Puma vacuum pump seal failure - questions

[briann]

After 10000km of excellent service I have found engine oil apparently leaking from the vacuum pump on my 2008 Defender. It is sprayed all over the place by the vacuum pump drive pulley. I assume it is the problem listed in Tech Service Bulletin LTB00177?
Rather than investigate myself I have had it trailered to a Sydney service centre for warranty repair. However I have the following questions for anyone who understands this unit (Made by Wabco):
1. Is the only purpose to provide vacuum assist to the brakes. If so why does it not exist on the Ford Transit variant?
2. How come engine oil is leaking from it? Why is engine oil there and how is it fed to the pump?
3. If I had been in the middle of the Simpson I guess I could have kept going (with much oily mess in the engine comprtment) given sufficient tp-up oil on hand. Is this correct?
4. How can I be sure (by looking at the installed pump) that the new unit with extra seal has been installed?
Thanks

[Xavie]

Sounds like the common drama.... if you were in the middle of the simpson and it did what mine did you'd want to ahve about 50 litres of oil on you to get to safety! And maybe someone under the hood just pouring it in as you drove! haha

[Blknight.aus]

After 10000km of excellent service I have found engine oil apparently leaking from the vacuum pump on my 2008 Defender. It is sprayed all over the place by the vacuum pump drive pulley. I assume it is the problem listed in Tech Service Bulletin LTB00177?
Rather than investigate myself I have had it trailered to a Sydney service centre for warranty repair. However I have the following questions for anyone who understands this unit (Made by Wabco):
1. Is the only purpose to provide vacuum assist to the brakes. If so why does it not exist on the Ford Transit variant?
2. How come engine oil is leaking from it? Why is engine oil there and how is it fed to the pump?
3. If I had been in the middle of the Simpson I guess I could have kept going (with much oily mess in the engine comprtment) given sufficient tp-up oil on hand. Is this correct?
4. How can I be sure (by looking at the installed pump) that the new unit with extra seal has been installed?
Thanks


no idea on 1 but when in a transit it might be fitted with an alternator that carries the vac pump like the TD5 and the isuzu does in the rover.

2 the engine oil is the lube for the pump without it the pump might work for about 2 minutes.

3 your correct you could have kept on going with top up oil, it wouldnt leak as much as you fear as it should just be pumping the oil back out the vent line back into the sump same as on the tdi/td5 alternator mounted vac pump.

4. no idea havent seen either of them in pieces.

[PAT303]

This is a very common fault,it seems to be one of the only faults on that engine.I would fit one under warranty and ask for the old one back and pull it apart to find why they do it.It is the only thing I've heard puma owners here complain about. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

so your not worried about the....

abrading brake lines on the fire wall
the abrading on some of the brake tanks
the "we need to replace your whole fuel system" thing
the "one of my injectors stuck open and hydrauliced the engine" (admitedly that fault so far has been limited to the transit vans)
the my front diff ate my engine sump.
the why doesnt the throttle work (havent heard much about that one in aus)

or....

are you only counting things that are physically bolted to the engine and not part of the vehicle as a whole?

If thats the case its early days for it yet and I anticipate that being of the same tech as the TD5 we're just waiting for it to start going west.

[PAT303]

I was talking about the engine.So you have had all those faults?.If they are no good you could always sell it and buy a toyota,there very very well made,except if you buy one that has a recall tagged on it which is likely seeing they have averaged one recall per month for the last decade or so. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

I dont (and wont) own a puma, these are just some of the common faults that come up on this forum and the uk ones.

the engine itself is last on the list of reasons why I wont own a puma powered deefer.

[TimNZ]

From what I've read they only fail in hot, dry, and dusty conditions............


Is this what you're after:


Technical Service Bulletin
No.LTB00177
09 October 2008

Subject/Concern: Brake Vacuum Pump Seal Oil Leak

Models:
Defender (LD) 2.4L Diesel Only
2.4L Diesel Only VIN-range: 7A732615 Onwards


Markets: All

Section: 206-07

Summary:
Oil leaking from the brake vacuum pump front oil seal.

Cause: Dirt ingress into the pump pulley seal resulting in damage to the lip and subsequent oil leakage (the new brake vacuum pump has a secondary dirt lip seal). Suggested Customer Concern Code - R31.

Action: Should a customer express concern, install a new brake vacuum pump (refer to Global Technical Reference GTR Workshop Manual, section 206-07 (70.15.19)).


Parts Required:
Description Part Number Quantity
Brake vacuum pump LR012183 1
Gasket LR004381 1

Labour Time:
Operation Description Operation No. Time
Install a new brake vacuum pump 70.15.19 0.7 hours

Repair/Claim Coding:
Causal Part: LR012183
ACES Condition Code: 42


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/165.jpg


Cheers,

Tim

[TimNZ]

Well my pump seal failed on Wednesday and is getting replaced today. If you have a TDCi "Puma" Defender I strongly reccommend printing off the TSB, taking it to your dealer, and insisting that they change the pump before it becomes an inconvinence to you.

Tim

[RMB3218]

I have had the vacumn pump replaced 3 times. One of many reasons I no longer own a Puma Fender.

[dullbird]

ours failed thats what let go hen we returned from our trip up north when we pulled onto the drive way.

[TimNZ]

I have had the vacumn pump replaced 3 times. One of many reasons I no longer own a Puma Fender.

The New Pump I've shown in my previous post has a different sealing arangement and is supposed to solve the problem. Time will tell I guess.

Tim

[Scallops]

I've done over 30,000km in mine - and mostly dry dusty conditions. Mine hasn't buggered itself yet but I was considering taking it in and demanding the new one but thought, would that be wise? :confused: Why change one that appears to be good for an unknown?

It's a little hard to know what to do. What do you think they would cost to replace out of warranty?

[dullbird]

judging what my disco one costs and thats a 12year onld car I would say a lot

[dmdigital]

You're echoing my thoughts Scallops. Should I get a replacement or not?

[TimNZ]

You're echoing my thoughts Scallops. Should I get a replacement or not?

For where you are Derek I'd seriously consider it. Although when it fails its an inconvinence where ever you are.

Just a thought, are they cheaper from Ford or LR????

Tim

[dmdigital]

For where you are Derek I'd seriously consider it. Although when it fails its an inconvinence where ever you are.

Just a thought, are they cheaper from Ford or LR????

Tim
Don't know time, there's only a Toyota/Nissan dealer in town. I guess I'll have to contact LR dealer and find out what to do for a warranty job.

[solmanic]

... Why change one that appears to be good for an unknown?

Sound logic, but we know that the new one is an "improved" design to the old one with an added dust seal so I will be angling to get mine swapped. I wouldn't look to have it swapped if they were just the same.

My theory is that by the time the Defender is out of warranty, I would like to have a 2010 spec machine with all the associated, improved parts that they have/are coming up with to fix the many unresolved design issues when the model was new in 2007. At least that's the plan.

[Scallops]

...I will be angling to get mine swapped....

Let me know how this progresses - I'll be using Southern Cross for any dealer stuff from now on and would like to kick off the relationship on a good note! :D

[Chucaro]

Yesterday I was in a LR dealer and they told me that the vacuum pump is a very common failure together with the turbo.:(
They have 2 new Pumas belong to local tradesmans which are working trucks in their back yard which cannot be repair due to lack of spares :eek:
I hope that the new Defe is not going to be like the old 4WD IVECO van, full of problems and no spares.

[briann]

For where you are Derek I'd seriously consider it. Although when it fails its an inconvinence where ever you are.

Just a thought, are they cheaper from Ford or LR????

Tim

Tim
My mate has a new Ford Transit. The vehicle does not appear to use the same vacuum pump used by LR.

[briann]

I have had the vacumn pump replaced 3 times. One of many reasons I no longer own a Puma Fender.

When did you last replace a vac pump? Do you know for sure whether it was the improved version?
I am unconvinced that dust ingress causes the problem. It is very hard to imagine significant dust getting at the seal given it's position.

[Scallops]

When did you last replace a vac pump? Do you know for sure whether it was the improved version?
I am unconvinced that dust ingress causes the problem. It is very hard to imagine significant dust getting at the seal given it's position.

I agree - mine has done 30 000km, with many of those km travelled in hot and very dusty conditions. No problems - which is why I'm going to stick with the one I have. Plenty of folks have had a new "improved" one installed just to find it packs up as well. I don't buy the "dust" thing.

[RMB3218]

When did you last replace a vac pump? Do you know for sure whether it was the improved version?
I am unconvinced that dust ingress causes the problem. It is very hard to imagine significant dust getting at the seal given it's position.
nov08

[stevencam]

Another one bites the dust, my puma has just clocked up 10,000 k's. I just parked in the shed and noticed oil stains, popped the bonnett and sure enough the vacuum pump has failed. bugger!:( How good is Land rovers supply of spares?

[Scallops]

A 10 000km Puma - wouldn't that have the modified vac pump fitted from new? If so, this would be another modified pump to fail. If not, just when did these pumps become standard build?

[billy57]

afternoon

getting a bet depressed here, had my new (ex demo) 110 for 14ks now and not svcd yet, as I was under impression landy's required 20k svc schedule, as indicated by the book with the vehicle. seems lra have changed there schedules so all landys now require 10k svc and if not done, my dealer svc staff say warranty may be void.

can't afford a svc yet, should I start panicing or hope the booklet schedule will hold up ?

or should I steer towards a 4x4 svc centre like mr in redcliffe ?

cheers

[dmdigital]

The Puma service for Australia is 10,000km or 6 months. I've also been told to ensure I get a dealer to carry out and stamp the book every 12 months for the anti corrosion warranty too. I got my 6 monthly done at the local mechanics the other week, just gave them the service schedule and got them to check it over. They used to be a LR service agent, when such a thing existed.

You first service is more of a check and tighten everything and change the oil.

[dullbird]

afternoon

getting a bet depressed here, had my new (ex demo) 110 for 14ks now and not svcd yet, as I was under impression landy's required 20k svc schedule, as indicated by the book with the vehicle. seems lra have changed there schedules so all landys now require 10k svc and if not done, my dealer svc staff say warranty may be void.

can't afford a svc yet, should I start panicing or hope the booklet schedule will hold up ?

or should I steer towards a 4x4 svc centre like mr in redcliffe ?

cheers

I dont think the first service is very costly I would get it in it is 12,000k if the car has been on tarmac but 10,000k for arduous work dusty conditions etc....i would get the car booked in as soon as you can.

It is very poor on landrovers behalf not to have changed this in the book by now as ours sayd 20,000 one of the reasons we brought the car and worked out the finance of the car based on that.....messed us up a bit when they changed it....If you would like the service shedule let me know I think I have it somewhere

[Blknight.aus]

LRA only supports the 10K service interval for warranty. if your log book services are outside that they wont play nice....

BUT

you can (and people have) take them on failure to disclose because of negligent documentation and when you press them on this providing your servicing is done by the book supplied with your vehicle then you will win the battle. This is made even easier if the dealer delivery stamp is in a book that still lists the 20 or 15K interval services.

They also try it on by using "Australian conditions are considered as "harsh" so you should be using the reduced service interval as reccomended in the supplied manual"

[dullbird]

LRA only supports the 10K service interval for warranty. if your log book services are outside that they wont play nice....

BUT

you can (and people have) take them on failure to disclose because of negligent documentation and when you press them on this providing your servicing is done by the book supplied with your vehicle then you will win the battle. This is made even easier if the dealer delivery stamp is in a book that still lists the 20 or 15K interval services.

They also try it on by using "Australian conditions are considered as "harsh" so you should be using the reduced service interval as recommended in the supplied manual"

thats very strange Dave...as we have it in writing from LRA that it is 12,000k...and ....10,000k if the car is doing arduous work!

the reason I knew this is we questioned the garage as to why they called our car in early for it telling us it was 10.....the reply was for the off road stuff, but the garage had in fact assumed we had the car off road when at that time it had not been off the tarmac...hence why we not only called but email LRA for clarification....

needless to say the garage recommended, 10 and we are going on there recommendation......but that was RECOMMEND not that it was policy like you seem to think.
If you have been told this by a garage about the puma recently then they must of changed things again as this was probably 8 months ago

[dmdigital]

Maintenance Check Sheet (From LR) attached. Note on page 2 conditions:
W = Driving in dusty and/or sandy conditions
X = Extended periods of driving in hot conditions over 35ºC
Y = Driving on rough and/or muddy roads and/or wading
Z = Towing a trailer or driving in mountainous conditions

I don't have an option as I need to get a service at least ever 6 months. Like wise I was informed by LR that the service schedule was only 10,000km under normal Australian conditions. Given the constant heat, dust and humidity up here you need to be more vigilant.

[dullbird]

yes I know they all say 10 and 5 I gave you the sheet:p.......but we have it in writing unless things have changed from LRA so if the car is only on tarmac. it should be 12

but they seem to change things like the wind So Billy57 I would be calling LRA and asking for clarification......it may well be 10 now but 8months ago they assured us it was 12, unless the car was working hard...offroad, worked or lived in arduous conditions which includes mud, Dust, extremes of heat etc Hope the info helps :)

which it probably doesn't as you have people saying different things :lol2:

[billy57]

thanks team

I will try and get it svc'd as soon as I can afford, 90% of my work is highway and country roads going to visit sites, the only off road is when I get there.

perhaps it was the wording of the svc chap that paniced me a bit, don't want to pay heaps per month for a nice vehicle and find that in the first 6 months I lose my warranty due to clocking up a few thousand k's in one week.

ave a nice weekend ya all

[Blknight.aus]

thats very strange Dave...as we have it in writing from LRA that it is 12,000k...and ....10,000k if the car is doing arduous work!

the reason I knew this is we questioned the garage as to why they called our car in early for it telling us it was 10.....the reply was for the off road stuff, but the garage had in fact assumed we had the car off road when at that time it had not been off the tarmac...hence why we not only called but email LRA for clarification....

needless to say the garage recommended, 10 and we are going on there recommendation......but that was RECOMMEND not that it was policy like you seem to think.
If you have been told this by a garage about the puma recently then they must of changed things again as this was probably 8 months ago


just going off what they told me when I was having some teething problems with big red and they were baulking at doing the work under warranty due to the fact that Id only been servicing at 15K intervals. It actually took me on the phone in the dealers that I bought big red from , faxing LRA a copy of the servicing schedule with the workshop manager next to me confreneced in telling them that it was in fact the proper book for my vehicle and yes it was their stamp on the initial service.

It might just be that the person I was talking to at LRA at the time was ill informed, an idiot, some beurocrat trying to save the company some money, a total toss pot or possibly all of the above. I probably should have expected it, I mean this is the same company that when you ring them and ask for some em con info for a late model series 2 2.25 petrol they start telling you that the v8 is a lot bigger than 2.25l, might I be mixing the size up with the diesel?

They may have also changed their tune since late 2004/early 05

[stevencam]

Can the updated vac pumps be indentified by part numbers, my defender has a october 08 build date.
There does seem to be confusion over service intervals, the service sticker suggests 10,000 km, the salesman told me 12,500km, when I booked in for the 10,000km service I was told "don't you mean 12,000 km". The service book specifies 20,000 km.

[dullbird]

Can the updated vac pumps be indentified by part numbers, my defender has a october 08 build date.
There does seem to be confusion over service intervals, the service sticker suggests 10,000 km, the salesman told me 12,500km, when I booked in for the 10,000km service I was told "don't you mean 12,000 km". The service book specifies 20,000 km.


Yes land rover haven't changed the book becasue i would suspect that europe and the uk are still doing it at 20,000k's and 12,000m (i think thats what uk is)