86" springs and bushes

[460cixy]

86" springs and bushes im chaseing springs bushes and shocks for my old 86" fronts are that bad the shackles have stoved in the chassie rail . also i want to rebuild the front diff my big crome balls are fine after 50 years but the swival bearings and tracta joints are a bit hows ya farther does any one do the parts to fix these up?

[JDNSW]

Most of the parts you need are the same as (or interchangeable with) later Series Landrovers except, I think, the chassis bush.

The spring loaded conical top swivel bush setup may be hard to find, but everything else is readily available. The 86" does not use tracta joints like the 80".

See recommended suppliers for places to start phoning.

John

[chazza]

The spring loaded conical top swivel bush setup may be hard to find, but everything else is readily available. The 86" does not use tracta joints like the 80".

John

The conical bush can be replaced by a railko conversion, which was fitted to S2 onwards I believe. I machined the new swivel pins but I believe some companies in the UK can supply a conversion kit. Try Dunsfold,

Cheers Charlie

[JDNSW]

The conical bush can be replaced by a railko conversion, which was fitted to S2 onwards I believe. I machined the new swivel pins but I believe some companies in the UK can supply a conversion kit. Try Dunsfold,

Cheers Charlie

That is correct, and the railko setup is definitely superior. Change is not listed in the parts book, but since the cone type damping is listed in the Series 2a parts book, the change must have been after the 2a was introduced.

John

[460cixy]

i fired off some emails thismorning to a few spring mobs assumeing all swb springs are the same for all modles i shouldent have a problem. what about the front tracta joints are there parts around to sort these? what about steering box stuff? sorry for all the dumb questions

[Lotz-A-Landies]

That is correct, and the railko setup is definitely superior. Change is not listed in the parts book, but since the cone type damping is listed in the Series 2a parts book, the change must have been after the 2a was introduced.

JohnJohn the change was after the Series 2 and the conversion is listed in the Series 2 workshop manual as is the method to install them.

460cixy, make sure that you specified the conversion kit, as they usually just send out the later type for the pendant steering arms (arms on the bottom of the swivel housing). To install the kit look on the long side of the steering arm between the two studs, You will find a hole for a locking pin. This needs to be pushed or drilled out before you can press out the original splined pins for the bronze cone.

When you re-fit the the large seal make sure you do it as per the manual getting the shims right to centralise the seal first and the pre-load second. Put a sealant like silicone on the back of the seal and retaining plate as this sometimes a reason for oil leaks by-passing the seal itself.

The shackles, shocks and bushes are the same for the 86" as the series Series 2. The chassis bush for the series 3 is too big.

I usually use All 4 X Four Spares in Kotara (Newcastle) for parts like these. They do mail order.

Diana

[JDNSW]

i fired off some emails thismorning to a few spring mobs assumeing all swb springs are the same for all modles i shouldent have a problem. what about the front tracta joints are there parts around to sort these? what about steering box stuff? sorry for all the dumb questions

As mentioned above, it does not have Tracta joints (only on 80") - they are conventional Hardy-Spicer cross and bearing joints minus the seals and grease ways. The exact replacement without the seals and greaseways is hard to find, but the seals can be removed from the one which is available from any bearing supplier, and the greaseways do not matter. Leave out the grease nipple.

John

[460cixy]

so its got a jeep style/dana 60 uj instead of the older tracta joint . i havent busted it open yet to have a look but i know its full of grease not oil so its all going to be rooted All 4 X Four Spares in Kotara ile get on to them . whats the story on geting the chassie bush in being a steel shell i bet its a real pain

[Lotz-A-Landies]

... whats the story on geting the chassie bush in being a steel shell i bet its a real pain Grease in the swivel usually means the seal is gone and it's a pain because you have to remove the ball from the axle housing (I won't mention that some people cut the seal, put the cut at the top and re-hook the spring).

Getting the bushes out is the pain because on the early cars there were often 2 short bushes which get a rust ridge between them, when you put in full length bushes you come up against the ridge. The answer is to clean out the hole in the chassis with on of those little "flap discs" you put on a drill or a dremmel and clean off any rust or crud and lubricate the hole and bush with grease before you put it in. To pull the bush in, get some 9/16" threaded rod and a few nuts and some heavy washers. It is important to get at least two that fit around the outside of the inner tube of the bush and some 9/16" ones for the rod. You use a big and small washer behind the bush, poke the rod through the hole in the chassis and another pair of washes on the other side of the chassis. Then you merely wind the bush into place. back off a few threads every so often and when getting close to the end, check to make sure that the large washer on the inside of the chassis located around the inner tube as it comes through the chassis. Done!

Make sure you put plenty of grease on the shackle pin when you put it in and don't fully tighten up the pins until the vehicle is sitting on it's own wheels on level ground.

Diana

[chazza]

whats the story on geting the chassie bush in being a steel shell i bet its a real pain

Getting it out is a bigger pain, as they always seem to be rusted in place :(

The rubber can be burnt out with a gas torch and the outer bush then carefully sawn through with a hand hacksaw, being careful not to saw into the tube in the chassis. Another method is to use a holesaw from each side to cut through the rubber.

Don't forget to grease the outside of the bush as well, when you put the new one in,

Cheers Charlie

[JDNSW]

so its got a jeep style/dana 60 uj instead of the older tracta joint . i havent busted it open yet to have a look but i know its full of grease not oil so its all going to be rooted All 4 X Four Spares in Kotara ile get on to them . whats the story on geting the chassie bush in being a steel shell i bet its a real pain

I am not familiar with Jeeps, nor with Dana axles, but I suspect that they use a Rzeppa type CV U-joint - which is NOT what is used in any Series Landrovers except the Stage 1 Series 3 V8 & Isuzu. 80" Series 1 (and I think only to 1950 or 51) used a Tracta joint, but when they changed from full time to part time four wheel drive, the joint was changed to a cross and bearing type joint the same as the ones on the prop shafts, and I think, the same size, but without seals or grease ways. Even if the swivel is filled with grease, the joints are not necessarily shot, as they will have been unloaded most of the time, but the presence of grease means there is a good chance they have been run dry or had water in, in which case they probably are shot. But they are cheap, readily available, and easy to replace.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>... 80" Series 1 (and I think only to 1950 or 51) used a Tracta joint, but when they changed from full time to part time four wheel drive, the joint was changed to a cross and bearing type joint the same as the ones on the prop shafts, and I think, the same size, but without seals or grease ways. ...<snip>
JohnJohn
The change from tracta joints happened at the change in wheelbase to 86" (end of 1953 production) not the change to selectable 2WD 4WD (early in 1951 production).
Diana

[460cixy]

I am not familiar with Jeeps, nor with Dana axles, but I suspect that they use a Rzeppa type CV U-joint - which is NOT what is used in any Series Landrovers except the Stage 1 Series 3 V8 & Isuzu. 80" Series 1 (and I think only to 1950 or 51) used a Tracta joint, but when they changed from full time to part time four wheel drive, the joint was changed to a cross and bearing type joint the same as the ones on the prop shafts, and I think, the same size, but without seals or grease ways. Even if the swivel is filled with grease, the joints are not necessarily shot, as they will have been unloaded most of the time, but the presence of grease means there is a good chance they have been run dry or had water in, in which case they probably are shot. But they are cheap, readily available, and easy to replace.

John

yeah sounds like how the yanks do it they use a uj but in an open knuckle with a greaseable uj prety strong but the knuckle is open so fills with garbage all the time and kills the joints prety quick. i might bust the whole front axel out monday arvo and strip it down in the work shop and see how much its going to cost to fix up. one worry is the front spring hangers at the front of the chassie are floged out from being loose and one even looks like its been welded back on :(

[series1buff]

Jeeps , well the older WW2 ones , were fitted with either Tracta, Rzeppa or Bendix type Cv joints . The Tracta type is uncommon and only seen on early production Jeeps , they went over the the Bendix and Rzeppa types for mass production. You sometimes come across a mixture on individual vehicles , I think had a Tracta on one side and a Rzeppa on the other side !

In 4WD fokllore, the Tracta is considered to be the strongest and least likely to give trouble or wear out . The other designs feature balls , which are prone to wear .. On some jeeps , as you go into full lock in 4WD , you'll hear a clattering sound from the front end, indicating worn CV joints.

BTW , apparently the UJ joints, as used in post 53 Land Rovers, are not a true CV joint. CV= both shafts , input and output revolve at same speed constantly . Can anyone comment on this ?
Mike

[101RRS]

BTW , apparently the UJ joints, as used in post 53 Land Rovers, are not a true CV joint. CV= both shafts , input and output revolve at same speed constantly . Can anyone comment on this ?
Mike

As far as I am aware they are just a UJ and fulfil no CV function. Hence the change to CVs with contant 4wd landies.

Garry

[chazza]

Yes, that is the case with universal joints Mike.

Tracta joints are constant velocity, as well as being a superb piece of engineering to look at and play with, I can't ever imagine one wearing out unless it was operated in salt water with no oil present.

I suppose the only reason they were discontinued, would have been because of the manufacturing cost.

[JDNSW]

Jeeps , well the older WW2 ones , were fitted with either Tracta, Rzeppa or Bendix type Cv joints . The Tracta type is uncommon and only seen on early production Jeeps , they went over the the Bendix and Rzeppa types for mass production. You sometimes come across a mixture on individual vehicles , I think had a Tracta on one side and a Rzeppa on the other side !

In 4WD fokllore, the Tracta is considered to be the strongest and least likely to give trouble or wear out . The other designs feature balls , which are prone to wear .. On some jeeps , as you go into full lock in 4WD , you'll hear a clattering sound from the front end, indicating worn CV joints.

BTW , apparently the UJ joints, as used in post 53 Land Rovers, are not a true CV joint. CV= both shafts , input and output revolve at same speed constantly . Can anyone comment on this ?
Mike

As I have pointed out twice in this thread, the 86" Series 1 (and all after except Stage 1) used a conventional cross and bearing type U-joint, the same as on the prop shafts. These, unlike any type of CV joint, have no sliding action and do not normally wear or give any trouble in this application provided they are properly lubricated (grease filled swivel housings are dubious, water or mud filled or dry ones are definite causes of failure). The reason for the change from Tracta joints was probably cost, but contrary to your suggestion, they are prone to wear due to the sliding action. With the change to part time four wheel drive, and the assumption that four wheel drive would only be used on soft surfaces, it was considered unnecessary to have CV joints.

The Tracta joint was invented by Gregoire for his Tracta front wheel drive racing cars in the twenties, and was used from then on in many front wheel drive and four wheel drive vehicles. The Jeep, going into mass production in 1942 was probably the first mass produced use of it, as the production numbers would have been higher than Citroen's to that time. I do not know when Jeep changed from them but it was probably in the early sixties. The first user of the now ubiquitous Rzeppa joint was the Mini in 1958, although I think it was invented in the late twenties. Much harder to make than the Tracta joint, but less friction, as there is only second order sliding.

John

[series1buff]

. The first user of the now ubiquitous Rzeppa joint was the Mini in 1958, although I think it was invented in the late twenties. .

John


Hi John ,
The Rzeppa CV joint was actually widely used during WW2 on Jeeps and Dodges, along with the Bendix-Weiss CV design. I don't know the ratio of Rzeppa to Bendix ..but we are talking huge numbers . Total Jeeps + Dodges built over 1,000,000 + the 300,000 odd Canadian built Blitz trucks that used the Bendix design also . Not to mention the 700,000 GMC and Studebaker 6X6 trucks ..it goes on and on !

The pommie WW2 4X4's .....yes, surprising to many people, the Brits made many many thousands of 4X4's before Land Rovers came along . Bedford - Ford - Morris - Humber - Austin - Guy - AEC - Albion - Crossley , the list goes on : I think they used the tracta CV joint on most of them.
Mike

[JDNSW]

Hi John ,
The Rzeppa CV joint was actually widely used during WW2 on Jeeps and Dodges, along with the Bendix-Weiss CV design. I don't know the ratio of Rzeppa to Bendix ..but we are talking huge numbers . Total Jeeps + Dodges built over 1,000,000 + the 300,000 odd Canadian built Blitz trucks that used the Bendix design also . Not to mention the 700,000 GMC and Studebaker 6X6 trucks ..it goes on and on !

The pommie WW2 4X4's .....yes, surprising to many people, the Brits made many many thousands of 4X4's before Land Rovers came along . Bedford - Ford - Morris - Humber - Austin - Guy - AEC - Albion - Crossley , the list goes on : I think they used the tracta CV joint on most of them.
Mike

That is interesting, thanks for the information - I have seen several sources (probably all quoting each other) giving the Mini as the first use. I know that the Weiss joint was used extensively in WW2, though - actually, as far as I can see it is functionally almost the same as the Rzeppa joint, but with only a few balls the load is much more concentrated.

I would expect that the British four wheel drives would have used Tracta joints, although there were a number of prewar front wheel drive British cars which used cross and bearing non-CV joints, as did all WW1 four wheel drives from all countries. But the Tracta joint was widely publicised in Europe and Britain (unlike in the US), particularly by its use in the Citroen Traction Avant, the first mass produced front wheel drive car. Although by about 1936 they had changed to using double cardan joints instead, perhaps because of costs but also perhaps because of lubrication problems of the open joint - one of the things that has made the modern front wheel drive setup practical is the long lasting rubber boot, probably a WW2 development. Not a problem with a live axle four wheel drive.

John

[460cixy]

well i finaly got my finger out and got in to some work today. and striped the r/h swival down. so far the damage is one crome ball pitted dident think it was that bad till i cleaned it up. one uni joint two caps had no needles. does any one have a part number for this? i have unis in the shed caps are same dia but longer and the cross is longer also. wheels brearings are ok lower swival bearing is ok. the top swival seems to be missing the spring and very rusted pitted . the bush in the stub is also floged out im guessing ile have to make one i assume its bronze? im going to sand blast every thing up tomomrow and send the brake shoes away to get rebonded order new wheels cylinders make new brake hoses and machine the drums :)

[series1buff]

one uni joint two caps had no needles. does any one have a part number for this? :)

go to any bearing retailer with your worn out U/S sample and they will measure it at the counter.. It's a bog standard generic UJ ..cheap as chips and made by various aftermarket companies... shop around and try to get a good brand and price .... inspect the new one with caution as there are cheap low quality bearings around being flogged to the unwary.

the 86" onwards type brake hoses are available from 4WD's in Melb. not too dear but not sure about quality either.

The swivel housing/hemisphere cups and tapered bearings again are a generic bearing ..also used on WW2 Dodge 4X4's ..I believe they used to be made here when bearing factories were still economical to run ! I would go for a good brand like SKF or similar and look for the marking MADE IN ????? on them ..if you dont see a MADE IN whatever on them..don't buy them cos they'll be cheap junk. Others will advise you on the upper bearing setup they seem to like the railko idea
Mike

[460cixy]

the bronze bush in theback of the stub where the axel passes what sort of tolerance should it be? mines got about a half mil or clearance i recon its way to loose. otherwise everything is going to plan

[chazza]

the bronze bush in theback of the stub where the axel passes what sort of tolerance should it be? mines got about a half mil or clearance i recon its way to loose. otherwise everything is going to plan

0.020 -0.028"

Cheers Charlie

[460cixy]

thanks for that now to find the bronze. wonder if some other matrial would be suitable

[chazza]

You can buy new ones from parts dealers, they are not expensive,

Cheers Charlie

[JDNSW]

You can buy new ones from parts dealers, they are not expensive,

Cheers Charlie

$2.50 in my Four Wheel Drives catalogue!

John

[460cixy]

oh well thats good to know now after i got the stuff to make it hahaha oh well im sure the shaft is probly worn too so least it will be the exact size. i have orderd my copy of the catalogue should be here tomomrow then i can stop asking stupid questions.