ONE FOR J.C. & Blknight???

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

OK, back from a weeks jaunt down in WA's southwest, but had a few issues on the trip.
Had new boots fitted to the Classic but turned out it wasnt the problem.
Above speeds of 80k's, the steering would go "hard" at centre and needed some elbow to get it to turn. By jiggling it in the direction I wanted to steer, it would then loosen up but felt really bad, almost like it had bad alignment.

I had an alignment done at Busselton and the figures fron the machine were odd to say the least!
The guy who did the alignment suggested that the pump or steering box would be the most likely cause, but didnt have the test equipment to hook it up and then suggested that a bent spindle might be a cause also.

The steering does have a slack spot at almost full lock each side which when you are stopped particularly after reversing out of a driveway etc, you can get about 1/8 of a turn of slack in the steering, but on centre its not too bad although a bit to much like that in a Falcon for my liking (what Ford call the 'sneeze' factor).

Can you have a look at the pdf of the alignment figures and give me an idea what the most likely cause could be before I go off and change P/S pump and box???????
All alignment and front end guru's please feel free to add your relevant knowledge!!!

[mcrover]

Sounds very much like what I had with my Disco when I hit a stump in ruts up in Toolangi a few years ago.

Busted something in the box which is now in the shed in bits, apparently no good anymore for rebuild but I havnt had a good look to see whats wrong.

At the time it happened I had no workshop and got Jamie to do the job for me.

All I remember was that it was fairly un-nerving having a tight spot every time I changed direction where it felt like it was going to lock.

[Slunnie]

Sounds very much like what I had with my Disco when I hit a stump in ruts up in Toolangi a few years ago.

Busted something in the box which is now in the shed in bits, apparently no good anymore for rebuild but I havnt had a good look to see whats wrong.

At the time it happened I had no workshop and got Jamie to do the job for me.

All I remember was that it was fairly un-nerving having a tight spot every time I changed direction where it felt like it was going to lock.
Oi! The question was only for JC or Blacknight! :mad:


:lol2:

[mcrover]

Oi! The question was only for JC or Blacknight! :mad:


:lol2:

Thats ok 50/50, I didnt give an answer, just that it reminded me of some of the damage Ive done to my Disco :D:twisted:

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Yeah I know, particularly when you got the kids in the car, 400kg of gear in the trailer and a bend coming up at 110km/h!! but then at slower speeds it was fine most of the time and when it was stiff it didnt have the resistance.

Was just sitting here pondering and thought about the fact I have moved the P/S reservoir back to fit the second battery, maybe I have possibly kinked the rubber hose from the box to the reservoir that runs under the radiator.

Might duck out and have a quick look.......

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Oi! The question was only for JC or Blacknight! :mad:


:lol2:

Dont mind hearing other issues as I may be able to put 2+2 together!!!


All alignment and front end guru's please feel free to add your relevant knowledge!!! :):)

[lokka]

Whats ya steering dampner like ive had this prob before and it was a small dent in the mono tube dampner ...

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Ok as far as I know. I had it off not that too long ago as the bushes were a bit hard. Hasnt had enough hard work to dent it and it isnt leaking. Being a Bilstein, gas pressure was no different to when I bought it, but I have that as a thing to try on my list depending on what comes back!!!

While I'm waiting for the answer to hit me in the head like a lightning bolt, check the link to my photobucket for a few picks of the trip!!
http://s389.photobucket.com/albums/oo332/lovemyrangie/busselton%20Jan%202009/

[justinc]

Remove the steering column between the box and the upper column and check the unis. I have a similar problem with mine after wet weather. I spray them with CRC and all is OK again for a while at least. Just another job I haven't got round to doing:(
The slack spot at full lock is normal, the geometry inside the box causes this.
JC

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Hmmmmm, I looked at this quickly. One thing I did notice was the rubber coupler has a pin kind of thing coming through it into the lower joint flange which has without measuring it, about 1-2mm of slop in it. I sprayed it with Inox.
These available as a spare without the column???:p:p:p If not, can take it out, give it to one of my machinists at work and get them to strip and metalspray and machine it back to where it should be or cut some teflon bushes in!!!

[justinc]

Hmmmmm, I looked at this quickly. One thing I did notice was the rubber coupler has a pin kind of thing coming through it into the lower joint flange which has without measuring it, about 1-2mm of slop in it. I sprayed it with Inox.
These available as a spare without the column???:p:p:p If not, can take it out, give it to one of my machinists at work and get them to strip and metalspray and machine it back to where it should be or cut some teflon bushes in!!!

I was talking about the actual universal joints in the lower shaft. The only way to check them is by removing the shaft and I bet that at least one of them has a siezed joint in one direction. You can buy them individually but a whole lower column is probably the best option for the vehicles age. Not as expensive as they once were. Mine has been on for about 4 or 5 years now and finally needs replacing again, due to all the pounding on horrific roads when touring and lots of mud etc back home here.



JC

[BigJon]

Remove the steering column between the box and the upper column and check the unis. I have a similar problem with mine after wet weather. I spray them with CRC and all is OK again for a while at least. Just another job I haven't got round to doing:(
The slack spot at full lock is normal, the geometry inside the box causes this.
JC

About a year ago I had to replace mine when it had that fault. Very unpleasant to drive.

[Blknight.aus]

ok for starters I dont like that your king pin angles are different that sort of hints to me that you have some bending somewhere you shouldnt or you have a badly setup set of swivel bearings.

you might be looking at a stepped pin that has been re tensioned and that is binding. But.. lets do first things first.

Im pretty sure its not the damper but disconnect it anyway and give it a range of motion/resistance test

jack the whole front of the axle up and try steering with the damper off and the engine off. (put it on stands) if it feels stiff now you have problems.

drop the tie rod ends off and steer each individual wheel by hand as well as though you were doing a rim rock check as per checking the wheel bearings (push pull at the top and bottom of the wheel) have someone watch the motion of the outer swivel housing on the inner part and if it moves then your swivels arent happy.

again with everything off retry the steering if its still tight at the steering wheel then its your steering box.

ok now that we've done the fault finding based on the general description of the fault and the alignment

I think its your powersteering box on the way out and in need of a rebuild or at least a re-adjustment, this is pointed to by the fact that its tight in the middle and loose on the edges and that wiggling in the direction you want to go loosens it up.

I dont think its swivs usually the swivs being on the way will also bring in some occasional wobble that feels like a wheel out of balance but isn't (more pronounced when the off swiv is to the inside of the turn) It will also bring an elusive hard to pin down clunk that you sort of think is coming back through the steering or maybe the chassis.

It could be the pump but Im thinking not because it wouldnt only happen on the straight aheads it would also be on the outskirts of the turns and youd really know about it when really cranking the steering from lock to lock at low speed.

It could also be the steering column itself with a binding UJ but that has a different feel to it and usually repeats at the same rotational position of the steering wheel.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I was talking about the actual universal joints in the lower shaft. The only way to check them is by removing the shaft and I bet that at least one of them has a siezed joint in one direction. You can buy them individually but a whole lower column is probably the best option for the vehicles age. Not as expensive as they once were. Mine has been on for about 4 or 5 years now and finally needs replacing again, due to all the pounding on horrific roads when touring and lots of mud etc back home here.



JC

Is that the NRC7704??

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

ok for starters I dont like that your king pin angles are different that sort of hints to me that you have some bending somewhere you shouldnt or you have a badly setup set of swivel bearings.

you might be looking at a stepped pin that has been re tensioned and that is binding. But.. lets do first things first.

Im pretty sure its not the damper but disconnect it anyway and give it a range of motion/resistance test

jack the whole front of the axle up and try steering with the damper off and the engine off. (put it on stands) if it feels stiff now you have problems.

drop the tie rod ends off and steer each individual wheel by hand as well as though you were doing a rim rock check as per checking the wheel bearings (push pull at the top and bottom of the wheel) have someone watch the motion of the outer swivel housing on the inner part and if it moves then your swivels arent happy.

again with everything off retry the steering if its still tight at the steering wheel then its your steering box.

ok now that we've done the fault finding based on the general description of the fault and the alignment

I think its your powersteering box on the way out and in need of a rebuild or at least a re-adjustment, this is pointed to by the fact that its tight in the middle and loose on the edges and that wiggling in the direction you want to go loosens it up.

I dont think its swivs usually the swivs being on the way will also bring in some occasional wobble that feels like a wheel out of balance but isn't (more pronounced when the off swiv is to the inside of the turn) It will also bring an elusive hard to pin down clunk that you sort of think is coming back through the steering or maybe the chassis.

It could be the pump but Im thinking not because it wouldnt only happen on the straight aheads it would also be on the outskirts of the turns and youd really know about it when really cranking the steering from lock to lock at low speed.

It could also be the steering column itself with a binding UJ but that has a different feel to it and usually repeats at the same rotational position of the steering wheel.

Thanks Dave. The guy mentioned the king pins and I told him they are a bush on top, not a bearing and he disagreed with me.... after he said it was the kingpins....;);)
But, one thing that comes and goes on the RHS is the wheel bearing comes loose, like the locktab backs off just a tad somehow. yet when you check it, the locktab is fine but it can take a tweak to tighten it. Wondering if the extra angle is taking its toll on the bearing spacer ring and causing it to spin a bit........? Might put a crush washer behind it on the weekend or mod up with a locktab.
Spindle shows no signs of wear from spun bearing etc...

He stated that the spindle could be bent, but 4 degrees would give me a spindle in 2 pieces along with a dud axle!

I might start with the lower uni first, get Rovertech to do a box & pump test and look at the swivels while its up...
Hopefully lowest cost wins!!!!

[Blknight.aus]

the spindle I was talking about was the one thats inside the bush or the one that the swivel bearing rides on. a worn bush on a worn pin thats been reset to give the correct preload can cause the change in angle that youve gotten. It might just be a whole heap of cumulative wear and damage thats stacked up to cause it.

heres hoping its just a failing swivel bearing/bush and the steering column UJ but as your describing it it just doesnt quite fit to me Ive had the Uj's fail before and they wind up tight at the same spot as you turn the steering wheel.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

the spindle I was talking about was the one thats inside the bush or the one that the swivel bearing rides on. a worn bush on a worn pin thats been reset to give the correct preload can cause the change in angle that youve gotten. It might just be a whole heap of cumulative wear and damage thats stacked up to cause it.

heres hoping its just a failing swivel bearing/bush and the steering column UJ but as your describing it it just doesnt quite fit to me Ive had the Uj's fail before and they wind up tight at the same spot as you turn the steering wheel.

By spindle, I meant the stub axle. He thinks it may be bent but then it would be rubbing on the axle with 4 degrees extra camber!

I have had my doubts about the swivel bushes as a while ago I had scrubbing inside the RH tyre, but this went away with new wheel bearings.

Cheers

Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

a bent stub axle doesnt have to rub the axle, if its bent at the flange the CV will just realign itself as best it can doesnt happen often but Ive seen it.

its on the same grade as bending the flange on the front of a tcase....

It all looks great till you put it on a lathe.