Where to put the winch vehicle?

[B92 8NW]

Two 4x4s go for a drive, one with a winch. Does the one with the winch go first or follow the car without the winch?

[Slunnie]

I think its better for the winched vehicle to go first.

If they need to progess the winch vehicle can pull itself through, and then pull the winchless through. If the winched vehicle gets stuck an the decision is to abort, then the winchless vehicle can pull it back out.

[moose]

Who's got the most experience? Where are you going? Are you parking parallel or diagonal at safeway?:D

[dmdigital]

Who's got the most experience? Where are you going? Are you parking parallel or diagonal at safeway?:D
:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[dullbird]

also which end has the best recovery points

but agree with Slunnie

[tony]

also which end has the best recovery points


Front

Depends how you set the car up with your recovery points...

T

[dullbird]

I wasn't asking a question tony....I was making a statement.

for example some people don't have bull bars but have a recovery hitch on the back would be silly to put a winch car up the front if there are no recovery points

and vis versa

[Blknight.aus]

depends on your purpose.

If you absolutely have to get from A-B then the winch vehicle goes in front and you just take pot luck that should the second vehicle need recovering forwards that you can find somewhere to get turned around to be able to use the winch. If running this way always winch through something you suspect is going to cause you trouble enough to require winching because if you break the winch by asking it to pull the now stuck vehicle through the troublesome section you are officially pooched, especially if youve already been winching to get there.

If you're traveling as recon or can backtrack as needed and have alternate routes (obviously this isnt the case if your planning a winchathon circut)

put the vehicle with the winch where it can be used.....

if the winch is front mounted put another vehicle in front of it, its absolutely pointless having the winch pointed where it cant be used. if the lead vehicle gets stuck you can recover it backwards this is very hard to do if the lead vehicle has the winch and is bogged up to the headlights.


thats generally how I set it up anyway

[B92 8NW]

thats generally how I set it up anyway

Me too, well in this case.

Thanks for all the ideas people:D.

[tony]

,,sorry Lue you didnt post the first post, that was a question...teach me to look closer

Dave I disagree the whinch vehicle should go in front...you dont have to turn it around to winch a vehicle behind you, and if you have any idia what your doing (and this pre supposes you do or you wouldnt be out there ) your not gonna get stuck up to the headlights anyway...

T

[Slunnie]

depends on your purpose.

If you absolutely have to get from A-B then the winch vehicle goes in front and you just take pot luck that should the second vehicle need recovering forwards that you can find somewhere to get turned around to be able to use the winch. If running this way always winch through something you suspect is going to cause you trouble enough to require winching because if you break the winch by asking it to pull the now stuck vehicle through the troublesome section you are officially pooched, especially if youve already been winching to get there.

If you're traveling as recon or can backtrack as needed and have alternate routes (obviously this isnt the case if your planning a winchathon circut)

put the vehicle with the winch where it can be used.....

if the winch is front mounted put another vehicle in front of it, its absolutely pointless having the winch pointed where it cant be used. if the lead vehicle gets stuck you can recover it backwards this is very hard to do if the lead vehicle has the winch and is bogged up to the headlights.


thats generally how I set it up anyway

You military people need to start buying snatch straps.... or are they called straps kinetic. :lol2:

[Tombie]

There is no wrong or right answer.....:D

Lead vehicle descending into a gully... I'd have the 2nd vehicle up top with a winch in case it had to be pulled backwards...

Or if it was being lowered down!

Ascending... I'd usually go winch first... But I carry enough recovery gear that I can get the rope far enough up a hill to recover from below anyhow...

Most often when I go out alone... well the winch is "right there"..... so doesnt matter....

Apart from a silly attempt at a mud hole I shouldnt have tried anyway, and sliding into a gully that was muddy from the rain I have never worried about the winch..

However, the gully recovery pointed out a strong point....

The vehicle(s) at the top of the hill didnt have winches.... But they were a great anchor point ;) If I'd been solo, I doubt even my Ground Anchor would have got me out of it.

[B92 8NW]

You military people need to start buying snatch straps.... or are they called straps kinetic. :lol2:

For this exercise you will require:

one times strap, kinetic.




ahh school days:angel:.

[Tombie]

Where would I put the winch?

Near Slunnies' Rig.... You just know he's gunna try something stupid and get stuck again :angel:

[Tombie]

For this exercise you will require:

one times strap, kinetic.




ahh school days:angel:.

For R&R you should locate...

one times snatch, preferably kinetic


:wasntme:

[B92 8NW]

For R&R you should locate...

one times snatch, preferably kinetic


:wasntme:

rofl:D

[Slunnie]

Where would I put the winch?

Near Slunnies' Rig.... You just know he's gunna try something stupid and get stuck again :angel:
Oh man! I was doing a mental tally of the last 12months damage from 4WDing after a mate put his Paj on its roof, wheels, roof, wheels yesterday... :no2:


Why do we do this again? :unsure:


hmmm, dunno. But we do. :banana:

[dmdigital]

The other solution is to carry a Tirfor in the other vehicle.







...or not get the car stuck on the bolards in the car parking.

[leeds]

I wasn't asking a question tony....I was making a statement.

for example some people don't have bull bars but have a recovery hitch on the back would be silly to put a winch car up the front if there are no recovery points

and vis versa

IF they do not have good recovery points front AND back they should not be out playing! Also tie down points are NOT recovery points.

With the 110 and the hybrid I can winch both forwards and backwards. (Well need to fit that new wire to the hybrid winch first). Don't you just love a smart ****? :p

Regards

Brendan

[Slunnie]

IF they do not have good recovery points front AND back they should not be out playing! Also tie down points are NOT recovery points.

With the 110 and the hybrid I can winch both forwards and backwards. (Well need to fit that new wire to the hybrid winch first). Don't you just love a smart ****? :p

Regards

Brendan
It is a real situation in not having a full deck of recovery points with many touring 4WD's, something that has been exacerbated now by bullbar manufacturers reluctance to build in recovery points.

[dmdigital]

It is a real situation in not having a full deck of recovery points with many touring 4WD's, something that has been exacerbated now by bullbar manufacturers reluctance to build in recovery points.
That's because the bar is attached to the crush cans and not just the chassis rails because of the airbags and the crumple zone and so forth - unless its a Defender in which case it doesn't have all of that :)

[Bushie]

- unless its a Defender in which case it doesn't have all of that :)

Which as about the most capable off road vehicle (off the shelf) has a manufacturer that doesn't attach recovery points either :twisted::twisted:


Martyn

[dullbird]

IF they do not have good recovery points front AND back they should not be out playing! Also tie down points are NOT recovery points.

With the 110 and the hybrid I can winch both forwards and backwards. (Well need to fit that new wire to the hybrid winch first). Don't you just love a smart ****? :p

Regards

Brendan

Yes but brendan thats not for you to decide is it;)....
I have a good recovery point at the back and not so good ones on the front due to the bar I have so I suppose I should never go out again!:D

I just travel in the middle of two cars.

but there are a lot of people that dont have good on both ends...I know I would rather be recovered from what I deem to be the strongest.

And not everyone can afford a winch let alone one on either end;)

[George130]

...or not get the car stuck on the bolards in the car parking.


:o
It was a servo and it only took a 20 point turn to get it off again:D.
Then to cap it of the tanker that helped to block me left as I got free:angel:.

[Slunnie]

That's because the bar is attached to the crush cans and not just the chassis rails because of the airbags and the crumple zone and so forth - unless its a Defender in which case it doesn't have all of that :)
Apparently its due to people using really silly recovery techniques and then coming back at the bar manufacturers and blaming them for their own stupidity when things go wrong. The crush cans dont affect the vehicles ability to be recovered from a bullbar at all, the D2 ARB bar can be used for recovery, and even likewise the LC200 which is meant to have really soft crush cans can be recovered from the bullbar (winching etc) but the highlift/tow/snatch points have now been removed.

Hows this for interesting. Because the LC200 has such soft crush cans ARB manufactured a crush can for the bar that was soft in compression, but to prevent it from stretching when winching they ran a cable through the middle of it which was then pinned to the chassis a little further in.

[leeds]

Yes but brendan thats not for you to decide is it;)....
I have a good recovery point at the back and not so good ones on the front due to the bar I have so I suppose I should never go out again!:D

I just travel in the middle of two cars.

but there are a lot of people that dont have good on both ends...I know I would rather be recovered from what I deem to be the strongest.

And not everyone can afford a winch let alone one on either end;)


Well Lou, if you turned up at my local club events with unsuitable recovery points then you would not be allowed to play. Inadequate recovery points are an injury causing incident about to happen.

On one occasion I had to travel over 20 miles to get in front of a vehicle to recover it as recovering it backwards was not an option.

The cost of decent recoveries points is minimal in comparison to the failure of an inadequate recovery point.

Regards


Leeds

[dullbird]

Well Lou, if you turned up at my local club events with unsuitable recovery points then you would not be allowed to play. Inadequate recovery points are an injury causing incident about to happen.

On one occasion I had to travel over 20 miles to get in front of a vehicle to recover it as recovering it backwards was not an option.

The cost of decent recoveries points is minimal in comparison to the failure of an inadequate recovery point.

Regards


Leeds

thats nice brendan but I'm not going to be....as you live in the uk:)

Ok so I have a bar which has what a mate calls to points that you can put a shackle on too that he reckons are to thin! so he said I wouldn't recover from them,
So I purchased some recovery points for my disco you know the ones 10mm thick steel that attach on to your chassi rail.....I put them on they are not long enough they don't drop down far enough to stop a strap interfering with the base of the Bar so the only way I could really be recovered on them is if i was being snatch up a hill as to pull me on the same level could possibly force the bar upwards and into the car.....which is probably not very safe either

So what would you recommend oh wise and noble one. And lets not go for all the expensive options hey because unlike you I don't have thousands to spend on my car:)

[tony]

So what would you recommend oh wise and noble one. And lets not go for all the expensive options hey because unlike you I don't have thousands to spend on my car:)


Lue you dont have to spend a fortune to get good recovery points, on the front

you just gotta know what your doing, and where to get the bits from without going to places like ARB...

T

[Tombie]

Apparently its due to people using really silly recovery techniques and then coming back at the bar manufacturers and blaming them for their own stupidity when things go wrong. The crush cans dont affect the vehicles ability to be recovered from a bullbar at all, the D2 ARB bar can be used for recovery, and even likewise the LC200 which is meant to have really soft crush cans can be recovered from the bullbar (winching etc) but the highlift/tow/snatch points have now been removed.

Hows this for interesting. Because the LC200 has such soft crush cans ARB manufactured a crush can for the bar that was soft in compression, but to prevent it from stretching when winching they ran a cable through the middle of it which was then pinned to the chassis a little further in.

You cannot however, recover from a TJM bar.... The Crush cans WILL dislocate!

[leeds]

If the recovery points are Jate Rings (http://www.famousfour.co.uk/foursport/shackle.php) or fabricated equivalents or similar then they are extremely strong and good recovery points.

Next point is the bumper/roo bar arrangement interfering with the recovery strap. The principle component of force fully in the direction of the recovery strap. If the strap is deflected by the bumper there will be a minor component of force in the vertical plane away from strap in towards the bumper. As the angle of deflection increases then the minor component of force in towards bumper increases.

Would your bumper/roo bar arrangement be capable of lifting the front end of the disco by using a hi lift jack? If yes then I can not see a problem with the bumper. If no, then should that bumper be on your vehicle?

Regards

Brendan

[mcrover]

thats nice brendan but I'm not going to be....as you live in the uk:)

Ok so I have a bar which has what a mate calls to points that you can put a shackle on too that he reckons are to thin! so he said I wouldn't recover from them,
So I purchased some recovery points for my disco you know the ones 10mm thick steel that attach on to your chassi rail.....I put them on they are not long enough they don't drop down far enough to stop a strap interfering with the base of the Bar so the only way I could really be recovered on them is if i was being snatch up a hill as to pull me on the same level could possibly force the bar upwards and into the car.....which is probably not very safe either

So what would you recommend oh wise and noble one. And lets not go for all the expensive options hey because unlike you I don't have thousands to spend on my car:)

Ok DB, here we have a quandry, if your car is backed hard up against a hard surface such as rock which cant be dug with anything in the back of your car to get to your rear point and you will be required to pull the weight of the vehicle to recover it from it's possition, what would you do?

This has happened in Gembrook on a trip I wasnt on but freinds of mine were with a D2 with no recovery points.

They destroyed the front bumper and tiedowns trying to extract it from what it slipped slowly into due to not being able to get traction on the shinny wet rocks on AT tyres.

They ended up wrapping a tree trunk protector around the chassis rails and using that as a bridle to connect the snatchy to and pulled it out.

That D2 now has a bull bar and adaquate recovery points.

There was not a scratch on the vehicle other than what was caused by the recovery.

Sooooooooo....

Have you thought of making a bridle type set up that can be hooked on somewhere under the car, Ive seen photo's on here somewhere of a cable type one on a D1 with standard front bar.

That would be cheap and strong and wouldnt interfere with anything else.

You could also get another plate welded up against the one you have to make it a bit beefier but this also depends on design etc weather that is possible :D


If the recovery points are Jate Rings (http://www.famousfour.co.uk/foursport/shackle.php) or fabricated equivalents or similar then they are extremely strong and good recovery points.

Next point is the bumper/roo bar arrangement interfering with the recovery strap. The principle component of force fully in the direction of the recovery strap. If the strap is deflected by the bumper there will be a minor component of force in the vertical plane away from strap in towards the bumper. As the angle of deflection increases then the minor component of force in towards bumper increases.

Would your bumper/roo bar arrangement be capable of lifting the front end of the disco by using a hi lift jack? If yes then I can not see a problem with the bumper. If no, then should that bumper be on your vehicle?

Regards

Brendan

I dpont like hookjing up to Jate rings that are bolted to the bull bar, they are normally only rated for a straight pull to about 500 to 600kgs and even with 2 of them a snatch recovery will more than likely exceed that.

Hooks bolted on to the chassis or 10mm plate and reated bow shackles like what I have on mine (built into the bar mounts) are in my opinion better suited to snatch recoverys.

If were talking a normal line pull, not a snatch then near on anything would be adaquate as long as it is stronger than the tie down points.

[dullbird]

If the recovery points are Jate Rings (http://www.famousfour.co.uk/foursport/shackle.php) or fabricated equivalents or similar then they are extremely strong and good recovery points.

Next point is the bumper/roo bar arrangement interfering with the recovery strap. The principle component of force fully in the direction of the recovery strap. If the strap is deflected by the bumper there will be a minor component of force in the vertical plane away from strap in towards the bumper. As the angle of deflection increases then the minor component of force in towards bumper increases.



Would your bumper/roo bar arrangement be capable of lifting the front end of the disco by using a hi lift jack? If yes then I can not see a problem with the bumper. If no, then should that bumper be on your vehicle?

Regards

Brendan


Possibly I'm not sure...have never tried but it is a smart bar!
its an ADR compliant bullbar brendan I see no reason why it shouldn't be on the vehicle even if a hi lift wont lift it....not eveyone is confident to use a hi lift and not everyone carrys one.

just out of interest where are you suggesting I put the jate rings?

for anyone that doesn't know what the bar looks like

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/04/41.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/985.jpg

[dullbird]

Ok DB, here we have a quandry, if your car is backed hard up against a hard surface such as rock which cant be dug with anything in the back of your car to get to your rear point and you will be required to pull the weight of the vehicle to recover it from it's possition, what would you do? Well I couldn't really answer that unless I was in the situation but I bet we would find away But remember I never said I didn't have recovery points in the front I just said someone suggested not to use them as they looked thin! if push came to shove I would bridle off the two to spread the load and use them;)
This has happened in Gembrook on a trip I wasnt on but freinds of mine were with a D2 with no recovery points.

They destroyed the front bumper and tiedowns trying to extract it from what it slipped slowly into due to not being able to get traction on the shinny wet rocks on AT tyres.

They ended up wrapping a tree trunk protector around the chassis rails and using that as a bridle to connect the snatchy to and pulled it out.

That D2 now has a bull bar and adaquate recovery points.

There was not a scratch on the vehicle other than what was caused by the recovery.

Sooooooooo....



Have you thought of making a bridle type set up that can be hooked on somewhere under the car, Ive seen photo's on here somewhere of a cable type one on a D1 with standard front bar.
i think its the bar that gets in the way to be honest but I would always bridle if I had to recovery points on the front anyway or somewhere to attach as its less stress on the chassi
That would be cheap and strong and wouldnt interfere with anything else.



You could also get another plate welded up against the one you have to make it a bit beefier but this also depends on design etc weather that is possible :D
Phil did look at them and the way they were made we are not sure this is possible, I did how ever contact the guy I brought them off to let him know he said he might maje some longer ones to trial....he never got back to me


I dpont like hookjing up to Jate rings that are bolted to the bull bar, they are normally only rated for a straight pull to about 500 to 600kgs and even with 2 of them a snatch recovery will more than likely exceed that.

Hooks bolted on to the chassis or 10mm plate and reated bow shackles like what I have on mine (built into the bar mounts) are in my opinion better suited to snatch recoverys.


If were talking a normal line pull, not a snatch then near on anything would be adaquate as long as it is stronger than the tie down points.
the bars eyes would be stronger than tie downs for sure I reckon.

[mcrover]

DB, those 2 straight bars with the holes in them which are well below the bottom of the bar, are they the recovery points your taling about, iff so, they are plenty long enough and depending on how think they are, from the second photo and not knowing any more than that I would think they would be plenty good enough as long as you didnt do too much (or to violent) sideways recovery.

I dont think that it would come close to hitting the bar with a 3m sling as a bridle :D

[leeds]

I have no idea what a smart bar or an ADR compliant bullbar is.

Having a look at the photo I would be surprised if your bumper would cause much proplem for front recovery.

The recovery point and front bumper on our Disco is like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/982.jpg


The front recovery points are bolted to chassis and welded to the bumper like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/437.jpg


Use two shackles with the bridle passed through loop in rope/strap spreads the load and reduces chance of a shackle flying.

I think there is confusion/misunderstanding over the term Jate ring. Jate rings are fasten to chassis legs where lash down eyes go. They are not mounted on bumpers and the strength is far in excess of 5-600 kg

In the photo below on the left is a lash down eye on the right is a JATE ring

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/983.jpg

The strength of the Jate ring depends on twice the shear strength of the 10 mm bolt. Assuming strength is on screwed section then strength is

Grade 8.8 7.5 tonnes
Grade 10.9 10.5 tonnes
Grade 12.9 12.5 tonnes

This is per Jate ring!

One problem with Jate rings is that unless you prep a bridle first then it can be a bit messy attaching the recovery gear when you are stuck in mud. One advantage for bumper recovery points!

Regards


Brendan

[dullbird]

DB, those 2 straight bars with the holes in them which are well below the bottom of the bar, are they the recovery points your taling about, iff so, they are plenty long enough and depending on how think they are, from the second photo and not knowing any more than that I would think they would be plenty good enough as long as you didnt do too much (or to violent) sideways recovery.

I dont think that it would come close to hitting the bar with a 3m sling as a bridle :D

no problem with the length of these it was the strength! the problem with the length is the recovery points in which I brought to use instead of these, they are what don't hang down far enough.

bendan I can't weld my'n the bullbar in plastic with a metal internal sketelon. so the recovery loops I have are all part of that metal skelton.......do you hsave pictures of where you are talking about the jate rings attaching to the chassi as I don't understand where you are talking about....not that it really matters as I would imagine tehy would havng down as far as the recovery points I already and no doubt again would caus the strap to interfer with the bar...the base of my bar does hang down quite low. I'am looking to chage the bar as soon as my money allows which will be a while as its not got a great approach angle

[Slunnie]

The front recovery points are bolted to chassis and welded to the bumper like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/437.jpg
Regards


Brendan
Now that is a good point because it shares the load through the bolts evenly.

[Sprint]

where the which vehicle travels in the group is allways under the influence of Mr Murphy...... when things go pear shaped, it's a good bet the winch vehicle will either be unable to help or have to turn around!

[weeds]

where the which vehicle travels in the group is allways under the influence of Mr Murphy...... when things go pear shaped, it's a good bet the winch vehicle will either be unable to help or have to turn around!

yep murphys law............

[leeds]

Hi Lou,
I persnally do not have any photos of Jate rings on a Discovery. Did a google search and found this SITE (http://www.landroverstuff.com/jaterings.htm) which shows Jate rings on a discovery 2

Regards


Brendan