how do you rate 6 cyl series rover engine

[Olive Drab]

While reading different threads about engines it appears the 2.25l engine rates a lot higher than a holden engine in series landies.
I've had the 2.25 petrol and a holden 202, liked the 4 cyl, the 202 just doesn't feel right and is heavy on the juice. Would the 6cyl rover be a better option than the 202?

[JDNSW]

The six cylinder engine is, in my view, quite a good car engine, smooth, quiet, well mannered. However, with compression reduced for multifuel use as in the Landrover, it becomes rather thirsty, and unlike the four, does not stand up very well to the abuse it gets in this application.

Apart from the fuel consumption problem (although this is probably no worse than the Holden engine) it works quite well in the Landrover (much better than the Holden), provided it is given appropriate care (including things like regular tappet clearance checks) and is driven sympathetically. But for example, if overheated, much more damage is likely than would be the case with the four or even the Holden. And parts, while available, are more difficult to find than for either of these.

John

[Bigbjorn]

The six cylinder engine was introduced into the Land Rover range because of the marketing peoples need to compete with you-know-who. No other reason. It is a typical British engine of the 30's-40's. What I call the Early English Vertical School of Engine Design. Bulky, heavy, un-necessarily over-complicated, and not very good at the job. Like all too many British and Euro origin items, it needs regular maintenance and is not amenable to the negligible maintenance needs Australian and US operators are accustomed to with the American origin designs.

Similar marketing needs resulted in the Falcon Six in the Cortina and the Chrysler Hemi Six in the Centura, and the OHC BMC six in the Marina. These three totally changed the concept of understeer. Anything that came before them had only mild understeer in comparison. The Marina 6 in my opinion was bloody dangerous.

A slightly different marketing need resulted in the Opel and Sunbird engines in Torana and Commodore where GM-H marketeers needed a "four cylinder engine" to compete even though the six was a better performer and more economical. The buyers were conditioned to believe that a four was more economical so a four had to be provided.

[UncleHo]

G'day Olive Drab :)


I would have to agree with both JDNSW and Brian Hjelm on that question, the Rover 6 was a nice engine in the Rover saloons, but was a still-born in the Landrover(12 Mpg on a good day).
If you vehicle was a 4 cyl originally I would suggest you return it to the 2.25 litre motor if not I would suggest you modify the mounts and swap the bellhousing (if it needs changing) 6cylinder B/housing has top bolts at 11am & 1pm AND 4cyl B/housing has top bolt at 12.00 O'clock that is also the easiest way to tell if the vehicle was originally a 4 or a 6 ;) this will determine if the engine mounts need modifying.


cheers

[PAT303]

I have a rover six in my 2a and it is one of the smoothest engines i've driven.I really like it but the problem is in an LR they rev their head off which causes all the problems.In a saloon they go for ever but being a long stroke engine when they are pushed hard at highway speed they don't like it.I had no problems at all with mine after I geared it up(RR diffs) which brought the revs down and stayed under 100ks/hr.LR should have fitted the high ratio transfer in all series models,that is the biggest downer on the series models in my opinion. Pat

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I am going to diverge at this point. It depends upon what you are doing with the car. The 4 cyl was a reliable engine that can be developed a little with performance tuning etc. If your Land Rover was a four cylinder chassis then fitting the Rover 6 is a tight squeeze and as you know the 6 cyl chassis moved the gearbox back.

If you want reasonable road speeds with a full load and good fuel economy the best conversion was the Holden 186A or 186S from a manual car. The 202 is thirsty as stated and suffers from overheating at times.

The Holden conversions get a bad rap from rivet counters and anoraks, but done correctly they out perform both of the Land Rover motors in carrying capacity, road speed, reliability and fuel economy. You can still get holden 6 cyl parts everywhere. Not something you can say for the Rover 6.

I currently own 5 Rover 6 cyl engines and 1 Holden engine and guess which ones on the road!

Diana

[Rangier Rover]

Use the better tuned 3ltr out of an early P6 car. Pull a stump out a idle and free running.
Tony

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Use the better tuned 3ltr out of an early P6 car. Pull a stump out a idle and free running.
Tony
Tony

I think you mean the P5 Rover car, (image below) the one you want is the 1962 P5 3 litre MkII with the Westlake head. The automatics have an 8 bolt flywheel/crank interface however you can use the flywheel off a 4 cyl Land Rover and the 9.5" clutch plate, with a Land Rover 6 cyl flywheel housing and gearbox bellhousing.

Addit: If contemplating the conversion to a Rover 3 litre. Also consider using the bonneted control 6 cyl Land Rover water pump adaption. The 3 litre and F/C pump use a small impeller where the LR one uses a larger diameter impeller with a lot more fins. The difference is an adapter plate fixed between the block and the LR water pump and worth the money in this hot climate.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/306.jpg

The P6 (below) was the really good Rover car with the de dion sliding rear end and the 2 litre or the 3.5litre V8.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/307.jpg

Diana

[Rangier Rover]

Yep thats the one. We had a pommy mechanic here in the late 80s and he used to swear by them, he did metion the flywheel and spigot bush had to be changed. When I was in the UK in 93 I came across a 107 S1 with this conversion and I was impressed with its perfomance. Always wanted to do one here but never got around to it.

Tony

[djam1]

I used the Rover six extensively in the 1980s and found the following.
They are a beautiful smooth motor not particularly powerful but very smooth.
They did have some bad habits though burning exhaust valves was one the other was blowing head gaskets.
Others have criticized their fuel consumption they are not as good as a 4 in either efficiency or reliability but we managed to average 15.5 MPG traveling around Australia in 1980 fully loaded with 4 people I didn't think it was too bad.
If you want to run one always keep an eye on the exhaust valve tappet clearance keep them loose and with todays modern fuels probably run an upper cylinder lubricant, they use to burn valves very regularly on Super so ULP probably isnt good.
I recall the Australian Army burning out a set of exhaust valves travelling from Katherine in the NT to Alice Springs a distance of about 1200 km.

These engines run really well even when half stuffed
This one is running on 2 cylinders YouTube - Six Pot Land Rover Engine Is Amazing (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7z77eJp9QUY&feature=related)

I think its sad to see them die out completely but the 4 cylinder is a fantastic engine capable of absorbing years of abuse and quite frankly a much better idea

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Santana Land Rover in Spain made a 6 cylinder version of the Land Rover 4 cylinder.

Now that would have been a good motor.

[djam1]

Diana
I have often dream t of those if they were as good as the 4 they would have been the Ducks Guts.
Not too many engines you could overheat until they seized go for a walk come back fill them up with water and drive them for years without issue.
There was a Bedford 330 Cu diesel that could handle it though lol

[hodgo]

Tony

I think you mean the P5 Rover car, (image below) the one you want is the 1962 P5 3 litre MkII with the Westlake head. The automatics have an 8 bolt flywheel/crank interface however you can use the flywheel off a 4 cyl Land Rover and the 9.5" clutch plate, with a Land Rover 6 cyl flywheel housing and gearbox bellhousing.

Addit: If contemplating the conversion to a Rover 3 litre. Also consider using the bonneted control 6 cyl Land Rover water pump adaption. The 3 litre and F/C pump use a small impeller where the LR one uses a larger diameter impeller with a lot more fins. The difference is an adapter plate fixed between the block and the LR water pump and worth the money in this hot climate.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/306.jpg

The P6 (below) was the really good Rover car with the de dion sliding rear end and the 2 litre or the 3.5litre V8.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/307.jpg

Diana

________________________

Looks the the P5 had a hand brake problem.

[87County]

While reading different threads about engines it appears the 2.25l engine rates a lot higher than a holden engine in series landies.
I've had the 2.25 petrol and a holden 202, liked the 4 cyl, the 202 just doesn't feel right and is heavy on the juice. Would the 6cyl rover be a better option than the 202?...


IMHE - yes - I've had a couple of ex-mil ser3s and they didn't give any trouble at all.... and flexible as bro, (felt like you could pull away in 4th from just about any slow speed)....

by the way - the Holden conversions had a reputation for destroying series gearboxes and there were problems with engine oil pickup in steep conditions, but never having had one maybe others can tell the stories

[scarry]

Just thought i would throw this in,in the days when the series 3 was new,my father had a few at work.They got a few six cylinder models,and they didnt like them.I think the main problem was fuel consumption,not much more power than the 4 cyl,and a few engine probs,i think burnt valves

It wasnt long after this.....you guessed it they went to Tojos:(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just thought i would throw this in,in the days when the series 3 was new,my father had a few at work.They got a few six cylinder models,and they didnt like them.I think the main problem was fuel consumption,not much more power than the 4 cyl,and a few engine probs,i think burnt valves

It wasnt long after this.....you guessed it they went to Tojos:(The Rover engines in the series vehicles were the main reason that Land Cruiser got the market share it does today.

I have said it before and I'll say it again - set up correctly the 186 Holden engine out performs the Rover engines. Even the Rover engines had to modify their sumps for use in the Land Rover and that is why in the LROCS in the 1960's and 1970's when these series cars were new or recently released from Government service we fitted up the Holden engines to work efficiently in the Land Rover. There were float level changes and particular Holden sumps like the HT Holden that had the bulge in the middle so maintained its oil pressure whether it was going up hill or down dale. There were particular inlet manifolds and particular cams and fuel ecconomy of over 20 MPG was common.

However if Land Rover had not been taken over by the British Leyland debacle and we had received the Stage One like we wanted in the 1970's and the County by the end of the decade. (All of which was possible.) Land Rover would not be in 4WD tail end charlie place it finds itself today.

And yes I have owned Land Rovers throughout the entire period from 1973 to the present day, so I am talking from a point of knowledge. And importantly the Land Rovers I have owned and driven as daily drivers through that period have included all the Land Rover petrol engines, excluding the 3.9 and the 2.5 litre, but none of the diesels. I have also owned daily driver Land Rovers with 161, 186, 202 and 253 Holden engines and 4.4 and 5 litre P76 V8's.

I still appreciate an original spec series Land Rover.

[justinc]

I have a rover six in my 2a and it is one of the smoothest engines i've driven.I really like it but the problem is in an LR they rev their head off which causes all the problems.In a saloon they go for ever but being a long stroke engine when they are pushed hard at highway speed they don't like it.I had no problems at all with mine after I geared it up(RR diffs) which brought the revs down and stayed under 100ks/hr.LR should have fitted the high ratio transfer in all series models,that is the biggest downer on the series models in my opinion. Pat

Hi Pat,
A bit OT,
Just fitted a 200Tdi into a 2a 109 with rangie 3.5:1 diffs. The owner is over the moon and I must admit it is the nicest 2a to drive on the road that I have driven...(If only the bodywork etc was as exciting as the running gear :(, but that is next on the list)

JC

[Grumbles]

That P5 Rover car is, amongst others of it's era like the Jags of the day, the epitome of British car body design in my opinion. It oozes style, opulence and substance combined with a certain aloofness.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Pat,
A bit OT,
Just fitted a 200Tdi into a 2a 109 with rangie 3.5:1 diffs. ...Justin

I think that (or the Tdi 300) is a very acceptable modern solution to the re-powering of Series Land Rovers. Unfortunately, while red Holden 6 cyl conversions are acceptable as "period engine replacements" for NSW Historic Conditional Registration, the 200Tdi is not.

Diana

[justinc]

Hi Diana,

It is a pity isn't it? After all, its essentially the same block as a series3 2.25 petrol/ diesel engine, :)

It SHOULD be a more widely practiced conversion. If I had an 88" thats what would be immediately fitted:D, and some disc brakes to make it stop:o

JC

[Blknight.aus]

for use in the landrover I rate the rover 6 somewhere between "boat anchor" and "AP target"

but Id still rather have that than any of the holden donks in a rover.

[PAT303]

Hi Pat,
A bit OT,
Just fitted a 200Tdi into a 2a 109 with rangie 3.5:1 diffs. The owner is over the moon and I must admit it is the nicest 2a to drive on the road that I have driven...(If only the bodywork etc was as exciting as the running gear :(, but that is next on the list)

JC

JC i've had two series models with 3.54 diffs and they totally transform the on road performance and short of rock hopping handle off-road work just as well.I also have had two O/Drives and they were ok as long as you could handle the screach. Pat

[PAT303]

for use in the landrover I rate the rover 6 somewhere between "boat anchor" and "AP target"

but Id still rather have that than any of the holden donks in a rover.

They are a good engine but you have to remember they have a very long stroke so high revs are a killer,that is why they go for years in saloons and not so long in LR's. Pat

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Diana,

It is a pity isn't it? After all, its essentially the same block as a series3 2.25 petrol/ diesel engine, :)

It SHOULD be a more widely practised conversion. If I had an 88" thats what would be immediately fitted:D, and some disc brakes to make it stop:o

JCThere is exactly that conversion in an 88 in the LROC-S, imported from Dublin when the owner emigrated (damn boat people mucking up good Landies :D)

There is no reason that you couldn't turbo the 5 bearing crank 2.3 litre (as they called it then) to make it a sort of 200TDi and fit the Ashcroft 5 speed adapter to the series gearbox. That conversion could be acceptable as it was possible in 1978.

Diana

[Blknight.aus]

you could turbo the 2.25 diesel but urm only if you want to see if you can make the combustion chamber be at one with the piston crown.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

you could turbo the 2.25 diesel but urm only if you want to see if you can make the combustion chamber be at one with the piston crown.
Yeah :BigThumb: another one of those toxic smelly old diesels off the road! :D :D :D

[Fourgearsticks]

Similar marketing needs resulted in the Falcon Six in the Cortina and the Chrysler Hemi Six in the Centura, and the OHC BMC six in the Marina. These three totally changed the concept of understeer. Anything that came before them had only mild understeer in comparison. The Marina 6 in my opinion was bloody dangerous.

They put a 265 in the Marina as well, great idea eh??????

[Blknight.aus]

Yeah :BigThumb: another one of those toxic smelly old diesels off the road! :D :D :D



toxic.?.

ok heavy concentrations of the emissions of a diesel might be a contributor to lung cancer (but if your a smoker your going to get that anyway) tell you what....

I'll lock you in a small poorly ventilated room with the landrover of your choice without hooking the exhaust up to external porting.

what are you going to choose? something diesel or something petrol?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

toxic.?.

ok heavy concentrations of the emissions of a diesel might be a contributor to lung cancer (but if your a smoker your going to get that anyway) tell you what....

I'll lock you in a small poorly ventilated room with the landrover of your choice without hooking the exhaust up to external porting.

what are you going to choose? something diesel or something petrol?

LPG :D :D

[Bigbjorn]

They put a 265 in the Marina as well, great idea eh??????

No, they put the BMC six cylinder used in the Tasman, Kimberley, and P76 into the Marina. A bulky heavy engine in relationship to its displacement. I have replaced two of these in P76's with Chrysler Hemi Sixes. Fits neatly in the same hole as the BMC engine. You need to fabricate new engine mounts and use a bell housing and converter from a Valiant, otherwise a fairly simple swap. Made a hell of a difference to performance.

[scarry]

Didnt They use the 6 cyl rover engine in some of the rover cars?i am sure it was in the rover 75,the old man had one for a few years.Or it could have been a 70,cant remember.It also had this mechanism that you turned under the dash,and when you took your foot off the accelerator it would freewheel,or something like that.

I was only an ankle biter in those days,so memory isnt that good:angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Didnt They use the 6 cyl rover engine in some of the rover cars?... <snip>yes basically the whole of the P4 model range apart from the 60? and 80 (the 80 BTW had the Land Rover 2.25 engine.)

Although the Land Rover version is actually based on a downsized 3 litre P5 Rover car engine. If you look at the first of the Land Rover 6 cyl (SIIA export forward controls in 1963) they even had the same water pump as the 3 litre.

[scarry]

yes basically the whole of the P4 model range apart from the 60? and 80 (the 80 BTW had the Land Rover 2.25 engine.)

Although the Land Rover version is actually based on a downsized 3 litre P5 Rover car engine. If you look at the first of the Land Rover 6 cyl (SIIA export forward controls in 1963) they even had the same water pump as the 3 litre.


Thought you would come up with an answer......your wealth of knowledge is unreal........;)

What about the thing that made it freewheel......do you know what that was,i am sure it was factory fitted.....the old man departed this world in 1984,so cant ask him anything:(

It may have been a round sort of knob under the dash that you screwed to turn on & off....its interesting as i have never seen anything like it since

[Bigbjorn]

Thought you would come up with an answer......your wealth of knowledge is unreal........;)

What about the thing that made it freewheel......do you know what that was,i am sure it was factory fitted.....the old man departed this world in 1984,so cant ask him anything:(

It may have been a round sort of knob under the dash that you screwed to turn on & off....its interesting as i have never seen anything like it since

It was a cable operated mechanism on the input shaft which disconnected the input shaft from the rest of the gearbox on the over-run.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thought you would come up with an answer......your wealth of knowledge is unreal........;)

What about the thing that made it freewheel......do you know what that was,i am sure it was factory fitted.....the old man departed this world in 1984,so cant ask him anything:(

It may have been a round sort of knob under the dash that you screwed to turn on & off....its interesting as i have never seen anything like it sinceBasically it was a sprag clutch, like the one in the gear cluster on a pushbike. Turned the other way around the Rover one was used in the 1948-(early)1951 80" Land Rover to make the constant 4X4.

[JDNSW]

Basically it was a sprag clutch, like the one in the gear cluster on a pushbike. Turned the other way around the Rover one was used in the 1948-(mid)1950 80" Land Rover to make the constant 4X4.

Free wheel units like this were introduced on cars in the 1930's, mainly because when fitted with one of these you can easily and noiselessly change gears without having synchromesh, as the gearbox stops moving almost as soon as you disengage the clutch. While the general introduction of synchromesh made them somewhat redundant, they continued to be fitted to semiluxury and luxury British cars into the sixties, as they make it easy to drive very smoothly. They were often combined with overdrive to give extra gears.

John

[vnx205]

Free wheel units like this were introduced on cars in the 1930's, mainly because when fitted with one of these you can easily and noiselessly change gears without having synchromesh, as the gearbox stops moving almost as soon as you disengage the clutch. While the general introduction of synchromesh made them somewhat redundant, they continued to be fitted to semiluxury and luxury British cars into the sixties, as they make it easy to drive very smoothly. They were often combined with overdrive to give extra gears.

John
My 1969 Toyota Crown had that system.

It was great. With a 3 speed column shift the overdrive gave four gears on the way up and five on the way down. It was especially useful towing a caravan.

It could be locked out for engine breaking, but then I didn't have the overdrive available.

That wasn't really a problem because generally when I needed engine braking I didn't need overdrive.

Mind you it used to frighten the daylights out of people who were not used to it who drove forward in first gear and expected the car to virtually stop when they lifted their foot.:p

[Olive Drab]

As usual a plethora of information that I am most grateful to everyone for sharing. I am definitely still going to go series diesel. The 202 is serving well getting its neck wrung on the freeway everyday even at 15l/100klm its reliable. The wishlist is an overdrive and a series diesel because of the amount of klms i drive (average 800-1000 per week). It stays on the wishlist for a while longer I need a new ride-on mower.


A fortnight away from the computer good to get my landy fix again.

[PAT303]

Why don't you just up the gearing?.Changing engines will not make a series a highway cruiser and an O/D will drive you mad.You need 3.54 diffs or if you go more off-road fit the centres out of the above mentioned P5 salloons,they are 3.9.They bolt straight into rover diffed LR's. Pat

[BMKal]

My 1969 Toyota Crown had that system.

It was great. With a 3 speed column shift the overdrive gave four gears on the way up and five on the way down. It was especially useful towing a caravan.

It could be locked out for engine breaking, but then I didn't have the overdrive available.

That wasn't really a problem because generally when I needed engine braking I didn't need overdrive.

Mind you it used to frighten the daylights out of people who were not used to it who drove forward in first gear and expected the car to virtually stop when they lifted their foot.:p

I'd be one of those.

The first time I came up to a railway crossing with the boom gates down at the bottom of a slope on Goodwood Road in Adelaide, in third gear, just after I bought my Crown - frightened the daylights out of me.

[JohnE]

Ah engine storys,
reminds me of a what a good mate did years ago, bought a brand new CJ6 jeep, with the rambler 26?? motor in it, couldnt; get it to go fast,( he liked to drive fast an absolute lunatic) so did everything he could to it, some bloke told him that if he got a diamond tipped drill bit and drilled a hole in a secret spot in the carby it would go like a V8,
it didn't work, even remember his father telling him that the gearing wouldn;t allow it to go like my HJ Monaro!.


just plod along its easier.


ohn

[rick130]

My 1969 Toyota Crown had that system.

<snip>

OMG, I learnt to drive on a '69 Crown ute.
4 speed on the column and wind out quarter vents. :D
Terminal brake fade (twin leading shoes were good for three big stops) and terminal oversteer.....in the dry.

Actually loved it to death, which it was fast approaching as I was the umpteenth apprentice to flog, er, drive it.