My 97 TDI Disco has died....HELP!!!!

[edvanr]

Hi Guys,
I am in a major world of pain and would really appreciate some advice.
Here is the serious of events that has left 400km between me and my Disco…


1) 2 weeks ago I took it on a 1200km trip (600 each way) towing a boat which weighted about 1.2tonne. My first real trip with it and it went perfectly, I was very happy…
I get my car serviced by a trusted and reputable mechanic (the same guy who sold me the truck), I drop a bit of cash on a full service and several other items, including a replacement of the expansion tank (genuine part) as it had a slight crack.
I drive from Sydney to Melbourne towing a big trailer with about 500kg in it.
In high revs (4th gear) on a slight hill I hear a slight hissing noise from the engine. When I reduce the revs all is fine. I plan to pull over at the next servo and check it out, next thing I know I look at the engine temp and it is red lined, 2 seconds later the engine dies, I come to a rolling stop and smoke is coming from the bonnet. Not a good feeling….
I tow it to a local shop and we determine that the engine is completely fried and requires a top-end rebuild. Mechanic quotes around $6k.
We filled the expansion tank up with water and pressurize it, and water leaks fast out of the join on the expansion tank. Cant see any more leaks at this stageSo now I am stuffed, I need my car in Melbourne for work, I am suppose to be working on renovating a house, I have no money and everything has gone to sh1t…

Anyway, I am trying to find out if there is any chance I could put it back on the supplier of the expansion tank.

I don’t know heaps of these cars, however from speaking to people I believe the failure of the cooling system could be caused by the following:


A faulty expansion tank (which would be great for me as I could put responsibility back o nthe manufacturer)
Some other failure in the cooling system (Thermostat, fans, hoses)
Blocked radiator
Head gasket leaking pressure into the cooling system. (this could also explain the original crack in the old expansion tank??)I have spoken to my mechanic in Sydney and he says the only way I could put it back on the expansion tank was if I get a forensic automotive consultant to do an independent audit and try to determine the cause of the failure. I have not had this quoted yet but I imagine this would be costly…

I paid $8.5k for the car 6months ago, which was a great deal (though a friend). It is fully decked out with ARB Bull bars, tow bars, cargo cage, grind plate underneath, snorkel… and was going to be my introduction into 4wd’ing. It had done 180,000km and I had the timing belt change as soon as I purchased it.


One option is to replace the engine. I have sourced a new engine and this is what the guy told me:
$3,600 exchange (I take his, he takes mine)
136,00km on the engine, apparently it was in an accident
They dismantle, check oil pressure, compression issues then install new cylinder head gasket and timing belt using genuine parts (all this included in total cost)
They leave the turbo charger, injectors, injector pump, intake & exhaust manifold…etc. He recons a lot of people transfer their problems between engines if they don’t do this.
In addition to this he has recommended that I get the cooling system thoroughly checked and the radiator re cored.
Estimate $1200-1500 to installI really don’t know what to do, I guess I have 3 options…
Take $2.5k I was offered for the car in the stat it is in and buy a bike
Have the top end rebuilt for $6k, will my problems go away though???
Purchase a new engine and have it installed for around $5k, is this the fresh start I am looking for??Any help you guys can give would be great. I only had this car for 6 months but I absolutely love it, and I feel like I have just lost a family member. It is killing me!

Is anyone other than myself responsible for this? I doubt it...

Ed.

[loanrangie]

By top end do you mean head etc as a new bare head is approx. $1500 or less so 6k is way over the top, you could fully reco the whole motor for that. I dont think you can blame the supplier of the tank as the motor would have to build up loads of pressure to split the tank and there are so many variables they could use for other causes. If it only leaks out the tank then you may only need a headgasket replaced, either way the only way to determine cause and course of repair is a teardown - goodluck. by the way wa the tank black or white ? black tanks were known to split.

[discomuzz]

I tow it to a local shop and we determine that the engine is completely fried and requires a top-end rebuild. Mechanic quotes around $6k.

If the motor is "completely fried" (ie. seized in my book), what good is a new top end!

Does it turn over?

Where did the mechanic 'pull' $6k from?

Who offered you the $2.5k?

Need to settle down a bit and think this through I think!

I do, however, feel your pain though.

[abaddonxi]

I get my car serviced by a trusted and reputable mechanic (the same guy who sold me the truck), I drop a bit of cash on a full service and several other items, including a replacement of the expansion tank (genuine part) as it had a slight crack.

If your previous expansion tank had a crack in it already did your mechanic check if there was head gasket damage? I'd think that since 300tdi's suffer head damage so easily that it would be the first thing your mechanic would check.


I have spoken to my mechanic in Sydney and he says the only way I could put it back on the expansion tank was if I get a forensic automotive consultant to do an independent audit and try to determine the cause of the failure. I have not had this quoted yet but I imagine this would be costly…
Do this. It'll cost some money, but you'll have an independent judgement on what went wrong. It'll either settle your mind or give you someone to point the finger at.

Welcome to the 300 club.

Cheers
Simon

[discomuzz]

Do this. It'll cost some money, but you'll have an independent judgement on what went wrong. It'll either settle your mind or give you someone to point the finger at.

And after all that money if it turns out NOT to be the expansion tank he is in deeper doodoo!

[mcrover]

Calm down and take it to a Landrover repairer, not a dealer.

All is not bad.....yet..:cool:

There are a few good ones up in NSW, check recomended repairers for more info.

$6k will buy you a rebuilt engine so unless your bolting on a new core, new turbo and new valves then $6k is a bit over the top in my books so that gives me the clew that you need to take it somewhere more in the know or less likely to try to relieve you of more money than you need to.

I I were to do anything it would be the second hand engine if I was somewhere too far from home as it will be the fastest way top get you back on the road but then again, a good LR repairer will have a better solution that will suit you.

[mike 90 RR]

I really don’t know what to do, I guess I have 3 options…

1. Take $2.5k I was offered for the car in the stat it is in and buy a bike
2. Have the top end rebuilt for $6k, will my problems go away though???
3. Purchase a new engine and have it installed for around $5k, is this the fresh start I am looking for??

None of those options :(


I would do as McRover suggests


Calm down and take it to a Landrover repairer, not a dealer.

All is not bad.....yet..:cool:
There are a few good ones up in NSW, check recommended repairers for more info.



And get a Tow truck to get it back to Sydney ($300??) and do the ring around ...

Just reread it .... you want it in Melbourne

[rangieman]

And fit a low coolant alarm cheap compared to the 6k rebuild:cool:

[mcrover]

And fit a low coolant alarm cheap compared to the 6k rebuild:cool:

x2

I gotta buy one of them things.......:p

I thought they were a bit of a not so nessessery item but there are more and more of these sort of things happeneing lately so I may have to invest me thinks.:D

[mike 90 RR]

A Link to the NSW repairers

New South Wales & ACT - Australian Land Rover Owners (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/new-south-wales-act/)

and the other state

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/victoria/

:angel:

[waynep]

I agree you need to get an aftermarket LR specialist to look at it. With what you know already you could probably talk to a few on the phone. There's quite a few mechs. the guys on here know and trust ( mainly out East or North of Melbourne ).

But if you say you have no money that's not going to help. No matter what you do it's gonna cost, unfortunately. Your chances of claiming on the expansion tank maker are pretty slim I reckon.

And yes if you do manage to get it back on the road - buy and fit a low coolant alarm. For $100 or so cheap insurance.

[edvanr]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your quick replies.


The motor is "completely fried", when i try to turn it over it just spits smoke out of the engine.


I have spoken to an automotive consultant and he was saying that the pressure cap on the expansion tank should have released the pressure and prevented the expansion tank from cracking. Basically he says the pressure cap should release the pressure before the expansion tank fails. So based on this he said if the expansion tank was recently replaced and the pressure cap was also replaced (or tested to make sure the old one was fine) then the expansion tank has failed and the supplier is liable… Even if something else in the cooling system failed and caused the engine to heat up, the pressure should not have caused the expansion tank to crack as the pressure cap should have been relieving the pressure… any comments??


He also suggested that rather then spending a fortune on a consultant to go and assess the car, it would be better to just post up the expansion tank / pressure cap and take that straight to the supplier… What do you think of this?


I am not sure if my mechanic checked for head damage when he did the original service, what is the technique for usually diagnosing this? Would it be expected that he performed this test?


Thanks,
Ed.

[mcrover]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your quick replies.


The motor is "completely fried", when i try to turn it over it just spits smoke out of the engine.
If the engine is turning over then it is not completely fried, it could be just that there is an oil gallery pumping oil into the cylinder causing it not to fire but if there is smoke then theres compression and where there is compression there is hope :D


I have spoken to an automotive consultant and he was saying that the pressure cap on the expansion tank should have released the pressure and prevented the expansion tank from cracking. Basically he says the pressure cap should release the pressure before the expansion tank fails.This is true though if there is a massive amount of pressure pumped into the cooling system that is too much for the cap to flow then it has to give somewhere So based on this he said if the expansion tank was recently replaced and the pressure cap was also replaced (or tested to make sure the old one was fine) then the expansion tank has failed and the supplier is liable…Yes test the cap that was fitted at the time of the failure, it should break off at around 15Psi Even if something else in the cooling system failed and caused the engine to heat up, the pressure should not have caused the expansion tank to crack as the pressure cap should have been relieving the pressure… any comments??


He also suggested that rather then spending a fortune on a consultant to go and assess the car, it would be better to just post up the expansion tank / pressure cap and take that straight to the supplier… What do you think of this?All well and good but it will still cost you no matter what you do, that I say is up to you and how much your willing to pay before you just go and fix it

The black tanks, well a lot of them were prone to cracking, weather this was a manufacturing fault with the tank or the cap I dont know but mine is still fine as is the same with a few others but then there have been a lot of failures.
If it was a white tank then this would be about the third I think that I have heard of in the time ive been on this forum and most I think may have been caused by a faulty cap.

I am not sure if my mechanic checked for head damage when he did the original service, what is the technique for usually diagnosing this? Would it be expected that he performed this test?


Thanks,
Ed.

About all you can do to check for head damage without taking the head off is to pressure test it.

Pump it up to 30 to 50Psi and see if something blows, if it does then something was wrong and if it doesnt you just hope you didnt dislodge anything when you did the pressure test.

I try to steer clear of going above 20 to 30Psi when testing radiators and I wont test the rest of the cooling system under normal checks, I will only pump it up if there is already a leak and im trying to trace it.

There are normally tell tale sugns of head damage e.g. Milky oil, milky coolant, lots of blow by, running rough or lots of steam from the exaust but these all point to head gasket or in some cases cracked head.

I wouldnt jump to blaming the mechanic straight up, do a bit more homework and test the cap etc and go to him with proof to take to his supplier or else you will most likly just be told to sod off

[Blknight.aus]

I'll back Mcrover on this one first things first get a pressure test and a leakdown check done on the engine.

Im Tipping you'll be up for a new headgasket as a minimum but more than likely a head as well.

6k would be about right for the price of a full rip down of the old head replace with a new head with all new valves, all new injectors a rework of the entire cooling system plus new timing belt, manifold match up and a turbo work over with a retest and tune of the pump Providing the mechanic did ALL of that without you lifting a finger to help.

if he just whacks on a new preassembled reco head $2k max with maybe $500 thrown on it to do the cooling system while hes at it.

on the coolant system over pressure thing yes the cap should have prevented the tank from over pressurising BUT if youve had a total failure of the gasket or head theres no way it will deal with the pressure or volume of gas the engine can put into the system. as a result the tanks can split. Its a chicken and the egg game of did the engine take out the tank or did the tank take out the engine and if you try to play it you will generally loose unless you have plenty of evidence that the thing was busted to start with OR the mechanic was sloppy in the installation of it.

best of luck either way.

[edvanr]

Hi Guys,
I thought i would give you all an update on my situation....

I have decided to completely swap engines. It got so hot i have a really bad feeling that after spending a fortune rebuilding that I would have endless problems in the future. Maybe thats not correct, but this is the path i have chosen...

My mechanic in Sydney has been very helpful. He has spoken to his supplier and the supplier has agreed to supply me any parts I need for the engine swap at cost price.

I have also decided to get the work done in Melbourne, mainly so that if anything goes wrong I don’t have to take it all the way back to Albury for the guy to look at it... I found someone locally who will pick it up for me and drop it at the mechanic in Melbourne for $400 which i think is pretty dam good.

I have sourced an engine from Triumph in SA for $3,600 with a new head and timing belt 136,000km. Any suggestions on checks I should do on the engine number to confirm KM?

I am going to get Glen from Rover Land Service Center (Ferntree Gully) to do the work, he had good reviews from this site, seems to know his stuff, and isn't going to overcharge. He has quoted 14 hours work which works out at around $1,200, and I will supply all the parts.

As i mentioned I will be supplying all the parts as I can get them at cost price. I want to do as much as possible on the car while the engine is out to ensure we have a long and happy future together, this is what I am getting done, any comments?
- new clutch kit
- fly wheel dowls
- remove radiator and clean (or replace if needed)
- new hoses (heater, bypass, top & bottom radiator)
- new expansion tank
- thorough inspection of cooling system

Anything I am missing?

cheers,
Ed.

[87County]

Hi Guys,
I thought i would give you all an update on my situation....

........................
I have sourced an engine from Triumph in SA for $3,600 with a new head and timing belt 136,000km. Any suggestions on checks I should do on the engine number to confirm KM?
......................
cheers,
Ed.

you could enquire if that vendor will give any warranty (eg. 6mth exchange) on the 2nd engine...

[87County]

you could advertise your "fried" engine on this site.... (just a thought)

[edvanr]

The vendor has offered 3 month warranty. So i guess i will take it for a few big trips as soon as possible...

[nzoliver]

:o
I have had to do a gasket on my Tdi. No biggie. I personally would have gone with a head gasket and had the head checked. Replace it only if neccessary. A good machine up would have porbably sorted it.

I would definately get the rad flushed before ya use it with the new engine. Make sure the 'P' gasket is done as well as the belt.

Tdi engines are prety hardy things really.

[eddie_tdi]

just a quick question.. which one is the "P" gasket? and why do i keep on hearing about that?

[nzoliver]

Hi,
It really onnly applies to Tdis. It is the gasket between the water pump and the head. Factory it was a papery stuff and prone to leaking and we all know how bad that is for a Tdi. The replacement is a sort of crushable aluminium thing. Why 'P'? 'Cos that is the shape of it!:D

[eddie_tdi]

oh ok sweet, well i have a tdi now, thats why i was asking, i should really get my user name changed lol

[mike 90 RR]

oh ok sweet, well i have a tdi now, thats why i was asking, i should really get my user name changed lol

eddie_TDiV8i ;) :angel: