Disco 300TDi dyno'd and ? overfuelling

[omvanders]

I've just spent an hour or so reading some great info - especially to my less than informed mind re things mechanical - on the Thermoguard.com.au site about egt's, diesels in general, the effects of turbocharging, intercoolers, etc.

Given that I don't have an egt gauge and probably won't be getting one soon because of budget priorities I'm still keen to know what could be happening with my '99 300 TDi under full load.

Last week I had it dynotuned (following the fitting of an upgraged intercooler by TRS, resulting in an increase from 50 to 70kW at the wheels. Needless to say I'm pretty happy with the improved result at the touch of the pedal.

However I need to check out one thing... when ascending a long steep incline (Willunga Hill, SA) I noticed that if I kept the pedal flat to the floor in order to maintain 100km/hr (prior to dyno 80km/hr was the max possible) it was billowing out copious amounts of black smoke, indicating overfuelling if I'm not mistaken and corresponding high egt temps.

I noticed that the black smoke disappeared from the rear view mirror if I backed off just a little on the pedal. Is this normal. Should I be taking it back to be retuned at a slightly leaner setting, or can I safely leave it as is, knowing that overfuelling can simply be corrected by easing off out of the 'kickback' zone of the pedal.

Comments from the mechanically minded and very helpful people of this forum would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Tank]

When you backed off the pedal "a little" did you maintain your speed, if you did the reason it was blowing black smoke is because you had the pedal to the metal when you didn't need to. Use the torque of your engine, max. revs is rarely the optimal rev range. If your vehicle is pulling 100klm/hr up a steep hill with, say, 7/8ths throttle, putting the pedal down another 1/8th is only going to increase fuel use without any benefit, Regards Frank.

[omvanders]

Yes I think you're right Tank. I don't think there was any discernible benefit in having the pedal that bit more depressed. Having said that I was a bit distracted by the engine watchdog temperature alarm sounding off (got up to 108 degrees before cresting the hill) so I'm a bit sketchy on the detail.

Also shortly after seeing the very thick black smoke that was virtually blanketting any view of cars behind I backed right off, not just to let other drivers see where they were going but also to ease up on the load put on the engine.

[justinc]

Without an EGT gauge you are playing with fire. The degree of smoke you are talking about will equate IMHO to some pretty excessive EGT's!!(Possibly over 800deg:eek: if driven like that up long hills.) The fact that the engine alarm went off also means that the heat generated under these circumstances couldn't be lost through the cooling system effectively. As Tank just said, until an EGT gauge is fitted, don't push it that hard or you will risk overheating pistons, damaging exhaust turbines etc etc. One would hope it was set up on the dyno with a Pyrometer, It probably was If TRS did it, they are pretty used to tuning performance vehicles and know about these sort of issues.

JC

[mcrover]

Yes I think you're right Tank. I don't think there was any discernible benefit in having the pedal that bit more depressed. Having said that I was a bit distracted by the engine watchdog temperature alarm sounding off (got up to 108 degrees before cresting the hill) so I'm a bit sketchy on the detail.

Also shortly after seeing the very thick black smoke that was virtually blanketting any view of cars behind I backed right off, not just to let other drivers see where they were going but also to ease up on the load put on the engine.


Without an EGT gauge you are playing with fire. The degree of smoke you are talking about will equate IMHO to some pretty excessive EGT's!!(Possibly over 800deg:eek: if driven like that up long hills.) The fact that the engine alarm went off also means that the heat generated under these circumstances couldn't be lost through the cooling system effectively. As Tank just said, until an EGT gauge is fitted, don't push it that hard or you will risk overheating pistons, damaging exhaust turbines etc etc. One would hope it was set up on the dyno with a Pyrometer, It probably was If TRS did it, they are pretty used to tuning performance vehicles and know about these sort of issues.

JC

What is going on here?

On max acceleration and load it will pump out the smoke as the engine revs are not matching the fuel the injector pump is putting in as you have your foot down saying you want to go faster but gravity/load wont allow you to go faster thus enginf revs wont increase.

Your comment on 108Deg? is that Farenheight? JC should be able to say weather that is ok or not, I have no idea, apparently higu 600's c and early 700's is ok but not much higher.

[Psimpson7]

I take it the 108 was Degrees C and the water temperature..

[mcrover]

I take it the 108 was Degrees C and the water temperature..

Ok that would make more sense.;)

[mcrover]

The thing is that if you have the money to Dyno it and you have the money to put a bling IC into it then why didnt you fit the EGT guage first and then tweak the pump and then go through fitting a new IC etc.

There are a lot of go faster tweaks that can be done before spending big money and if you just go to the biggest most expensive first then you are limiting what you may get out of it and how much you can spend on other things.

[mcrover]

I've just spent an hour or so reading some great info - especially to my less than informed mind re things mechanical - on the Thermoguard.com.au site about egt's, diesels in general, the effects of turbocharging, intercoolers, etc.

Given that I don't have an egt gauge and probably won't be getting one soon because of budget priorities I'm still keen to know what could be happening with my '99 300 TDi under full load.

Last week I had it dynotuned (following the fitting of an upgraged intercooler by TRS, resulting in an increase from 50 to 70kW at the wheels. Needless to say I'm pretty happy with the improved result at the touch of the pedal.

However I need to check out one thing... when ascending a long steep incline (Willunga Hill, SA) I noticed that if I kept the pedal flat to the floor in order to maintain 100km/hr (prior to dyno 80km/hr was the max possible) it was billowing out copious amounts of black smoke, indicating overfuelling if I'm not mistaken and corresponding high egt temps.

I noticed that the black smoke disappeared from the rear view mirror if I backed off just a little on the pedal. Is this normal. Should I be taking it back to be retuned at a slightly leaner setting, or can I safely leave it as is, knowing that overfuelling can simply be corrected by easing off out of the 'kickback' zone of the pedal.

Comments from the mechanically minded and very helpful people of this forum would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.


Would you be able to scan the Dyno read out or post it up as this sounds like a GREAT mod that we all shouild do to get 20 extra KW?

How much was the ne IC and did you change all the pipe work etc to silicon as well?

[omvanders]

McRover I got the intercooler fitted as part of the deal when buying the car off of TRS a month ago. They referred me on to another mob in Blackwood for the tuning, as they don't do it on-site. It seems to me - unknowing as I am about such things - that your comments are on the money about gravity versus engine revs.

I can scan the graphic readout if you like... will get to that later this morning on another computer.

Psimpson7 's right that it's 108 degrees C, but the reading is from a TM-2 sensor mounted to the front of the head, behind and below the thermostat. In normal driving it sits between 78-88 C.

Justincs comments confirm for me that I don't want to go into that red-zone territory again with the vehicle if I can avoid it, and what's more I will get an egt gauge fitted in due course.

[omvanders]

Would you be able to scan the Dyno read out or post it up as this sounds like a GREAT mod that we all shouild do to get 20 extra KW?

How much was the new IC and did you change all the pipe work etc to silicon as well?

I'm figuring the IC fitted would normally be in the $600 range, but you'd need to confirm that with TRS... I couldn't quite swing the new silicon hoses as part of the deal when buying the vehicle, but after all I've read on this forum will be getting some sooner rather than later.

[omvanders]

McRover, here's the dyno readout as discussed.

BTW I rang Blackwood Dyno - they don't use a pyrometer. They're also very happy to dyno it again if there's a perceived problem with it. That's what I'm trying to determine hey!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/878.jpg

[mcrover]

McRover, here's the dyno readout as discussed.

BTW I rang Blackwood Dyno - they don't use a pyrometer. They're also very happy to dyno it again if there's a perceived problem with it. That's what I'm trying to determine hey!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/878.jpg

Hey thats a huge improovement,:D was that just the intercooler or was that tweaked as well?

[omvanders]

McRover when you say "was that tweaked as well?", in my ignorance I don't know what you're referring to.

The IC was fitted when I took delivery. With the new IC but nothing else altered by TRS as far as I know, the dyno shows 50kW. After the 'tweaking' of the dyno-tune it improved to 70kW. Needless to say I have to sink the boot in a lot less to get her moving, and for all intents and purposes the dyno seems to have done the motor a huge favour, providing of course I'm not closer to the brink of trouble when it comes to egt issues?

[mcrover]

So they tuned (tweaked) the injector pump then?

Thats what im asking, Im pretty sure from what you have written that they have.

If the intercooler was already fitted when they did the initial run, then this says to me that the intercooler probably had little to do with the increased power and it was the tuning of the pump that did the major power increase.

Im just trying to find out if it would be really worth fitting a bigger/better intercooler or just tweaking it.

Thanks for that though, it does show that the tuning of the pump gives huge results.

[omvanders]

Yes from what I've read elsewhere the fitting of an intercooler alone only gives a minimal benefit, but when combined with the tweaking of the injector pump the real benefits are realised.

[justinc]

McRover, here's the dyno readout as discussed.

BTW I rang Blackwood Dyno - they don't use a pyrometer. They're also very happy to dyno it again if there's a perceived problem with it. That's what I'm trying to determine hey!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/878.jpg

Your kidding me, right???:eek:

Don't let anyone lay a finger on it without fitting a pyrometer first:mad:

JC

[omvanders]

Don't let anyone lay a finger on it without fitting a pyrometer first

A lesson learnt JC. So, where to from here?

[slug_burner]

A bigger I/C allows for you to get more air into the cylinders and therefore more fuel for more power.

With the standard I/C you will get a bit more power if the pump is currently underfueling.

To put it another way, if you take your standard I/C and wind up the pump you will get more power, over do it and you will get a lot of black smoke and high egts. With the pump in that wound up state now put a bigger I/C in and you will drop the egts and reduce the smoke. You may also have to tweak the waste gate to produce a bit more pressure as the I/C can now cope and remove the additional heat from the air that makes up the charge.

[mcrover]

A bigger I/C allows for you to get more air into the cylinders and therefore more fuel for more power.

With the standard I/C you will get a bit more power if the pump is currently underfueling.

To put it another way, if you take your standard I/C and wind up the pump you will get more power, over do it and you will get a lot of black smoke and high egts. With the pump in that wound up state now put a bigger I/C in and you will drop the egts and reduce the smoke. You may also have to tweak the waste gate to produce a bit more pressure as the I/C can now cope and remove the additional heat from the air that makes up the charge.

This is great intheory but has been argued to death on here before.

Im not convinced that an IC will make a huge effect on EGT's, it is more just a matter of balance between what air you can get in and what fuel you can feed the engine before it gets to the too much level.

The IC is there to increase the capacity for the turbo to be able to boost, making the turbo more efficient more than anything else.

Again, this has been argued before and I may have it **** about but thats how I can see it in my mind and I havnt had anyone come up with a strong enough arguement to change my mind so far.

[Disco_owner]

Hi Omvander;

I had my 300tdi 4WD dyno'ed at Graeme Cooper automotive while ago ( happy to post the dyno figures )

Prior to getting it "tuned" , I had fitted a "uprated intercooler" , but I suspect it would have made bugger all difference to the dyno results but happy to be proven otherwise ,

HOwever EGT does run cooler with the bigger core I/C than stock I/C from Experience , and the recovery rate of EGT is much quicker than with Stock I/C .

So with the vehicle on 4wd dyno , the VE bosch Pump was adjusted until the correct A/F mixture setting was achieved , Pump timing reset which was slightly

out , I can't see any black smoke , even when I plant my foot on a long uphill. so the most that they could squeeze out of my 2.5 tdi motor with the

CORRECT Fuel-Air mixture and Boost compensation was 49.8 kw . but very occasionally they get vehicles which they refer to as Rocket ships that after a

"proper tune" they can squeeze around 65kw , so your Dyno figure of 70kw definitely seems to indicates that there is an overfueling issues.

[omvanders]

Thanks for that disco-owner. That's useful info to add to everyone else's comments. One query though... could the fact that they dropped the prop shaft and dynoed with the back wheels only influence the readout? Might it be that if it was dynoed using a 4wd machine the result would have been similar to those you're quoting? (to add to this, it's interesting that my pre-dyno reading was as high as 50kW, although it is a tight engine with only 137k's).

Even so your comments about no black smoke make me think once again that I should get it redone, maybe by someone else in Adelaide (who uses a pyrometer as well, as per JC's advice)??

[100I]

McRover I am shocked yours is still completely stock:eek:

[Blknight.aus]

while I agree and support all of the above in regards to the EGTs dynoing and all the rest.

I think your pump is set up wrong. the boost aneroid should stop almost all the black smoke and if it cant then youve gone way to hard on the plunger lift. (which is the max fuel setting)

ignoring the EGT issues and everything else related to that, if youve got it cranked that hard your just wasting fuel.

To paraphrase something from one of my old southern engines workshop manual

"care should be taken to ensure that after tuning the engine does not produce more than the designed horse power. Doing so is detrimental to the engines life and is wasteful of fuel. Our 11HP engine is capable of producing up to 15 hp but when tested at this rate piston failure took place at less than 100 hours and the fuel consumption was more than doubled"

[omvanders]

Thanks blknight... so do I take it back to them to repeat the dyno and 'tone it down' a little, or am I wasting my time with them and take it elsewhere, or do I simply leave as is and drive accordingly?

(btw it's getting around 10l/100km in city and country (a little better than before dyno).

[clean32]

This is great intheory but has been argued to death on here before.

Im not convinced that an IC will make a huge effect on EGT's, it is more just a matter of balance between what air you can get in and what fuel you can feed the engine before it gets to the too much level.

The IC is there to increase the capacity for the turbo to be able to boost, making the turbo more efficient more than anything else.

Again, this has been argued before and I may have it **** about but thats how I can see it in my mind and I havnt had anyone come up with a strong enough arguement to change my mind so far.

That’s because I suspect you may be thinking in Volume\ pressure and not Kgm2 and C.

I will try again, I have posed a table elsewhere

If the intake are is at 20C that = 1.205 KG of air per m2, normal numbers for a NA motor

Now if after turbo charging the intake temperature rises to 80 C that = only 1 Kg of air per m2

That’s a 20 percent difference or loss.

spin it the other way around, if you reduce the intake air from 80c to 20c you will get an instant 20% increase in air flow.

or on a 2.5 ltr at 3000rpm = say 3750 ltrs per minute, add a manifold pressure of 10 psi (.68 Bar) = 6300 ltr per minute.
6300 ltrs per minute with an ambient temp of 20c would = a manifold temp of about 85 c plus latent. so if can cool all this air back down to 20c or to achieve the same KGm2 you would have to up your boost to about 15psi a 50% increase.

NB numbers out of my head, didn’t use the charts or calc, but you get the idea.

Most and a 300tdi included have a Std IC that is matched about correct for a STD set up, so changing the IC on its own will not show much.
On the other hand, you can have a IC that’s to big, its not like you will be able to cool the intake charge down to -100C on a 20C day. Nice if you could that’s a 100% increase.

[Disco_owner]

Thanks for that disco-owner. That's useful info to add to everyone else's comments. One query though... could the fact that they dropped the prop shaft and dynoed with the back wheels only influence the readout? Might it be that if it was dynoed using a 4wd machine the result would have been similar to those you're quoting? (to add to this, it's interesting that my pre-dyno reading was as high as 50kW, although it is a tight engine with only 137k's).

Even so your comments about no black smoke make me think once again that I should get it redone, maybe by someone else in Adelaide (who uses a pyrometer as well, as per JC's advice)??

There is a lot of Good advice here , my advice is have your vehicle "properly tuned" by a Diesel mechanic,as dave say black smoke is unburnt and wasted fuel , they will have access to a proper 4WD Dyno and can do all this work whilst the vehicle is on the dyno.

Black smoke will soot up your engine oil quickly and it will probably require replacement at shorter intervals as well. so it's costing you more in effect both on Fuel and maintenance.:(

[clean32]

I feel that way to much attention is Paid to EGT on this site. High EGTs can be created by a couple of things not just over fueling. Back pressure at the turbo inlet is often overlooked.

in the case of the original poster, and considering his so called tune was done at Blackwoods, I would suspect that and in light of his water temp, the first thing I would look at is wastegate opening,
I suspect that the waste gate is not opening, building up back pressure ( and heat) which also restricts the flow of the new cooler charge.
Some thing that will not show up on a dino with a few short runs

It is actually possible ( in a high state of tune) to get back pressure from the turbo so high that the gasses will not even flow out of the chamber. Nothing out nothing in.

[omvanders]

Disco_owner...

Remembering of course that the one and only I time i've had such black smoke is the Willunga Hill example given in the original post. Otherwise it's 'as clean as'.

Furthermore, prior to dyno the head temp was still getting up to 100 degrees C on the same run, admittedly going 20km per hour slower as that was it's previous limit up the said hill.

[justinc]

There is a lot of Good advice here , my advice is have your vehicle "properly tuned" by a Diesel mechanic,as dave say black smoke is unburnt and wasted fuel , they will have access to a proper 4WD Dyno and can do all this work whilst the vehicle is on the dyno.

Black smoke will soot up your engine oil quickly and it will probably require replacement at shorter intervals as well. so it's costing you more in effect both on Fuel and maintenance.:(

Actually, this is the whole problem, it isn't unburnt, its still burning way after it should, thats what pushes the EGT up. The 'afterburn' characteristics of a diesel engine are what gives it its low down impressive torque, the high compression ratios and turbocharging are what gives them the efficiency. Adding intercooling just increases its efficiency due to increasing the density of the incoming air charge. Overfuelling isn't so much 'wasteful', as damaging.

JC

[Disco_owner]

Actually, this is the whole problem, it isn't unburnt, its still burning way after it should, thats what pushes the EGT up. The 'afterburn' characteristics of a diesel engine are what gives it its low down impressive torque, the high compression ratios and turbocharging are what gives them the efficiency. Adding intercooling just increases its efficiency due to increasing the density of the incoming air charge. Overfuelling isn't so much 'wasteful', as damaging.

JC


Thanks Justinc, I was merely making the the point that black smoke once leaving the combustion chamber is inefficient and that to me is wasted fuel per every combustion cycle. if that makes any sense.

[omvanders]

If I may I'd like to summarise just to put things in perspective and hone the collective wisdom of the forum so evident in this thread.

Under normal driving conditions, including fast acceleration, the car does not blow any smoke to speak of (aside from the puff at initial startup)

It was only up the very steep and long Willunga Hill, with the foot flat to the floor, that the black smoke was evident. As soon as I backed off just a fraction on the pedal the smoke disappeared in the rear view mirror, and I maintained much the same momentum regardless.

Fuel economy is good, post dyno I took it down to Salt Creek (travelling at 100km/hr on the open road, and some offroading in sand, and it returned 10l/100km... much the same as city driving. Travelling at 80-90km per hour I'm estimating by the gauge movement that I get a lot better than that again.

If the verdict is that I need the dyno re-done, any advice on where to go in Adelaide would be much appreciated.

[Blknight.aus]

ok.. this is going to sound very assertive, authorative and probabley offenisive to some. If you think this is likely to be you and youve seen some of my other posts that fit into this catagory, move along, nothing to see here...

for the rest..

Gauges are for people who dont know how to listen to and feel their engines the more gauges you put onto an engine the more you watch them for the tiniest imperfection in their postion and the more you worry about tiny little deviations. This is distracting and annoying the second is bad enough especially when you get inundated with questions about things that are and have been perfectly normal for ages but all of a sudden because someone can see them change dynamically and instantly they get worried and call me or someone else and we have to explain that no, thats fine. The first part is more worrying, if your watching the gauges and thinking about what they are doing then you ARENT WATCHING THE ROAD AND CONCENTRATING ON DRIVING. The first person to have an accident where they are at fault with me that comes out with "well I was just monitoring the EGT gauge as it was creeping up slowly as I was climbing the hill and well I didnt see you" is going to get as far as "monitoring the EGT" and will then stop because I have just broken his jaw.

Learn your engine, they all talk you just have to learn to listen for what they're saying.

your first clue is the big black smoke plume that you can see in the rear view mirror... that should have your brain going urm perhaps I might be asking a bit much here. If the engines humping around in the engine bay and the shift levers threatening to break your left and the passangers right knee in both cases, gear down and get into it again.

Heres my line in the sand

IF you dont know how to listen and show vehicle sympathy you dont get to mod the car. In stock spec they are designed to be hard to kill short of actually being neglectful or trying to kill them.

IF you do know how to do all that then you probabley dont need to be reading this and will already know that guages are just there to back up what you should already have a damn good idea about and move that knowlodge from ball park to spot on.

ok Ranty bit done.

If I was going to be dynoing the car for preformance/retuning

ID take care of the cooling system first, the whole 9 yards get that to 100% first.
Then Id sort out the intake side of business and the exhuast. intercoolers, silcone hoeses, bigger exhausts, waste gate actuation, exhaust brakes, mounts, flanges the lot.

Id then fully service the engine new oil, leaks gone, filters, tappets, timing, compression, glowplugs/spark plugs, injectors serviced/renewed the whole 9 yards. Then ID make sure that everything downstream of the donk was up to spec as well.

once I was confident that everything was as good as it could be gotten ID then goto a 4 wheel dyno, 2 wheels work but thats just not the way the landy was made to work.

Id then get them to give me an incremented power up run and Id be watching
power out fuel in, temps and the exhaust.

then Id start to tinker making sure that at no point in a repeat run was their an unexpected rise in the cooling system temp or the EGT's (the first sign that the aneroid is not functioning as well as it could or that something else is amiss) a dip in the power/torque curve (which usually indicates a limit in the engines breathing being it something to do with the cam profile or the waste gate opening before the engine makes so much exhaust gas that the gate is overwhelmed bringing on more power) and finally that at full load, full noise with full boost in 4th gear that the smoke wasnt too bad and that the EGT didnt go past 650 with the engine at normal operating temps.

now taking to the front of the intercooler...

the intercooler does not change the EGT's fiting a bigger cooler can actually raise the EGT's if its not set up properly. heres why....

as the air gets compressed by the turbo it heats up and the little bits of air dont want to be near each other because they are too hot and want to cool down. you feed them into an intercooler and they cool down and get all snugly then they get crammed into a small place squashed introduced to some diesel and all decide that the pressure is all too much and this new bloke has a volatile personality and you get a conflageration. Its like jamming people into phone booths, you get fewer hot sweaty people willing to get in there than you do people who are shivering with cold.

the more burning air and fuel in a given place the more heat you make and the more work you get done but theres a physical limit (well its a thermodynamics limit in this case but lets let that slide for now) as to just how much work you can get done in the amount of time thats available to that burning fuel air combo and putting more fuel and air in makes no more difference so once the fuel and the air finishes pushing down on the piston when the exhaust valve opens they just head on out on fire. While thats great for the turbos turbine as a burning gas is an expanding gas its bad for everything else from the valve to the seals on the turbo.

Generally if you find yourself in this situation you run out of air before you run out of fuel so the fuel thats there doesnt burn properly and heads on out feeling happy with itself because it got out without doing as much work as it could.

when you cool a gas it becomes smaller, given yeah, something made smaller in a fixed space will be at a lower pressure and this becomes problematic for the pump... If the pump is readin the turbo output pressure and the inlet manifolds only showing part of that then the fueling ratio can get screwed up which leads to... dun dun dahhhh over fueling, overfueling leads to black smoke, generally where theres smoke theres fire and Im betting thats what a pyro gauge will tell you.
Thats a worst case scenario, generally a better intercooler is always a good idea its when you get a hack greaser whose just interested in seeing how much of your fuel he can get out your exhaust that your likely to run into that particular problem.


in your exact case.... get the cooling system sorted at a professional raditor shop Id suggest that it will want at least a professional flush and if they reccomend a rodding go with that to.

then I'd would nicely ask the dyno shop how long they are willing to wait before they will cut you out of the redo thing. See if you can convince them to wait till after you fit the pyro gauge ( or get one that you can use during the test) and then have them rego it with an eye at killing out the black smoke. Start with boost pressure (factory max is just over 1ATM gauge) then go the pump(adjust the aneroid first and then if that doesnt do it back the fuelling off, return the aneroid to the starting position and go again repeat untill your happy)

I would suggest doing a heap of research to find out what numbers your happy to go with. I personally would be aiming at something like

16psi boost, 650deg c on the pyro with minimal smoke while developing peak torque and a little more at full power. I would expect something near the 280-320nm mark for max torque and let say 65ish KW for max power. as you can tell by your charts, thats a little conservative and more is definitely achievable BUT it comes with a cost in fuel and engine risk What your willing to risk is your choice.

once youve got those numbers dialed in your safe and your pyro gauge is no longer a threat level indicator, used in conjunction with a boost gauge it becomes an economy gauge. Once you worked out what your gauges do in certain circumstances you will find you no longer need them and can rely on checking the exhaust in the mirror and your ears.

best of luck with it all.

[omvanders]

Blknight thanks for the detailed advice.

Just letting you know I'm not into 'modding' for the sake of it. I'm pretty much a bloke who wants a stock Landy to do what it's designed to do. I'm also not into flogging engines, and backed off the pedal as soon as I saw the smoke start happening on the last section of the hill where it gets that bit steeper and my pedal pressure had gotten just that bit heavier.

I only went with the whole intercooler/dyno thing because I was led to believe that this was a simple improvement that could/would up the power output possible, whereby I could actually go lighter on the pedal pressure. I was given the impression that it would actually be resulting in less stress on the engine & potentially better fuel economy to boot!

Your post, and others, have given me a new perspective on things. Maybe I should have left things as they were, and put up with the thought of getting RSI from having to apply the right foot so heavily to even get going from a set of lights!?

BTW my cooling system seems to be doing the job fine judging by the dash gauge (it hasn't moved when the TM-2 is showing 108 C). It also dropped back admirably as soon as the load was taken off.
From what you're saying 108 is too hot, right?

Thanks again for your last post... lots in there to ponder, and act upon.

[Blknight.aus]

108 in the coolant is fine....

but if thats 108 as read on a bolt down type sensor that on top of the block then thats too hot unless you have it mounted near the exhaust and its reading radiated temperature from that.

by the time one of the head mounted jobs reads 108 youve heated the coolant and then the top of the head to at least that temperature.. who knows what temp the coolant is actually at.

if you can make it blow lots of black smoke under any conditions its overcooked. you can deal with it 2 ways.

1. take it back and get it properly sorted.
2. know that your engine is now capable of killing itself if asked to, just dont ask it to.

[mcrover]

McRover I am shocked yours is still completely stock:eek:

Mine is standard and Ive not made any secrate of that.

Mine also keeps up with a couple of mates ones that are tweaked yet uses a bit more fuel.

Mine also has a 307,000km worn out old trans that im reluctant to put more power into until I get it rebuilt so im a. Not wasting my time and b. Im not going to kill it.


This is great intheory but has been argued to death on here before.

Im not convinced that an IC will make a huge effect on EGT's, it is more just a matter of balance between what air you can get in and what fuel you can feed the engine before it gets to the too much level.

The IC is there to increase the capacity for the turbo to be able to boost, making the turbo more efficient more than anything else.

Again, this has been argued before and I may have it **** about but thats how I can see it in my mind and I havnt had anyone come up with a strong enough arguement to change my mind so far.

That’s because I suspect you may be thinking in Volume\ pressure and not Kgm2 and C.

I will try again, I have posed a table elsewhere

If the intake are is at 20C that = 1.205 KG of air per m2, normal numbers for a NA motor

Now if after turbo charging the intake temperature rises to 80 C that = only 1 Kg of air per m2

That’s a 20 percent difference or loss.

spin it the other way around, if you reduce the intake air from 80c to 20c you will get an instant 20% increase in air flow.

or on a 2.5 ltr at 3000rpm = say 3750 ltrs per minute, add a manifold pressure of 10 psi (.68 Bar) = 6300 ltr per minute.
6300 ltrs per minute with an ambient temp of 20c would = a manifold temp of about 85 c plus latent. so if can cool all this air back down to 20c or to achieve the same KGm2 you would have to up your boost to about 15psi a 50% increase.

NB numbers out of my head, didn’t use the charts or calc, but you get the idea.

Most and a 300tdi included have a Std IC that is matched about correct for a STD set up, so changing the IC on its own will not show much.
On the other hand, you can have a IC that’s to big, its not like you will be able to cool the intake charge down to -100C on a 20C day. Nice if you could that’s a 100% increase.

As I have put above in my previous post, I agree with you that it makes the Turbo more efficient but the only thing it does when it comes out the other sode is in theory allow the potential to fuel it more but in practice, your only going to use as much pedal as you require so all the numbers and formular etc mean diddly without knowing what the right foot is doing, how steep the hill is and how fast the cars going.

You can replicate some of these factors on a dyno but in reasl life, you can just set the max limits you want it to reach and hope that for some reason it doesnt exceed them too often.


I feel that way to much attention is Paid to EGT on this site. High EGTs can be created by a couple of things not just over fueling. Back pressure at the turbo inlet is often overlooked.

in the case of the original poster, and considering his so called tune was done at Blackwoods, I would suspect that and in light of his water temp, the first thing I would look at is wastegate opening,
I suspect that the waste gate is not opening, building up back pressure ( and heat) which also restricts the flow of the new cooler charge.
Some thing that will not show up on a dino with a few short runs

It is actually possible ( in a high state of tune) to get back pressure from the turbo so high that the gasses will not even flow out of the chamber. Nothing out nothing in.

Spot on, other than EGT's are the only real way of getting a base number for balancing the fuel system but I agree with Dave that it is really only a tool to set the levels and then it is basically useless.


ok.. this is going to sound very assertive, authorative and probabley offenisive to some. If you think this is likely to be you and youve seen some of my other posts that fit into this catagory, move along, nothing to see here...

for the rest..

Gauges are for people who dont know how to listen to and feel their engines the more gauges you put onto an engine the more you watch them for the tiniest imperfection in their postion and the more you worry about tiny little deviations. This is distracting and annoying the second is bad enough especially when you get inundated with questions about things that are and have been perfectly normal for ages but all of a sudden because someone can see them change dynamically and instantly they get worried and call me or someone else and we have to explain that no, thats fine. The first part is more worrying, if your watching the gauges and thinking about what they are doing then you ARENT WATCHING THE ROAD AND CONCENTRATING ON DRIVING. The first person to have an accident where they are at fault with me that comes out with "well I was just monitoring the EGT gauge as it was creeping up slowly as I was climbing the hill and well I didnt see you" is going to get as far as "monitoring the EGT" and will then stop because I have just broken his jaw.

Learn your engine, they all talk you just have to learn to listen for what they're saying.

your first clue is the big black smoke plume that you can see in the rear view mirror... that should have your brain going urm perhaps I might be asking a bit much here. If the engines humping around in the engine bay and the shift levers threatening to break your left and the passangers right knee in both cases, gear down and get into it again.

Heres my line in the sand

IF you dont know how to listen and show vehicle sympathy you dont get to mod the car. In stock spec they are designed to be hard to kill short of actually being neglectful or trying to kill them.

IF you do know how to do all that then you probabley dont need to be reading this and will already know that guages are just there to back up what you should already have a damn good idea about and move that knowlodge from ball park to spot on.

ok Ranty bit done.

If I was going to be dynoing the car for preformance/retuning

ID take care of the cooling system first, the whole 9 yards get that to 100% first.
Then Id sort out the intake side of business and the exhuast. intercoolers, silcone hoeses, bigger exhausts, waste gate actuation, exhaust brakes, mounts, flanges the lot.

Id then fully service the engine new oil, leaks gone, filters, tappets, timing, compression, glowplugs/spark plugs, injectors serviced/renewed the whole 9 yards. Then ID make sure that everything downstream of the donk was up to spec as well.

once I was confident that everything was as good as it could be gotten ID then goto a 4 wheel dyno, 2 wheels work but thats just not the way the landy was made to work.

Id then get them to give me an incremented power up run and Id be watching
power out fuel in, temps and the exhaust.

then Id start to tinker making sure that at no point in a repeat run was their an unexpected rise in the cooling system temp or the EGT's (the first sign that the aneroid is not functioning as well as it could or that something else is amiss) a dip in the power/torque curve (which usually indicates a limit in the engines breathing being it something to do with the cam profile or the waste gate opening before the engine makes so much exhaust gas that the gate is overwhelmed bringing on more power) and finally that at full load, full noise with full boost in 4th gear that the smoke wasnt too bad and that the EGT didnt go past 650 with the engine at normal operating temps.

now taking to the front of the intercooler...

the intercooler does not change the EGT's fiting a bigger cooler can actually raise the EGT's if its not set up properly. heres why....

as the air gets compressed by the turbo it heats up and the little bits of air dont want to be near each other because they are too hot and want to cool down. you feed them into an intercooler and they cool down and get all snugly then they get crammed into a small place squashed introduced to some diesel and all decide that the pressure is all too much and this new bloke has a volatile personality and you get a conflageration. Its like jamming people into phone booths, you get fewer hot sweaty people willing to get in there than you do people who are shivering with cold.

the more burning air and fuel in a given place the more heat you make and the more work you get done but theres a physical limit (well its a thermodynamics limit in this case but lets let that slide for now) as to just how much work you can get done in the amount of time thats available to that burning fuel air combo and putting more fuel and air in makes no more difference so once the fuel and the air finishes pushing down on the piston when the exhaust valve opens they just head on out on fire. While thats great for the turbos turbine as a burning gas is an expanding gas its bad for everything else from the valve to the seals on the turbo.

Generally if you find yourself in this situation you run out of air before you run out of fuel so the fuel thats there doesnt burn properly and heads on out feeling happy with itself because it got out without doing as much work as it could.

when you cool a gas it becomes smaller, given yeah, something made smaller in a fixed space will be at a lower pressure and this becomes problematic for the pump... If the pump is readin the turbo output pressure and the inlet manifolds only showing part of that then the fueling ratio can get screwed up which leads to... dun dun dahhhh over fueling, overfueling leads to black smoke, generally where theres smoke theres fire and Im betting thats what a pyro gauge will tell you.
Thats a worst case scenario, generally a better intercooler is always a good idea its when you get a hack greaser whose just interested in seeing how much of your fuel he can get out your exhaust that your likely to run into that particular problem.


in your exact case.... get the cooling system sorted at a professional raditor shop Id suggest that it will want at least a professional flush and if they reccomend a rodding go with that to.

then I'd would nicely ask the dyno shop how long they are willing to wait before they will cut you out of the redo thing. See if you can convince them to wait till after you fit the pyro gauge ( or get one that you can use during the test) and then have them rego it with an eye at killing out the black smoke. Start with boost pressure (factory max is just over 1ATM gauge) then go the pump(adjust the aneroid first and then if that doesnt do it back the fuelling off, return the aneroid to the starting position and go again repeat untill your happy)

I would suggest doing a heap of research to find out what numbers your happy to go with. I personally would be aiming at something like

16psi boost, 650deg c on the pyro with minimal smoke while developing peak torque and a little more at full power. I would expect something near the 280-320nm mark for max torque and let say 65ish KW for max power. as you can tell by your charts, thats a little conservative and more is definitely achievable BUT it comes with a cost in fuel and engine risk What your willing to risk is your choice.

once youve got those numbers dialed in your safe and your pyro gauge is no longer a threat level indicator, used in conjunction with a boost gauge it becomes an economy gauge. Once you worked out what your gauges do in certain circumstances you will find you no longer need them and can rely on checking the exhaust in the mirror and your ears.

best of luck with it all.

Spot on Dave :D

[omvanders]

Just for some further info I took it (or is it her?!) up the South Eastern Freeway tonight (that's a not-insignificant climb up through the Adelaide Hills from Adelaide), and it cruised up effortlessly in top gear at 90km/hr, with the TM-2 maxxing at 100 degrees C (20 degrees ambient air temp outside) and holding at that temp for the last km or so before breaching the hill. By the time I pulled up in Stirling a minute or so later it was back at 88 degrees... pretty happy with that.:)

However, with headlights behind me on the way home on the Southern Expressway I could see that there was a fine mist from the exhaust under acceleration, and I'm definitely taking it back to Blackwood Dyno to get it toned down a little.

[clean32]

Just for some further info I took it (or is it her?!) up the South Eastern Freeway tonight (that's a not-insignificant climb up through the Adelaide Hills from Adelaide), and it cruised up effortlessly in top gear at 90km/hr, with the TM-2 maxxing at 100 degrees C (20 degrees ambient air temp outside) and holding at that temp for the last km or so before breaching the hill. By the time I pulled up in Stirling a minute or so later it was back at 88 degrees... pretty happy with that.:)

However, with headlights behind me on the way home on the Southern Expressway I could see that there was a fine mist from the exhaust under acceleration, and I'm definitely taking it back to Blackwood Dyno to get it toned down a little.doint trust the fine mist in the headlights behind, diesel exorst is a bit more solid any way. day time and black smoke is the only way

[omvanders]

doint trust the fine mist in the headlights behind, diesel exorst is a bit more solid any way. day time and black smoke is the only way

That's reassuring clean32, as I was thinking that my Hyundai I30 diesel might be running a bit rich too! Then again I'm getting 1100km per tank out of that little number.

[mcrover]

That's reassuring clean32, as I was thinking that my Hyundai I30 diesel might be running a bit rich too! Then again I'm getting 1100km per tank out of that little number.

I like those I30's, I was looking at them a little while ago when we were thinking about up grading the carolla but Mrs Mc is still loveing the Rolla so no I30 for me as Im not getting rid of Casper:cool:

[omvanders]

I like those I30's, I was looking at them a little while ago when we were thinking about up grading the carolla but Mrs Mc is still loveing the Rolla so no I30 for me as Im not getting rid of Casper

As this is a Landrover forum I'll hold back on talking about the I30, except to say that I am very very happy with it.:D

[clean32]

That's reassuring clean32, as I was thinking that my Hyundai I30 diesel might be running a bit rich too! Then again I'm getting 1100km per tank out of that little number.

Came close to get one of them, but it was a little on the small side, i had problems fitting in.

My first diesel car was a Mazda 323 1.7 ltr, back then $17.00 to fill and it lasted a month.
fitted a super charger and pump from a Mazda 626 2 ltr. That lasted a month. I had never before or since seen a head with so many cracks. LOL. and I was concerned with the life of the I30, I don’t really want to be one of the first. It could turn out to me like my Ford Ranger 30ltr turbo auto, no end of problems.

[omvanders]

I'm 6 foot and have to slide the seat forward so height's not an issue.

Check out the new car build quality ratings coming from the US. Hyundai now comes 3rd, only bettered by Porsche and Lexus. They (the Koreans) have done in 5 years what it took the Japs 15 years to achieve in terms of quality improvements.

Anyways the 5 year warranty will offer a good window period.

[Disco_owner]

OM
I have a friend who recently bought a Hyundai Terracan ( I think that's how you spell it :p ) and he speak quite hightly of it , he's mainly bought it for towing , but also it's affordability, economy wise Huyndai claims 10.1 L/100 kms , but achieved 7.29L/km in a mix of city and rural driving.

like you said the Korean auto makers vehicle quality has come a long way.

[clean32]

I'm 6 foot and have to slide the seat forward so height's not an issue.

Check out the new car build quality ratings coming from the US. Hyundai now comes 3rd, only bettered by Porsche and Lexus. They (the Koreans) have done in 5 years what it took the Japs 15 years to achieve in terms of quality improvements.

Anyways the 5 year warranty will offer a good window period.

Ok didn’t know that, but then I didn’t look.

As for fitting, its my shoulders, to wide, even in the county I am up against the B pillar. I get a pain in my lower back if I drive a car when I am on a slight lean LOL

[omvanders]

When I was researching what to buy to get back into offroading after some years out of it, one of the vehicles I came to rate highly - in terms of value for money - was the Terracan. But then I was 'seduced' by the idea of getting a good Landrover Discovery 300 TDi, and say no more...