2009 Mclaren

[Pedro_The_Swift]

This is a good example of the new aero regs for 2009,
bigger front wing, smaller rear, and all the little tricky bits around the drivers legs have gone,,,
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/584.jpg

[Phoenix]

Looks quite different. it will be in teresting to see what the racing is like now.

I've not seen specifically what the changes are, can you enlighten me? the cars that I have seen (this and the F60) seem smoother and sleeker.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

just to compare,, the 2009 ferrari

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/436.jpg

[Phoenix]

god, don't tell me the cars are actually starting to look different from one another again!

[rick130]

Williams
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/432.jpg

BMW
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/433.jpg

Renault
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/434.jpg

F1 News - Grandprix.com (http://www.grandprix.com/)

[Phoenix]

the wing just does look too small doesn't it!

[PAT303]

The rear wing looks stupid.Ugly cars. Pat

[Slunnie]

Here is some insider information.


This is a pic of testing being done on a 2010 spec F1 car...


Oh hang on - isn't that a Formula Ford!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[D3Jon]

Those new rear wing regs certainly leave the cars looking rather dis-proportionate and in my opinion not the 'pinnacle' of motor sport technology. However the new FIA rules from Max & Co will hopefully create a more even field with closer and more exciting F1 racing.

The revised maximum rear wing size along with the ban of 'winglets', barge boards, etc is obviously intended to create more overtaking opportunities by reducing the dirty' (turbulant) air that stopped the pre 2009 cars from following each other too closely into a bend.

Hopefully the other new aero rules such as driver adjustable front wings, along with the other major changes of KER boost, slick tyres, etc will create much closer racing with lot's of overtaking!! Roll on March 2009 for the start of the season.

[Slunnie]

True, but they've been saying that with host of modifications over the last heap of years. It was also the plan with the abolition of ETC/ABS, skirts, flat pans, reduced motors and even when they tried to reduce cornering speeds with 7.50R16 wets they had higher peak speeds. The passing is the same as it has ever been from when I was watching it as a weeee lad. Actually, I used to really like watching Senna and Prost have a go at it - or each other!

[rick130]

Here is some insider information.


This is a pic of testing being done on a 2010 spec F1 car...


Oh hang on - isn't that a Formula Ford!

http://www.formulaford1600.com.au/STATE/nsw%202007/2007%20IMAGES/morley%20nat%20rd3.jpg


The only road race category where you always see real racing. :D

[rick130]

True, but they've been saying that with host of modifications over the last heap of years. It was also the plan with the abolition of ETC/ABS, skirts, flat pans, reduced motors and even when they tried to reduce cornering speeds with 7.50R16 wets they had higher peak speeds. The passing is the same as it has ever been from when I was watching it as a weeee lad. Actually, I used to really like watching Senna and Prost have a go at it - or each other!


A few mates and I used to discuss this all the time 15-20 years ago, and it helped that my mates mates were involved in Champ cars, then F1, including designing the cars.

Too many vested interests so the powers that be have never really addressed the issues IMO.

Widen the track (more mechanical grip for low speed corners and better stability in the high speed ones. Also increases frontal area which increases drag and so can reduce top speed a little.)

Allow tunnels again for downforce (less reliance on the front wing for front end grip and hence you retain grip when in turbulent air. The tunnels are far less affected by turbulance)

Reduce the rear wing size substantially, and reduce the number of elements (looks like they've finally done this !)



<edit>I've never 'Hero worshipped' anyone, but F1 died a lot for me at Imola in 1994, more than I realised at the time.

[Slunnie]

A few mates and I used to discuss this all the time 15-20 years ago, and it helped that my mates mates were involved in Champ cars, then F1, including designing the cars.

Too many vested interests so the powers that be have never really addressed the issues IMO.

Widen the track (more mechanical grip for low speed corners and better stability in the high speed ones. Also increases frontal area which increases drag and so can reduce top speed a little.)

Allow tunnels again for downforce (less reliance on the front wing for front end grip and hence you retain grip when in turbulent air. The tunnels are far less affected by turbulance)

Reduce the rear wing size substantially, and reduce the number of elements (looks like they've finally done this !)
I think they're some really good suggestions.

I think that they should dramatically reduce downforce overall and increase drag in the cars. Maintaining the look and charm of a grand prix car is important though and I tend to think that something along the lines of the low down force spec champ cars would be good. What that will do it hold the leaders back and bring the midfield up to them and also make it harder to form a break away group. I tend to think that they shouldn't widen the car though because maximising the track proportion in relation to the cars will increase the passing opportunities. Likewise reducing downforce and traction levels will increase the importance of the driver, vehicle setup as the braking and accelleration zones are increased. The inconsistencies will also bring passing opportunities through all of the track. I think that one of the problems with racing at Grand Prix level, is that all of the drivers are that good, that their consistency also makes the generation of passing opportunies very very difficult, as not only does there need to be an error, it needs to be big enough to be forced.

If thats doesn't do it, then I'm also a fan of the BTCC parity handicapping rules which slows the fast cars. Its not fair for a competitor, but its excellent for a spectator.

[Slunnie]

I've never 'Hero worshipped' anyone, but F1 died a lot for me at Imola in 1994, more than I realised at the time.
Same - I was watching it live that night. To me it was one of those moments where you remember where you were when it happened, much like 911 and Diana.

[Jeff]

I don't like the rear wing. I do like the slick tyres! At last they look like they are going to do a dry race.

Jeff
:rocket:

[F4Phantom]

can someone explain to me why we cant just have F1 as an unlimited best on planet, fastest possible event? why all the restrictions. The only one I can think of is big budgets would make it unfair, but we would see much more variety like the lotus wing cars of 78 79 and the 8 wheelers ect. much more interesting.

[Slunnie]

can someone explain to me why we cant just have F1 as an unlimited best on planet, fastest possible event? why all the restrictions. The only one I can think of is big budgets would make it unfair, but we would see much more variety like the lotus wing cars of 78 79 and the 8 wheelers ect. much more interesting.
Budget and safety really.

There are a heap of things that the teams could do to make them go faster but the rules prohibit. Apparently in the days of ground effects and skirts they would just about lap with barely a back off. Qualifying turbo motors producing 1500hp. Much of the evolution of the rules have been to slow them down and with some to improve the racing. Even now the racing is becoming unaffordable for many teams as manufacturers withdraw.

[Bigbjorn]

If God had meant racing cars to have rear engines he would have made them that way first!

Anyway, real motor racing has dirt, lights, methanol, and Offenhausers.

[Slunnie]

If God had meant racing cars to have rear engines he would have made them that way first!

Anyway, real motor racing has dirt, lights, methanol, and Offenhausers.
Be enlightened my son! :lol2:

[Bigbjorn]

Be enlightened my son! :lol2:

I am. My aura is the reason Qld. does not have daylight saving time.

[F4Phantom]

Budget and safety really.

There are a heap of things that the teams could do to make them go faster but the rules prohibit. Apparently in the days of ground effects and skirts they would just about lap with barely a back off. Qualifying turbo motors producing 1500hp. Much of the evolution of the rules have been to slow them down and with some to improve the racing. Even now the racing is becoming unaffordable for many teams as manufacturers withdraw.

I say if you want to take the risk and be a driver then so be it. That was what F1 was always about in the early days. Imagine how fast the cars would be today with no rules, instead of being apathetic to this class the magic would be back. They would all be twin turbo 4x4 amazing electrics, massive fans sucking the things down going through corners at 300kph. I would never miss a race if I thought it was actually cutting edge.

[taff]

I say if you want to take the risk and be a driver then so be it. That was what F1 was always about in the early days. Imagine how fast the cars would be today with no rules, instead of being apathetic to this class the magic would be back. They would all be twin turbo 4x4 amazing electrics, massive fans sucking the things down going through corners at 300kph. I would never miss a race if I thought it was actually cutting edge.

they're still taking plenty of risks at the speed's they are travelling at now- theres a limit to how quick the brain can process information and act upon it and i'd say in terms of speed on the track they are not that far away from it.
i do however agree with the comment that f1 cars need to look good and that rear wing has to be changed.

[Slunnie]

they're still taking plenty of risks at the speed's they are travelling at now- theres a limit to how quick the brain can process information and act upon it and i'd say in terms of speed on the track they are not that far away from it.
i do however agree with the comment that f1 cars need to look good and that rear wing has to be changed.
Absolutely, and they could have done this through a full width wing and applied rules such as whats in the V8 supercars which limit the height and number of elements in the wings. Much of F1 is the glamour.

[rick130]

If God had meant racing cars to have rear engines he would have made them that way first!

Anyway, real motor racing has dirt, lights, methanol, and Offenhausers.


:lol2: At least we can agree then that real race cars have neither mudguards or a roof.
Leave taxi cab racing to the Neanderthals. :D

[rick130]

Absolutely, and they could have done this through a full width wing and applied rules such as whats in the V8 supercars which limit the height and number of elements in the wings. Much of F1 is the glamour.

naa, **** the wings off altogether, maybe some trim tabs to balance the aero from tunnels.
Run 'em clean and mean. :twisted:

In all honesty, the wings have only been kept the size they have been in the past due to the size of the billboard and the potential loss of advertising revenue.

I should bail now as I'll get very deep and meaningful at how the only sport I every truly loved, the only thing I really wanted to follow from when I was a littley was destroyed by the money men, I was too weak to cope and so after several years I walked away......... :(

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Scuderia Toro Rosso unveils the 2009 STR4 (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/09/more-bull-scuderia-toro-rosso-unveils-the-2009-str4/)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1067.jpg

[Slunnie]

naa, **** the wings off altogether, maybe some trim tabs to balance the aero from tunnels.
Run 'em clean and mean. :twisted:

In all honesty, the wings have only been kept the size they have been in the past due to the size of the billboard and the potential loss of advertising revenue.

I should bail now as I'll get very deep and meaningful at how the only sport I every truly loved, the only thing I really wanted to follow from when I was a littley was destroyed by the money men, I was too weak to cope and so after several years I walked away......... :(
Yeah, the Lemans type cars are much better aerodynamically. A model that is a lot cleaner and better for adverising.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Force India joins the grid with 2009 VJM02 (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/10/force-india-joins-the-grid-with-2009-vjm02/)





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/1022.jpg

[Slunnie]

That front suspension geometry looks terrible!!!

Reminds me of Jeep a bit, where they take a great suspension design - and then go on to stuff every aspect of it up before using it.

[Bundalene]

The McLaren has certainly changed since 1972 when Kevin Bartlett nursed his M10B Chev to finish outright 5th in the good old Tasman Series...

Now I'm showing my age :o

Mrs B

[rick130]

Slunnie, they're all like that now to greater and lesser degrees, the aero compromises everything.

[Slunnie]

Slunnie, they're all like that now to greater and lesser degrees, the aero compromises everything.
As in the upward angle on the suspension links. I would have thought that this would be a great way to lose stability in the corners. None of the other manufacturers run so much angle.

[rick130]

As in the upward angle on the suspension links. I would have thought that this would be a great way to lose stability in the corners. None of the other manufacturers run so much angle.


Hard to tell until you plot out the camber curves.
Inboard link location and to a lesser degree upright positioning influence it a lot.
The old Ron Tauranac (sp?) designed Brabhams from the late sixties had quite a downward slope of the wishbones from the tub to the upright, and they used quite a bit more wheel travel than these modern machines :D
Remember these things use zero to bugger all droop and an inch and a half or so of bump travel, but yes, I'm guessing Front RC could be a bit strange. Some designers believing in tying RC down fairly precisely, others couldn't really care less.
I know back when Mark Hammond and I were playing with FF RC's, we changed them quite a bit on a couple of cars and it made a huge change to driveability for the drivers.
This was the major diffrence we found between Swifts and Van Diemens, and we changed VD ones a bit too, but not as radically as some of the Swifts.
My last car had the front one higher than the rear and it was sudden death in fast corners. You were Ok, ok ,ok, gone. Far less forgiving than any kart I ever drove.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

[/URL][URL="http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/17/next-f1-champ-to-be-decided-by-race-wins-not-points/"]Next F1 champ to be decided by race wins, not points (http://www.autoblog.com/category/motorsports/)

by John Neff (http://www.autoblog.com/bloggers/john-neff/) on Mar 17th 2009 at 1:58PM
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/795.jpg (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=3989185)

The current points system in Formula One racing rewards 10 points to the driver who comes in first place, 9 to second place and 8 to third. The system was expanded in 2002 to offer points up to 8th place, which was intended to loosen Michael Schumacher's vice-like grip on winning at the time. With Schumi gone, the points system has come under fire for rewarding consistent driving over outright winning. Take last year's champ, Lewis Hamilton (http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/03/lewis-hamilton-is-the-youngest-world-driving-champion-yet/). He won five races and otherwise drove well enough in the races he didn't win to earn more points than Ferrari's Felipe Massa, who won six races total.

The governing body of Formula One, the FIA, has just announced that the 2009 season will feature a new scoring system for the drivers championship based solely on wins. You win the most races, you win the championship. Massa probably wishes the FIA had changed the scoring system a season earlier, but the new one will likely result in more exciting racing as drivers are forced to throw strategy out the window and go for the gold. The old scoring system will still be used, however, in case there's a tie that needs broken. Thanks for the tip, John!

[Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=3989185) | Photo by MAURICIO LIMA/AFP/Getty]

[Slunnie]

It'll be an interesting one! All or nothing driving will be exciting at the front!

Rick, it just looks like an unusually high roll centre for an openwheeler, especially one with as much traction as what these have. Intereting you talk about the various setups and travel. I recall a few years ago there was a F1 team that wasn't even running springs in the front!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Only 9 days to go!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Only 9 days to go!

:eek:

it is Captain!

only 9 more days till I go racing!
;):D

[Captain_Rightfoot]

:eek:

it is Captain!

only 9 more days till I go racing!
;):D

Cool :) Don't forget photos like last time :)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/03/787.jpg

[Pedro_The_Swift]

This should keep you going for a while,,


This from a few rounds of the Australian Championships last year;):cool:

ORP | Videos | 2008 AORC Season Highlights (http://www.offroadpromotions.com.au/2008_AORC_Season_Highlights.html)

[Sandtoyz]

This should keep you going for a while,,


This from a few rounds of the Australian Championships last year;):cool:

ORP | Videos | 2008 AORC Season Highlights (http://www.offroadpromotions.com.au/2008_AORC_Season_Highlights.html)

Aw, now that's just teasing... (yay - it's just 4 weeks until the Donald 400!!!)
Those are good documentries, congrats to Team Taylor for their efforts.

We were at Mildura and Mt. Gambier (plus Donald), and saw the film crews about.
We also got filmed by the in-car camera of Taylors at the Pines Enduro!!!

It was good to see Offroad racing has finally got mainsteam TV coverage this year.
Off Road Racing - Australia - It’s Showtime for Australian Off Road Racing (http://offroadracing.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=242&Itemid=6)
Off Road Racing - Australia - National TV coverage for the Australian Off Road Championship (http://offroadracing.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=249&Itemid=6)
:):):)

[VladTepes]

So..

all the changes to the cars that were designed to slow them down... haven't. As usual.

and how ****ed was the Malaysian speed boat race, ahem, GP ?

Still not sure about that regenerative braking push to boost thingy.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So..

all the changes to the cars that were designed to slow them down... haven't. As usual.

and how ****ed was the Malaysian speed boat race, ahem, GP ?

Still not sure about that regenerative braking push to boost thingy.

Mate I am absolutely loving this season. It will be interesting to see if the Brawn GP cars can stay near the front. Also, Mark has had some bad luck but I'd say his car is quite fast at the moment.

[VladTepes]

Just a quick hijack !


Yeah, the Lemans type cars are much better aerodynamically. A model that is a lot cleaner and better for adverising.

Speaking of Le Mans - Aston Martin will be a force this year ! Their cars went well in testing plus they are running an honest to goodness PETROL engine not a cough cough diesel (great in a 4wd, but a really horrible idea for a race car).

http://www.nextautos.com/files/images/Aston%20Martin%20LMP1-640.jpg
Aston Martin Debuts LMP1 for Le Mans Series | NextAutos.com and Winding Road (http://www.nextautos.com/aston-martin-debuts-lmp1-le-mans-series)

[Phoenix]

now if only we could get some decent coverage of lemans and other 'interesting' races.

You back posting now Mike ?

[VladTepes]

now if only we could get some decent coverage of lemans and other 'interesting' races.

Hopefully Ten's digital channel ONE will assist ?



You back posting now Mike ?

Whatever do you mean ?


So Weber came 2nd the other day in the rain eh ?

[Phoenix]

That's IF tasmania gets One, at the moment we aren't :angry:

I just meant you had been quiet for a while, well compared to the old days LOL :lol2:

Yeah, 2nd was a pretty good effort, it's shaping up to be an interesting season!