Driver space in defenders

[Leo]

Hi,
Is there any way of modifying the seat rails in the new Defenders to increase driver leg-room (and belly room)?

Any of you had a problem fitting behind the wheel or closing the doors.....?

[BigJon]

Penty of people have modified the seat rails in earlier Deefers, the current one shouldn't be too hard.

As for shoulder room, not much you can do about that. It is one of the reasons I have a Classic Rangie rather than a Defender.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi,
Is there any way of modifying the seat rails in the new Defenders to increase driver leg-room (and belly room)?

Any of you had a problem fitting behind the wheel or closing the doors.....?Make some rails to lift and move the seat back or get some "MUD Rails (http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/MUD_Seat_Rails.html)" from the UK which are already done.

The width of the cab is another story, the only defender (or Series since 1958) with shoulder room are the Perentie 6 X 6 and they are not being released from the Army for a while yet.

Diana

[spudboy]

Do a search for MUD rails (in the UK).

They make them for all models of Defender

[Leo]

Thanks for the tips guys. I've checked out 'MUD rails' website and they do make rails for the newer Defenders.

We need to choose between Defenders and some other make for work cars and one of the issues raised by drivers was the width and leg room. Some of our lads are 'not small' lol.

[Tusker]

Mud rails from what I can see lift the seat.. not ideal for a tall driver.

Steering wheel gets in the way, fixable with an aftermarket jobbie.

I still have trouble with the stalks.............

Stick your foot on the clutch & the LH blinker goes off.

Stick your foot on the brake & the wiper goes off!


Regards
Max P

[solmanic]

Hi,
Is there any way of modifying the seat rails in the new Defenders to increase driver leg-room (and belly room)?

Yes, and there are also several ways of modifying the driver to create more "belly room". ;):p

[incisor]

i have one set of unused mud rails i am thinking of selling.....

:angel:

[eksjay]

I am new to LR, and do not understand what is underneath the front seats. Why is there a bulkhead there? What is underneath the car in that section? Will this limitation be looked at in the next model???

Are the mud rails safe - particularly in an accident? :twisted:

Are there any alternatives? Has anyone customised the front seats at authorised/accredited automotive seat specialists? What is the cost?

What kind of average height do the default seat settings cater for?

How is there a lack of shoulder room? :confused:

Why would LR bother putting in Recaros in their 60th Anniversary model when there are such limitations in seat travel????

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Mud rails from what I can see lift the seat.. not ideal for a tall driver.Max they change the angle of the seat base from angled (with the back lower than the front) to the horizontal position. The seat is then fixed rearwards about 2". The result it that the front of the squab is only about 1" higher than original but compensated by its rearward movement. You end up with about 3" of extra leg room, while the head room is not compromised because of the slop of the forward section of the roof.

I am new to LR, and do not understand what is underneath the front seats. Why is there a bulkhead there? What is underneath the car in that section? Will this limitation be looked at in the next model???... <snip> The design of the front seat base is archaic from the 1957 design of the Series II Land Rover (still unchanged and interchangeable), originally in the SII the fuel tank was situated under the front seat and remains there for the Defender 90. In the station wagon models it was an empty space although in the Defender wagons there are a lot of electrics under there.

Will they change it with the next model. They haven't changed it for 50 years - what would make you assume they'll change it now?

Just for your interest, the Santana company who assembled LR under licence and now produce the IVECO Massiff on the Land Rover basis have had a flat floor under the front seats for years.


<snip> ... Are the mud rails safe - particularly in an accident? :twisted: ...<snip> they are approved under UK and Euro standards.


<snip> ... How is there a lack of shoulder room? :confused: ... <snip> your shoulder is pressing against the "B" pillar. They should have added 6" to the width of the body shell rather than adding 2 X 3" mudguard flares when they went to the Range Rover track in the County 90/110/120 models.


<snip> ... Why would LR bother putting in Recaros in their 60th Anniversary model when there are such limitations in seat travel???? For the same reason they produced the SIII game, it was designed by marketing execs using available after-market components and not automotive designers making new components.

[BigJon]

How is there a lack of shoulder room? :confused:



The Defender body is very narrow. The width hasn't changed since the introduction of the Series II Land Rover.

If you compare a Classic Rangie, which has the same axle track, it is easy to see how the Range Rover is a lot wider in the body.

[Bigbjorn]

I made some elevators for a friend to put in his County. Used 1" square tube and 16 gauge tabs welded on in the shape of the feet on the seat rails. took the seats back 2" and up 1". Much better for big men. Other problem is insufficient room in the foot well to fit both the driver and the bloody handbrake.

[PAT303]

As far as seat room goes there isn't much difference between all work utes and even trucks.Hilux's,LC,s,defenders most Hino,Isuzu's have poor seating.It is something you have to live with and with all the crap you carry around because of OH&S you always get hung-up on something.More and more blokes are getting wider around the mid section too which doesn't help. Pat

[BigJon]

As far as seat room goes there isn't much difference between all work utes and even trucks.Hilux's,LC,s,defenders Pat

I assume that is a joke!

I have driven Landcruisers (79 series) and Patrols (GU), late Hiluxes and Navaras.

All of them have loads more driver space than a Defender wagon, let alone a Defender ute.

[rick130]

In wagons and CC's, as Brian suggested lift the seat a little.
Mine are lifted 22mm using some heavy wall tube and the runners and it is fine for me at 6'1,3/4" and mostly legs.

As everyone has suggested, shoulder width is at a premium, which is why I tend to drive with the window down...and heavy jackets in winter make me feel really cramped with the window up :o

[rick130]

<snip>
More and more blokes are getting wider around the mid section too which doesn't help. Pat

and sounds like a few fella's on here too Pat :D

[vnx205]

I suspect it is easier to modify the driver than to modify the Defender.

I am 180cm (5'11") and 62kg (138lb) and I have no complaints about leg room, shoulder room or belly room. :p
Whether that is because there really is enough room or just that my body has been trained by 26 years of driving a Series III, I don't know.

Anyway. it doesn't really matter. I'm happy. :D

[BigJon]

I am 180cm (5'11") and 62kg (138lb) and I have no complaints about leg room, shoulder room or belly room. :p


There is your answer.

I am 194 cm and 125 kg :eek:.

[Scallops]

Should be VBigJon! :p

I'm 186cm, 90kg and have no complaints about available room in the Defender - in fact, I find it very comfy.

[eksjay]

Okay, I think I now know why the Deefers are not sold in the United States. :D

[barney]

HTFU!
open the window and enjoy the great outdoors, with your elbow out the window, it gives you a sense of greater space and the B pillar only serves to keep you safe from the disruptive effects of body roll....it's a safety feature!

[abaddonxi]

I'm still getting used to the handbrake at my left knee - the 130 has been moved to passenger well. I prefer it by my knee.

I've never had a problem in a Defender or 110 cab and I'm 6'3" must just be the wrong proportions.

Now the footwell in a Jag, there I have a problem. Claustrophobic feet.

[Nera Donna]

I'd like to think the seat is poision so far to the Left, so when your drive offroad you can hang your head out the window and see your left front wheel placement?

[abaddonxi]

I'd like to think the seat is poision so far to the Left, so when your drive offroad you can hang your head out the window and see your left front wheel placement?

Or so you can hang your head out, snap at passing branches and howl at the Cockies.:D

Simon

[JDNSW]

I am new to LR, and do not understand what is underneath the front seats. Why is there a bulkhead there? What is underneath the car in that section? Will this limitation be looked at in the next model???

Are the mud rails safe - particularly in an accident? :twisted:

Are there any alternatives? Has anyone customised the front seats at authorised/accredited automotive seat specialists? What is the cost?

What kind of average height do the default seat settings cater for?

How is there a lack of shoulder room? :confused:

Why would LR bother putting in Recaros in their 60th Anniversary model when there are such limitations in seat travel????

To answer your questions you have to look at history of the body. The first Landrover in 1948 (known these days as a Series1 80") was essentially a copy of the first Jeep as far as dimensions go, (which in turn was dimensioned from the prewar Austin Seven). The seat box contained the petrol tank under the RH seat (like the Jeep) a tool box under the LH seat, and the transfer case plus PTO under the centre seat.

With the 86" in 1954 the current dimensions were pretty much set, and these provided considerably more fore and aft room for the driver. Now remember that in the early fifties, comfort was not expected in a work vehicle, and the men it was designed for grew up during the Great Depression, and literally were smaller than those who are about today. Elbow room was limited by the decision to make the Landrover a three seater from the start.

In 1958 the Series 2 appeared (actually designed probably about 1955). While the track was wider, the actual elbow room did not increase as the body narrowed at the waistline and tapered slightly above this. The body dimensions have not changed since. There are several reasons for this. From 1967 with the merger into Leyland, Rover was treated as a cash cow, as Landrover was the only part of the empire making money. While the purse strings were loosened slightly to allow the development of the coil sprung 110 and 90 in the early eighties, the money did not run to new tooling for the bulkhead, the most complex part of the body, and so the body width could not be changed. Since then, poor and decreasing sales of what became the Defender have not encouraged expenditure beyond what has been needed to meet legislative requirements or could be easily transferred from more popular models.

While the seat box, as mentioned above originally was needed to contain the fuel tank, transfer case and PTO plus a tool box, more recent models with the tank in the rear have usually had a tool box and the battery, plus, of course, the transfer case, under the seat box. It could be done away with, but it must be realised that it provides support for the floor and the seat by its box construction, and helps support the B pillar on wagons. Doing away with it would require considerable tooling, and the Defender uses far less tooling than a conventional type of body, so any substantial change represents a large proportion of the total tooling involved (most of which dates back to 1958 and has only had modifications since).

Elbow room was lost when the 110 went to windup windows instead of the sliding windows in 1984, and even more when the new pressed doors were introduced in 1987. It is a great pity that the body could not have been widened instead of fitting flares when the wider axles came with the coils, but it seems very unlikely that any changes will be made to body dimensions until the design is completely replaced. Changing the width of an existing design is a pretty major exercise, and has rarely been done by any manufacturer. The 6x6 Perentie Landrover has a wider body, but it should be noted that the cab is a completely new design, structurally quite different, far heavier, and has no structural parts (except doors) common to other 110/Defenders. And the chassis was also wider, simplifying the change. They were also quite expensive, but this could be justified as the whole vehicle was a specialist vehicle and sold at a price commensurate with this.

Personally I have never had a problem driving any Landrover, and find the 110 quite comfortable, and I am probably about average size 178cm, 93kg.

John

[rick130]

I'm still getting used to the handbrake at my left knee - the 130 has been moved to passenger well. I prefer it by my knee.

<snip>

Ditto. It holds my leg up. :D

Whenever I get out of the Patrol after a trip I have a dicky knee from my knee leaning over too far to the left.
The hand brake position in the Defender keeps the leg straighter and the plane of motion much better for clutch use, therefore I don't get a sore knee.

[2stroke]

I'm fine with the handbrake too, for me it's where to put the right elbow when driving with the windows up, maybe I shouldn't have fixed the aircon?

[eksjay]

Regarding Shoulder room, it is interesting how the LR Defender brochure [the latest one] has a vertical inset photo strip [on the dashboard page] covering the B pillar and has the driver's seat out of view.

Yet, they found the space to photograph/photoshop??? an out-of-focus female body outside the driver's window....:twobeers: