've touched, as anything with a ballast resistor is 9.6V

Its not thinner wire as such, its merely the number of turns in the windings, this is the current limiting and Voltage output factor

A coil is merely a transformer, that changes 9.6/12V to High tension, 20-40ish KV

And yes, useing the wrong coil is bad, and when a 9.6v coil is used continuously on 12V, the blow up good and oil sprays everywhere...................well I was 13 and it was a Datsun 1600 paddock bomb
:angel:

[DiscoDave]

Here are some photos I took when I was dismantling the distributor:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/947.jpg
I'm fairly sure that split pin is not meant to be there.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/948.jpg
The brown wire was supposed to supply a good earth connection for the points and condenser, unfortunately it also prevented the vacuum advance from working!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/949.jpg
Things get a little worn in 50+ years... The condensor didn't fit in the niche in the distributor mechanism and had almost worn through rubbing on the cam.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/950.jpg
I found this amongst the sundries in the seat-box. Obviously not a Land Rover spare but possibly useful.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/951.jpg
Inside the New Era box was this.

;)

[JDNSW]

I don't have the original fuel pump, it has been replaced in the past by some type of Holden (I was told) electric pump located on the chassis rail near the fuel tank. There is no return line only a single line, heavily modified (butchered) with in-line fuel filters and rubber hoses in places. It has however run fine in this configuration since I bought it.
Today I dismantled and cleaned the carbi, spraying out all the jets. On reassembly I was able to run the engine for a while but there was fuel dribbling into the carbi throat all the time the fuel pump was on which can't be right.

That shows either the pressure is excessive or the needle valve and seat need replacing or the float has a hole in it. Or possibly there is an internal leak in the carburetter.

John

[series1buff]

hi Dave

My limited experience with the carbies says: they are sensitive to fuel pressure .. you need from, 1.5 to 2.5 psi max . The needle/seat design is a old 1930's Solex thing .. originally set up for gravity feed systems .. they typically used a autovac vacuum sucking tank on the dash and a gravity feed to the carby..on Morris' and such. The needle/seat has two tiny holes that appear to meter the fuel flow into the fuel bowl... I've seen some with larger holes for some reason..possibly for motors with a higher fuel demand..6 cyl. ?

The gasket between the main body and the accelerator pump unit.. tends to weep petrol. I made a new one , but it still weeps very slightly ..
Mike

[series1buff]

Mike,
it sounds like you were having some problems with your truck (was that the Puddle Jumper?). My Ford Blitz works fine. Dropping the voltage regulator output voltage would result in the battery not being properly charged. It must have had a problem elsewhere. Original Ford coils are known to give problems. The internal wax insulation often breaks down giving shorts, even in NOS coils. If you want to keep running a bell style coil, keep looking until you find a good one. I have a source in Adelaide if you get stuck.

Aaron.

Aaron,

I sold the Ford years ago ( to a movie company..it was used in a local movie, "The nun and the bandit" ) ..but I've still got 3 Ford coils ( divers bell type ) . One is brand new , made in Australia, a aftermarket brand ! If you need them .. your welcome to them.

[DiscoDave]

The float seems fine with no sign of a hole or fluid inside. The needle and seat looks new and has two comparatively large holes feeding fuel to the bowl. The lever which raises the needle seems worn so I'll fiddle with that for a bit...
:(

[JDNSW]

The float seems fine with no sign of a hole or fluid inside. The needle and seat looks new and has two comparatively large holes feeding fuel to the bowl. The lever which raises the needle seems worn so I'll fiddle with that for a bit...
:(

Looking at the manuals I have on this carburetter, it seems that the accelerator pump actually contains two diaphragms. The outer one is the accelerator pump one, but the inner one is referred to as the "economy action membrane", and has the note that if it is perforated you will have a rich mixture at all times, especially at small throttle openings. Perhaps this is the problem.

But excessive wear on the lever that operates the needle valve will result in too high a petrol level, which will also cause a rich mixture.


John

[Aaron IIA]

Today I dismantled and cleaned the carbi, spraying out all the jets. On reassembly I was able to run the engine for a while but there was fuel dribbling into the carbi throat all the time the fuel pump was on which can't be right.

Did you re-assemble the carburettor with all new gaskets, seals and accelerator pump diaphrams? What did you clean it with? Use either proper carburettor cleaner, or I have been told methylethylketone (MEK, PVC priming fluid). It does make a big difference when the carburettor is clean with new seals.

Aaron.

[DiscoDave]

John - both diaphragms in the accelerator pump seemed in good condition. I couldn't follow it's operation though, when you press the accelerator the linkage seems to prevent the lever on the end of the pump from working???

Aaron - I just dismantled and cleaned with "Carburettor and Throttle Body Cleaner" then reassembled. I have no 'carbi-kit' as yet. Can you tell me a good place to source one?

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

The original SU pump did not have a return line (they give a fixed pressure regardless of flow rate), so this does not apply to all electric pumps. If fitted with the original SU, or a near copy, there should be no problem. But if it is another type of electric pump, then there is a very good chance that the pressure is excessive (the persistent leak from the fuel inlet to the carburetter certainly supports this).

The ideal thing would be to fit a more suitable pump. I can't find delivery pressure data - probably because it is fixed by the spring in the pump, not adjustable, and never a problem! But it would help when assessing whether it is a problem. It is worth noting that the SU pump was always installed close to the carburetter and at about the same height, but many more modern electric pumps are designed to be installed close to the fuel tank, and hence need to deliver higher pressure. Installing them where the SU was may well cause problems from excessive pressure.

John

The intank pump fitted to V8s with Solex 175 carbs is an AC Delco CD600.
Fuel pressure is 4-6 psi. This is about the maximum for any non performance carby setup.
Holley Reds are internally regulated to this pressure and the Blue is regulated to 15psi, but is usually accompanied by a regulator at the carby and a return line off the regulator back to the tank.
The thing with carbies is that you only need fuel pressure that will provide enough fuel at W.O.T. The most important thing is the volume. It doesnt matter if you only have 1psi at the needle, as long as it can provide the volume to keep the seat loaded by the float at full noise.

Cheers

Andrew.

[JDNSW]

John - both diaphragms in the accelerator pump seemed in good condition. I couldn't follow it's operation though, when you press the accelerator the linkage seems to prevent the lever on the end of the pump from working???


I have difficulty understanding it myself with the description of its operation in front of me! But it depends on the manifold vacuum pressure on the outside of the inner diaphragm. The lever on the accelerator pump only operates as the throttle is opened. Once the throttle is open, the lack of vacuum on the inner diaphragm allows a spring to move the diaphragm and unseat a ball valve allowing fuel to flow through the economy jet (the one on the float bowl side of the accelerator pump base), which in this situation supplements the main jet.

John

[snowbound]

Hmmm... I had a look at things today:
Plugs - were black and oily. Cleaned them.
Plug gap - they were .030". I changed them to .025" but since find that figure is valid only for earlier models so I'd better change them back again.
Exhaust - black.
Distributor - Removed bodgy and broken earth wiring installed by previous owner and replaced it with my own bodgy earth wiring arranged in such a way that the vacuum advance can still operate! Lubricated as per Instruction Manual. Filed points with 600 grade and wiped clean. Replaced a missing circlip on the points fulcrum and a missing split pin on the vacuum advance linkage.
Points gap - HUGE - set it back to around .014".
Condenser - replaced it with identical one from my parts box.
Cap and HT leads - in pretty good nick.
Coil - I don't have a spare so left it alone.
Fuel Pump - Electric Holden thing. It ticks and pumps plenty of fuel. (Too much pressure?)
Solex Carbi - Appears to leak from every gasket but could be just seepage from a leaking fuel inlet union at the top. (Needs a new washer)
Butterfly Opening - Appears to open and close fully with accelerator operation. Can't see any change when operating the choke.
Slow Running Adjustments - Followed the Instruction Manual procedure but unable to obtain 'hunting'. I'd wound the volume screw so far out I thought it was going to drop on the floor! :confused: Wound it in a few turns and reset the idle speed to ~500rpm. I'll try again after a test run.

After all this I tried stopping and starting the motor a few times (with the accelerator pedal depressed as per manual instruction for hot starting) and had no problems but the engine was really only 'warm' rather than hot so I'll see what happens on a test run.
;)

Beats me how it ran at all! Coil would be my first suspect.

[series1buff]

Dave

you might try the other forum ... there's a topic there on this subject.

Trans Tasman Land Rover Series 1 Register Forum &bull; View topic - Carburettor specialists (http://www.lrseries1online.no-ip.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=364)

[DiscoDave]

Just a bit of feedback on this topic - it seems I was chasing two problems simultaneously, there was an intermittent loss of spark from the distributor taking place as well as carbie problems. The connection between the coil and the points was found to be open circuit after the engine last stopped unexpectedly - cleaning up the terminals and replacing the cable seems to have fixed that.
Ian Harvie from LROCS had a thorough look at the carburetter before Xmas and found the pump injector assembly was broken, the accelerator pump assembly was sticking and the needle valve was leaking. I also suspect the electric pump is supplying too high a pressure and I may have aggravated this by replacing the inline fuel filters (there were two) with one new one.
The pump injector assembly has been replaced, the accelerator pump repaired and I'll be ordering a new needle valve and washer. As to the fuel pressure I hope to revert to the original fuel pump system in the new year or failing that install a pressure regulator.
For now she's running rich but at least she's running! Thanks to everyone who helped. :)

[chazza]

You little ripper!

Always nice to get to the bottom of a persistent problem. :D