PDA

View Full Version : 300tdi on bio?



2keen
4th January 2009, 06:26 AM
would someone b able to tell me if and how can a 300tdi be converted to run on bio fuel, does bio still work with d/gas or diesel gas

BilboBoggles
4th January 2009, 07:33 AM
No conversion is needed on a 300tdi, just fill up with 100% diodiesel. There is a changover period as it flushed crap out of the fuel system so you will more than likely need to change the fuel filters in the first 1000 k's or so and keep checking them. The 300 tdi seems to run a lot better on biodiesel, makes it noticably quieter.

I bought my biodiesel from SAFF which run a few servo's in melbourne that sell it at the pump.

2keen
4th January 2009, 08:19 AM
i heard somewhere dunno how true that it can eat away at gaskets and seals and stuff:eek:, but if it doesn't need no mods than thats the go.:D

abaddonxi
4th January 2009, 08:47 AM
There is a possibility that if your fuel injection pump is getting long in the tooth that running biodiesel will speed that along. Rebuilding a fuel injection pump is quite expensive.

Cheers
Simon

clean32
4th January 2009, 09:02 AM
Bio good stuff, when i had my 300 tdi we run it on nothing else, no problems.

just remember that bio is more of a solvent than dino diesel, so all the crap that has built up over the years in your tank and lines will break down and end up in your filters, possibly even blocking them. Its no big deal you end up with a cleaner system anyway.

As for Gaskets, old days with rubber gaskets, they tended to dissolve or swell, the modern stuff no problems

Just don’t fill up at Saff until after 830 am, you don’t want to joint the long Que of trucks filling up before they head interstate.

clean32
4th January 2009, 09:04 AM
There is a possibility that if your fuel injection pump is getting long in the tooth that running biodiesel will speed that along. Rebuilding a fuel injection pump is quite expensive.

Cheers
Simon

Bolloxxx, the 300tdi is lubed by the motor oil, bio no efect

B92 8NW
4th January 2009, 09:06 AM
There is a possibility that if your fuel injection pump is getting long in the tooth that running biodiesel will speed that along. Rebuilding a fuel injection pump is quite expensive.

Cheers
Simon

Looks like you've been reading excerpts from my version of "this is your life":D

B92 8NW
4th January 2009, 09:07 AM
Bolloxxx, the 300tdi is lubed by the motor oil, bio no efect

Umm no. It isn't a inline pump lubed by the engine oil. Its a radial pump lubricated by the diesel fuel.

abaddonxi
4th January 2009, 09:20 AM
Bolloxxx, the 300tdi is lubed by the motor oil, bio no efect

Only going on personal experience and hearsay. Several on AULRO, me included have found the need for a pump replace/rebuild shortly after taking up biodiesel.

As in my first post, not saying it is a certainty, but it is worth considering.

Simon

clean32
4th January 2009, 09:40 AM
Only going on personal experience and hearsay. Several on AULRO, me included have found the need for a pump replace/rebuild shortly after taking up biodiesel.

As in my first post, not saying it is a certainty, but it is worth considering.

Simon
Then explain how his would have happened? What properties of Bio diesel would have such an effect?
its is a surprise considering that many Euro manufactures offer extended warranties on motors which use Bio, yet the same cars in Australia have aussie dealers who slag bio??
I am referring to Fait, VW and merc ( that I know of)
Bio and Bio blends are freely available to the point of it is starting to get hard to purchase normal diesel ( in some places), add to that the synthetic diesels available over there.

abaddonxi
4th January 2009, 11:34 AM
Sorry mate, I'm not technical enough to get into this. I'd have a look at this, and maybe Rick130 will chime in.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/bio-fuels/59322-biodiesel-engine-lubrication.html

From what I understand, biodiesel is not good for seals unless they are Viton/Vitron which wasn't standard until 1996 or after.

As I understand it, cycling biodiesel and diesel causes the seals to expand and contract, and I suspect lead to swifter failure if the seals are already old. Since 300Tdi's stopped production about ten years ago, any 300Tdi that hasn't had a pump overhaul is likely to have old seals, and possibly not Vitron/Viton seals.

Like I have said, it is not a definite thing, nor a proved thing. But, judging from my experience, and some others on here, there might be a connection, and it is worth mentioning and considering when looking at using biodiesel.

And it's just a difficult thing to prove on a forum, on one side are a bunch of people who have used biodiesel exclusively for x Km and haven't had a problem. And on the other side is that since biodiesel has a reputation (fair or unfair) for having wildly varying quality control (in commercial production) coupled with very little presented evidence of vehicles run solely on biodiesel from new for x Km which have been taken apart to actually see the effects.

Fwiw I've been using biodiesel from Volume Plus (not solely) for the past three and a half years, but I've also replaced my fuel injection pump very soon after I started using biodiesel. Again, on the other hand when I had it over the dyno, Wade at G Cooper was surprised at how little soot appeared, to the eye, in the oil after a change and a run.

Simon

David Read
8th January 2009, 08:19 AM
would someone b able to tell me if and how can a 300tdi be converted to run on bio fuel, does bio still work with d/gas or diesel gas

Hi
Just pour the Bio in, buy a couple of fuel filters and learn to change them on the side of the road/track! :)

Been running my '97 300TDi since June '04 - no problems.
I fitted an electric lift pump - makes priming sooo much easier.

In August '07 swapped 300Tdi out for a new HS2800.
Been running that on Bio from day one, now got 15K on the clock

Notes:-
* bio is a far better lubricant
* smells better :)

I bailed up a Holden dealer tech recently on Bio in their diesel vehicles.
Their concern appears to be about control of water content.

BTW, talk about no warranty only with Bio is bollocks!!
NO fuel related engine damage is covered in standard new car warranty, no matter what fuel is used!
You have to claim on the fuel company's insurance.

Cheers
Dave
South Oz

macbac
9th January 2009, 05:16 PM
hi there

I ran my 4.2 ltr land cruzer on bio from 96 to 2006 changed fuel lines and pump seals to nitrol/nytrol (unsure of spelling) due to unsure if 4x4 had ruber ones as it was around this time most manufactures changed to bio compatable seals as bio will eat away ruber any how had some isues with quality from servo so started making it my self from used chip oil works out to about 30cents a letter and the bi product makes for good fertalizer in garden allso noticed less smoke from rear better smell and cleaner oil ever part of the fuel system cleaner and if spilt there is no enviromental isues as it bio degradabale i now have a petrol RR on LPG and thinking about still have my prosesing gear to make bio fuel if any one is interrested in making it them self as I found it to be much cleaner then servo even though it was better still was perdantic about fuel filters so i ran two and chaged every 10,000km cheap insurance.

ps: had fuel pump and injecters servesed as per manual around 2006 just before I sold it but dont believe it was needed. wasted $2,800 new owner was happy thow.

PM me if interested.

cheers:twobeers:

rick130
9th January 2009, 07:04 PM
Then explain how his would have happened? What properties of Bio diesel would have such an effect?
its is a surprise considering that many Euro manufactures offer extended warranties on motors which use Bio, yet the same cars in Australia have aussie dealers who slag bio??
I am referring to Fait, VW and merc ( that I know of)
Bio and Bio blends are freely available to the point of it is starting to get hard to purchase normal diesel ( in some places), add to that the synthetic diesels available over there.


Proper bio diesel as opposed to WVO is an esterfied fat or oil, and in theory should have a far better lubricity than conventional ULSD diesel however...

esters, by their nature are conventional elastomer seal swellers and softeners.
esters have a natural degree of detergency (as many have found out :o )
some esters are polar. (meaning they have an affinity for other polar items like metals)
some esters have an affinity for water.
some esters react with water and become corrosive.
Last time I asked a chemist I was told there are over 200 different types of di-abasic and poly-ol esters that are used as hydraulic fluids and lubricants.

The seal swelling problem is overcome by using the correct seal material.
AFAIK Viton, a flurocarbon elastomer is the seal of choice.

IIRC older pumps used nitrile seals. Nitrile loses it's elasticity with age, soak it with a seal sweller, particularly if there's a little bit of garbage caught behind it and it will probably seal better for a while, then the crap gets washed away, and eventually the seal either becomes too soft to support the pressure behind it and leaks or it tears.
Pump overhaul time.

The other thing to consider with bio diesel is;

What standards does the bio conform to ?
Who has tested it ?

Conventional diesel from the majors has to conform to the current Oz standard for sulphur, cetane, lubricity, etc.

Some more points to consider.
There should be less soot with bio diesel so less strain on the lubricating oil from that aspect.
If using a mechanical rotary injector pump it should last a lot longer with bio if it's good bio diesel
I'm suspect of bio-diesel from a fuel dilution point as per the link Simon posted above, but better oils will alleviate this.
Shorter oil change intervals of 5-7,500km should help in the short term, but I have no testing to reference to see if this holds true.

rick130
9th January 2009, 07:10 PM
<snip>

BTW, talk about no warranty only with Bio is bollocks!!
NO fuel related engine damage is covered in standard new car warranty, no matter what fuel is used!
You have to claim on the fuel company's insurance.

Cheers
Dave
South Oz


Hi Dave,
good to see you post here, takes me back to the AULRO and RRO list days :D

Yep, I think you're right about the fuel and warranty, as a few people have found out the hard way with 'normal' fuels.

rick130
11th January 2009, 03:19 PM
Some interesting points from Penrite regarding bio-diesel and engine lubes.
This backs up my information and information I've posted previously from Chevron/Texaco/Caltex.


Biodiesel however is more of an issue.
B5 and B10 are common overseas with some B20 and very occasionally, B100.
The “bio” is the ester part. These esters are made from a chemical process where vegetable
oils or animal fats are reacted with an alcohol to form a fatty acid methyl ester (or FAME). The
common vegetable type oils are canola oil, palm oil and soybean. And you can also make it
from corn, olive and sunflower oil. Even used cooking oil is a good source once refined.
Biodiesel has some issues that mineral diesel does not have.
Fuel dilution is always a problem with diesels. But biodiesel is less volatile. Hence, while the
mineral component may evaporate, the “bio” part does not. This of course lowers the viscosity
of the oil. However, to counter that, the “bios” are not as oxidatively stable so the oil thickens
again – but with the usual oxidation by-products occurring (but worse) such as sludge and
increased piston deposits. So the combination of the two factors can impact engine wear.
Poor quality biodiesel may also lead to ash build up in diesel particulate filters and work is
continuing on that factor. In Europe and the USA, there are tight specifications for the “bio”
component to ensure that overall fuel quality is not compromised. So simply blending your old
cooking oil with your fuel is not a wise option.
While many OEMs accept B5 diesel, recent work has found that even that 5% dilution can have
a major impact on oil life and that lubricant selection will be critical. In modern engines that
require low SAPS oils, the low SAPS oils seem to be able to handle B5/B10 blends better than
other grades (so Enviro+ Engine Oils and Diesel SP are favoured). In older engines, little
work has yet been done, but products such as HPR Diesel 5, Diesel GS and Diesel LA would
be favoured here.
Current practice recommends standard oil drain intervals be halved when using biodiesel
regardless of the oil type and that is certainly the stand that Penrite will be taking while
research continues.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/files/276IJDE46F/134%20LUBRICANTS%20AND%20BIOFUEL.pdf

abaddonxi
11th January 2009, 03:51 PM
Are Low SAPS oils not recommended for older engines? All I could find was stuff about cats and particulate filters.

Simon

rick130
11th January 2009, 04:35 PM
Are Low SAPS oils not recommended for older engines? All I could find was stuff about cats and particulate filters.

Simon

Definitely not petrol engines like the Rover V8, but most diesels should be fine on the low SAPS brews.
AFAIK the oil companies have had to substitute exxy AW additives to compensate for the loss of the ash compounds as most fleets are mixed and operators like to standardise on one oil so there aren't any stuff ups.

The low SAPS CJ-4 and ACEA 6 oils are supposedly much better than previous oils in terms of wear, scuffing and bore polishing (ACEA 7), but may not be able to go quite as far with the extended drains that some big truck operators used with CI-4+ and ACEA 7 type oils.

I have a low SAPS oil in two sumps ATM, so I'll know in a couple of thousand km whether I've stuffed up or not. <edit> which I doubt, as it meets API CI-4 too</edit>

lardy
17th January 2009, 08:02 PM
on a 98 130 did they put in non rubber fuel lines?
or are they still natural rubber?
and the fuel pump should be sweet on bio by this date correct ?????
regards andy

lardy
5th February 2009, 09:12 AM
Hi
Just pour the Bio in, buy a couple of fuel filters and learn to change them on the side of the road/track! :)

Been running my '97 300TDi since June '04 - no problems.
I fitted an electric lift pump - makes priming sooo much easier.

In August '07 swapped 300Tdi out for a new HS2800.
Been running that on Bio from day one, now got 15K on the clock

Notes:-
* bio is a far better lubricant
* smells better :)

I bailed up a Holden dealer tech recently on Bio in their diesel vehicles.
Their concern appears to be about control of water content.

BTW, talk about no warranty only with Bio is bollocks!!
NO fuel related engine damage is covered in standard new car warranty, no matter what fuel is used!
You have to claim on the fuel company's insurance.

Cheers
Dave
South Oz

gday dave,
What is this hs2800 lump you speak of ???
it's not the international brazilian worked one is it ??
if so where dya get it how many pennies ??
regards andy

Gavo
5th February 2009, 09:38 AM
The big debate continues.
I run my 4bd1 on 20% deisel / vege oil mix in one tank and the second tank has straight deisel.
The only drama I have is I run on the wrong tank near lunch time, the smell makes me hungry.:D

ANY IDEAS :confused:

lloyds disco
5th February 2009, 08:00 PM
put a time clock solinoid on the second tank so it is not available during lunch hours
:-)

clean32
7th February 2009, 07:59 PM
So the only concern really is the quality of the Bio and nothing else?



Proper bio diesel as opposed to WVO is an esterfied fat or oil, and in theory should have a far better lubricity than conventional ULSD diesel however...

esters, by their nature are conventional elastomer seal swellers and softeners.
esters have a natural degree of detergency (as many have found out :o )
some esters are polar. (meaning they have an affinity for other polar items like metals)
some esters have an affinity for water.
some esters react with water and become corrosive.
Last time I asked a chemist I was told there are over 200 different types of di-abasic and poly-ol esters that are used as hydraulic fluids and lubricants.

The seal swelling problem is overcome by using the correct seal material.
AFAIK Viton, a flurocarbon elastomer is the seal of choice.

IIRC older pumps used nitrile seals. Nitrile loses it's elasticity with age, soak it with a seal sweller, particularly if there's a little bit of garbage caught behind it and it will probably seal better for a while, then the crap gets washed away, and eventually the seal either becomes too soft to support the pressure behind it and leaks or it tears.
Pump overhaul time.

The other thing to consider with bio diesel is;

What standards does the bio conform to ?
Who has tested it ?

Conventional diesel from the majors has to conform to the current Oz standard for sulphur, cetane, lubricity, etc.

Some more points to consider.
There should be less soot with bio diesel so less strain on the lubricating oil from that aspect.
If using a mechanical rotary injector pump it should last a lot longer with bio if it's good bio diesel
I'm suspect of bio-diesel from a fuel dilution point as per the link Simon posted above, but better oils will alleviate this.
Shorter oil change intervals of 5-7,500km should help in the short term, but I have no testing to reference to see if this holds true.

lambrover
7th March 2009, 08:52 PM
I have just been working in a fuel injection shop rebuilding pumps and injectors the boss said to stay away from bio fuels, they wear pumps and injectors out quicker as they have less lubrication properties than standard diesel and the pumps on bio are so dirty on the inside. and i think there was an issue with catalitic converters and particulate traps becoming damaged, not sure if the euro bio is better than ours, their standard fuel is better than ours.

Blknight.aus
7th March 2009, 09:55 PM
So the only concern really is the quality of the Bio and nothing else?



primarily yes, but its not just one quality control factor that you have to worry about.

theres 3 different chemical techniques Im aware of for making "biodiesel" and Im not entirely convinced they all like each other. my point being that if you got fuel from blend method A and mixed it with method C it might become acidic and eat the metal out of your fuel pump but if you mixed B with A it might turn into clag glue and block your filter. Thats just a gut feeling tho, if your making your own you dont need to worry about it unless you decide you want to go with a different method.

the second thing is the condition of your engine and fuel system. In the same way that diesel engine oil is different to petrol engine oil if you run a petrol engine on diesel oil from the get go its all good but if you put a diesel engine oil in a petrol (over a prolonged time) after its been well and truely run in on petrol engine oil then bad things can happen. Dino diesel vs Bio diesel has a similar effect.

the last thing you need to worry about is the breakdown point of bio. the higher your injection pressure the more of a problem it becomes, this is the main reason I sit with the no bio in td5's crowd the TDI runs close to the point that I consider that BIO looses lubricity theres a comfortable margin on a set of injectors running at the advertised OEM pressures but what about if the pumps been tweaked or you get a set that are on the tight side?

other than that if bios going to do bad juju to a tdi it was going to happen anyway but it will potentially happen earlier.

rick130
8th March 2009, 06:36 AM
So the only concern really is the quality of the Bio and nothing else?


The potential fuel dilution issue I posted about after that post is a biggie too IMO.
Bio is a lot less volatile than dino diesel so it will stay in the crankcase and dilute the engine oil. Not good.


Fuel dilution is always a problem with diesels. But biodiesel is less volatile. Hence, while the
mineral component may evaporate, the “bio” part does not. This of course lowers the viscosity
of the oil. However, to counter that, the “bios” are not as oxidatively stable so the oil thickens
again – but with the usual oxidation by-products occurring (but worse) such as sludge and
increased piston deposits. So the combination of the two factors can impact engine wear.
Poor quality biodiesel may also lead to ash build up in diesel particulate filters and work is
continuing on that factor. In Europe and the USA, there are tight specifications for the “bio”
component to ensure that overall fuel quality is not compromised. So simply blending your old
cooking oil with your fuel is not a wise option.
While many OEMs accept B5 diesel, recent work has found that even that 5% dilution can have
a major impact on oil life and that lubricant selection will be critical.

from here http://www.penriteoil.com.au/files/276IJDE46F/134%20LUBRICANTS%20AND%20BIOFUEL.pdf

5% fuel dilution is catastrophe time for engine wear IMO, I aim for under 0.5% dilution with conventional diesel and premium lubes, although most Australian labs can't seem to be able to measure under 1%.

Blknight.aus
8th March 2009, 06:46 AM
rick, if you like I'll get you the contact details of the lab that does the busmaster sample analysis. Pm me if your interested.

lambrover
13th March 2009, 06:47 PM
Dave, I totaly agree. you would probably be safe running bio on an old toyoata 2H or nissan TD42 but as you said with the higher injection pressures of the rover motors its not worth the risk.

plugma
18th March 2009, 12:14 AM
Hi Folks,

Crap, crap and more crap! (excuse the french!)

But...I read this stuff all the time about the good, bad and ugly of biodiesel (aka. long chain alkyl ((in this case methyl esters)) made by esterification of vegetable oil and/or animal fats)

I normaly hold my council and look on with quite ammusement as the subject is debated to death (usually by oil company proponents or at the very least by some serious influence brought to bear by them or their representatives).

A recent thread on this forum about catalytic converters and bio diesel provided the catalyst for this response (pardon the pun!)... like I said.... I normally sit back and just observe.

Whenever I hear of a new argument as to why biodiesel should be avoided at all costs, I immediately phone my good mate who is a currently practicing industrial chemist. After a five minute in depth explanation it became immediately obvious that the mechanic who reckons that (good) bio will damage a catalytic converter should perhaps stick more to mechanicing than philosophy. The same goes for high pressure lubricity (more on that later)

Whenever I hear about all the problems associated with high acidity, high alkalinity, high water levels, excess this and excess that, it is blatantly obvious that we are not talking about biodiesel as per the description in parragraph 2 above.

Properly produced biodiesel has a PH level that is near neutral, has little or no soaps (mainly due to transesterification or presence of water in the oil stock) and has very little, if any residual glycerin and does not contain any residual methanol. Incidentally, methanol is a very common additive used in scandinavian countries to winterize fossil fuel diesel at rates up to 20%/vol. I have that first hand from a visiting Rotarian bus operator from Stockholm.

So.... if we are going to keep the debate in perspective, we really need to base it on biodiesel that is properly made (in a backyard perspective)

And it's not that hard to do. If you are using waste vegetable oil then the correct titration procedure is critical, as well as the correct volume of methanol, the temperature and length of the reaction time and more importanly, the filtering/cleaning of the final product.

I have been producing biodiesel for about six years and have run all my vehicles exclusively on B100 in all of that time. I have run it in a number of different engines including the 300Tdi at B100 for a number of years and have had no problems whatsoever.

Five years ago I purchased a Mazda Capella Diesel (Japanese imported 626). When first purchased at 145000, injector wear was causing noticable black smoke. The engine has now done 330000, same injectors, same pump and the smoke is now less than when first purchased. I also completely rebuilt another RF7 Mazda engine in one of my other Capella's three years ago. That had done over 300k and was dead tired. The very same injectors and pump have since done over 70k on B100. Compression is so good, that it will start on just a twitch of the ignition key and ther aint any smoke!

My 97 Tdi300 has had nothing else other than B100 for the past 40000km and I have had no trouble other than the rubber hoses on the injector bypass lines. I changed them to viton and they have been fine ever since.

I have never heard of or directly observed the death of an injector pump due to seals or otherwise caused by (good) biodiesel. Neither has my local diesel injector technician. Common failure that is commonly blamed by biodiesel is the front shaft seal wear caused by excessive dust inside the timing cover. That can and will happen with fossil diesel as well.

So... in the interests of good healthy discussion and in defence of the poor old biodiesel, let us please keep the comments and observations directly relative to properly made (back yard or otherwise) biodiesel.

In relation to high pressure lubricity, I have discussed this with more than one industrial chemist. They all agree that properly made alkyl methyl esters will not suffer from reduced lubricity under high and even extreme pressures. I have been told by them that there is no reason why good B100 should not provide adequate lubricity even in common rail engines. As a matter of fact they all claim that biodiesel is a better fuel for common rail than fossil fuel.

In any event, there are a number of forum members and also biodiesel forum members that have successfully used B100 in the Td5 engine for extended periods of time with no ill effects. A good number of European manufacturers now also alow B20 to be used in common rail. If it were so bad, would that be allowed????

With all due respect to forum participants, it seems that the perceived potential engine damage from using good biodiesel is directly proportiional to the cost of replacing the injectors and pumps. With what I know from direct experience, I would have no hesitation whatsoever in pouring good B100 directly into the tank of a Td5.

As a matter of fact.... at least I know where it came from.... how it was stored and that it is filtered down to 5 microns. Beyond the refinery gate, the rest of us would only be guessing!!

Regards
Maarten

rick130
18th March 2009, 07:42 AM
Thanks for the contribution Maarten.

Curious, what oil and change intervals are you using on your vehicles, and what sort of service ?
ie. worked hard everyday, short trips, etc.
From my own POV I'd have no problem using my own bio, it's what you may buy/obatin elsewhere that I'd be worried about QC, and I'd jsut shorten my oil changes till i had a few UOA's under my belt and could see what it was doing.

plugma
18th March 2009, 11:44 PM
Hi Rick,

Someone on this forum once said "you have to drive a 300Tdi like you just stole it" That's pretty much how I drive mine. I use it regularly (every two weeks or so) in very soft sand along beaches and tracks. I also tow a 1400kg van behind for extended periods of time every few months. I am always going somewhere!! If I'm towing, my EGT is rarely below 500C and regularly gets up to 700C on hills. In short.... the poor ole 300Tdi gets a good hammering

I keep my service intervals at 10k for oil and filter and also change the fuel and air filter at that time. I do valve clearance every 20k (although it doesn't need it) and drain glycerin out of the rear trap and filter every 5k.

I don't use expensive synthetics, just shell Helix and at 230k it uses about 50ml of oil over the 10k service period.

For the first 5000 after an oil change, the oil is still transparrent on the dip stick. As it approaches 10000 it goes a little darker, but hardly leaves a stain between fingers.

There is absolutely no difference in economy or power, but the engine runs noticeably quieter on bio and the average head temperature is around 5C lower.

I know a large group of people that make biodiesel properly. The vast majority of them don't even bother to wash it (as I don't) and none of them have ever experienced any problems with injectors, pumps or seals.

The tone of my post was perhaps a little over the top, but it's really frustrating to see a continuous debate on this issue that seems to be driven largely by mis-information and fear.

Biodiesel is a truly renewable energy that produces bugger all greenhouse gas emissions. It is far less abrasive than fosil fuel diesel and when blended at rates of just 1%, sulphur can be eliminated completely. That says something about it's lubricity.

If we are going to debate the potential down side of biodiesel, a good place to start is the fact that it's production is now causing mass de-forrestation and displacement of traditional land use for food production, that is leading to all sorts of environmental and social issues.

I'll get back off my soap box now and remind myself that it's just a million or two litres of waste oil that I am helping to keep out of landfill every year.

Cheers
Maarten