New Computer time...Help!

[feral]

Thanks to KRudd and his educational vision, he has given us funding to declare school edcuational supplies as a tax deductable item. This amounts to 50% for high school students to a total of $750 i.e. spend $1500.

As a result I am looking at upgrading the desktop. I've never really had a fast computer and I'm not that flash on these things either. All the desktop does now is internet, accounts and just general computer work. I do have Photoshop Pro XI which I would like to explore further without having to use the laptop. I do have a 250g backup drive to store all the important bits.

There are two systems I have in mind..

System 1.
Processor:Intel Core 2 Duo E8400Memory:2GB DDR2Hard Disk:Western Digital 320GB 7200RPM 8M SataII Graphics:Gigabyte Nvidia 8600GT 256MB PCIESound:AC'97 6 Channel SurroundNetwork:Integrated 10/100 EthernetOptical Drive:20X Max DVD+/-RW with double layer write capabilityChassis:Panda Midi TowerPorts:USB: 6 ports (4 rear + 2 front) *Max 8 ports
Audio: Front: headphone, microphone; Back: line-in, line-out, microphone, surround, center/LFE
VGA: 1 D-Sub
Legacy: 2 PS/2 Ports, 1 Serial, 1 Parallel
Sata: 4 Supporting Raid 0(Stripe), Raid 1(Mirror), 0+1 and JBOD
Slots:PCIe 16x: 1x PCIe 16X slot for graphics card
PCIe 1x: 1x PCI-Express 1x slot
PCI: 2x PCI slots
Power:450Watt ATX Power SupplyDimension:45 x 55 x 26 cmWeight:±7kg


System 2.
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 System
HIT Online (http://www.hitonline.com.au/shop/product/www.hitonline.com.au)

Intel Core2 Duo E8400 (3 Ghz)
All-In-One Motherboard
2GB DDR2 RAM
250GB HDD
Dual Layer DVD Writer
Black ATX Case (w/Front USB+Audio)


There is a $100 difference between the two units and I do have a spare 256mb PCI video card collecting dust.


Any thoughts on what is suitable...I'm not quite up to speed on these matters :(

[loanrangie]

Either will be alright but i would go for a larger hard drive 500 or 750 gig as you soon fill a 250gig drive with videos etc. Even 1TB drives are fairly cheap but i have heard of failures on these so i'd wait a bit longer on them.

[steveG]

I wont comment on the spec itself, but I'd suggest to check out what the power supply is like.

Some of the small cheap ones can be quite noisy so its well worthwhile spending another $20 or so at build time and getting a better quality one. Usually the better ones have larger fans that spin more slowly so less noise.

Steve

[WhiteD3]

I thought it was 50% once you've spent more than $1500, and I'm sure its means tested.

[loanrangie]

I wont comment on the spec itself, but I'd suggest to check out what the power supply is like.

Some of the small cheap ones can be quite noisy so its well worthwhile spending another $20 or so at build time and getting a better quality one. Usually the better ones have larger fans that spin more slowly so less noise.

Steve

Thats a very good tip and one that i have come to agree with after having some nasty cheap & noisy PSU's, i have a compaq here at work on my desk and its completely silent and built like a brick ****e house.

[feral]

All good points....

I'm onto the PSU angle as Whirlpool has little talk about it being critical with the Gigabyte Nvidia 8600GT video card.

Thats the problem with generic description. I don't even know what I am getting.

As for the funding my interpretation at this stage is 50% of the list of things I can claim. So if I end up claiming $100, our little mate Krudd pays $50.

I'm upgrading and getting on board before the money runs out :p

[HangOver]

IMO if money is tight go for the all in one Motherboard even though I'm not a fan of them myself. What you really want to be looking at is the upgradability in the future. All parts can be upgraded but I expect the CPU 3Gb/Dcore will last a fair while.
I have a 2.4Gb Dcore, (from memory) running 64bit vista and using a cpu monitor it hardly touches the CPU cycles so you'll be fine with a 3Gb.

What I mean is if you are getting a motherboard with x2 ram slots and are putting in x2 sticks of ram you will need to dump the existing ram to upgrade.

Do you have both the motherboard make/model numbers available?

I wouldnt get overly hung up on spec unless you are a keen gamer or do a lot of heavy 3d graphics.

To cut it short go for the better of the two motherboards all the rest can be upgrarded overtime. I suppose the motherboard can too but its easier to throw in extra ram/video the a new mobo.

make sure you ask about an operating system it appears HITonline dont supply windows with the PC. IMO also not sure of the price increase but if its not much got for 64bit vista instead of 32 it has much better memory utilisation, (is that real word, lol).

[Tombie]

I'd spend $1600.00 on an 20" iMac...

Far better unit, will game quite nicely (ok it wont do 6 million frames per second ;) ) but runs everything well..

Runs OS X and WinSlows ... So you can use everything....

You'll love it more than some generic PC...

(And it wont chew electricity like modern PCs do either!!!)

[HangOver]

Just checked its a 2.3 dcore and runs Vista like a dream.
By chance I also run two Nvidia 8600 GT cards I have a 400W power supply and havent had any issues

[HangOver]

hmmm not sure we should start the PC/Apple/OS debate ;)

[Tombie]

hmmm not sure we should start the PC/Apple/OS debate ;)

No debate!

I just converted :cool: 2 workmates and their families to 20" iMacs

They've never been happier...

Photos, Music, Internet, Web Pages....

They're doing it all after less than a week of having them, they've had PCs for years....

Comments... So easy, Runs quicker than my PC, easier to do, just works etc...

I'm just posting a very competitive option....

And 450W is way to low for a modern PC - Think around 800W+ if you want to run more than 1 HDD, Burner, High End VidCard

[Tombie]

Just checked its a 2.3 dcore and runs Vista like a dream.
By chance I also run two Nvidia 8600 GT cards I have a 400W power supply and havent had any issues

How many "auxilary" items.. HDDs, Burners etc.?

My PC couldnt cope... I had to upgrade... Now on Portables so no issues!

900w PSU was about 200W above my useage, but that was it...

Thermaltake Case
6 fans
4x1Tb HDDs
1xBluRay Burner
1xDVD Burner
1xDAT Drive
3Gig DC On ASUS board (cant remember the version!)
2x8600GT
4Gb Ram

[HangOver]

No debate!

I just converted :cool: 2 workmates and their families to 20" iMacs


Just because your a good salesman doesnt make it good product ;)
damn it I said I wouldn't go there lol


Regarding PSU it depends on exactly what you are running really I just double checked mine and I have about 50-60w to spare I'm OK with that. PSU work more efficiently at 80% or more capacity, apparently. The newer Dcore cpus help a lot they quite low energy consumption.
I suppose getting a higher wattage psu wont hurt as it will only draw required current rather than the full 900w.

Sometime I think people see these huge wattage PSU's and top end CPUs and think because their PC is less then its slow and outdated but more consideration should be taken regarding the actual use of the PC. Like I said before mine is only a 2.3Dcore and the CPU doesnt get any where near maxing out the cpu cycles; but then at home all I do is email and surf the net, more or less.

[Tombie]

Just because your a good salesman doesnt make it good product ;)
damn it I said I wouldn't go there lol


Regarding PSU it depends on exactly what you are running really I just double checked mine and I have about 50-60w to spare I'm OK with that. PSU work more efficiently at 80% or more capacity, apparently. The newer Dcore cpus help a lot they quite low energy consumption.
I suppose getting a higher wattage psu wont hurt as it will only draw required current rather than the full 900w.

Sometime I think people see these huge wattage PSU's and top end CPUs and think because their PC is less then its slow and outdated but more consideration should be taken regarding the actual use of the PC. Like I said before mine is only a 2.3Dcore and the CPU doesnt get any where near maxing out the cpu cycles; but then at home all I do is email and surf the net, more or less.

Yes, we agree there... High power isnt the most with PCs ... Except for "power junkies"

Not a good salesman - Let them play on the MBP I have and they were impressed - So followed it up by themselves and liked them...

In the end, I'd recommend getting what is affordable, and does what you need... Everything is outdated within months anyway!

My MBP is first Generation.. Core Duo 2.0Ghz... And like yourself, never get near maxing the CPUs out. Unless doing a high graphic job in CS3

[d@rk51d3]

Recently picked up on "fleabay" the following brand new system.

Intel Quad core 2.88
4 GB 1066 RAM (Kingston)
Nvidia 8800GT - 1 GB
500 GB Seagate HDD
860w PSU
LightScribe DVD burner

all in a nice case for $1500

Forked over another $200 for Vista Home Premium 64 bit.

Latched in my 2 other HDD's from my previous system, and she's running sweet as.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Here's one from left field--

buy one from your LOCAL PC guy,, pay a bit more,,
get better service, better warranty, better advice,

[whitakerb]

I bought a $1200 dell a year ago, and it is still as fast as the day I bought it. I did however remove all the dell software straight away. I am running a 305 watt PSU, 3HDDs, 3GB ram, TV card, Burner, 3 Fans, and A nvidia hd 4850. Hasn't blown up yet, doesn't even run hot.

I have never heard a good thing about dell but but the only thing I have been able to fault is the size of the case. I had to shop around to find a 512 Graphics card that would fit inside the original case.


Cheers

[d@rk51d3]

Here's one from left field--

buy one from your LOCAL PC guy,, pay a bit more,,
get better service, better warranty, better advice,

I hear what you're saying, and I did try.

I couldn't bring myself to spend the extra grand though.

[djhampson]

Here's one from left field--

buy one from your LOCAL PC guy,, pay a bit more,,
get better service, better warranty, better advice,

Problem is how do you know the Good Local PC guys from the bad?

I recommend a Dell system, taking out the option of an extended warranty. See my thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/72689-dell-laptop-good-customer-service.html)about my experience with Dell and a warranty claim.

Dad bought a new Dell desktop in May and it is well spec'd, properly installed and configured and fast.

[feral]

Ok. Stop chatting amongst yourselves and start spending my money ;)

Now, where were we......





System 2.
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 System
HIT Online (http://www.hitonline.com.au/shop/product/www.hitonline.com.au)

Intel Core2 Duo E8400 (3 Ghz)
All-In-One Motherboard
2GB DDR2 RAM
250GB HDD
Dual Layer DVD Writer
Black ATX Case (w/Front USB+Audio)


IMO if money is tight go for the all in one Motherboard even though I'm not a fan of them myself. What you really want to be looking at is the upgradability in the future. All parts can be upgraded but I expect the CPU 3Gb/Dcore will last a fair while.
I have a 2.4Gb Dcore, (from memory) running 64bit vista and using a cpu monitor it hardly touches the CPU cycles so you'll be fine with a 3Gb.

What I mean is if you are getting a motherboard with x2 ram slots and are putting in x2 sticks of ram you will need to dump the existing ram to upgrade.

Do you have both the motherboard make/model numbers available?




I have contacted Hit and they provided the M/B info and power supply.

"The E8400 PC Sys, comes with MSI G31M3 L V2 motherboard & 550w Power supply."


Now the screen I have picked out is a BenQ22"WideScreen HD with HDMI Input. According to Hit the video card should be a nVidia 8400GS 512MB HDMI. Whirlpool has a fare amount of talk that a 512mb card should be sufficient for any LCD monitor.

I am not into gaming or anything like that BUT I just want to future proof the computer. At this stage it will run XP with the jump to Windows 7.

Almost there...:confused:

[loanrangie]

Problem is how do you know the Good Local PC guys from the bad?

I recommend a Dell system, taking out the option of an extended warranty. See my thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/computers/72689-dell-laptop-good-customer-service.html)about my experience with Dell and a warranty claim.

Dad bought a new Dell desktop in May and it is well spec'd, properly installed and configured and fast.


They all use the same components so it doesnt really matter where you get it from as long as they honour the warranty, your local chinese pc shop will be cheaper than most big dept. type stores.

[HangOver]

"The E8400 PC Sys, comes with MSI G31M3 L V2 motherboard & 550w Power supply."
Now the screen I have picked out is a BenQ22"WideScreen HD with HDMI Input. According to Hit the video card should be a nVidia 8400GS 512MB HDMI. At this stage it will run XP with the jump to Windows 7.

From looking at the specs of your monitor and video card they are both suited pretty well. So no worries there.

Its a good price $600 ex OS & monitor and the CPU you get is pretty good for the price you are paying.

The only draw back I think is maybe the motherboard or more specifically the ram the motherboard accepts its maximum is 4GB of DDRII.
In general 4GB will run most things these days but moving to Windows7 I'm not too sure, might be fine, might not. I havent run windows7 yet so cant really say for sure but Windows7 is "supposed" to run better than vista. The minimum specs for Vista I think is 512mb ram and with W7 its 1GB. We all know Vista on 512 would be silly. Anyhow ...................

To cut it short as I can consider swapping the board for one that will accept more than 4GB and before anyone starts with "I have W7 running on 256mb ram and an oily rag" I run vista at home on 4GB and XP at work on 3GB, (more or less) and they seem fine. BUT if you want it future proof as much as you can I would be looking for something that will accept more than 4GB IMO, DDRII, DDR3 doesnt really matter, DDR3 will cost more but will run, (arguably) faster.

One other thing consider upgrading to 4GB, (x2 2GB) chips now as DDRII at the moment is pretty cheap.

I just a thought you could just buy the system as is and when the time comes to upgrade just buy a new motherboard, chances are it will be newer technology and cheaper. Depends which way you want to go I suppose.

Good Luck anyhow

[HangOver]

one other thing I strongly recommend if buying from a small vendor buying local it will save hours or weeks of hassle if you need to return the system if the warranty is back-to-base. If the warranty is onsite it doesn't really matter.

[steveG]

one other thing I strongly recommend if buying from a small vendor buying local it will save hours or weeks of hassle if you need to return the system if the warranty is back-to-base. If the warranty is onsite it doesn't really matter.
x2 for that.
At work we buy all our PC's from a local supplier who builds them on his premises. Reasonable pricing (not super cheap) but on the rare occasion that we've had a warranty issue we've usually got it fixed and back within a day. Sometimes the part has even been replaced while we wait.

Our notebooks come from one of our main equipment suppliers, but we always buy extended on-site warranty with those so its not a problem.

Steve

[feral]

Just one final bit of info.

As the BenQ is HD and it can run a HDMI input, I need to have an additional video card instead of using the onboard stuff so its an extra $65 or so.

I notice that if I upgrade to the next spec computer the motherboard already has a HDMI output on board so I could run it direct.

The CPU changes though. One uses a 3.0mhz Core 2 Duo and the other a 2.3mhz Core 2 Quad. So which CPU is faster? I will eventually upgrade RAM to 4g but for an extra $100 I can go to this.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 PC System
HIT Online (http://www.hitonline.com.au/shop/product/www.hitonline.com.au)

Features:
Intel Core2 Quad Q8200 (2.3 GHz)
HDMI/DVI Motherboard Output
Nvidia Onboard video card
3GB DDR2 RAM
320GB HDD
Dual Layer DVD Writer


Just noticed it has a bigger hard drive too.

As I have stated before. All I want to do is to future proof the computer for 7 years at least.

[JDNSW]

I have been following this thread with interest, as I am thinking about a new system at some stage. But really, I have trouble justifying it, as the one I have seems to do everything it is asked to do (mainly internet, wordprocessing, accounting, photoediting, scanning) with little sign of being short on power. Most speed problems I encounter seem to be things like reading from DVDs, satellite link etc. And it is only a 2.8 Celeron with 1GB memory and a couple of 50Gb hard drives. So what are people doing that needs all this compute power? But then I do not run Windows.

John

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Yes, John, there is no doubt windows is a bit of a resource hog,,

SEVEN years Feral???:eek::o:eek::o
It may be still running in 7 years, (maybe) but running what?

you can double the future proofing by doubling the cost,,

or,, to put it another way,, low cost(not cheap) PC's are that because they use parts already mass produced,, near the end of their SKU life. Bleeding edge PC's are already two-3 generations ahead and therefore "that" much more future proof,,

I hope this made sense--:angel:

[Chucaro]

I think that you have selected a good system.
If the shop is an authorised Intel dealer you will have one of the best warranties in the market.

I am using an Intel PC with 4 gig ram and Western Digital hard drives for my photo processing using very extensive image processing software and filters.

There is not another manufacturer of HDD that are going to give you the service of WD.

Last year in my other PC the control board in one of the HDD blow out. I have a lot of images there that I processed during the day and do not have time to back them up.
I sent a email to WD in USA one Friday with the details and photos on the HDD and board. The following Monday I received via Singapore a new board on priority express courrier free of charge :eek:
They processed the order duting the week end :eek: You cannot beat that ;)

Cheers

[Chucaro]

I have been following this thread with interest, as I am thinking about a new system at some stage. But really, I have trouble justifying it, as the one I have seems to do everything it is asked to do (mainly internet, wordprocessing, accounting, photoediting, scanning) with little sign of being short on power. Most speed problems I encounter seem to be things like reading from DVDs, satellite link etc. And it is only a 2.8 Celeron with 1GB memory and a couple of 50Gb hard drives. So what are people doing that needs all this compute power? But then I do not run Windows.

John

Well I am using image processing software where some times I have 3 files of 250 MB each open at the some time doing very heavy image processing on them.

Anything less that 3 gb ram would crash the PC

I cannot use any other OS because they do not run my software

[feral]

I have been following this thread with interest, as I am thinking about a new system at some stage. But really, I have trouble justifying it, as the one I have seems to do everything it is asked to do (mainly internet, wordprocessing, accounting, photoediting, scanning) with little sign of being short on power. Most speed problems I encounter seem to be things like reading from DVDs, satellite link etc. And it is only a 2.8 Celeron with 1GB memory and a couple of 50Gb hard drives. So what are people doing that needs all this compute power? But then I do not run Windows.

John

Exactly. I agree with you. I wanted to spend about $400 - $500 max.

I was almost going to buy a Goverment desktop box for about $200 which would have been perfect for all the processing power I need. But then I added a screen so it comes to $450 ish. Then add a little ram to speed it up.

Then the government said..we'll pay half :eek: so I stuck to my $400 ish budget.

It just exploded :D



Yes Pedro, I understand what you meant. I was most likely a little ambitious to expect it to last 7 years, specification and program wise. With the cheaper components it wouldn't last that long either. Most computers are out of date as soon as you walk out of the shop :p

With me it takes about 7 years before I get bored with it all.

[loanrangie]

No such thing as future proofing with pc's, as soon as you leave the shop it will be outdated, but saying that as long as you are not a gamer or into animation or other high load /processing activities you should get 3 years out of it - and 320gig is too small for a hdd, a 500gig sata is only $85 so may add $20 on top of your 320g hdd or budget for a 2nd hdd later on.

[HangOver]

Dual core v quad core
Hmmmmm now there’s an interesting question, OK so maybe not interesting but here goes anyway.
In theory a quad core will beat a dual core hands down.
Its like shoving a 2L 4pot against a 4L V8 the V8 is going to win as it simply has more CC’s. Lets not get bogged down with the analogy lest assume the engines are both petrol and both from Land Rover and the same year ;)

Anyhow the quad should win BUT at the moment most, (not all) software is not coded to specifically take into account the additional cores so what you have just done is pulled off two ignition leads. But hey it’s a V8 its still going to limp past the line first.

Then you have to consider the architecture of the board and memory, what’s happening with a quad core, presuming its fully utilized by the application, its trying to shove twice as much data down the bus as it does with a dual core. So now you have a nice fast V8 but your stuck in sand, and in sand its more about the gears and driving ability than the horses and because the dual core and quad core use the same transmission, (trust Land Rover) then you are neck and neck.

At the moment, here comes the but ………

IF software companies decide to make full use of the quad core and produce code accordingly then they just shoved the ignition leads back on and towed you out of the sand and onto tarmac, then they threw in a set of racing slicks, but land rover being land rover didn’t bother changing the transmission so it gets hot now and again but will still beat the pants of the 2L.

In reality, at the moment given that both processors are about the same price the dual core should be that little bit better value as its faster with day to day applications like MS office and playing games but the quad core will be faster at stuff that can multi-thread like video encoding/editing. With a bit of luck however programmers will learn the error of their ways and change the way they code then you wont see the dualcore for your dust cloud.

Still not an easy choice but hope it helped a bit.

**it would be useful to know what motherboard they are putting in the other system.

[Ruslan]

Probably I'm late, anyway desided to post my budget custom PC config:

1. Mobo - Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3R (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2921)
2. CPU - Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 (comparison charts (http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2008-q1-2008/3D-Studio-Max-9,369.html))
3. Video - Gigabyte ATI HD4670 GV-R467D3-1GI (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/VGA/Products_Overview.aspx?ProductID=2970)
4. RAM -Kingston HyperX 4GB KHX8500D2K2/4G (http://www.kingston.com/hyperx/products/khx_ddr2.asp#1066d)
5. Power Supply - Corsair VX-450 450W
6. HDD - Western Digital 3.5" Caviar Green Power 1TB WD10EADS
7. CPU Fan - Arctic Cooling 92mm, ceramic bearing.

Total $1012.00. All go in my old case, dvd burner already there. MacOSx86(Leopard), Photoshop, Final Cut Studio.

Listed CPU paired with Kingston HyperX (or similar) capable to run safely at ~3.8-4GHz. The more the better for encoding. And better for Photoshop, which is 2D application and can't really use multicore, so quad core not in my list - expensive, overkill. The motherboard takes some upper CPUs, if I'll need it can be upgraded later.

My wife just ordered Apple MacBookPro 17" (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/features-17inch.html) (educational discount, I can't do it :twisted: )

It is time to upgrade!

[feral]

Yep, your right. Too late.

Mobo - MSI G31M3 V2
CPU - Intel Core 2 Duo 8400
Video - Gigabyte 9500gt Overclock GV-N95TOC-512I
Ram - 4G 800mhz
Power Supply - 550W
HDD - Seagate 250gb
Monitor - Benq E2200 HD with HDMI input - Brilliantly beautiful.
Cooling - big fan...spins round and round :D

Permission to spend more........


REFUSED :mad:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

always worth a look if you are in the market--
Best Graphics Cards For The Money: Feb. '09 : January Review/February Updates - Review Tom's Hardware (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-radeon,2151.html)

[loanrangie]

Yep, your right. Too late.

Mobo - MSI G31M3 V2
CPU - Intel Core 2 Duo 8400
Video - Gigabyte 9500gt Overclock GV-N95TOC-512I
Ram - 4G 800mhz
Power Supply - 550W
HDD - Seagate 250gb
Monitor - Benq E2200 HD with HDMI input - Brilliantly beautiful.
Cooling - big fan...spins round and round :D

Permission to spend more........


REFUSED :mad:

Spend the extra few bucks and get a 500gig hdd.