Spring Over Lift

[Tonestar]

G'Day,............

I want to do a "Spring Over Lift",put the Diff's under the springs like they do on Hi-lux's.Has anyone done it and how hard was it to do,what am I looking at.????????
Just a general opinion please.

Thanx Tonestar.

[Rangier Rover]

G'Day,............

I want to do a "Spring Over Lift",put the Diff's under the springs like they do on Hi-lux's.Has anyone done it and how hard was it to do,what am I looking at.????????
Just a general opinion please.

Thanx Tonestar.

Yes..... :eek: Not realy worth it in my opinion. Brake pipes,Drive shafts, Steering geometry, Need coiler axles to widen its track. Mine drove like an upright piano on roller skates. But has been done with great success.

Cheers Tony

[Slunnie]

I've done it and describing difficulty is a relative thing.

I really wouldn't use series axles to do a SOA (Spring Over Axle) conversion. I think that you'll find it too narrow. Even standard I think that they're too narrow.

Anyway, I did mine with Toyota Hilux axles. This is on 31's (measuring 30")
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/591.jpg

This pic is on 38's (measuring 36")
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/592.jpg


The front axle just bolts in with some flexing of the springs.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/735.jpg

The steering will connect up to the relay using a LR steering link. At the axle (PS) I made up whats called a X-over steering link and reamed to accept a LR ball joint instead of a Toyota one. If you need one of these I'm happy to swap you for a standard one as I'm no longer running a SOA setup. The keeps the steering link relative flat to prevent bumpsteer (ie so it drives straight over the bumps) It's different to the Toyota ones as the top arm is relatatively flat so that it clears the chassis.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/736.jpg

The rear

Weld in perches and put the axle in. You would run the lower plates on the opposite side to mount the shocks properly. Like the front you will also have to drill the plates to accept thicker U-bolts.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/737.jpg

I never completed it but here are the problems:
Front tail shaft clearing the Xmember - scallop the Xmember
SWB angle on rear tailshaft - high flex unis, but will vibrate
Duel front brake hoses - Run Hilux brake MC onto Series 3 pedal
Centred rear diff - use a Bundera rear diff which has an offset centre.

There are of course other things which you'll need to do to make it work such as brake lines, new shafts, revised upper shock mounts, shocks etc.

In the end, I coiled it and brought it out to 100" which I think will be a minimum length - so if its a shorty I wouldn't bother. I scrapped it in the end due to a chassis problem (rust)

On 37's and 100" with coiled rear.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/593.jpg

The SOA does give more scope for suspension articulation though.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/111.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/110.jpg

[rangieman]

If you are planing this horrible excersise id do as simon has done and remove some spring packs so it allows the axle to articulate in both directions;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/737.jpg

[Slunnie]

If you are planing this horrible excersise id do as simon has done and remove some spring packs so it allows the axle to articulate in both directions;)

You'll also then need to add an anti wrap bar of some descript to prevent the axle from twisting.


In all honesty, when I started the construction of Ute2 which I'm building now it was very much a hindsight vehicle being built with what I learnt and what I knew it needed to do to perform in the bush. The new setup for suspension is a slight lift 2-3", front and rear axles move rearward by about 40-45mm (tyres to clear headlights) with LandCruiser springs to fit 37's, Landcruiser axles for width and strength and make the body work suit. I also think the SOA conversion will be not very nice to drive, not only due to body sway, but also the driveline vibrations which you'll get. It'll look really cool though. SUA is just a lot more stable and easier to do generally. The ride height difference is that SOA will give about 6" lift and the SUA will up to about 2-3" lift. The SOA will give more articulation but I think you can get some similar results for the same level of fabrication with SUA with the added advantage of stability.

[Tonestar]

I've done it and describing difficulty is a relative thing.

I really wouldn't use series axles to do a SOA (Spring Over Axle) conversion. I think that you'll find it too narrow. Even standard I think that they're too narrow.

Anyway, I did mine with Toyota Hilux axles. This is on 31's (measuring 30")
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/591.jpg

This pic is on 38's (measuring 36")
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/592.jpg


The front axle just bolts in with some flexing of the springs.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/735.jpg

The steering will connect up to the relay using a LR steering link. At the axle (PS) I made up whats called a X-over steering link and reamed to accept a LR ball joint instead of a Toyota one. If you need one of these I'm happy to swap you for a standard one as I'm no longer running a SOA setup. The keeps the steering link relative flat to prevent bumpsteer (ie so it drives straight over the bumps) It's different to the Toyota ones as the top arm is relatatively flat so that it clears the chassis.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/736.jpg

The rear

Weld in perches and put the axle in. You would run the lower plates on the opposite side to mount the shocks properly. Like the front you will also have to drill the plates to accept thicker U-bolts.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/737.jpg

I never completed it but here are the problems:
Front tail shaft clearing the Xmember - scallop the Xmember
SWB angle on rear tailshaft - high flex unis, but will vibrate
Duel front brake hoses - Run Hilux brake MC onto Series 3 pedal
Centred rear diff - use a Bundera rear diff which has an offset centre.

There are of course other things which you'll need to do to make it work such as brake lines, new shafts, revised upper shock mounts, shocks etc.

In the end, I coiled it and brought it out to 100" which I think will be a minimum length - so if its a shorty I wouldn't bother. I scrapped it in the end due to a chassis problem (rust)

On 37's and 100" with coiled rear.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/593.jpg

The SOA does give more scope for suspension articulation though.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/111.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/110.jpg
Question.......How hard was it to convert to Coil Springs and what would I be looking at to do that....?????
I like that idea, my plan originally was to put IIA Body on a Rangy coil sprung chassis and use Rangie V8 and Drive Train.

Tonestar.

[Blknight.aus]

the easy way is to find a rolled coiler that has straight axles...

cut out the suspension mounts dummy the axles into position, mount the linkages mount the brackets then weld up the mounts to suit.

then cut your propshafts to length (or stretch them) and sort out the brakes.

[Slunnie]

Question.......How hard was it to convert to Coil Springs and what would I be looking at to do that....?????
I like that idea, my plan originally was to put IIA Body on a Rangy coil sprung chassis and use Rangie V8 and Drive Train.

Tonestar.
It can be as easy or difficult as you want really.

For the rear I bought lower link mounts and welded them onto the axle. Used Nissan Patrol rings and bushes for the lower links and set these into the original leaf spring mounts. For the A-Frame I made a Xmember and bolted this in using a factory A-frame, and them fabricated a Ball joint mount perch onto the top of the axle and used a ball joint mount from a Salisbury onto the perch. The lower spring perches are just D1 units sitting on top of little RHS risers which are welded to the axle. The uppers in that pic is just RHS welded to the chassis with another axle D1 spring perched welded to it, but dont do that! I also have spring perches which were cut off a bent D2 chassis. Shocks were mounted using an aftermarket axle shock mount. The chassis was scrapped after this due to rust. If you want to simplify it and are not chasing loads of articulation, then I would also recommend running D2 front radius arms from the bottom of the chassis to the axle and a panhard rod setup. Relatively easy and simple brackets to make or cheap to buy.

I can't comment too much on putting the series body onto a RRC chassis, but there are quite a few people that also recommend this. Its not how I'd do it, but each to their own.

Lower link mounts:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/731.jpg

Lower Links from axle to chassis fixed spring mounts:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/04/1066.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/732.jpg

RHS risers to plate and then Salisbury A-frame mount. Note also lower links to fixed leaf mounts.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/733.jpg

I haven't got a pic of the crossmember. Also, don't do the spring perches as above!

[Tonestar]

You have to forgive me...I'm new to Landy's.........so can you tell me what D1 - D2 means please.And also its only the Rear End you made Coil,
how does the Front End behave with coil Rear End when articulating..???
and how did you get the Front up so high to match the height of the Coils in the Rear when the Front is still Leafs....???

Much Appreciated
Tonestar.

[Slunnie]

You have to forgive me...I'm new to Landy's.........so can you tell me what D1 - D2 means please.And also its only the Rear End you made Coil,
how does the Front End behave with coil Rear End when articulating..???
and how did you get the Front up so high to match the height of the Coils in the Rear when the Front is still Leafs....???

Much Appreciated
Tonestar.
G'day Tonestar,

Sorry about that. D1 and D2 just means Discovery series 1 or Discovery series 2. It was only the rear that was coiled too. I'm just looking spring the front of Ute2 now and if it goes ahead I will just do the same setup as the front of a Discovery 2. To bring the front ride height up to match the rear, it was done purely through the SOA conversion as detailed above which brings the ride height up by about 6", and then with the coilds, I had a heap of them to select from, and just chose the softest ones. I never drove it, but in terms of matching the articulation it looked like it was ok. If I allowed the rear to dislocate the spring (ie the spring comes loose) then I could only lift the rear by about 10" if I remember correctly and the whole rear end would just lift up with the vehicle remaining flat. When I strapped the axle to simulate the limiting action of the shock then it started to articulate fairly well, and the also allowed the rear suspension to force the front suspension to work. Here are the pics:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/111.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/110.jpg



Ahhh ok sorry. I've created some confusion

The Original vehicle was this IIa 88":
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/695.jpg

Which was SOA converted onto Hilux axles which was this:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/696.jpg

Which was then converted into a cab only and coiled at the rear with a 100" wheelbase which looked like this:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/697.jpg

After this the above vehicle was cutup and scrapped due to rust in the chassis.


Ute2 was a completely different vehicle and is the current truck

This one started as a mustard SeriesII ute at 109"
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/698.jpg

It remained SUA and at 109" but with Toy axles, brakes, steering etc. This is how it looked about 1 year ago. I'll get some more pics of it over the next couple of weeks while I'm working on it.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/328.jpg

Ute2 is how I would do it all to be honest (well, that what I'm currently doing). There is still a lot more to happen but I think it will be a much better setup.

You can see the build thread at:
www.slunnie.com :: View topic - Ute2 Reincarnation (http://www.slunnie.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php't=32)

and the build pictures are all at:
www.slunnie.com - Ute2 Reincarnation (http://www.slunnie.com/coppermine/thumbnails.php?album=128)

I'm not sure who's been watching it, but the thread has had just under 7400 views, so there seems to be some interest.

[Tonestar]

G'Day Slunnie.........

Thanx for that ......that has cleared up my confusion and I love the photos. I have 109" too, Cab/Chassis and what I'm hoping to do is chop 350mm off the back of the Chassis back to the spring hangers and for the Cab,I'm going to Extra Cab it...extending it back the same distance back as from the rear door edge to the end panel where it would meet the back tray.I'm going to put a chopped down 88" wagon roof on it instead of the original dome type roof it already has and vent it.
Eventually drop the 253 V8 in it and run it on Gas, also fit a full roll cage as well,put a high,very short tray on the back.Thats just the Basic Plan I have to get started....who knows what it will evolve into..........I want to enter it in the Nissan Trials next November,so it has to be fairly modified BUT still a "LANDY". I'm just in the process of doing my homework at the moment thats why I'm asking questions.
I will post pictures as I go so you can see what I'm up to................

Tonestar.

[Slunnie]

Ahhh Tonestar! Mate, thats a whole new ballgame if you're looking to comp and I don't think that this setup will give you enough for that type of thing. To get more travel and to reposition the axles to suit I'm running LC45 front springs and LC60 rears. The will still swing from the original spring mounts with the exception of the front shackles which need to be repositioned. If you're looking to comp, before shortening the chassis (I've been looking at the same mod) I would look very carefully at some of the Hiux spring modifications where they're getting huge amounts of flex. This will require new leaf spring mounts front and rear and they're much longer and narrower leafs which will give a lot more flex. Most of the hard work has been done already using these. Mainly Hilux rears up front and IFS Hilux rears at the back and then the packs are stripped down and set to flex setup as sprung over. Thats where I would be heading in this case. The Yanks are also onto some really high flex mods using similar principles with US based parts.

I would highly recommend:
www.outerlimits4x4.com (http://www.outerlimits4x4.com)
www.pirate4x4.com (http://www.pirate4x4.com)

Outerlimits is an Aussie hard core site and there are some excellent minds on there. Pirate4x4 is US based and probably the absolute benchmark for hard core tech. They can supply you with tech and experience which is well beyond that which I can.

[Tonestar]

Thanx Slunnie.........

Unfortunately I have a Budget to stick too,married with children........if you know what I mean, so I can't do hard core comp like I'd like to.I'm going to enter the standard class,which is limited to big lift,big wheels with no Diff Lockers,or it might have to be Modified when the V8 goes in.
And I'll give those sites a look...................

Tonestar.

[jakeslouw]

<BUMP>

I'm investigating putting a set of coil axles under my S2A.

The primary reason is here:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=2001584#post2001584

Would love some tips and tricks. I'll be using a set of Disco1 axles with matching radius, trailing, and A-arms. I'll use the disco coils at this stage. need advice on coil mounts on the S2A chassis and then any brake system issues. Will need some brake proportioning valve I assume.

[Slunnie]

<BUMP>

I'm investigating putting a set of coil axles under my S2A.

The primary reason is here:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=2001584#post2001584

Would love some tips and tricks. I'll be using a set of Disco1 axles with matching radius, trailing, and A-arms. I'll use the disco coils at this stage. need advice on coil mounts on the S2A chassis and then any brake system issues. Will need some brake proportioning valve I assume.
I'd use the spring perches from a Discovery, but make they they come down from the chassis top plate all the way down to the bottom plate, or extend them if necessary. This is so the chassis side walls don't crack. You will also need to swap the diffs over also, so pick a donor with 10 spline axles.

For brakes I would look to use a pedal from a series3 that had a booster and try to graft the Discovery booster and master cylinder onto it. I'm not sure of plumbing differences.

I'm not sure of your laws, but it may be worth investigating building up a Defender chassis and then swapping the engine/gearbox and body over.

[jakeslouw]

I'd use the spring perches from a Discovery, but make they they come down from the chassis top plate all the way down to the bottom plate, or extend them if necessary. This is so the chassis side walls don't crack. You will also need to swap the diffs over also, so pick a donor with 10 spline axles.

For brakes I would look to use a pedal from a series3 that had a booster and try to graft the Discovery booster and master cylinder onto it. I'm not sure of plumbing differences.

I'm not sure of your laws, but it may be worth investigating building up a Defender chassis and then swapping the engine/gearbox and body over.

Our laws? We need a valid chassis/VIN number , a valid engine number, receipts and scrapping papers for the donor vehicles and the vehicle must pass roadworthy as a Code 3 : "built up vehicle" and Bob's your Auntie.

I can put a VW Beetle body on a Rangie chassis if I want.

I have access now to a full RRC rolling chassis. I don't want to build a 100 inch hybrid, so we'll probably just steal the relevant bits like shock towers and coil mounts and radius and trailing arm brackets etc.

[UncleHo]

I would be more inclined to mount the 2a body on a RRC or D1 chassis (same) then it would only be a matter of fabricating the body mounts,then you can use what ever engine you wish 300TDI or V8 either carburatered or injected,manual or auto, fit it with cranked radius rods front and rear and a 2inch spring lift and you would have a fairly competent vehicle

cheers

[jakeslouw]

I would be more inclined to mount the 2a body on a RRC or D1 chassis (same) then it would only be a matter of fabricating the body mounts,then you can use what ever engine you wish 300TDI or V8 either carburatered or injected,manual or auto, fit it with cranked radius rods front and rear and a 2inch spring lift and you would have a fairly competent vehicle

cheers

Yeah well I'm not revisiting A 4x4 Is Born and cut bodies to fit 100 inch chassis.

I have the 2A and I have 2 choices: upgrade or sell.

It seems the latter would do the trick.

[UncleHo]

In that case I would be putting Series 2a or 3 wide (3") front drums on and use the Series 3 booster unit,the later 110 pedal is longer and look and feels "odd" you may need to put a limiting valve into the rear system (at diff joint) so that you do not get over braking at the rear,should be able to get limiting valve from dead British Leyland vehicle ;) you had Marina's over there from memory.

or, you could fit front 3" drums and backing plate assembleys to the rear.

[Series3 GT]

Could do what I've done, I put coils and leaves together in my IIA so I get the extra ride height and no need for trailing arms or any of that. What you could do is lighten the leaf packs and get heavier coils so it's riding on the coils and the leaves are just there to hold it in place.