Caster Corrected Front Swivels, How to do it...

[sclarke]

Guys, my Rangie had the typical problem of Bump steer due to "Over lifting" i'm running 4.75" front bumpstop and due to this the caster was way out from Standard.

So i looked at the ideas with cranked arms and cranked bushes, but other problems would arise, like prop shaft yoke angles ect....

So i contacted Les Richmond Automotive and got a set of Swivels slotted.

The following is how i fitted them.

1st, Disassemble the whole front Diff and clean it all up
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1594.jpg

Then bolt up the Caster corrected swivels and do a trial fit to see where the 2 new holes are to be drilled and tapped
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1595.jpg

I then took them off and panted the housing where the bolts were to go with a texta, that way when i scribbed it, it would show up clear...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1596.jpg

Then i scribbed them, marked out the centers of the holes and drilled a pilot drill, then the correct drill size to suit my Tap that i was using. The tap i used was a 10mm with 1.5 pitch
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1597.jpg

I then tapped them and this is the end result
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1598.jpg

Then you fit a gasket, cut the 2 new holes in it, fit up the Swivle and make sure you put the new wiper seal and retaining plate on 1st.... i forgot the 1st time...
Then put the 2 extra bolts in and loctite and torque to the specifyed settings...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1599.jpg

Then put the whole assembly back together...
and it should look like this...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/1600.jpg

After all of that i check my wheel alignment and went for a drive....
Noticable difference and now it drives like a Rangie should....

Clarkie

[mcrover]

Does it have any noticable reduction in front shaft vibration Clarkie?

Good job :D

[rovercare]

Does it have any noticable reduction in front shaft vibration Clarkie?

Good job :D

:eek:How? has not effect on the front shaft:confused:

[discologist]

how much did the swivels cost you from les?i got a jacked disco running 35s and caster correction bushes dont give enough caster,so i think your solution will make the disco drive like a car again..............cheers,Ramon.

[sclarke]

how much did the swivels cost you from les?i got a jacked disco running 35s and caster correction bushes dont give enough caster,so i think your solution will make the disco drive like a car again..............cheers,Ramon.

$150 per side

Cheaper than cranked arms and does not cause propshaft issues.

Or buy my 6 bolt ones for $200 posted.....

[mcrover]

:eek:How? has not effect on the front shaft:confused:

It does effect the angle of the uni on the front diff which in some cases (mine included) gives a bit of vibration after you lift it.

Slotting the balls is meant to eliminate (or atleast reduce) this vibration but ive been told about it but wanted to know if Steve had found that.

It has no effect on the TC end of the shaft just the front diff end.

[weeds]

slotted or extra holes drilled? everybody is referring to slotted is this what you are calling the extra holes

any reason you didn't drill your own swivels out

[mike 90 RR]

$150 per side

Cheaper than cranked arms and does not cause propshaft issues.

Or buy my 6 bolt ones for $200 posted.....

Your 6 bolt ones are slotted ... rather than redrilled? as I saw a photo of them


Does it have any noticable reduction in front shaft vibration Clarkie?

I would not expect it .. as the diff angle has not been altered ... only castor angle altered ... but would like to know also


It does effect the angle of the uni on the front diff which in some cases (mine included) gives a bit of vibration after you lift it.

Slotting the balls is meant to eliminate (or at least reduce) this vibration but ive been told about it but wanted to know if Steve had found that.

It has no effect on the T/C end of the shaft just the front diff end.

The castor correction rubbers are suppose to turn the diff housing ... so as to improve the castor & the diff angle .... My understanding is that the diff uni and the T/C uni are to be of the same amount of degrees to eliminate Propshaft / driveline vibration

Hence ... you can't have the diff uni straight and the T/C uni bent ... must be the same angle

This is what the cranked arms are suppose to do?? ... Turn the diff housing

Mike

:)

[mcrover]

Your 6 bolt ones are slotted ... rather than redrilled? as I saw a photo of them



I would not expect it .. as the diff angle has not been altered ... only castor angle altered ... but would like to know also



The castor correction rubbers are suppose to turn the diff housing ... so as to improve the castor & the diff angle .... My understanding is that the diff uni and the T/C uni are to be of the same amount of degrees to eliminate Propshaft / driveline vibration

Hence ... you can't have the diff uni straight and the T/C uni bent ... must be the same angle

This is what the cranked arms are suppose to do?? ... Turn the diff housing

Mike

:)

Ok, I get it now, maybe the person I was talking to (I dont know him, I just met him at Jamies) must have had caster correcting bushes or done other stuff to change the diff angle.

I see what you guys mean now.

[DeeJay]

Clarkie,
If your old swivel housings are slotted, then Richmonds housings offer a greater angle?? Is it much?
I can't see why you would bother otherwise.
I've got both slotted housings & caster correction but my County is'nt lifted much and i think its causing the occassional wobbles.
BTW, is that twin shockers & a rear sals I see in your pic?
Cheers, David

[Bush65]

...The castor correction rubbers are suppose to turn the diff housing ... so as to improve the castor & the diff angle ...
Castor correction bushes improve the castor but they upset the diff angle on Land Rovers (and reduce articulation)


...My understanding is that the diff uni and the T/C uni are to be of the same amount of degrees to eliminate Propshaft / driveline vibration ...
In many conventional vehicles your understanding would be correct, but for the front tailshaft of coil sprung Land Rovers it is wrong.


... Hence ... you can't have the diff uni straight and the T/C uni bent ... must be the same angle ...
Yes you can - this is exactly how a tailshaft with a double cardan joint must be set-up (e.g. Disco II front tailshaft). And is very close to how earlier coil sprung front tailshafts should be.

When Land Rover introduced coil springs, they raised the front of the engine to get more clearance between the engine and axle housing.

This inclined the engine and driveline down to the rear. This was not a problem for the rear tailshaft - just angle the diff pinion up so it was parallel with the engine and gearbox.

But angling the front diff pinion down would not be good for the u-joint angles.

So Land Rover angled the diff pinion up toward the t/case. This makes the u-joints out of phase, but by rotating the front and rear u-joints out of line it bought the joints back into phase and corrected the vibrations to an acceptable amount.

Rotating the swivel housing is the best way to correct the castor of a coil sprung Land Rover without upsetting the front tailshaft.

[discologist]

$150 per side

Cheaper than cranked arms and does not cause propshaft issues.

Or buy my 6 bolt ones for $200 posted.....

im a little confused:confused:,whats the advantage of using your 6 bolt swivel housings????cheers Ramon.

[mcrover]

Castor correction bushes improve the castor but they upset the diff angle on Land Rovers (and reduce articulation)


In many conventional vehicles your understanding would be correct, but for the front tailshaft of coil sprung Land Rovers it is wrong.


Yes you can - this is exactly how a tailshaft with a double cardan joint must be set-up (e.g. Disco II front tailshaft). And is very close to how earlier coil sprung front tailshafts should be.

When Land Rover introduced coil springs, they raised the front of the engine to get more clearance between the engine and axle housing.

This inclined the engine and driveline down to the rear. This was not a problem for the rear tailshaft - just angle the diff pinion up so it was parallel with the engine and gearbox.

But angling the front diff pinion down would not be good for the u-joint angles.

So Land Rover angled the diff pinion up toward the t/case. This makes the u-joints out of phase, but by rotating the front and rear u-joints out of line it bought the joints back into phase and corrected the vibrations to an acceptable amount.

Rotating the swivel housing is the best way to correct the castor of a coil sprung Land Rover without upsetting the front tailshaft.


Thanks for that, I remember something now about shafts being in and out of phase, I run unis on a lot of equipment but there is rarely any problems with vibrations that are noticable over the rest of the machine.

So is it just a matter of turning the flanges around or can you split the shaft and move it around on splines? Ive never paid that much attention of the shaft itself.

Ive recently replaced the unis but pit them back the way they came appart so that shouldnt be a problem unless they were pit together wrong to start with before I got it as it has always had a slight vibe but is more noticable now it's lifted.

[sclarke]

im a little confused:confused:,whats the advantage of using your 6 bolt swivel housings????cheers Ramon.


What is the advantage????

OK back to the start....
Any lift over 2" can cause bump steer problems.
Correcting the Caster fixes this.

So these swivel housings will fix this....

[sclarke]

slotted or extra holes drilled? everybody is referring to slotted is this what you are calling the extra holes

any reason you didn't drill your own swivels out

Slotted....
and extra holes drilled as locking bolts so they wont rotate back

[weeds]

Slotted....
and extra holes drilled as locking bolts so they wont rotate back

OK, i'm guessing the slots were not ery long....thanks

[rovercare]

I see what you guys mean now.

:D:D:D

[rovercare]

Thanks for that, I remember something now about shafts being in and out of phase, I run unis on a lot of equipment but there is rarely any problems with vibrations that are noticable over the rest of the machine.

So is it just a matter of turning the flanges around or can you split the shaft and move it around on splines? Ive never paid that much attention of the shaft itself.

Ive recently replaced the unis but pit them back the way they came appart so that shouldnt be a problem unless they were pit together wrong to start with before I got it as it has always had a slight vibe but is more noticable now it's lifted.

Man your confuzzled, you can;t turn the flanges to change the phasing of the shaft, it needs to be split and rotated on the slip joint spline

If you drag yourself underneath, the phasing should be out enough to be noticeable by eye

[rovercare]

OK, i'm guessing the slots were not ery long....thanks

Enough to allow 5degrees of rotation;)

[mcrover]

Man your confuzzled, you can;t turn the flanges to change the phasing of the shaft, it needs to be split and rotated on the slip joint spline

If you drag yourself underneath, the phasing should be out enough to be noticeable by eye

Thanks Matt, I was in a hurry when I chucked it all back together when I did it last time and Ive never had the slip joint appart so I wasnt sure what type it was, e.g. spline with 1 possition etc etc.

Yeah matt, I know Im confuzzled, im pretty much off with the fairies today for some reason, might be because Im on holidays and not used to being this awake :eek:

[350RRC]

On a RRC every 1/2" of lift causes a loss of 1 degree of caster. They have 3 degrees to start with. I put up with the shopping trolley effect from a 2" lift for years before rotating the swivels.

It makes a huge improvement to driveability and it is not hard to do yourself.

DL

[pug303]

On a RRC every 1/2" of lift causes a loss of 1 degree of caster. They have 3 degrees to start with. I put up with the shopping trolley effect from a 2" lift for years before rotating the swivels.

It makes a huge improvement to driveability and it is not hard to do yourself.

DL

Hi, I've long been aware of this issue but until recently my Disco hasn't been too bad. Why is it suddenly an issue after all these years. Is it castor or is something else making it more obvious (rear a arm ball joint, for instance).

I had a period a couple of years ago when it was tram-lining badly etc and changing the steering box seemed to correct it. Now it is the worst it has ever been.

Any views most welcome.

Thanks

Cheers

Jim

[mike 90 RR]

Sclarke .... Brilliant post ... Trouble is that it gives me more Q's than I wanted
In the picture of drivers side ... you rotated Anti clockwise?

Bush65 .... I get what your saying ... Can you clarify

... // Hence .. For a front RRC diff ....

IF the front diff is turned to give the uni joints on the Diff & the T/C the same degrees .... so the propshaft must be set "out of phase"

IF the front diff uni joint is straight & the T/C is bent .... the propshaft is set "in phase"

Mcrover .... The problem with moving the spline to "out of phase" is that if it was balanced in phase .... you could upset the balancing // so you fix 1 problem ... but score a different one /// but give it a go

Rovercare .... Hardi Spicer set up my front "out of phase" propshaft 29degrees or 2 splines off (Sort of 1/4 turn) // Is this gonna be a contributing problem to funny vibrations
I have tried different positions with varying affects


350RRC .... Thank you for that info ... gives me a formula to work with


I appreciate your info ... and trying to make it apply to my RRC setup .. so I can get it right :) as you know it's a hard area to sort out as not even LR could sort out properly ... that big steel dampening weight might give the hint ;)

Mike

;)

[mcrover]

Check all the steering links, wheel bearings and the like and then the radius rod bushings and if all looks good then I would consider that you may have bent something.

The thing is, from what I have heard, you need to go more than 2.5" to 3" to be effected in most cases from lack of CASTER (I recon ive got it right htis time Matt) so I would think that if it is something that has slowly become a problem then it is more than likely a wearing item that needs looking at.

[discologist]

Slotted....
and extra holes drilled as locking bolts so they wont rotate back

sounds good,as long as theyll fit a late series 1 disco,im interested,as i can fit them when i fit lockers.cheers,Ramon.

[rovercare]

sounds good,as long as theyll fit a late series 1 disco,im interested,as i can fit them when i fit lockers.cheers,Ramon.

No they will not, as clarkie would know, thats why he's selling them, yours will also be 7 bolt;)

[sclarke]

No they will not, as clarkie would know, thats why he's selling them, yours will also be 7 bolt;)

Exactly, unless you replace the diff housing as well you need a set of 7 bolt.

So the 6 bolt i have suit pre 85 RR

[Bush65]

Hi, I've long been aware of this issue but until recently my Disco hasn't been too bad. Why is it suddenly an issue after all these years. Is it castor or is something else making it more obvious (rear a arm ball joint, for instance).

I had a period a couple of years ago when it was tram-lining badly etc and changing the steering box seemed to correct it. Now it is the worst it has ever been.

Any views most welcome.

Thanks

Cheers

Jim
Can be a number of issues, including:
Swivel bearing preload (lack of correct preload).
Pan hard bushes
Radius arm bushes
Tie rod ends
Tyres
Wheel alignment

[Bush65]

...
Bush65 .... I get what your saying ... Can you clarify

... // Hence .. For a front RRC diff ....
...
Sorry not sure what you want here.


... IF the front diff is turned to give the uni joints on the Diff & the T/C the same degrees .... so the propshaft must be set "out of phase" ...
Sorry I can't make too much sense of this.

In the 1st part are you asking about rotating the front diff so that it will be at the same angle as the t/case?

Stock castor is 3 degrees.
Stock angle of front diff pinion is approximately 12 degrees (from memory) up towards the rear.
Stock angle of t/c, I haven't measured - my guess is 5 to 7 degrees down toward the rear.

Now, to make the front diff pinion parallel with the transfer case, you would have to rotate the front diff assembly 12 + 5 to 7 degrees (approx 18 degrees.

Then you would need to make the u-joints in the front tailshaft in phase so they don't vibrate.

You would also have to rotate the swivel balls forward approx 18 degrees to correct the castor angle.

Lastly but not leastly, you would have to find some u-joints that can operate at high angles (the stock ones won't come close) - remember when the diff pinion is rotated down it make the angle of the tailshaft much steeper.

The other problem you would find is that the tie/track rod would be much lower than the axle housing and would be damaged easier.


... IF the front diff uni joint is straight & the T/C is bent .... the propshaft is set "in phase" ...
Sorry, again I find it difficult to understand what you are asking.

I probably had a glass of wine before I made my previous post that you are questioning, but I thought it was reasonably straight forward.

If you disagree with, or can't follow something I said in that post, please quote the part/parts in question - don't put your words in among mine and hope that I can decipher them (it only confuses me as to what you are inferring).

[Waxenwane]

Hi, I've long been aware of this issue but until recently my Disco hasn't been too bad. Why is it suddenly an issue after all these years. Is it castor or is something else making it more obvious (rear a arm ball joint, for instance).

I had a period a couple of years ago when it was tram-lining badly etc and changing the steering box seemed to correct it. Now it is the worst it has ever been.

Any views most welcome.

Thanks

Cheers

Jim Most likely culprit is swivel bearings, they develop 'straight ahead' wear marks over time and become more prone to it as they wear and loosen up. The bearings are cheap ($11) and it is easy to replace them.


Enough to allow 5degrees of rotation;)

:eek: You are kidding I hope or do you mean in total? :D

BTW Happy new year to all

[rovercare]

:eek: You are kidding I hope or do you mean in total? :D

BTW Happy new year to all

I mean 5 degrees of rotation:p

Spec is +3 total

[mrapocalypse]

That's pretty interesting. I hadn't really considered that you would get benefit from rotating only the castor angle and leaving diff pinion still pointing up after a lift.

I always thought you had to roll the whole axle casing assembly to get it to mirror original factory UJ angles. But it wouldn't unless you altered the wheel base! Too much zig zag!

Nice!

[Waxenwane]

I mean 5 degrees of rotation:p

Spec is +3 total

That's better, I slotted mine 2.5 degrees and has made a noticeable difference.

[marty56011]

i have a 3 inch lift on my disco 1 and all this talk about slotting swivels to correct caster has me very interested, my question is

how much of a slot/elongation of the hole do i need to move them 2.5 degrees or however far is needed, (i'll reread the thread to check the proper numbers)is there some way of using a tape measure or marking the swivel mount plate or something.

also there has been talk about propshaft, when u split them and rejoin them at the sliding joint/splined part they need to be put together correctly so the phase is right, how can i check mine to make sure there right as i have noticed vibration in the shafts

i do hope im not making a easily confusing subject worse

many thank marty