Handbrake conversion to disc : Defender

[dullbird]

Hi Guys

I have contacted the company that make the disc conversion for the handbrake on the defenders.

we have been wanting to put one on the 90 for sometime.....as its a PITA when it gets mud in it and fails

Obviously the more that are brought the more money we get off...and I'm in the process of talking to them in regards to possibly splitting the shipping (for obvious reasons)

this is becoming a very common upgrade in the uk, so I thought people might be interested in a group buy here!

We are only in the talking stages at the moment.....but if your interested post your name in this thread so I can get some ideas on numbers.

at the moment they are 215.00 pounds......but the australian dollar is a touch better with the pound at the moment, that price is also inc VAT which we shouldn't get charged and we will get a small discount on top of that the bigger the discount the more the numbers

it says its for the 90/110 and they do a version that fits the 90/110 with under/over drive and pto the price does vary slightly on the LT95

Lou

[dmdigital]

I might be interested for the Tdi. At this stage I'm not sure if I want to spend any money on the old one though or just keep putting accessories on the Puma. Trouble is the hand brake's stuffed on the Tdi.

At £200 you will only be able to bring 2 in per parcel or you'll get hit with duty by Customs. The AU$'s sitting around 49p at present, so definitely a good time to buy.

I assume this is the X-eng unit?

Keep me posted please.

[dullbird]

I might be interested for the Tdi. At this stage I'm not sure if I want to spend any money on the old one though or just keep putting accessories on the Puma. Trouble is the hand brake's stuffed on the Tdi.

At £200 you will only be able to bring 2 in per parcel or you'll get hit with duty by Customs. The AU$'s sitting around 49p at present, so definitely a good time to buy.

I assume this is the X-eng unit?

Keep me posted please.
yes have thought about that but with the discount and the abcense of vat if we got over 10 units could be looking at nealry 40% off (fingers crossed) if we can get him to post the cost of the items then we may possibly get to squeeze 3 in......will have to chat to him.

We are also thinking of doing it for the PUMA, but I have to confrim that this kit will fit...but we wont be doing that for a while yet

[Blknight.aus]

I suck at conversion rate stuff....

whats the real AUS cost on this...

if you import more than one for onforwarding (seperate orders for delivery to seperate people but delivered to a single person for distribution) you can work around the customs thing...

hunt around for the setup I was going to try out for getting detroit diffs for those going to cooma. (it was canned due to there being no difference in individual shipping costs or bulk shipping)

[dmdigital]

40% off would be a fantastic price. I did look at this a few months ago, but the cost was too much. As for the Puma, I think I'd wait until it was out of warranty, but for a long term option it has to be the way to go.

By the way did you fit your transmission guard yet?

[dmdigital]

I suck at conversion rate stuff....

whats the real AUS cost on this...
Easy Dave at present it's about 49p to $1 so if you multiply the price by 2.1 you get a rough estimate. You can also go to Google and type in: 215 GBP in AUD

[dullbird]

I suck too dave.....

taking off vat and a discount which changes with the amount of units
I worked it out around $266.60 not including postage...........(but please don't quote me on that use it as a rough guide)
the less units the more the discount % goes down and it also depends on the dollar to uk pound not changing

[dullbird]

40% off would be a fantastic price. I did look at this a few months ago, but the cost was too much. As for the Puma, I think I'd wait until it was out of warranty, but for a long term option it has to be the way to go.

By the way did you fit your transmission guard yet?


Dont get to excited with the 40% actually its more like 38% as that is not confirmed but thats what I'm hoping for should we get enough people in

Oh and sorry derek yes this is the X-ENG unit....and looking at the pictures they look very well made from what I can see

[dmdigital]

£215 less 15% VAT = £187
40% discount on £187 = £112
£112 = AU$236

OK if you can get one at that price I might know another person or two who'd be interested:)

[abaddonxi]

For currency conversion you can always go here -
XE - The World's Favorite Currency and Foreign Exchange Site (http://www.xe.com/)

Very easy to remember.

Simon

[dullbird]

£215 less 15% VAT = £187
40% discount on £187 = £112
£112 = AU$236

OK if you can get one at that price I might know another person or two who'd be interested:)


No derek the 38% is inclusive of the 17% uk vat

[dmdigital]

No derek the 38% is inclusive of the 17% uk vat
OK, you can never tell whether it's before or after without asking.

Didn't the UK just drop the VAT to 15%:confused:

[Sleepy]

G'day DB,
I've only read a little about this type of conversion..
I'm half interested but would like to know a little more about them - Do they have a website?

[dmdigital]

X-eng High Performance Off-Road Engineering (http://www.x-eng.co.uk)

[Bearman]

No derek the 38% is inclusive of the 17% uk vat

I have an LT95 and would be interested........Brian

[long stroke]

Heres the one i use:)
XE - Universal Currency Converter (http://www.xe.com/ucc/)

I converted 215EUR to AUS dollars it came in at $429.514;)

CHEERS TIM.

[dullbird]

Heres the one i use:)
XE - Universal Currency Converter (http://www.xe.com/ucc/)

I
converted 215EUR to AUS dollars it came in at $429.514;)
CHEERS TIM.


well considering its pounds not euros and you haven't taken off any discount I can see what you got that price;)....because all you have done is worked out the exchange rate.

I didn't know that the vat had dropped Derek I thought it was still 17.5% oh well if it has then the price goes up a bit.

he has given me some postage quotes but the postage is an absolute killer i'm going to see if I can work it out some other way

[leeds]

My experience of X eng stuff is that overall they are good products.

Have had an X brake on the 110 for a few years now. Had problems initially with the brake pads ringing on the rotating disc when new. Solved by taking pads out and regluing them in position with mastic.

Have managed to bend the brake protection guard through 180 degrees due to it getting caught up in some extremely rocky section in Sweden. No damage to the working parts of the brake though. Apparently this has been redesigned recently

Had to replace the brake cable after 3- 4 years due to stretching it. Pilot error??

Sounds like a lot of negatives BUT brake is less maintainence heavy then the concentional brake drum.

Would I recommend them? Lets say it was one of the first things done to the Disco when we bought it,:p

Can I say more? All the X-Eng stuff appears to be well made and well thought out.


X brakes are getting very popular on comp trucks in the UK for their greater holding power

VAT (GST) in Britain is now 15% down from 17.5%. Exports are VAT free Basic cost is £215.99 (including 15% VAT) or £188.82 excluding VAT

Hope that helps

Regards


Brendan

[long stroke]

well considering its pounds not euros and you haven't taken off any discount I can see what you got that price;)....because all you have done is worked out the exchange rate.

I didn't know that the vat had dropped Derek I thought it was still 17.5% oh well if it has then the price goes up a bit.

he has given me some postage quotes but the postage is an absolute killer i'm going to see if I can work it out some other way

:oops2:

[dullbird]

So far postage cost we are look at approx

around

$149 for one unit
$256.94 two units this works out at $128.47 I think per unit
$463.44 four units this works out at $115.86 per unit but we have the problem of import tax to tackle.
I'm also waiting for a quote back from DHL in the hope that they can do it cheaper per unit.....

$292ish and add 128.47 is around $420/25:(.......sounds alot of money but when you look at individual cost. It is around $526/30

having 4 units posted takes us over the $1000 limit mark buy about $175

i forgot to mention that he does do disco and rangerover conversions too.

I have emailed again asking him to clarify a few things once he does this I should be able to give a more firm price (well provding the $ stays where it is)
and hopefully DHL will come back with a better price also.

[solmanic]

I would definitely be interested when you can confirm that they can be fitted to a Puma.

[dullbird]

I would definitely be interested when you can confirm that they can be fitted to a Puma.

This is what he said:

Yes they do fit, although removing the drum / fitting the new one requires at the very least loosening the exhaust mountings - and in one case removing the middle section of the exhaust. Apart from that, they are very similar to a Td5.

[incisor]

been wanting one of these suckers for ages... top idea

[TwoUp]

I am interested for my Def 300tdi, so I guess that's a Mk2.

Will want to kow $ details prior to purchase.

Good Job!

[rick130]

I can see their usefulness in the UK, but is it really necessary here ? :confused:

(I remember when Jon first developed them and how popular they were/are on LR4x4")

[dullbird]

I can see their usefulness in the UK, but is it really necessary here ? :confused:

(I remember when Jon first developed them and how popular they were/are on LR4x4")

i suppose it really depends on what you do with your car and how reliable the handbrake is......ours isn't reliable one sniff of mud and it fails

[Bush65]

I have the first one that was fitted to a rangie. Damn sight better than the old drum brake that was on it. I also bought one for the bushie.

My hand brakes were not cable operated and I had to get 2nd hand brake levers to suit.

[Blknight.aus]

providing the landed cost stays under $250 Im in, do they do the kit for a series?

[steve_a]

Is the shipping expensive due to weight?
If so, it may be possible to skip the actual disc and get Simon to give the dimensions for them to be manufactured locally.

Simon has put most work into the bracketry to ensure it is strong enough and finding the caliper etc. The disc is just that, a flat disc with a few holes.

I kind of know Simon (evil genius behind X-Eng) and he might go for that kind of idea as it wouldn't impact on his IP or reputation.

[dmdigital]

Looks like the usual issue of freight is the killer. Keep looking around Lou as the first quote I got for a cargo barrier was £369:eek: which was almost twice the price of the item. Suffice to say I got it for a lot less.

[leeds]

So far postage cost we are look at approx

around
[LIST]
$149 for one unit
$256.94 two units this works out at $128.47 I think per unit
$463.44 four units this works out at $115.86 per unit but we have the problem of import tax to tackle.




I have no idea what Australian import duty rates are, but would suggest someone (dullbird?:p) looks into carefully

Currently you are looking at $292 + postage at about £115-$130 talking about final price of $420-425 in Australia then on top of that any internal freight costs.

You are talking very low numbers here i.e. 2-4 units.

A 20 ft container costs about $5000 from UK to Sydney, I have no idea how many units you would get in a 20 ft container but the individual freight costs would drop to less then $10 each. That might be a rather grandiose idea :Dso why not go for something in between? Say a small pallet load? 10+ units say


Freight costs per item would be say in region of $20-40

Import duty ????? Don't ask me

Cost of units would drop below $292 each.

Downside someone needs to do more groundwork re duty/freightage costs/import duties. Longer lead time due to shipping times, need more confirmed interest. Also someone/s is going to have to put money up front.

Upside, cheaper unit costs to indiviuals, possible $$$ profit for someone/s

If it does not work out I will simply say :wasntme:

Just a suggestion, nothing more

Regards

Brendan

[dullbird]

I have no idea what Australian import duty rates are, but would suggest someone (dullbird?:p) looks into carefully

Currently you are looking at $292 + postage at about £115-$130 talking about final price of $420-425 in Australia then on top of that any internal freight costs.

You are talking very low numbers here i.e. 2-4 units.

A 20 ft container costs about $5000 from UK to Sydney, I have no idea how many units you would get in a 20 ft container but the individual freight costs would drop to less then $10 each. That might be a rather grandiose idea :Dso why not go for something in between? Say a small pallet load? 10+ units say


Freight costs per item would be say in region of $20-40

Import duty ????? Don't ask me

Cost of units would drop below $292 each.

Downside someone needs to do more groundwork re duty/freightage costs/import duties. Longer lead time due to shipping times, need more confirmed interest. Also someone/s is going to have to put money up front.

Upside, cheaper unit costs to indiviuals, possible $$$ profit for someone/s

If it does not work out I will simply say :wasntme:

Just a suggestion, nothing more

Regards

Brendan

thanks for the info brendan but please try not to confuse matters with things that simply aren't going to happen....

I also love how everyone keeps working out what I have already told them. The cost you have worked out brendan are already in a post further up:angel:


And dave as for your post mate $250 landed thats less than the actualy unit with out the postage so I'm glad you have been reading the posts that I put the effort in to type:eek:...........

[DirtyDawg]

I suck at conversion rate stuff....

whats the real AUS cost on this...

if you import more than one for onforwarding (seperate orders for delivery to seperate people but delivered to a single person for distribution) you can work around the customs thing...

hunt around for the setup I was going to try out for getting detroit diffs for those going to cooma. (it was canned due to there being no difference in individual shipping costs or bulk shipping)


Here Dave..easy peasy

XE - Universal Currency Converter (http://www.xe.com/ucc/)

[quaddrive]

I'm keen!

[Sleepy]

Thank you for your efforts so far DB.:thumbsup:

I would like to lodge myself "interested" pending final price.

[idletorque]

Lou,

Interested in one for Jil - 200tdi Defender.

I'd suggest some of the TT guys may also be interested, so I'll ask.

Qty vs savings will be a finite number I'd suggest.

Also, is is worth considdering doing a deal with a LR parts importer for a limited run and save some hassles? Just a thought!

Regards,
Greg

[Tombie]

Lou

I'll take one for a Discovery 2 thanks if you can get the price!

[Blknight.aus]

So far postage cost we are look at approx

around

$149 for one unit
$256.94 two units this works out at $128.47 I think per unit
$463.44 four units this works out at $115.86 per unit but we have the problem of import tax to tackle.
I'm also waiting for a quote back from DHL in the hope that they can do it cheaper per unit.....

$292ish and add 128.47 is around $420/25:(.......sounds alot of money but when you look at individual cost. It is around $526/30

having 4 units posted takes us over the $1000 limit mark buy about $175

i forgot to mention that he does do disco and rangerover conversions too.

I have emailed again asking him to clarify a few things once he does this I should be able to give a more firm price (well provding the $ stays where it is)
and hopefully DHL will come back with a better price also.

soooo

(1000+175)/4
=
~293
+
115 or DHL..
=
408 unless DHL is cheaper



And dave as for your post mate $250 landed thats less than the actualy unit with out the postage so I'm glad you have been reading the posts that I put the effort in to type:eek:...........

and byte me for a typo $350 should have been the number....

$ when all said and done >$350 means I cant afford it. so dont count my order
$ when all said and done <$350 I can afford it so count my order.

and as mentioned you can get around the import tax if multiple people purchase seperately but consign all items to one place for further distribution... OR if there is a bulk distribuition order coming from one freight warehouse (in the UK) to another freight warehouse (AUS) the big box turns up, gets seperated and the individual parcels go out from there....

someone, somewhere, at some time already did all this research, I think they were planning on bringing some diffs in from the USA....

[isuzurover]

Thank you for your efforts so far DB.:thumbsup:

I would like to lodge myself "interested" pending final price.

What he said!

[LRO]

Hi

Count me in. (Depending on price)

[dullbird]

soooo

(1000+175)/4
=
~293
+
115 or DHL..
=
408 unless DHL is cheaper



and byte me for a typo $350 should have been the number....

$ when all said and done >$350 means I cant afford it. so dont count my order
$ when all said and done <$350 I can afford it so count my order.

and as mentioned you can get around the import tax if multiple people purchase seperately but consign all items to one place for further distribution... OR if there is a bulk distribuition order coming from one freight warehouse (in the UK) to another freight warehouse (AUS) the big box turns up, gets seperated and the individual parcels go out from there....


someone, somewhere, at some time already did all this research, I think they were planning on bringing some diffs in from the USA....

Yes I get it dave I know you put a lot of work into finding stuff out.......but in all fairness when you wrote this


hunt around for the setup I was going to try out for getting detroit diffs for those going to cooma.
(it was canned due to there being no difference in individual shipping costs or bulk shipping)

I didn't really see the point of persuing as you kind of gave me the impression there was no point!:)

That is why I have been chasing individual shipping costs......more so over bulk....in saying that they are just not working out..


So my next question is would there be any interested parties in recieving a consignment of four to each state? if we have enough people from each state? a bit like we did with the PUMA transmission guards
we think we can get 4 in a consigment talking to the man.....with adjusting a few things, he is happy to work with me! The only other thing I thought about was briging them in on manufacturer samples but they may be a bit necky............

I have just checked the exchange rate and at this point its not looking good

46p to 1 AUD:(

That makes the units $440 delivered to sydney........That is coming in a consignment of 4..................

I think it would be a case of nutting it out getting it already for those that seriously want to purchase and hitting the buy button when the dollar is up.

I will estimate the price being between $415/$450 I have stressed this before it all depends on the exchange rate......As postage once quoted should stay the same, although I'm yet to find out whether there is much difference in cost to other states.

DHL got back to me and for 1 unit they quoted over $600:eek: freight it appears we dont get them juicy discounts unless you have an account with them :BigCry:

[Blknight.aus]

for the diffs there was no point as they broke the Weight/bulk barrier and weighed too much for the item to get cheaper by bulk shipping.

thats the key thing that will make or break bulk/individual to country.

[1103.9TDI]

I've had one of these X-eng disc hand brake for over a year now, and can thoroughly recommend it. I imported it myself, and although it was not cheap, I felt it was a small price to pay, when it comes to the possibility of loosing my vehicle.
It was very easy to fit, and extremely effective in some fairly hairy situations:D and I'm not expecting to do any maintainence on the unit for a fair while. The only hiccup was my own fault; failing to tighten the handbrake cable, the 110 and trailer ended up selfdriving down a riverbank on the OTR, lucky I was out of the way, as I was on my own:eek:. Needless to say, the cable (a simple job, just slack:p) was tightened immediately. Now it would hold in just about any position, and did!.

[rovercare]

Just ordered one:D

[isuzurover]

Just ordered one:D

Direct? I would be interested to know how much $$$. Rovacraft want $650!

[rovercare]

Direct? I would be interested to know how much $$$. Rovacraft want $650!

266 pounds, so around $450, not sure what the bank will charge to pay O/seas if anything, will find out when my card is billed:D

[isuzurover]

266 pounds, so around $450, not sure what the bank will charge to pay O/seas if anything, will find out when my card is billed:D

Including shipping?

[rovercare]

Including shipping?

Yep, total

[reschook]

i have a td5 def and would be interested in 1 please, thanx.
Would also be interested in getting the x brake cable as their website states it required for td5 and 300tdi if this isnt 2to hard.

[rovercare]

Including shipping?

$440.89 to be precise

$13.01 international transaction fee

[Bearman]

$440.89 to be precise

$13.01 international transaction fee

Hi Matt, Any chance of sending me a pm with the details of where I can get one. Thanks.....Brian.

[isuzurover]

Hi Matt, Any chance of sending me a pm with the details of where I can get one. Thanks.....Brian.

Here Brian:

X-eng High Performance Off-Road Engineering (http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Brake.asp?MID=31)

[Rangier Rover]

Looks like I'm ordering one too, almost lost the 120" today:eek: Another story;)
Useless drum hand brakes:mad: They hate mud and water:(

They want a bit for it:eek:

[TwoUp]

I did purchase one via YourkshireJon, it's well worth the money spent and by the way as mentioned earlier adjust it up:o I did after watching the car creep down a small hill, not fast but unsettling all the same.:)

Regards,
PeterW

[VladTepes]

Save me reading 5 pages.. where is thsi at?

It says 90/110 unit - do they not fit a 130 ? What gives ?

[isuzurover]

Save me reading 5 pages.. where is thsi at?

It says 90/110 unit - do they not fit a 130 ? What gives ?

They make them to fit all models. 130's are uncommon in the UK - so that may be why they don't mention them explicitly.

Plenty of us have bought and fitted them. However mine has only worked intermittently since the gibb river rd. Very annoyed. Still need to pull it apart and see what the issue is.

I was very happy with it prior to that.

[Rangier Rover]

Has anyone got one of these in captivity? I need one asap. I'll cover all your cost.:)

I haven't had any joy in contacting this lot as yet let alone the shipping time:(

Thanks Tony

[isuzurover]

Has anyone got one of these in captivity? I need one asap. I'll cover all your cost.:)

I haven't had any joy in contacting this lot as yet let alone the shipping time:(

Thanks Tony

Mine arrived 1-2 weeks after ordering online.

Rovacraft have them in stock if you don't mind paying the extra.

[Rangier Rover]

Mine arrived 1-2 weeks after ordering online.

Rovacraft have them in stock if you don't mind paying the extra.

I'll give the "Sydney" Rovercraft branch a call tomorrow. If they have one think I may have to pay the price. Better than loosing the vehicle again.:eek:

[goingbush]

I know this is an old thread, but rather than start a new one better to add to this.

There is a new improved X-Brake 2.5 version.
ordered 27 November, in the letterbox 3 December, fitted today.

Faster delivery from UK than something form Perth would be. Amazing.
Including a new Handbrake Cable which is needed for Td5 worked out at AU $427.72 delivered.

Must say, this is the first time Ive had a handbrake in any Landrover that has actually worked. Not only does it work Im confident it will easily also hold the Caravan on a slope. You dont have to pull the lever thru the roof either.

Bonus is the handbrake light actually goes off when the handbrake is off, none of this pushing the lever down 2 times and holding it with your leg to stop the light from coming back on.

Also the handbrake is much smaller diameter and no longer hangs below the transfer case.

The caliper is a huge cast steel lump, standard issue on a JCB Tractor, lets say - over engineered, and easily avaliable pads, which btw should last the life of the car.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/991.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/992.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/993.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/994.jpg



For those that say the Original Drum handbrake is fine if you adjust it properly, bollocks , you'd have to adjust it every week, and when you get it so it actually works the shoes rub , get it so the shoes dont rub & it will hardly hold the car on the level.

.

[Tomo]

Hi Goingbush,
What is that on the transfer case? Is that for extra oil capacity?

[dullbird]

that looks sweet goingbush I have never seen them fitted up before makes me want one again!! just out of the budget range for us currently

[Dockstrada]

I was just talking to about changing the H/brake to disk today. I was just on the X-brake websit and I dont know if i need a new cable for the Puma with the kit, can anyone confirm .

[goingbush]

Hi Goingbush,
What is that on the transfer case? Is that for extra oil capacity?

Extended transfer case sump from Roverdrives Canada, more oil capacity and better cooling, If I had a Puma I'd make that number one on the shopping list - they run really hot in the transfer case and reading another thread I see they also have less oil capacity than earlier models because the transfer box is mounted on more of an angle.


I was just talking to about changing the H/brake to disk today. I was just on the X-brake websit and I dont know if i need a new cable for the Puma with the kit, can anyone confirm .

Yes you will need the handbrake cable from X-eng or else retrofit a Tdi 200 cable, dare say the X-eng one is the go.

cheers Don

[Iain_B]

Just fitted up an X-Brake on my Defender this afternoon, not very difficult to do, and I got it when the exchange rate was really good a while ago. I had to buy a new 200TDi handbrake cable, as the newer one don't work. The back of the x-brake is pretty close to a cross member ( 2-3mm) so I'll keep and eye on it and if it look like it is touching, I'll "modify" the cross member a bit to give it a bit more clearance.

It definitely work a whole lot better than the OEM drum brake, easily holding on a very steep curb on just a few clicks on the lever.

Whilst I was underneath, I fitted the extended sump to the transfer case, had to put about 3.2 litres of oil back in. It is now pretty close to the exhaust - about 6mm away to the tip of the fins, and the flange on the exhaust is about 10mm away.

I'll look at wrapping that section of the exhaust to keep the heat out.

[Bearman]

Have to say that I have found the X brake to be less efficient than the standard drum handbrake. The idea is good but the small size of the pads meant it would slip easier than a standard brake setup. Must admit that I gave it the ultimate test with a 3.5 ton Sharkcat on a steep boat ramp and it wouldn't hold as well. On top of that I had a annoying rattle at low speeds which I found out was the pads rattling. So I ditched it and refitted a standard drum handbrake setup, much quieter now and holds better. This is on a LT95 behind a Suzi. Maybe it would have been better with larger pads.

[uninformed]

as far as the caliper used in the x-eng kit being "over engineered"..... you guys do realise that the original drum brake has more area and holding force than that disc right??

I have not had it let me down on hills with my trailer on, ever....the T/case and its brake is about the only thing on my 110 that hasnt let me down.

But each to there own, and yes they would handle water better.

[dullbird]

The drum on the 90 constantly got dirt and crap in it and often failed or seized on which Ian was constantly taking it apart.....which is why he wanted to change it out.

a few people did it in the UK for this very reason. (but then I think we played in mud and crap a hell of a lot more than you guys do here as its more rocks and stuff here).

So hence this thread, however we never actually got round to doing it and as the car is rarely driven now will likely never be done.

[goingbush]

I have no complaints at all about my x-brake, done about 20,000k on it so far and still 3 clicks to on, and without needing Schwarzenegger arms and no handbrake light switch issues as before.

There are online instructions about how to install the pads so they don't rattle.

my old drum brake was either binding or useless on anything but level, the xbrake is one of the best mods Ive done.

[Iain_B]

I got the x-brake after two near misses. The first was when my car rolled out of a parking bay when the handbrake was only on about 3 clicks. I got a phone call from security as it had rolled across, but had not hit the car opposite, and had also missed the pillar. The was after a trip to the beach where drum got full of sand.

Second after a muddy river crossing out near Roper Bar, I pulled over and put the handbrake on, and got out to remove the tarp I had on the bullbar, and the rolled backwards luckily I had turned the wheel hard and it just rolled a bit into the bank, not into the river.

Both times I thought I had pulled it up high enough, but the difference between 4 click and five seems to make a big difference. I have tired to adjust it, but if you get it a bit too tight, then there is lot of drive train rattles and clunks, and it only seems to last a few weeks. I don't feel like having to adjust it every time I come back from the beach. :)

The X-brake seems like more reliable way given what I use my Defender for, and $400 is less than my insurance excess.

[isuzurover]

Have to say that I have found the X brake to be less efficient than the standard drum handbrake. The idea is good but the small size of the pads meant it would slip easier than a standard brake setup. Must admit that I gave it the ultimate test with a 3.5 ton Sharkcat on a steep boat ramp and it wouldn't hold as well. On top of that I had a annoying rattle at low speeds which I found out was the pads rattling. So I ditched it and refitted a standard drum handbrake setup, much quieter now and holds better. This is on a LT95 behind a Suzi. Maybe it would have been better with larger pads.

I have also had a lot of issues with mine. I am at the end of the adjustment and it won't hold on my driveway...

[lowbox]

Had a x-eng disc handbrake in my 90. Definitely better in water/mud where the drum would fill up and wear out of adjustment quickly. I hadn't done heavy towing with it though, but definitely an improvement in muddy off-road conditions.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I have also had a lot of issues with mine. I am at the end of the adjustment and it won't hold on my driveway...

There are three adjustments on then. The first and most obvious is on the cable. As pads wear and/or cable stretches its quite easy to get to the en of the adjustment.

The second is attaching the cable to one of the three holes in the lever arm.

The third method of adjusting is course and so gives you the most "get you in the right area" type of adjustment. Take the unit off and you can rotate the arm around the splined spigot.

To say the brake can't hold the car on the driveway is rubbish. It's simply but adjusted correctly.

Download the install manual from the X-Eng site and have a look at adjusting. It's far more descriptive than above and has pictures!

Good luck.
Jon

Sent using Forum Runner

[Yorkshire_Jon]

... you guys do realise that the original drum brake has more area and holding force than that disc right??...


That's as maybe but the point made is irrelevant.

For whatever reason, the X-Eng unit is much better, more effective and more reliable than the factory unit. It just is!

Sent using Forum Runner

[goingbush]

That's as maybe but the point made is irrelevant.

For whatever reason, the X-Eng unit is much better, more effective and more reliable than the factory unit. It just is!

Sent using Forum Runner

Agreed

the point about the amount of friction material is not valid at all.

Infact, the less material the better the grip, otherwise the pads on disc brakes would be huge, and have you ever seen the clutch friction plate from a Mack truck
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/1488.jpg

[harro]

Count me in Lou.
Towing a camper make me very interested.

Cheers,
Paul.

[dullbird]

Count me in Lou.
Towing a camper make me very interested.

Cheers,
Paul.

Hi Paul

the thread is 4years old:D

[uninformed]

Agreed

the point about the amount of friction material is not valid at all.

Infact, the less material the better the grip, otherwise the pads on disc brakes would be huge, and have you ever seen the clutch friction plate from a Mack truck
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/1488.jpg

umm, I think you need to rethink your last statement....Friction is basically a combination of materials, surface area and pressure. Given the materials are basically the same (drum/disc and pads) It comes down to pressure. Your disc pad needs more pressure to have the same holding force as the larger drum pads.

Forget heat build up etc as this is a holding brake, not a slowing, rotating brake.

Your mack truck gets away with less surface area due to very high forces. I doubt the clutch is operated via a cable and lever ;)

[Bush65]

umm, I think you need to rethink your last statement....Friction is basically a combination of materials, surface area and pressure. Given the materials are basically the same (drum/disc and pads) It comes down to pressure. Your disc pad needs more pressure to have the same holding force as the larger drum pads.

Forget heat build up etc as this is a holding brake, not a slowing, rotating brake.

Your mack truck gets away with less surface area due to very high forces. I doubt the clutch is operated via a cable and lever ;)
Not quite correct.
Friction is a product of 'friction coefficient' and 'normal force'.

'friction coefficient' is a material property usually between 0.35 and 0.5 for brake and clutch linings.

'normal force' is the component of the force perpendicular to the friction surface.

Force = pressure x area

For a given normal force, the pressure is reduced if the area is increased, but the only reason we are interested in pressure for brakes and clutches is for the wear rate, which is a function of pressure x sliding velocity. If the brake doesn't slip there will be no wear to speak of.

With a brake we are interested in the braking torque achieved = friction force x radius. This becomes more complex than this simple equation indicates.

With a clutch or disc brake, where is radius measured? I won't go into a correct determination but it will be somewhere near the radius to the centre of area of the brake pad contact with the disc.

With the drum brake the braking torque is much more complicated, because the issue of leading and trailing shoes affects the outcome, etc., but the effective diameter is usually larger than for a brake disc that fits within the same package envelope. The friction on leading shoes cause the braking force to increase (self energisation), and the reverse happens for trailing shoes.

The disc pad doesn't need more pressure than a drum brake, it needs more force, because the effective radius is less and there is no self energisation like with leading shoes.

However when the force is increased, if the area remains constant, then the pressure will increase as a consequence, but that is a side effect, which does nothing for braking torque.

[uninformed]

thanks John,

I knew when I posted my bit, that it would be open for correction and I was hoping it would.

You said "For a given normal force, the pressure is reduced if the area is increased, but the only reason we are interested in pressure for brakes and clutches is for the wear rate, which is a function of pressure x sliding velocity. If the brake doesn't slip there will be no wear to speak of."

"The disc pad doesn't need more pressure than a drum brake, it needs more force, because the effective radius is less and there is no self energisation like with leading shoes."

I think Im confused haha, What is the difference between pressure and force as we speak here?

What I was trying to say, was that less area isnt more efficent as it needs more force to do the same job. (is that right)

Im thinking the stock drum brake requires less force than the x-eng disc brake to achieve the same braking torque?

[Bush65]

thanks John,

I knew when I posted my bit, that it would be open for correction and I was hoping it would.

You said "For a given normal force, the pressure is reduced if the area is increased, but the only reason we are interested in pressure for brakes and clutches is for the wear rate, which is a function of pressure x sliding velocity. If the brake doesn't slip there will be no wear to speak of."

"The disc pad doesn't need more pressure than a drum brake, it needs more force, because the effective radius is less and there is no self energisation like with leading shoes."

I think Im confused haha, What is the difference between pressure and force as we speak here?

This is a little like the chicken and egg. You can't have one without the other. Pressure in this or any other physical context, is the load (force) acting upon an area, i.e. (pressure = load / area)

This can be transformed into (load = pressure x area) Thus if we know the pressure and area, we could calculate the force. A hydraulic press creates force from pressure, but force is usually a result of some other action.

Load and weight are both forces.

Force = mass x acceleration
Weight = mass x acceleration due to gravity

Note laypeople use the term "weight" when they should use "mass".

We use the SI system of units, where the unit for mass is kg, and the unit for weight/force/load is Newton, a derived unit to simplify using [kg m / second squared], i.e. [mass x distance / (time x time)]

In the old imperial system, the unit for mass is "slug" and the unit for force is "lbf" (laypeople got that wrong as well).

In the old MKS (metre, kilogram, second) system (sometimes called metric system), which was replaced by the SI system, the unit for mass was kg and the unit for force was "pond".

Pressure in a fluid is a different context to what we were talking of but it is still load divided by area. Stress in a material is pressure acting within a solid, but unlike in a fluid it is not equal in all directions.

What I was trying to say, was that less area isnt more efficent as it needs more force to do the same job. (is that right)

I can't tell if you might still be misunderstanding something, or not. We need to totally forget the notion of area and pressure to understand friction and braking - they are "red herrings".

For an example take a box sitting on a level floor. The box has mass and weight. The normal force to solve the friction problem in this case is the weight of the box.

Friction is a reaction, and is the resistance to motion, or impending motion. If no force is applied to try and move the box, the friction force is zero. If we push against the box, but it fails to move (impending motion), the friction force is equal, but in the opposite direction, to the force pushing against the box. As we increase the force the box won't start to move until it is equal to the product of normal force (weight in this example) and the static coefficient of friction between the box and the floor.

It wouldn't matter if the box was sitting on its largest side or its smallest side, the results would be the same (assuming the same material and coefficient of friction on all sides). The pressure would be different between the box and the floor, and will be higher if it is sitting on a small side - as i have said, pressure doesn't change the friction force.

If we add some weight to the box, we increase the normal force, and have to push harder to move it along the floor.

Friction, or friction force is put to good use by brakes and clutches, to resist motion or impending motion. The motion my be linear or rotational. In the case of rotation, it is more convenient to use braking torque (friction force x radius).

Im thinking the stock drum brake requires less force than the x-eng disc brake to achieve the same braking torque?

Yes, if you mean the "normal force", and not the force applied at the brake lever, but only because of the smaller radius where the friction force is acting. It has nothing to do with the area of the friction material.

How the required normal force is produced is a mechanical problem. In both systems, the force applied to the brake lever is transferred and multiplied by a mechanism.

Many people tried and failed to produce a reliable disc handbrake and the reasons were that readily available and reasonably cheap calipers were either incapable of a higher enough normal force, or were not strong enough to withstand those forces.

Hope that helps.

[goingbush]

thanks john, that explains it perfectly.

the effort req to pull on the x-eng handbrake lever is at least half the effort req to pull on my standard drum handbrake. (and it holds about 10x better)

the x-eng caliper also has a much higher mechanical advantage, the lever on the caliper moves a large amount for a very small amount of movement of the pads

The calliper and pads are a standard off the shelf JCB forklift item.
15 920269 JCB Forklift Caliper 15920269 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/15-920269-JCB-Forklift-Caliper-15920269-/350567760041)

[Bush65]

The other thing I should have noted about disc brakes, is that the number of friction surfaces is two. So the total available braking torque = coefficient of friction x normal force x effective radius x number of friction surfaces.

With a drum brake, it is more complicated to explain because the force is not distributed uniformly over the angle subtended by the friction material on the shoes.

Drum brakes can work very well when they are in good condition, but a fair amount of maintenance is required to keep them working in that manner. Uneven wear, binding among the moving parts, contamination, etc. all contribute to reduce their effectiveness.

Disc brakes are well suited to hydraulic pressure or springs applying the needed force, while mechanical application is often less successful, which is why some vehicle have retained drum brakes for the handbrake.