Vic Bushfires

[Bytemrk]

14 Dead in Vic Bushfires :(

14 dead in Victorian inferno - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/07/2485255.htm)

Looks like it's going to be a pretty wild night and a long few days for some...

Hope all from here are safe....

Mark

[Shonky]

Oh god... :(

That is truely tragic. Were they mostly Fire fighters?

[V8Landy]

It is an awful day for sure. A friend of mine at Wandong almost lost there house they can't get in yet to inspect any damage. Hope all are well from here and feel so sorry for those that have lost houses and loved ones.:(

[p38arover]

Six have been killed at Kinglake, four at Wandong, three at Strathewen and one at Clonbinane. Police fear up to 40 people may have died.


Hell's Bells! That is awful news! I hope it's wrong.

[bblaze]

my heart goes out to all concerned, sky said it could be as high as 40.
blaze

[V8Ian]

Another Ash Wednesday, I hope there are no more fatalities. People have lost everything, they will need a hand to start again, let's all dig as deep as we can afford to when the inevitable appeals start. To all in the affected areas, be careful & stay safe.

[Bushie]

Certainly not looking good. :(

I'm currently arranging crews to head from here down to Vic for a 5 day commitment.

Hopefully we wont have to go through it tomorrow.


Martyn

[sschmez]

I didn't catch the news. Did they get the gusty NW winds and 45deg temps that were forecast?

sure did, hottest Melb temp on record (46.4, I think it was)
I read 47 off my thermometer here too.

Went shopping in FTG today ... noticed the smoke increasing and then the hill was in flames ... not nice, 5 mins from home (Boronia = Suburbia)

Thoughts to those affected and thanx for the great job the Emergency services do.

Stevo

[Sleepy]

Onya Bushie, I think we'll need the help.

Whilst I was driving home I saw some teams/vehicles heading up from Aireys inlet and Inverloch to help out to the north.

:twisted:A Very Nasty Day :twisted:

47.6 degrees at Laverton (SW of Melb) and 25 to 35 knot northerly winds.
I was at work (Tullamarine) and the sky was brown/grey.
The smell of smoke was very strong.
Stepping outside was like opening an oven door! (Fan Forced!)

Reminded me of Ash Wednesday of 1983.:(:o

The southerly came through but was just a wind change - Temperature dropped a lot but no rain :(

The fire to the north of Melbourne spread in a south easterly direction fanned by the wind. With the wind change this has created a 20km front :o (or bigger ?)

Kinglake got clobbered. More fires to the north west (Bendigo) and west (Horsham) and the fire down near Taralgon continues.

We could do with some of that water from Ingham;)

[Bushie]

Onya Bushie, I think we'll need the help.


I was at work (Tullamarine) and the sky was brown/grey.
The smell of smoke was very strong.
Stepping outside was like opening an oven door! (Fan Forced!)

Reminded me of Ash Wednesday of 1983.:(:o

The southerly came through but was just a wind change - Temperature dropped a lot but no rain :(




Mate I feel for you.

I was doing firie training at Tulla on Ash Wednesday - we ended up at Mt Macedon (thankfully after the fire).

Bushie

[JDNSW]

Hell's Bells! That is awful news! I hope it's wrong.

Unfortunately, as daylight comes, everything is suggesting that not only is it right, but it is worse than that, a lot worse. Brumby is saying it is the worst day in Victoria's history.

I have heard nothing to suggest that any of those killed are firefighters, which means they will be residents or possibly travellers, maybe rubberneckers, although it seems to have mostly happened so quickly that there would not be many of them.

John

[Disco300Tdi]

25 now confirmed dead this morning and the toll will rise..

[87County]

this is terrible news...

our condolences to all affected ..... it's hard to know just how best to help from this distance...

[p38arover]

I don't know what to say. :(

I feel like uttering an expletive. How the heck do so many die in bushfires? I haven't watched the news in the past couple of weeks so I haven't seen any pics of the fires.

The 'Net mentions the possibility of up to 40 deaths. That's appalling news.

[87County]

ABC Vic has a help offer /needed line

good to see the response..


Victoria: Offer help - or ask for it. (http://blogs.abc.net.au/victoria/2009/02/offer-help---or.html)

[Bushie]

How the heck do so many die in bushfires?

The 'Net mentions the possibility of up to 40 deaths. That's appalling news.
Not wanting to pre-empt anything but at least a significant portion seem to be reported as deaths in cars, ie. people are misreading how bad things would be (and you couldn't blame a lay person for that) and evacuating at the last and wrong time.

It's a message that we try to get out.

Make evacuation plans and if the decision is to evacuate, then do it early.
One of the worse things is to try and evacuate yourself as a fire impacts. Disorientation, panic, poor visibility all become an issue, many fatalities are possibly vehicle accidents that then become over run by the fire.

This appears to have been an extremely fast moving series of fires.


Martyn

[CraigE]

I read about it yesterday and on the forum last night and just could not comment. If any of the fires that people have been killed in have been deliberately lit, unprintable for a bit here.
It is about time our stupid governments started taking this seriously and penalising arsonists properly. Compulsion and mental disorders hold no weight in this area.:mad:
My sincerest thought go out to the families of the victims, nothing I can say will help relieve your anguish, but we are all with you.
:(:(:(:(:(:(

[numpty]

What can you say. Devastating news. Our thoughts are with them all.

[p38arover]

Not wanting to pre-empt anything but at least a significant portion seem to be reported as deaths in cars, ie. people are misreading how bad things would be (and you couldn't blame a lay person for that) and evacuating at the last and wrong time.

It's a message that we try to get out.

Make evacuation plans and if the decision is to evacuate, then do it early.
One of the worse things is to try and evacuate yourself as a fire impacts. Disorientation, panic, poor visibility all become an issue, many fatalities are possibly vehicle accidents that then become over run by the fire.

This appears to have been an extremely fast moving series of fires.


Martyn

I guess that us lay people are unsure of how safe/unsafe a car is in a fire.

Assuming one is on a major road, stopped, and protected from radiation, is one relatively safe?

[amtravic1]

I guess that us lay people are unsure of how safe/unsafe a car is in a fire.

Assuming one is on a major road, stopped, and protected from radiation, is one relatively safe?

I belive the information given to the public to stay in the car is just so it is easy to find the bodies. In reality, in a major fire you have no chance in a car.
I was in the SES in the Ash Wednesday fires and part of our job was to warn people to leave before the fires then do a body search afterwards. Glad I am not part of that now.

Ian

[p38arover]

For protection against radiation, I was thinking of a space blanket.

[V8Ian]

I know its a big country but it is so hard top comprehend that one end of the country is being devastated by fire and the other flooding

Unbelievably Ingham yesterday copped 200mm rain in an hour....after just starting the cleanup after a week of flooding they are once again under water and totally isolated :( A whole town wiped out by flood up north and whole towns like Maryville wiped out by fire down south.

If only we could send the water down south.

And here it is calm and pleasant....it just doesn't make any sense does it?

The three bears syndrome; again shows there's nowhere better than SEQ to live.

On a serious note I am prepared to Co-ordinate an appeal for the victims of the horrific events in Victoria at the moment.
Even if these people are fully insured there will be cost to them. Let's be Australian and give them a hand, they'll need it. I'll start a new thread to see how much support AULRO can muster.

[mcrover]

My cousins husband walked into their place at Wandin today to find the house gone but stables and horses are ok.

They didnt have time to get the horses out so Steve cut the internal fences to give them the best chance possible which seems to have worked.

Ive also familly in Kinglake no one has heard from so were hoping they are Ok and lots of freinds around the Healsville/Marysville area that we're hoping are ok.

I've never seen anything like it, they used out farm for fire bombing during ash wednsday fires but I think I was too young to get the full effect of the devistation butit really hits home now.

Also there was a fire in Narre Warren in the old quarry yesterday which too 3 houses which started from a transformer blowing up from being over loaded on the entrance road to the Golfcourse I work at.

Thankfully there is little damage to the course other than while the gates were open, some brainiak decided to come in and do some doughnuts on the greens nursery.

[sclarke]

What a day, i was working all day and it was hot, i got called out again at 7pm to get the AC's going at the Shire offices and several CFA/SES buildings needed help as well.
i spent the evening at a mates place helping with fire pumps and generators. The closest fire to him was 1km away. not close, but close enough that embers still glowing were setting his paddocks on fire.

I feel for all who lost there property and lifes and its a sad day indeed.
I know of several who have lost there business and propertys and i hope that we as a community can pull together to help them.

Clarkie

[p38arover]

And to think some of these fires may have been started deliberately. If the arsonists are found and the fire they started caused deaths, they should be tried for murder, not manslaughter.

[George130]

The footage lat last night was amazing. The speed of those fires would have given you no hope.
Glad we still have not had anything like it round here.

[Hucksta]

i just heard on 3AW radio that they are expecting to find possibly another 20 people dead in the fires around Kinglake, that's on top of the 26 already confirmed. Terrible news man ......

[SPROVER]

My Aunty lives in the middle of Kinglake.She doesnt even know yet if she has lost her house:(:( She probably wont know for another day or two.Its not looking to good though.I feel for all those people who lost everything.

[Bushie]

I guess that us lay people are unsure of how safe/unsafe a car is in a fire.

Assuming one is on a major road, stopped, and protected from radiation, is one relatively safe?



“It is with extreme caution that people should be given advice about taking refuge in their vehicle in a bushfire. This research shows that sheltering inside a vehicle is a high risk strategy and that it is highly unlikely that a person will survive in all but the mildest circumstances.”
““Whilst sheltering inside a vehicle offers a slightly higher chance of survival than being caught in the open, the current policy of preparing your home, and deciding early whether you stay or go, is a much safer option. It is essential that all people likely to be exposed to bushfire risk realise this.”
Bushfire CRC - Research - (http://www.bushfirecrc.com/research/d11/vehicle.html)

http://www.youtube.com/v/l59Os-LNm5Y


Martyn

[tasi devil]

just found out mate and his wife are safe, they lived at Kilmore , car melted on way out .lost his house, business, 2 vehicles, 30 odd dogs, 27 horses. they were told had a coupla hours ...it just came out of nowhere 15min all gone .
apparently insured, but considering how much they loved their animals i'm guessing that would be the last of their concerns
i feel really sad , i can't imagine what they are feeling right now. my thoughts are with them, as well as everyone else affected.
saw it on the news this morning, and apparently some a....oles have lit some of them up. i'd be looking for a strong rope and the last remaining tree !!!.

.........tasi

[rovercare]

And to think some of these fires may have been started deliberately. If the arsonists are found and the fire they started caused deaths, they should be tried for murder, not manslaughter.

Unfortunately its not murder without intent to kill:(

[p38arover]

Unfortunately its not murder without intent to kill:(

Yes, I know. That's the problem. Maybe our laws need rewriting to have Murder in the nth degree like the USA.

Now 65 dead! If the fires were deliberate, that's mass murder.

[Disco300Tdi]

Unfortunately its not murder without intent to kill:(


Brumby was just saying on the news "If a fire has been deliberatly lit, and someone dies, then it is a murder charge and 25 years"

[rovercare]

Yes, I know. That's the problem. Maybe our laws need rewriting to have Murder in the nth degree like the USA.

Now 65 dead! If the fires were deliberate, that's mass murder.

Individual fires, so there is a few culprits:mad:

[rovercare]

Brumby was just saying on the news "If a fire has been deliberatly lit, and someone dies, then it is a murder charge and 25 years"

25 years.........for destroying so many peoples homes and lifelyhoods, not a big enough price to pay:(

[THE BOOGER]

Unfortunatly Brumby is a polly the courts/magistrates have different idea, they will look at the writen law not what public think it should be.

[dullbird]

i thought it is only murder if it was pre-meditated......if it was lit by accident and someone died it would be manslatter...or at least thats what I thought

[THE BOOGER]

I think they mean arsonists who lite fires and sit back and watch as people risk their lives saving others and their homes.The best you will get out the courts is reckless endangerment or something like it.:mad:

[p38arover]

I think they mean arsonists who lite fires and sit back and watch as people risk their lives saving others and their homes.The best you will get out the courts is reckless endangerment or something like it.:mad:

You've been watching too many US TV pursuit shows! There maybe an offence of reckless conduct.

Pic from NASA:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20090207/621Australia_Wildfires_NY111_597429707022009.jpg

[p38arover]

i thought it is only murder if it was pre-meditated......if it was lit by accident and someone died it would be manslatter...or at least thats what I thought

I'm not sure what the definition of murder is - I doubt it has to be premeditated but maybe it has to be deliberate killing. Where's a lawman when you need him?

Otherwise it probably is manslaughter whether it was lit by accident or deliberately.

Wait....

NSW Law: Crimes Act 1900 Section 18

(a) Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life, or with intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s4.html#grievous_bodily_harm) upon some person (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s4.html#person), or done in an attempt to commit, or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime punishable by imprisonment for life or for 25 years. (b) Every other punishable homicide shall be taken to be manslaughter

I wonder about the bit "was done .... with reckless indifference to human life" applying to arson.

[barney]

got the news that my wife's uncle has lost everything, don't know the exact location, but he was right in the middle of it.
i've been watching the news all day, in-laws are on the edge of the peat's ridge fire, luckily not in the path but waiting for the wind change tonight.

sort of puts a damper on my intended trip to the high country and the 4wd show in two weeks, but when so many people have lost so much, it's rather insignificant.

59 people dead and every time i hear a news report, it goes up!
unbelievable!:mad:

[timaus13]

I prey 4 all the firefighters and volunters, as well as property owners.
Tragic to say the least.:(:(:(:(

[THE BOOGER]

We may not have reckless endangerment but we should have.Reckless inderfference is pretty close,should have long prison term to go with it and if nessesery medical treatment if they claim mental impairment.

[SIImad]

I was CFA during the Ash Wednesday fires, that incident was bad, but it pales into insignificance with this latest round of fires, and theres more to come.

I'm still waiting to hear from friends living in St. Andrew's who run an Airedale Terrier kennel. I am hoping they came through safely as the news has mentioned nothing about the fire touching that part of the area(just down the road from Kinglake). I guess we all just hold our breath and hope our friends and loved ones are OK.

In the town where I am currently living, a fire lieutenant was charged and convicted of arson for lighting fires in bushland on numerous occasions. All he got was a community based order--where's justice? :mad:

A.J.

[SPROVER]

I just found out about half an hour ago that my Aunty lost her house in the Kinglake fire.Thankfully her and the young ones got out in time.A few minutes later and she may not have been here.

[SIImad]

I just found out about half an hour ago that my Aunty lost her house in the Kinglake fire.Thankfully her and the young ones got out in time.A few minutes later and she may not have been here.

Thank goodness she and her young ones are safe, we don't need any more tragedy.

[DiscoTDI]

After just watching the news, I can only imagine what it must be like. This is a tragedy, our thoughts go out to everyone involved. :(

[Bytemrk]

Sounds like the numbers are getting far worse..:(

The news just stated 66 confirmed Dead, 700 + houses lost.

I was talking to a CFA mate today who is based near the Wondong / Kinglake fires. He and his team have spent much of today checking properties and cars... told me they found 6 bodies today..:(

Horrible situation... I have incredible respect for the Volunteers involved.

Stay safe people.......

[Bytemrk]

and lots and lots badly injured.......:(
Being in ED in the midst of such a disaster is no fun :( Director of ED of one of the large Melbourne Hospitals said they admitted 8 people to ICU with severe burns last night and 12 others with less serious injuries....this count could go very high :(

NM,

The only positive if you can find one , is that the Alfred hospital has JUST opened a specialist burns unit. - so at least these poor people will be getting the very best care possible.

I believe they have put the Alfred on bypass, so other none fire related emergencies are being sent to other hospitals. ( The Alfred has a helipad, so I guess that's how they are getting many of the worse victims in.)

Sounds like the ED team will be damn busy..:(

Mark

[stevo68]

Bloody hell...just got back from a weekend of camping and saw this in the papers and then this thread. My sentiment as of many....hope those of you, families, friends etc stay safe,

Regards

Stevo

[DiscoStew]

Likewise Stevo, I walked in about 45 mins ago and my wife was in tears. She'd just heard about the kids they found in a burnout out car.

Poor buggers.

[rmp]

Was down at Philip Island totally out of the loop. Got a phonecall this morning. Told me Marysville has been wiped out. WIPED OUT. I cannot believe it. If I've been there once I've been there 200 times in the last few years. The bakery where we used to meet -- gone. Servo -- gone. Narby -- gone. Mate's places -- gone. I haven't been this shocked for a long time. I got on the blower and it seems everyone I know with property has survived. But I dreaded making the calls, such a relief when people pick up and answer. I just watched the news and I recognised most of the shots -- but only after a few seconds, you think no that's not it, but it is, you need the outline of a familiar road, but the trees and houses are just gone. I'm feeling bad enough and I didn't lose anything or anyone. God knows what those that were in the thick of it were like.

Friends tell me the authorities have found cars, abandoned next to fallen trees. Abandoned. So the bodies will be somewhere in the bush, you can't outrun a fire. I have other friends ready to evacuate at a moments notice, it's not over yet. Not by a long shot.

We need to coordinate a 4WD club response and support so I'm off working on that now.

[aew849]

I work over in the west with helicopters with bushfire water bombing one of our main tasks.

Call me a bluff old traditionalist but someone caught cold deliberately lighting fires on a stinky hot 45+ deg day with huge winds needs to go against the wall.

Singapore hangs for what we (Oz) would consider a minor drug traffic offence. Someone to recklessly start a blaze which takes a life needs to go. Don't waste the money jailing them, capital punishment welcome back, we've missed you.

On the way to work this arvo, with all the news reports on this tragedy, dumbfounded to see two girls smoking like chimneys dumping their fag ash out the car window......next to scrub!


Thought I had been through life's challenges but I struggle to comprehend what the casualties of these fires are going through, and will face in the future.

Will be digging deep for the state appeal, and recommend for those that can also help.

Plus good wishes the the Queenslanders under water.....


aew849

[rmp]

Robert, do you want contact names and phone numbers ?

if your club is part of 4WD Vic we can contact you

just confirmed another mate is all good :-)

now going to cancel my long weekend trip to Walhalla and turn it into a working bee of some description, suggest other people running trips consider the same

[Vern]

Will be heading up to Kinglake when this dies down, a mate lost his house yesterday there. He snuck back in today to check the damage, kids new trampoline was untouched and so was their cubby, but the house and shed was gone.
There was a car smashed out the front of his house, when he went into the backyard there was a red blanket, under the blanket was a mother and her 2 young daughters, dead

[Hucksta]

This has blown us away man, my wife and I are shocked at the number of people who have perished. It's so bloody sad that this can happen, it's just terrible news and we have no doubt that it will get a lot worse. They are saying on the radio that triple figures for deaths will be reached and will keep rising. Our thoughts go out to the families affected by this tragedy and also our thoughts to the fire fighters and other emergency services .....

Stay safe people .....

[landyprincess]

We as a family are utterly deeply saddened by such news and what's happening.

I was 9 years old when "Ash Wednesday' hit... living in Adelaide at the foot hills of my parents house and I will never forget seeing the hillside alight....

I have toys and kids clothing that I would love to donate to families who have lost everything... if you know of anyone who has small children from newborn to baby age (0 > 12 months) please let me know.....

Would this be the sort of support 4wd clubs would be organising? I.e collection or central drop off zones?

I know the Salvo's have their own support groups and what they are trying to achieve, but to be honest I'd prefer that things went directly to families... bypassing the red tape...

Our prayers are with everyone... from the families to the animals... to the volunteers and ES workers and everyone else involved...


As a side note - for those fireblazers... I think they should adopt what they did in the early century... give them some of what they get off on - burn them at the stake!

Lp

[ellard]

Hi there

Skynews - just reported 84 now dead............................

Wayne

[DiscoTDI]

I dread to think what the number will be tomorrow:(

[p38arover]

Now exceeding Ash Wednesday. Jesus!

[rovercare]

Will be heading up to Kinglake when this dies down, a mate lost his house yesterday there. He snuck back in today to check the damage, kids new trampoline was untouched and so was their cubby, but the house and shed was gone.
There was a car smashed out the front of his house, when he went into the backyard there was a red blanket, under the blanket was a mother and her 2 young daughters, dead


:(, That horror never leaves you:(

[rovercare]

Just snuck into my brothers place in Traralgon South to get some gear as they have nothing sort a few things and get out, through the pines was still burning happily, not aggresively though otherwise wouldn;t be there, I still stink

Checked up with his next door neighbour, apparently over 14 dead in Callignee area now, Mt Tassie is a massive crime scene? horrendous stuff

[justinc]

Just snuck into my brothers place in Traralgon South to get some gear as they have nothing sort a few things and get out, through the pines was still burning happily, not aggresively though otherwise wouldn;t be there, I still stink

Checked up with his next door neighbour, apparently over 14 dead in Callignee area now, Mt Tassie is a massive crime scene? horrendous stuff

Stay safe Matt! Don't go into some of these areas without having a way out, I guess you know that already but don't take any unnecessary risks:mad::mad:

JC

[rovercare]

Stay safe Matt! Don't go into some of these areas without having a way out, I guess you know that already but don't take any unnecessary risks:mad::mad:

JC

All well and good, alot of local knowledge;)

Although its probably what catches alot out to:(

[discomuzz]

All well and good...

Mate! I'm in Frankston and terrified!

Best of luck to you and your neighbors.

[CraigE]

This just keeps getting worse and worse. There just aren't any words.

I think Rudd should keep the bail out bonus and divert it into Vic and Qld to get them up and running again. I know it will not bring back people or replace personal possessions, but it would be a start. Also put some into emergency services, if Vic and Qld are anything like WA they are far under resourced (which is what the fire levy was supposed to boost, but it seems to be given with one hand and taken with the other). I am more than happy to give ours up.
My thoughts are with our brothers in arms fighting these disasters on the front and also in the backrooms.
Geez 2009 as been a terrible year so far.
:(:(:(:(:(:(

[fraser130]

Vern, I'm starting to feel sick, I have a friend I haven't seen for a while, but she has two young daughters and is a single mum, she has recently finished building a house in Kinglake - I hope it's not her, does your mate know who she was?
My friend's name is Jesse.
Another Mate in Upper Plenty has not been allowed back to his house to see if it's still there, but things look grim. He fell of the roof of his shed 6 months ago while clearing debris off the roof to prepare for the fire season, he's now a paraplegic. unbelievable!
:(
It's hard to deal with something of this scale and horror.

Fraser

[Treads]

I've just returned from a deployment to the NSW Bega fires for the past 5 days. Our crew was in shock this morning when we saw the news :( We've been very out of the loop since getting there and had no idea what was happening only a few hundred k's south of us. Words cannot describe the feeling of utter helplessness people must have there at the moment. I know so many CFA firefighters and can only imagine the feelings they are experiencing after such an event.

The main fire we were tasking aircraft to also broke containment lines yesterday in all that crap weather. It still not directly threatening any homes, thank god.
Some good news though! Yesterday one of our choppers noticed a small amount of smoke alongside a road on the way back from a sortie and went to investigate. The pilot saw that the fire had just started and followed the only car that was trying to leave the area. He dropped down low in front of the car and his crewie took a digital photo of the vehicle. It was passed onto the police and they caught the driver at a roadblock a little later. That person has apparently been charged with arson :twisted:
Oh, and because we found the fire so quickly we were able to respond 3 fixed wing bombers and 2 medium choppers to bomb the living **** outta the place until a tanker crew arrived to mop up. We certainly had a celebratory beer last night after that effort :twobeers:

I flew into home for my mandatory 24hr break at 2pm today, within minutes of me getting into the house I was called out to set up an aircraft fill point at the local Airport. We got a 90ha bushfire under control with 2 fixed wing bombers, 1 chopper, 8 tankers, 1 pumper & 1 striker. Arrived back at the station at 6pm and immediately got called to another going grassfire. We knocked it down with just our one tanker and managed to contain it to about 5ha. I finally got home at 10pm, absolutely exhausted.

I fear what the death toll will be up to when I log on in the morning :(

[matbor]

Some bushfire pics.
Flickr: Victorian Bushfires - February 2009 (http://www.flickr.com/groups/998526@N20/)

more here..
Photo Galleries | Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/galleries/0,22008,5006020,00.html)

and one of mine...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/1091.jpg

[dullbird]

treads mate its guys like you that should be issued medals for the efforts you put in to save people, houses and land.......

I take my hat of to you and the other brave fighters out there as we speak!!!!

[justinc]

treads mate its guys like you that should be issued medals for the efforts you put in to save people, houses and land.......

I take my hat of to you and the other brave fighters out there as we speak!!!!

X2, well done to all!:)
but stay safe doing it, PLEASE:(

JC

[roversmith]

Got the call tonight, on CFA strike team in the morning. Thought Horsham fire was bad until we watched the news. Bloody hell.

Greg

[catch-22]

treads mate its guys like you that should be issued medals for the efforts you put in to save people, houses and land.......

I take my hat of to you and the other brave fighters out there as we speak!!!!

X3.

Take care out there. I can not even imagine the conditions out there at the moment. Stay safe.

[Treads]

Got the call tonight, on CFA strike team in the morning. Thought Horsham fire was bad until we watched the news. Bloody hell.

Greg

Be careful brother

[VladTepes]

I work over in the west with helicopters with bushfire water bombing one of our main tasks.

Call me a bluff old traditionalist but someone caught cold deliberately lighting fires on a stinky hot 45+ deg day with huge winds needs to go against the wall.

Singapore hangs for what we (Oz) would consider a minor drug traffic offence. Someone to recklessly start a blaze which takes a life needs to go. Don't waste the money jailing them, capital punishment welcome back, we've missed you.

On the way to work this arvo, with all the news reports on this tragedy, dumbfounded to see two girls smoking like chimneys dumping their fag ash out the car window......next to scrub!


Thought I had been through life's challenges but I struggle to comprehend what the casualties of these fires are going through, and will face in the future.

Will be digging deep for the state appeal, and recommend for those that can also help.

Plus good wishes the the Queenslanders under water.....


aew849

Bloody well said.

[Hymie]

We went up to Camp Hill between Drouin and Warragul to see the fires running across from Labertouche to Jindivick.
While we were there there was a young woman smoking, she dropped her smoke butt in the grass and stood there looking at the fires.
I couldn't help but walk over to her and rip **** out of her in my best Corporals voice. She abused me for picking on smokers and told me to mind my own flamin' business. When she was just about finished I pointed down the the but she had dropped and the small wisps of smoke coming from the grass at her feet. Her attitude changed rapidly.

[PaulP38a]

Treads - I salute you and your comrades in the CFA/RFS.

Anyone in the know - what can I do to help?

I was a teenager in the LaTrobe Valley during the Ash Wednesday fires in 1983. We were spared but the shocking memory still remains.

I lived in Winmalee during the Blue Mountains fires in 2002 and I owe everything I possess to the RFS/CFA and the flying Elvis'. My Mum's house in Yellow Rock was also saved by these heros. When I see the RFS in the street collecting I will ALWAYS give them whatever I can.

Now more than ever is the time for more payback. I have means to help financially and in person. I'm more than willing to drive down to Vic and help move people/equipment/whatever but fear that my lack of firefighting nous may be a liability to those better suited than me.

If anyone here knows a family that needs direct support let me know. Bugger the tax deduction, I want to know that I can help someone directly. I can be down there (from Canberra) in a few hours if need be. I can supply blankets, pillows, tarps, whatever - let me know. I want to help.

My Rangie is well suited to difficult terrain and carrying loads although I don't have a trailer - I'm prepared to buy one tomorrow to carry stuff down to Vic if other people in the Canberra region have stuff to send. Not trying to be a hero here or put myself or anyone else in harm's way, but surely we can do something to help all these people that have lost everything?

I'm going to put it to my 4WD club to see what the committee have in mind. Our monthly meeting is on Tuesday but I'm hoping for action before then.

[p38arover]

Well done to all you CFA/RFS blokes.

I see the toll has risen further.

[leeds]

Am at a lost at what to say.

I hope these fires can be quickly halted and that no more lives are lost. It will be many years before some communities are rebuilt.

My heart goes out to those who have lost family members.

Also we must think of the fire/ambulance/police personnel who are having to deal with the tragic consequences of these fires.

I can not believe that some idiots are deliberately setting fires. As to stupid smokers maybe instead of getting the well deserved bollocking they rightly deserved they are made to go and witness the recovery of the charred bodies as well. They might then reliase the consequences of a thoughtless action

Good luck to all the people dealing with the consequences of these fires.

Regards


Brendan

[Bushie]

Speaking to some of our guys last night, they were heading into Dederang. The 2 strike teams were expected to be the only fire protection for the place.

Turns out everything worked out OK no property losses, fire went over them as it crossed the Kiewa River but all were nice and safe.


Martyn

[mudmouse]

Yep, those guys are an inspiration and what can you say for those who have lost so much....

Not to make light of the situation, but i saw this in some media images on nine msn.


Matt.

[LRHybrid100]

Shocking, what more can I say.

Anyone who is part of the RFS / CFA should be commended, I certainly could not do what they do but I make sure I support them financially.

Keep safe

LRH

[LRHybrid100]

Did I also see Mark "Lowmount" Lowry from ARB on the VIC fires news last night? Pretty sure it was him and he'd lost everything.

LRH

[ellard]

Hi there all

As a firey by occupation - all I can say we need rain...........and now.

My heart goes out to those who have lost everything - its not much of a help but additional Fire crews arrived yesterday in Victoria from SA and additional Fire Crews crews are on there way today (including arial water tankers)

Our fire threat has been slightly reduced in SA due to the weather cooling off.......

Wayne

[willem]

I find myself at a loss for words. 108 confirmed deaths so far. 750 homes destroyed.

I stand in awe at what the CFA guys do, but even they were powerless many times. Marysville is gone, only three houses remain. Kinglake is gone, nothing remains standing. And the loss of human life, and the human suffering. The guy with burns to 50% of his body who has lost his wife and child. And it just goes on and on. My prayers are with those who are left behind, who are grieving.

How long before those in authority learn that cool control burns to lower the fuel level in the bush saves lives? And that leaving four wheel drive tracks open gives better access?

Willem

[Treads]

How long before those in authority learn that cool control burns to lower the fuel level in the bush saves lives? And that leaving four wheel drive tracks open gives better access?


The fire authorities already know it, but the greens and some other land management departments block their attempts.....

[rmp]

The various RRGs (Rural Response Groups) in 4WD Victoria are swinging into action. When we have a plan I'll post it here and anyone interested in helping can pitch in.

Typically we provide transport for anything and everything, clear properties, move dead cars, put fencing back etc etc. But for now it's not clear what needs to be done and where.

For the moment one club is doing this:


The Pajero Club is organising clothes.



By now you'll have seen the carnage and read of the terrible and tragic
deaths, so many people are have also been left homeless and destitute.
So let's do something to assist quickly. If you can bring along some
items of clean wearable clothing or children's toys to the next meeting
(Wednesday, 18th Feb) we'll get them to either the Salvos or St Vinnies
for distribution in affected areas.


These items do not need to be new but clean and useful.
The address is:

7:30 for 8PM
Glen Waverley Bowls Club,
690 Waverley Rd,
Glen Waverley
Victoria, 3150
Australia

Club Meetings (http://www.pajeroclub.com.au/home/about/clubmeetings.html)

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

I would hope that after this disaster the honourable Mr Brumby,Mr Rees and the Prime Minister tell the city dwelling "Green Movement" to pull their collective heads in, and let the mountain cattlemen start grazing their stock again, and the 4wd tracks be re-opened, it might not be much help in disasters of this scale but it may help in lesser fires and give greater access. It's alright to have these "National Parks" but if the Govt Depts responsible don't have the resources to maintain them CORRECTLY then leave them open to the public


cheers

[303gunner]

I read a quote from the SA Premier that anyone caught deliberately lighting fires in SA will be charged with Terrorism offences, not Arson, and Murder if the evidence supports it.:clap2:

Many of the Vehicle related deaths are not due to heat radiation, but road accidents caused by disorientation in the heavy smoke, then the consequences of being in a damaged vehicle when the firefront catches up.

To divert this thread somewhat, how much do Ericcson "Elvis" helicopters cost? We seem to import on temporary hire each summer several of these marvellous firefighting aircraft. Would Mr Rudd's cash handouts be more wisely spent on a Squadron of these aircraft for the RAAF, to be used as heavy lift helicopters during the cooler months, and deployed around the country during Summer?

[JDNSW]

.......
To divert this thread somewhat, how much do Ericcson "Elvis" helicopters cost? We seem to import on temporary hire each summer several of these marvellous firefighting aircraft. Would Mr Rudd's cash handouts be more wisely spent on a Squadron of these aircraft for the RAAF, to be used as heavy lift helicopters during the cooler months, and deployed around the country during Summer?

It would certainly stand investigation, but my guess is that it would be hard to match the costs of an operation that does specialised firefighting in both northern and southern summers. Consider the necessary crew training, spare parts stocking and supply lines etc. Also, I seriously doubt whether there is enough heavy lift opportunities to justify their remaining in the country for the winter. It is very doubtful whether there is a military case to be made for having the heavy lift capability either, let alone the firefighting equipment and specialised training.

Of course, there is no reason why an Australian based operation could not be equally cost effective as a US based operation (except for minor problems like CASA vs FAA), but let's face it - I think there is only one of these organisations worldwide - is there room for two?

John

[UncleHo]

G'day 303gunner :)

Yes, it may well be worth investigation the possible aquisition of those CH74 Sykorski "Skycrane" Helos, a veteran of the Vietnam War, as they could be used for heavy lift during our winter months, such as powerline repair/replacement, SES duties,major road accidents where large vehicles need righting, wind generator instalation, these things were used to unload Aust Army 6x6 International trucks off HMAS Sydney in the 60's there maybe even a pic of it on the REMLR site. they would need to be under the control of something like the CFA who would then lease them and crews out to commercial interests, it would generate much needed income for the service and aid in equiping smaller brigades.


cheers

[87County]

G'day Folks :)

I would hope that after this disaster the honourable Mr Brumby,Mr Rees and the Prime Minister tell the city dwelling "Green Movement" to pull their collective heads in, and let the mountain cattlemen start grazing their stock again, and the 4wd tracks be re-opened, it might not be much help in disasters of this scale but it may help in lesser fires and give greater access. It's alright to have these "National Parks" but if the Govt Depts responsible don't have the resources to maintain them CORRECTLY then leave them open to the public
cheers

nice idea uncle, but realistically the re-introduction of "mountain" grazing is just not going happen....

for example (and unfortunately), mismanagement and environmental destruction by the graziers who held leases in the NSW alpine areas disqualified them forever.....

as I understand it, this disaster wasn't in "mountain" country as such, but was predominantly in rural residential / small town areas some of which had established natural vegetation and which adjoined smaller national parks

there will much talk-festing over what has happened but several factors yet again point towards the combined factors of high temperature, strong winds and lack of humidity contributing to a general drying-out that in turn, contibuted to an appaling disaster that was beyond anyones' control....

I do wonder how and when we will learn to live more in tune with an environment that has repeatedly demonstrated a propensity for severe bushfires every 30 + or - (or so) years....and I wonder if emphasis will ever be placed on achieving engineering and design solutions to fireproof property (or to at least mitigate the effects of such a firestorm).... I really hope so

but it's a bit early for that just yet....

[87County]

also........

FYI

Land Rover Owners Club of Victoria Inc :: View topic - Bush Fires - Community Emergency Response (http://www.lrocv.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php't=4901&sid=218702b18cc2853fd5cefdd3f3d972e4)

[JDNSW]

............

I do wonder how and when we will learn to live more in tune with an environment that has repeatedly demonstrated a propensity for severe bushfires every 30 + or - (or so) years....and I wonder if emphasis will ever be placed on achieving engineering and design solutions to fireproof property (or to at least mitigate the efects of such a firestorm).... I really hope so

but it's a bit early for that just yet....

Information on how to build fireproof homes has been around for many years, but people simply do not take note of it. The ultimate is probably underground homes, but a conventional house, built on a slab, with an iron roof, clear verandahs all round, non combustible walls(e.g. brick, hardiplank etc), clean gutters and no vegetation more than 50mm long all within ten metres, is provided it has the windows and doors closed, is pretty fireproof.

Most of the houses lost will have had the usual clutter of combustibles up against the house, or roofs that allow sparks into the roof space, or vegetation very close to the house, particularly large trees, or will be up off the ground allowing sparks to start fires underneath a wooden floor.

You can hardly blame people - despite all the talk about fire safety, even those living in fireprone areas have on average half a lifetime between fires. And many of the houses lost will have survived for close to a hundred years without being lost in a fire.

John

[87County]

Information on how to build fireproof homes has been around for many years, but people simply do not take note of it. The ultimate is probably underground homes, but a conventional house, built on a slab, with an iron roof, clear verandahs all round, non combustible walls(e.g. brick, hardiplank etc), clean gutters and no vegetation more than 50mm long all within ten metres, is provided it has the windows and doors closed, is pretty fireproof.

Most of the houses lost will have had the usual clutter of combustibles up against the house, or roofs that allow sparks into the roof space, or vegetation very close to the house, particularly large trees, or will be up off the ground allowing sparks to start fires underneath a wooden floor.

You can hardly blame people - despite all the talk about fire safety, even those living in fireprone areas have on average half a lifetime between fires. And many of the houses lost will have survived for close to a hundred years without being lost in a fire.

John

what you say is true John... hopefully too you will note that in what I wrote I was not blaming the people who live there ... I was rather reflecting on the fact that we, as a society, do not seem to have a collective knowledge of, or attitude towards, putting effective solutions into place

- Laurie

[spudboy]

Can't believe the news :( I was just talking to a friend in London and it is headline news over there.

Is it safe to climb into a concrete rainwater tank in these types of fires? I was wondering if you'd lose oxygen inside the "closed" container when the fire came through. The tin roof would radiate a lot of heat, but you could take in a blanket or something to protect your head, but the oxygen issue might make this a bad idea.

[isuzurover]

All well and good, alot of local knowledge;)

Although its probably what catches alot out to:(

Glad to hear you are OK Matt!

[JDNSW]

what you say is true John... hopefully too you will note that in what I wrote I was not blaming the people who live there ... I was rather reflecting on the fact that we, as a society, do not seem to have a collective knowledge of, or attitude towards, putting effective solutions into place

- Laurie

No, I did not think you were blaming the people, although from accounts many of the dead were doing exactly what they have been told many times not to do - evacuate at the last moment. But even here, the problem may have been not with them, but with the lack of or wrong information about the progress of the fire.

But changing the culture to one of fire awareness in house design is not going to happen quickly - I am reminded that after the Ash Wednesday fires, many houses were rebuilt with exactly the same weaknesses that had led to the loss of their predecessors. Fire safety is simply way down on the list of priorities. A good example is my sister who lives next door to me, four kilometres away. She lives in an eighty year old house built almost entirely of cypress pine (we use it for kindling!) up off the ground, surrounded by gardens with thick shrubs, many right up against the house. She is aware of the fire danger, but accepts it, and would not want to live in a house like mine with bare ground round it.

John

John

[numpty]

I know what you're saying John and don't disagree, but I don't believe anything would have saved those houses in the conditions experienced.

We have learned from disasters in the past, probably the most striking example would be Darwin after Tracy. The whole place was virtually rebuilt in a much more cyclone safe way.

Hopefully different building practices will be followed with the rebuilding of these devastated areas.

No matter what......it is a tragedy of mammoth proportions.

[trobbo]

Can't believe the news :( I was just talking to a friend in London and it is headline news over there.

Is it safe to climb into a concrete rainwater tank in these types of fires? I was wondering if you'd lose oxygen inside the "closed" container when the fire came through. The tin roof would radiate a lot of heat, but you could take in a blanket or something to protect your head, but the oxygen issue might make this a bad idea.

A lot of people boil to death in water tanks so it is probably not a great idea, but then again neither is standing in front of a wall of fire.

They say that getting down low in a deep gully is a good choice.


I wonder if as people rebuild, they will build underground pits (bit like bomb shelters of old) as a refuge for when a front goes over your head.

[spudboy]

A lot of people boil to death in water tanks so it is probably not a great idea, but then again neither is standing in front of a wall of fire.

They say that getting down low in a deep gully is a good choice.


Don't reckon it would boil. The tanks are 50,000 litres (as big as a living room around the base, and 2m high) with 300mm thick walls. I can see it would get warm, but a long way off boiling.

[Bigbjorn]

I have just been looking at Yahoo7 News picture gallery. It is astonishing that whole streets or whole townships of houses were reduced to a pile of bent roofing iron and smouldering rubble whilst many trees right alongside still have green foliage. Is there someone with the technical knowledge to expalin this?

[ivery819]

It is important to appreciate the characteristics of a firestorm as opposed to a fire.
Read more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestorm)

The random nature of the wind and gas movements combined with the speed of the movement of the front is more like explosions than burning. Anything inside the combustible gas pockets will be destroyed. Anything outside may be relatively unaffected because of the speed of movement which may also allow little time for exposure to the radiant (+750 C degrees) heat.

[Treads]

Don't reckon it would boil. The tanks are 50,000 litres (as big as a living room around the base, and 2m high) with 300mm thick walls. I can see it would get warm, but a long way off boiling.

Concrete tanks at ground level aren't that much of a problem if they're a decent size. Elevated steel tanks warm up above a persons core body temp and that causes issues :(

The main problem in a firestorm such as this is that there is no oxygen to breathe, regardless of whether one has a safe spot to shelter....

[Davo]

Absolutely unbelievable! It seems like most people were simply caught trying to get away too late, but who could possibly imagine what was happening? I didn't have a clue about how bad a firestorm could be until I saw some footage on TV last year. I guess you just have to leave well before you think you should. The size and ferocity of this is beyond me.

Sympathies to all who have lost something or someone.

[rovercare]

http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6476813,00.jpg

**** me, Marysville IS gone

[HSVRangie]

Marysville
the bakery and a few homes left, school gone.

Narby most everything gone.

Bruce (brother) arrived back in Melb Friday aft from Mackay where he has been working.
on way home picked up a new airconditioner, installed fri arvo. (says he may have to complain to manufacture that it did not keep house cool.)

Speaking to Bruce they lived just behind Tudor Lodge.
Sat Morning he had the radiator out of the nissan cleaning and repairing the fan clutch.
was drivng up to Marysville to test it,

in the afternnon fire were starting to move, they started preparing.

about 4.30 they could see fire acros the way, ( k ot 2 away) next thing the fire was Tudor lodge it appearded almost instantly, they put some clothes in the car put he dogs in the car and started to leave the property, as they drove out the house erupted into fire.
they went to the mill (corner of rd toMarysville) along with about 15 others deciding that the kiln would be safe ish. sprinkers going and pumps going flat out.
then the fire ringed the mil and people started to worry, embers started to be blown into the kiln they had to wait for the cfa to clear a way out, they all moved to the old Narby store but embers soon started tomake this unsfe, next move to narby pub which declared safe there they all spent the night.

Next morning went back to the house gone just a pile of roof sheeting.
new camper trailer (2 weeks old) just a steel shell, next to it burnt out bronco, out back in the shed, tractor burnt mess, ride on mower molten heap, such devastation unreal.

THey are now in Numurka near Shepparton resting and lookinh at starting over.

He has just purchased a block land at Buxton just around the Buxton Marysville rd. (needs clearing fire did not touch it.)

Michael.

[101RRS]

Absolutely unbelievable! It seems like most people were simply caught trying to get away too late, but who could possibly imagine what was happening? I didn't have a clue about how bad a firestorm could be until I saw some footage on TV last year. I guess you just have to leave well before you think you should. The size and ferocity of this is beyond me.

Sympathies to all who have lost something or someone.

I was in the Canberra fires and yes the ferocity and speed of the fires and the ember attacks have to be seen to be believed. In our fire as in the Vic ones the fire fighting agencies advise to either leave early or if you decide to stay - stay and prepare and fight as best you can. NEVER drive off at the last moment (easier said than done).

Houses either burn down well before the fire arrives because of the embers travelling up to 10km in front of the fire or if caught by the fire front, burn after the fire has moved on - it moves so quickly - so the logic sort of goes that if you stay you should (might) be able to put out any fires started around the house by the embers - or if you get caught by the fire front - you can get protection inside the house and if it does catch fire - the fire front has moved on and you can get out.

In our fire, the police worked on their own and ordered us to evacuate against the advice of the fireys but all my neighbours and myself stayed and we were able to save our homes - they would have burnt if we had not stayed.

I think these fires in Vic have highlighted that once the advice needs to be revisited and in these type of circumstances everyone should evacuate - but again easier said than done.

I only hope that the professionals learnt from the experiences in Canberra where equipment was found wanting - like fire engine air filter housings being made of plastic and melting and killing the engine, rural appliances not being able to connect to suburban water hydrants (fighting bush fires in towns) and metropolitan (pumpers - no water tanks) being useless to fight bush fires in the burbs when the infrastructure fails.

For the survivors - there is a lot ahead - it will take years to recover and many will have to start new lives elsewhere.

My condolences to those who have lost family members and my best wishes to those who have a hard fight ahead.

Garry

[Treads]

metropolitan (pumpers - no water tanks) being useless to fight bush fires in the burbs when the infrastructure fails.


All Pumpers have water tanks, but only around half the size (1500-1800L) of those on the rural tankers (3300L)

In the '97 fires around Menai etc we draughted water from peoples swimming pools with our Pumper to save the 36 houses we were sent to protect. The mains supply simply wasn't up to the task :(

[McDisco]

Im a support officer at the Yarra Ranges Emergency Relief Centre in Healesville. We were registering and assisting a lot of people that had come done from Marysville, Buxton and Narbethong today. Some of the stories are just incredible. You could tell immediately who had lost there house and or family by the vacant dead stare in there eyes.

It was amazing the range of emotions and how people handle it. Some laugh, some reflect that they are thankful they have their lives, other are just dumbstruck. Not too many hysterical cases though. Lost of support however with the Salvos, Red Cross, DHS and Centrelink there and there was so many offers of assistance from the community. The centre looks like it is going to be open for at least a couple of weeks and will convert from a relief centre to a recovery centre.

Angus

[rovercare]

"apparently" they've apprehended a 14 yo, who lit the Churchill fires:(

[hook]

"apparently" they've apprehended a 14 yo, who lit the Churchill fires:(


131 counts of Murder
and atemped murder.:twisted:

Controlled fire reduction burning.
EACH year.

[DiscoTDI]

A lot of people boil to death in water tanks so it is probably not a great idea, but then again neither is standing in front of a wall of fire.

They say that getting down low in a deep gully is a good choice.


I wonder if as people rebuild, they will build underground pits (bit like bomb shelters of old) as a refuge for when a front goes over your head.


There was a family on Tv tonight who survived because he built a concrete bunker, when they showed it, it looked like a large concrete water tank with a buffered entrance. It saved their lives, I dare say many more will follow suit.

[waynep]

I'm in NZ at the moment. Coming home Wed to my wife and home - I'm lucky.

Everyone here in NZ is shocked and aghast at the extent of this. People when they know I am from Victoria are just shaking their heads and not knowing what to say to me.

[B92 8NW]

131 counts of Murder
and atemped murder.:twisted:

Controlled fire reduction burning.
EACH year.

They've already said anyone found to have light the fires resulting in death will get manslaughter.

[fraser130]

I've just got back from Kinglake, drove in with a relief convoy and a load of water/food/clothes/bedding. I'm not sure I can describe the scene on the way in from whittlesea, some of it is like a moonscape, but with tree skeletons, some of it is completely untouched. It looks like a lot of people either were taken by surprise on the road, or left it too late to leave, or just plain had no warning and left when the fire hit. there were a lot of cars on the road, some had run into fallen trees (not small trees, one was over 1m in diameter!) others had run into other cars, some had run off the road.
It was trully horriffic.
One thing I'd like to say is unless you know someone in the CFA, or police, don't bother to go to try and help, and don't bother donating stuff, they honestly have more food/clothing/bedding than they can deal with!
Give money.
Although one thing I can say about Kinglake is that they needed more good quality 4 stroke generators, and portable coolrooms. this was about 3 hours ago, I'd say that maybe in the next 24 hours that will be sorted, but the police aren't letting people back in who have left to buy fuel!!! I saw one guy who had collected all the locals jerry cans in a trailer and filled them get stopped from getting back in!!!!
There will be people up there sharing homes with lights, leads, generators, but no fuel.
Anyway, that's my experience today.

Fraser

[DiscoTDI]

G'day Folks :)

I would hope that after this disaster the honourable Mr Brumby,Mr Rees and the Prime Minister tell the city dwelling "Green Movement" to pull their collective heads in, and let the mountain cattlemen start grazing their stock again, and the 4wd tracks be re-opened, it might not be much help in disasters of this scale but it may help in lesser fires and give greater access. It's alright to have these "National Parks" but if the Govt Depts responsible don't have the resources to maintain them CORRECTLY then leave them open to the public


cheers

There has been mention of the green movement on the news and there are quite a few people who have been saying that they are not surprised that it has happened.

[Bushie]

Information on how to build fireproof homes has been around for many years, but people simply do not take note of it. The ultimate is probably underground homes, but a conventional house, built on a slab, with an iron roof, clear verandahs all round, non combustible walls(e.g. brick, hardiplank etc), clean gutters and no vegetation more than 50mm long all within ten metres, is provided it has the windows and doors closed, is pretty fireproof.



Sorry John but gonna have to disagree with that one, no such thing as a fire proof house, fire resistant maybe, but you need much more that 10m clearance from significant veg.

Much has been learnt since Ash Wednesday, improved after 1994 and again since the 2001 Sydney and 2003 Canberra fires.

New houses (at least in NSW) have to take bushfire into account and comply with AS3959 - Building in Bush Fire Prone Areas. Anything with less than 20m clearance in forest/woodland/heath etc is classified as within the flamezone, currently AFAIK there is no window glass that will withstand the radiant heat loads, any timbers will ignite as well.

Of course none of this fixes the historical problem dealing with 100 year old houses.



Controlled fire reduction burning.
EACH year.

In reality beyond the resource capabilities of the CFA/DSE etc.
Even if you could do it the reduced fuel loads would mean you would have to burn under hotter/drier conditions = more chance of escapes.


Martyn

[Disco300Tdi]

I've just got back from Kinglake, drove in with a relief convoy and a load of water/food/clothes/bedding. I'm not sure I can describe the scene on the way in from whittlesea, some of it is like a moonscape, but with tree skeletons, some of it is completely untouched. It looks like a lot of people either were taken by surprise on the road, or left it too late to leave, or just plain had no warning and left when the fire hit. there were a lot of cars on the road, some had run into fallen trees (not small trees, one was over 1m in diameter!) others had run into other cars, some had run off the road.
It was trully horriffic.
One thing I'd like to say is unless you know someone in the CFA, or police, don't bother to go to try and help, and don't bother donating stuff, they honestly have more food/clothing/bedding than they can deal with!
Give money.
Although one thing I can say about Kinglake is that they needed more good quality 4 stroke generators, and portable coolrooms. this was about 3 hours ago, I'd say that maybe in the next 24 hours that will be sorted, but the police aren't letting people back in who have left to buy fuel!!! I saw one guy who had collected all the locals jerry cans in a trailer and filled them get stopped from getting back in!!!!
There will be people up there sharing homes with lights, leads, generators, but no fuel.
Anyway, that's my experience today.

Fraser

Well said Fraser, I spent the first part of this morning with my mother who spent Sunday night in Whittlesea with friends. She is one of the lucky ones that still has a house in Kinglake, neighbours either side lost everything.
At 12 noon a community meeting was held at the relief centre where the police and cfa chiefs briefed us on the situation. The main reason for the police restricting the residents returning is that Kinglake in the centre of a coronial enquiry likewise to Marysville. Also the safety of people in and about burnt buildings, trees etc as the wind is expected to increase tonight.
The power companies have started to rebuild the power lines to the town (why not put them underground), but that will take weeks. The government are going to supply generators and fuel to residents who have are lucky enough to have a house to go back to.

It really is the fall of the dice that a burning ember doesn't lodge itself and consume a house especially as the ol girls house is weatherboard.

There was a line up of cars approx 400m long all loaded with toys, clothes, food etc waiting to unload. Food companys vehicles were everywhere, their staff walking around handing out rolls, sandwiches, drinks, fruit, even Krispy-Kreme donuts.

Outside the centre television crews filming and interviewing people, even a NZ team were there
Radio stations doing live broadcasts, ABC & 3AW

Centrelink were setup doing the paperwork for people, Telstra handing out mobile phones and chargers to people who had flat phone batteries. Doctors writing scripts to people who had left without medication.

I took my mum down to the main street to grab a coffee and get her out of the relief centre as it was such a sad place to be at and practically every business was giving away goods or services at cost or free,,,free haircuts, free bread and milk etc

As Fraser said in his post, what the survivors really require is cash donations.

Today I was so happy to firstly see that mum was ok and secondly to feel so proud to be an Australian in times like this

[PeterM]

Don't reckon it would boil. The tanks are 50,000 litres (as big as a living room around the base, and 2m high) with 300mm thick walls. I can see it would get warm, but a long way off boiling.

Mate, there was a property owner with a 5000 gallon tank that boiled. Trust me, when you're talking about something like this, don't go jumping in a water tank.

[Mikes defender]

No matter how dark the night, The sun will always come up the next morning.

My respects to those that are still out there working, the CFA, Police, Ambo, SES and all the other people working round the clock. And my condolence to those that have been lost.

Just last week i saw a video of a 747 being chopped up for scrap at avalon. I think a 747 has a payload of 200 ton. That is 200ton of foam. I can't help but wonder if these would make a good fire fighting tool. I guess if it could have been done, it would have been done.

I guess the royal commission will show the way

[Dmmos]

I just read the official toll is 130 (with The Australian suggesting 230 could have died). The trauma experienced by the victims and relatives is something I must admit I could never fully contemplate - it's totally overwhelming.

I returned from overseas today, it's surreal to return home to something like this.

I've never seen any form of bushfire (for which I am extremely grateful), and reading about this is just absolutely terrifying - all the best to those affected, especially to all of the good people on this forum.

Dave.

[lardy]

Can't believe the news :( I was just talking to a friend in London and it is headline news over there.

Is it safe to climb into a concrete rainwater tank in these types of fires? I was wondering if you'd lose oxygen inside the "closed" container when the fire came through. The tin roof would radiate a lot of heat, but you could take in a blanket or something to protect your head, but the oxygen issue might make this a bad idea.

not too sure saw news tonight on the big fire in the 50's was it ? an old timer said his mate climbed in a water tank and boiled to death not nice

[lardy]

There was a family on Tv tonight who survived because he built a concrete bunker, when they showed it, it looked like a large concrete water tank with a buffered entrance. It saved their lives, I dare say many more will follow suit.

saw a survival thing once bloke reckons lay behind a dropped tree would stop you dying not prepared to try that unless i have no choice.....we are talking about how f...ed this is can we not raise some cashola for the fund as a group i am skint spending money on the landy right now but would put a tenner in if someone wants to match it, we have a fair few members it could be a tidy sum, and help out a fellow aussie in a squeeze good enough reason ..

[Dmmos]

The following article was published in today's (Tuesday) Australian. The author received the OAM after 19 years as a CSIRO bushfire scientist and is - from what I can gather - a respected voice within the scientific community.

(This is similar to points raised by other posters in this thread)

Victoria bushfires stoked by green vote (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25031389-7583,00.html)

[revor]

My Prayers go out to all of those affected. I'm not sure what else to say.
It just incredable, I hesitantly called a friend Sunday who lives in northeast Melbourne to find he is fine so far. Scary stuff!

We fear the same will happen here in Colorado this summer. No moisture and the pine trees have been ravaged for two years by pine beetles, acres, thousands upon thousands of standing dry pine. one lightning strike is all it will take.

[Dmmos]

It's at 166 (official) - terrifying...

[marty56011]

My Prayers go out to all of those affected. I'm not sure what else to say.


ditto, looks terrifying, its all over the news here in the uk, hope all members of the forum are accounted for......

[incisor]

the article for those that couldnt get to it..


Victoria bushfires stoked by green vote

David Packham | February 10, 2009

Article from: The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/)
VICTORIA has suffered the most tragic bushfire disaster to have occurred on this continent throughout its period of human habitation.
The deaths, loss of homes and businesses and the blow to our feeling of security will take decades to fade into history. The trauma will live with the victims, who, to a greater or lesser extent, are all of us.
How could this happen when we have been told in a withering, continuous barrage of public relations that with technology and well-polished uniforms, we can cope with the unleashing of huge forces of nature.
I have been a bushfire scientist for more than 50 years, dealing with all aspects of bushfires, from prescribed burning to flame chemistry, and serving as supervisor of fire weather services for Australia. We need to understand what has happened so that we can accept or prevent future fire disasters.
That this disaster was about to happen became clear when the weather bureau issued an accurate fire weather forecast last Wednesday, which prompted me, as a private citizen, to raise the alarm through a memo distributed to concerned residents.
The science is simple. A fire disaster of this nature requires a combination of hot, dry, windy weather in drought conditions. It also requires a source of ignition. In the past, this purpose has been served by lightning. In this disaster, lightning has not played a big part, and for this Victorians should be grateful. But other sources of ignition are ever-present. When the temperature and wind increase to extreme levels, small events -- perhaps the scrape of metal across a rock, a transformer overheating or sparks from a diesel engine -- are capable of starting a fire that can in minutes become unstoppable if the fuel is present.
The third and only controllable factor in this deadly triangle is fuel: the dead leaves, pieces of bark and grass that become the gas that feeds the 50m high flames that roar through the bush with the sound of jet engines.
Fuels build up year after year at an approximate rate of one tonne a hectare a year, up to a maximum of about 30 tonnes a hectare. If the fuels exceed about eight tonnes a hectare, disastrous fires can and will occur. Every objective analysis of the dynamics of fuel and fire concludes that unless the fuels are maintained at near the levels that our indigenous stewards of the land achieved, then we will have unhealthy and unsafe forests that from time to time will generate disasters such as the one that erupted on saturday.
It has been a difficult lesson for me to accept that despite the severe damage to our forests and even a fatal fire in our nation's capital, the political decision has been to do nothing that will change the extreme threat to which our forests and rural lands are exposed.
The decision to ignore the threat has been encouraged by some shocking pseudo-science from a few academics who use arguments that may have a place in political discourse but should have no place in managing our environment and protecting it and us from the bushfire threat.
The conclusion of these academics is that high intensity fires are good for the environment and that the resulting mudslides after rains are merely localised and serve to redistribute nutrients. The purpose of this failed policy is to secure uninformed city votes.
Only a few expert retired fire managers, experienced bushies and some courageous politicians are prepared to buck the decision to lock up our bush and leave it to burn.
The politicians who willingly accept this rubbish use it to justify the perpetuation of the greatest threat to our forests, water supplies, homes and lives in order to secure a minority green vote. They continue to throw millions (and no doubt soon billions) at ineffective suppression toys, while the few foresters and bush people who know how to manage our public lands are starved of the resources they need to reduce fuel loads.
It is hard for me to see this perversion of public policy and to accept that the folk of the bush have lost their battle to live a safe life in a cared-for rural and forest environment, all because of the environmental fantasies of outraged extremists and latte conservationists.
In a letter to my local paper, the Weekly Times, on January 25, I predicted we were facing a very critical situation in which 1000 to 2000 homes could be lost in the Yarra catchment, the Otways and/or the Strezleckies; that 100 souls could be lost in a most horrible and violent way; and that there was even a threat to Melbourne's water supply, which could be rendered unusable by the ash and debris. Horrifically, much of this has come to pass, and it is not yet the end of the bushfire season.
In the face of this inferno, the perpetrators of this obscenity should have the decency to stand up and say they were wrong. Southeast Australia is the worst place in the world for bushfires, and we must not waste any time in getting down to the task of making our bush healthy and safe.
But don't hold your breath. Do you hear that lovely sound the warbling pigs make as they fly by?
David Packham OAM is an honorary senior research fellow at Monash University's school of geography and environmental science.

[gunsports]

A terrible thing happened to your beautiful country. Our thoughts are with those affected.

[amtravic1]

An interesting article by David Packam.
I was involved in the Ash Wednesday fires and after the fires the CFA ran a number of seminars about bush fires. Basically these were to teach people how to prepare their properties and what to do in a fire as well as tours of the (mostly) western areas of the state explaining the fire behaviour.
It appears that this disaster was always going to happen sooner or later.
There has been greatly increased numbers of people living in rural and semi rural areas as old farming properties get sold off for people wanting a rural lifesyle and the policies of governments in chasing the green vote has meant far reduced maintence of the bush in those rural areas.
The information from those seminars I attended in 1983 was that most of the properties in these areas were undefendable if a major fire occured.
I hope that there is some sensible policy decisions that will come from this disaster however it seems no lessons were learnt from the 83 fires.

Ian

[Redback]

Well said Fraser, I spent the first part of this morning with my mother who spent Sunday night in Whittlesea with friends. She is one of the lucky ones that still has a house in Kinglake, neighbours either side lost everything.
At 12 noon a community meeting was held at the relief centre where the police and cfa chiefs briefed us on the situation. The main reason for the police restricting the residents returning is that Kinglake in the centre of a coronial enquiry likewise to Marysville. Also the safety of people in and about burnt buildings, trees etc as the wind is expected to increase tonight.
The power companies have started to rebuild the power lines to the town (why not put them underground), but that will take weeks. The government are going to supply generators and fuel to residents who have are lucky enough to have a house to go back to.

It really is the fall of the dice that a burning ember doesn't lodge itself and consume a house especially as the ol girls house is weatherboard.

There was a line up of cars approx 400m long all loaded with toys, clothes, food etc waiting to unload. Food companys vehicles were everywhere, their staff walking around handing out rolls, sandwiches, drinks, fruit, even Krispy-Kreme donuts.

Outside the centre television crews filming and interviewing people, even a NZ team were there
Radio stations doing live broadcasts, ABC & 3AW

Centrelink were setup doing the paperwork for people, Telstra handing out mobile phones and chargers to people who had flat phone batteries. Doctors writing scripts to people who had left without medication.

I took my mum down to the main street to grab a coffee and get her out of the relief centre as it was such a sad place to be at and practically every business was giving away goods or services at cost or free,,,free haircuts, free bread and milk etc

As Fraser said in his post, what the survivors really require is cash donations.

Today I was so happy to firstly see that mum was ok and secondly to feel so proud to be an Australian in times like this

It is great that she has come through this tradgety, I hope all is good with your mother Gav, sometimes there can be a sense of guilt that your house has survived and your neighbour hasn't, it is still a very traumatic experience for all involved, don't forget you as well mate, take care.

Baz.

[JDNSW]

Interesting article - it says no more than many of us already know. Its importance is the qualifications of the author, which may have some influence, although I doubt it will have much.

I hope I am wrong, and it is possible that the scale of this disaster will sway some (enough) of the urban greenies or the politicians that court them.

I would add that the effects of the urban greenies and those who court them are not only seen in the care of forests, but in the state and local council rules that prevent homeowners from making their homes safer by removing dangerous trees. Look for attempts at legal action by people who have lost their homes after being refused permits to remove trees. There are certain to be some in this situation, but far more who did not even look for a permit because they knew it was a waste of time and money to try.

John

[UncleHo]

G'day JDNSW :)


I would tend to agree with you there, the rabid green movement has had a lot of input into councils policies, and it is those that live in inner city addresses, or are from overseas, and have NO KNOWLEDGE of the devastation caused by Austalian Bushfires, totally different to US Wildfires, which are mainly plantation or wild pine forrests, I would suggest that some of those most vocal, be taken up to the affected areas and shown the results of their rabid policies,and the utter devastation caused by this.


rant over


cheers

[fraser130]

While it's fresh in my mind, I have a friend that may have lost his house (family of 4) but he hasn't been let back in to upper plenty yet so they don't know.
Anyway, is there anyone out there has (or knows of someone who has) a medium/large caravan that they could borrow if the need arrives?
It would be a small consolation if accomodation could be sorted for them while they rebuild.

I would be happy to tow it.

Thanks,

Fraser

[Vern]

This is an aeriel photo of my friends place that i mentioned.
Very sad
Bushfire | threat | Melbourne | CFA | DSE | Victoria | fire | dead | toll | survivor | Kinglake | Marysville | Arthurs Creek | burn | Strathewen | Humevale | Bendigo | Wandong | St Andrews (http://www.theage.com.au:80/national/tiny-flowerdale-blossoms-no-longer-20090209-82dg.html)

[81stubee]

I just got off the phone from a friend in Healesville. His parents lost everything in the Fire in Chum Creek, except themselves. They have been lucky enough to get back in everytime the wind changes and have since found all her jewellery including wedding rings.

He also said that he had a phone call today, he's a sparky, from a lady wanting him to rough in her new kitchen :o her house was 1km from the fire front and she could not understand why he was turning the job down. In the end he told her to ring another sparkie. Needless to say no-one would do the job for her.

I must say though I think this is an example of how some of the people in the towns, that have been on the edge for days.

Stu

[BilboBoggles]

I was reading that some of the local councils in the Healesville area force residents to plant native vegetation right up close to the house.

I also see millions spent by the Shire of Yarra Ranges on signage warning of dangerous trees close to the road in our area. FFS, cut the bloody trees down, plant 3X as many some where else. How much does it cost to put up 4 sets of warning signs, paint warning stripes on the road, to warn of a low branch. What a waste of money. And yet they can't put proper warning signs on school crossings. In a fire that damned low branch is going to fall on the road and block it - and KILL PEOPLE.:mad:

I firmly believe the local councils contributed to this mess directly or indirectly through their over zealous protection of trees at the expense of human lives.

[rovercare]

About 5k up the road from my joint, my place is away from the fire, was heading my way until the south easterly came in about 1800

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/970.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/971.jpg

Not to many pics as some of the area's are...well....best left alone at the moment:(

[fraser130]

My mate did lose his house, 2 sheds, 1971 Monaro in pristine condition, campertrailer, backhoe, and an "A" model Ford.
He has found a house to stay in close by, so no need for a caravan.

Cheers all,

Fraser

[lardy]

the article for those that couldnt get to it..

there is something wrong with the landy im not getting a spark out of it :sparks from a diesel engine

[EchiDna]

About 5k up the road from my joint, my place is away from the fire, was heading my way until the south easterly came in about 1800

*snip*

Not to many pics as some of the area's are...well....best left alone at the moment:(

mate - to be honest, I for one am just happy to see you post again now that the threat has lessened :)

too many bad memories of my youth cleaning up after ash Wednesday...

[hook]

In reality beyond the resource capabilities of the CFA/DSE etc.
Even if you could do it the reduced fuel loads would mean you would have to burn under hotter/drier conditions = more chance of escapes.


Martyn

:twisted:
Yer,
That why, in SA, when we were aloud to do it,
we did it in the winter months.

[Bushie]

:twisted:
Yer,
That why, in SA, when we were aloud to do it,
we did it in the winter months.


I think you've missed my point, HR is done in the cooler weather, but if you were to burn every 12 months (assuming we're not talking grassland) then there would be a much reduced load of fuel. To get this sp****r fuel to burn effectively it would have to be drier, or done in warmer weather.


Martyn

[p38arover]

To get this sp****r fuel to burn effectively it would have to be drier, or done in warmer weather.

Now what did the swear filter edit out? :confused:

[350RRC]

Now what did the swear filter edit out? :confused:

****

cheers, DL

[fraser130]

Now what did the swear filter edit out? :confused:

bumm

[DeeJay]

there is something wrong with the landy im not getting a spark out of it :sparks from a diesel engine

I had a mate start a fire with a diesel generator. He was a Lister technician & told the hotel owner to go thru the place & turn on all the switches while the master switch was off. He then threw the master switch which loaded down the diesel engine which threw out a cloud of burning carbon which started a fairly major bushfire.
It made for an interesting court case. So I guess that was the kind of spark referred to in the article.

[CraigE]

I think you've missed my point, HR is done in the cooler weather, but if you were to burn every 12 months (assuming we're not talking grassland) then there would be a much reduced load of fuel. To get this sp****r fuel to burn effectively it would have to be drier, or done in warmer weather.


Martyn
While they do so in WA, it is not always succesfull and a number have gotten out of control or have swamped Perth with smoke for days at a time causing issues with allergy sufferers.
It has its pro's and con's, but every burn needs to be considered very carefully.

[Redback]

Now what did the swear filter edit out? :confused:

sp.A.R.S.E.r

[willem]

G'day guys,

I have put together my thoughts on the bushfires, their causes and what we can do about them on my website:

This Is Australia.com.au - Australian Cottage Industry Products and other Australian Information (http://www.ThisIsAustralia.com.au)

Its a bit too long to post here. I would appreciate comments and feedback, either here or on the website.

Thanks

Willem

[ivery819]

Thanks willem
That's a pretty well researched and balanced article.
However you will probably attract some criticism about some of the points you raised.
To that end I would recommend that anyone interested in finding out more background to what you are saying invest a couple of hours. Carefully read the following reports. I might add that these reports are only some of many. To me, they seemed to be amongst the most useful.

http://www.ipa.org.au/library/IPAbackgrounder16-2.pdf

http://www.tca.org.au/reportssubmissions/docs/Bushfires Prescribed Burning and Global warming.pdf

[Dmmos]

Council ignored warning over trees before Victoria bushfires (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25038717-5018722,00.html)

(Another article from the Aus regarding the eco-fringe)...

:angrylock:

[willem]

Thanks willem
That's a pretty well researched and balanced article.
However you will probably attract some criticism about some of the points you raised.


Thanks, Peter,

I agree that there will be criticism - I suppose that is what you expect when you go out on a limb and make a comment about anything.

I do appreciate the links you put up. I am reading the first and will go on to the second when I have time.

Thanks for the encouragement. :)

Willem

[cewilson]

Willem - the one part I disagree with your story is the 'go or stay' philosophy. There are plenty of examples of people that stayed, survived and saved their homes. Of the people that didn't - they didn't have their home prepared correctly, they had trees right around their properties, they panicked or they go plain unlucky.

If done correctly it is sound advice - but not for everyone.


One thing I noticed missing out of the story - have a look at the pictures of the towns that have been hit. Then have a look at the pictures of Canberra when it got hit. What's the common factor in both fires?

[p38arover]

sp.A.R.S.E.r
Ahh! Well done, Baz. :)

[willem]

Willem - the one part I disagree with your story is the 'go or stay' philosophy. There are plenty of examples of people that stayed, survived and saved their homes. Of the people that didn't - they didn't have their home prepared correctly, they had trees right around their properties, they panicked or they go plain unlucky.

If done correctly it is sound advice - but not for everyone.


One thing I noticed missing out of the story - have a look at the pictures of the towns that have been hit. Then have a look at the pictures of Canberra when it got hit. What's the common factor in both fires?

Thanks for the response.

I take your point that some people were able to successfully defend their homes and survive. But there were many who were not able to do so. They prepared, got caught in something far bigger and more terrifying than they had imagined and many died as a result. My belief is that the advice given is sound advice for ordinary bushfires, but when there are extreme conditions with high fuel levels like there were on Saturday then the best defense no longer works. Its too big, too powerful, it just overruns our defenses. This article from 'The Age' might be worth a read to get a bit of the picture:

People died doing exactly what they were told to do | theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/people-died-doing-exactly-what-they-were-told-to-do-20090210-83nz.html?page=2)

But thanks for your response. Its in talking about these things that we learn and hopefully help to avoid a disaster nest time.

Willem

[JDNSW]

Thanks for the response.

I take your point that some people were able to successfully defend their homes and survive. But there were many who were not able to do so. They prepared, got caught in something far bigger and more terrifying than they had imagined and many died as a result. My belief is that the advice given is sound advice for ordinary bushfires, but when there are extreme conditions with high fuel levels like there were on Saturday then the best defense no longer works. Its too big, too powerful, it just overruns our defenses. This article from 'The Age' might be worth a read to get a bit of the picture:

People died doing exactly what they were told to do | theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/people-died-doing-exactly-what-they-were-told-to-do-20090210-83nz.html?page=2)

But thanks for your response. Its in talking about these things that we learn and hopefully help to avoid a disaster nest time.

Willem

Some people died doing what they were told to do - but they were very few compared to the ones who died leaving too late. Not that they could in general be blamed for that - if you were going to leave it would have had to be before there was any real fire threat in many cases. From what I have seen on the news, I expect that most (not all) deaths will turn out to be those who left late and were caught on the road. And many of those who died defending their house will be ones who had indefensible houses, although there will be some whose houses would have been defensible against a normal fire.

In the case of this fire, the present "stay and defend a prepared house or leave early" had no practical alternatives - if a compulsory evacuation had been attempted, I suggest that the death toll would have been far higher - the fire advanced so rapidly that it would have caught far more on the road. If the evacuation had been very early (on the basis of the weather) it would have to have involved far more people than were actually affected, and the traffic would have been so heavy that it is likely that many would have been caught on the road again. I have travelled on those roads just at the start or finish of a long weekend, and the traffic is stop start - and that would be a lot fewer cars than you would have if you evacuated a vast area of Victoria.

In my view, the only practical alternative to what happened is to be better prepared - as you point out, fuel reduction, but also improved preparedness on a town and individual house basis - fire safer housing, fire refuges (these were built in a number of places after Ash Wednesday - what happened?) ditch rules that prevent residents from clearing round their houses.

It is to be hoped that after this most of the houses rebuilt will be a lot safer, but there are still a lot of towns that were saved and are full of equally at risk houses. The next fire will burn a somewhat different area I expect.

John

[Bushie]

I think you've missed my point, HR is done in the cooler weather, but if you were to burn every 12 months (assuming we're not talking grassland) then there would be a much reduced load of fuel. To get this sp****r fuel to burn effectively it would have to be drier, or done in warmer weather.


Martyn

Baz got it right - I didn't notice that the swear filter would filter within words as well :mad::mad:


Willem - the one part I disagree with your story is the 'go or stay' philosophy. There are plenty of examples of people that stayed, survived and saved their homes. Of the people that didn't - they didn't have their home prepared correctly, they had trees right around their properties, they panicked or they go plain unlucky.

If done correctly it is sound advice - but not for everyone.


One thing that is missing and all the advice in the world won't be able to replicate is the actual experience. Many people intend to stay and defend with the best of intention, but when the fire actually hits it overwhelms them - the noise, the heat, the smoke, lack of visibility and the darkness. Unless you have had some experience for many people it becomes too much and they bale out at the last minute. As I said early Sunday morning there appeared to be a high number of people killed in cars, indicative of fleeing at the last minute, and what bushfire authorities specifically dont recommend.

It will be interesting in the final analysis to see how much house to house ignition there was (although the homes don't seem to fit the close suburban model)


Martyn

[ivery819]

An interesting article in The Sydney Morning Herald

Click here to read it (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/green-ideas-must-take-blame-for-deaths-20090211-84mk.html?page=-1)

And the other extreme:
Garrett to consider banning control burning !
Click here to read it (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25042644-5018722,00.html)

And from 6 years ago:

Click here to read it (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25042636-5018722,00.html)

I AM OUTRAGED AT THE UNNECESSARY LOSS OF LIFE AS WELL THE LOSS OFANIMALS AND PROPERTY

[V8Landy]

Yeh i agree with the greens taking some of the blame. :angrylock:

[Sprint]

It will be interesting in the final analysis to see how much house to house ignition there was (although the homes don't seem to fit the close suburban model)

unfortunately, they're in bushland, and between trees and shrubs being so close to homes, and the leaf litter that wouldve accumulated in the gutters, even a mild bushfire would pose a threat, nevermind the heat encountered in a real firestorm, windows explode or melt, then the curtains spontaneously combust, and the rest of the house goes with it

[willem]

An interesting article in The Sydney Morning Herald


I AM OUTRAGED AT THE UNNECESSARY LOSS OF LIFE AS WELL THE LOSS OFANIMALS AND PROPERTY

I share your outrage!

Willem

[Davo]

So it sounds to me as if - because I know nothing on the subject - usually you can defend a house if you're well prepared, but this was so intense there was nothing you could do. Is that right? Was this beyond any firefighting? Was the only chance of survival to get out really early or to have a bunker to hide in?

[ivery819]

Was the only chance of survival to get out really early or to have a bunker to hide in?

The anecdotal information confirms what you are saying......with the proviso that you had enough time to get from where you were located to the bunker. In some cases this would appear to have been less than 2 minutes warning.

[Dmmos]

Fined for illegal clearing, family now feel vindicated (http://www.smh.com.au/national/fined-for-illegal-clearing-family-now-feel-vindicated-20090212-85bd.html?page=-1)

Disturbing...

[ivery819]

Quote
Dmmos
"Fined for illegal clearing, family now feel vindicated
Disturbing..."

Transgrid were fined $500,000-00 for clearing under their powerlines. In the 2003 Canberra fires it was shown that the TransGrid clearing acted as a major refuge and saved a significant number of the native wildlife that would otherwise have perished.
Environmental vandals ? I don't think so.
Refund of the fine as a result of service to the environment-----no way !

[p38arover]

Fined for illegal clearing, family now feel vindicated (http://www.smh.com.au/national/fined-for-illegal-clearing-family-now-feel-vindicated-20090212-85bd.html?page=-1)


Disturbing...

Maybe the council would like to refund the $100,000 - I suggest they should.

There have been cases in NSW where councils have refused permission to fell trees and those trees have subsequently fallen and caused damage. In at least one case, the homeowner was killed when the tree fell in their house.

[ivery819]

The Australian is conducting an on-line poll about the issue of fire fuel loads:

Click here for poll (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22073824-5013404,00.html)

If you feel strongly about this issue then jump in and vote !

[dullbird]

Finally after trying all night I have gotten through to donate!!!

[George130]

I am going to walk into a bank during the week to donate....much easier :D:D
We decided on an amount and then decided to split it 50/50 with the fire fund and the flood fund ;)

Good choice.
Wife was only commenting today that there is not a lot about aid for the floods.

[DiscoTDI]

An interesting article in The Sydney Morning Herald

Click here to read it (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/green-ideas-must-take-blame-for-deaths-20090211-84mk.html?page=-1)

And the other extreme:
Garrett to consider banning control burning !
Click here to read it (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25042644-5018722,00.html)

And from 6 years ago:

Click here to read it (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25042636-5018722,00.html)

I AM OUTRAGED AT THE UNNECESSARY LOSS OF LIFE AS WELL THE LOSS OFANIMALS AND PROPERTY


Could someone please shed some light on this poor simple Queenslander but in that second article I read this quote
"Victoria has environmental management plans approved by the Department of Environment, Heritage, Water and the Arts that protect the environment and ensure that federal environmental approval processes do not get in the way of effective fire management in Victoria,"

Now is that one department or am I correct in assuming what the does the department of the arts have to do with environmental managment.

[953]

So it sounds to me as if - because I know nothing on the subject - usually you can defend a house if you're well prepared, but this was so intense there was nothing you could do. Is that right? Was this beyond any firefighting? Was the only chance of survival to get out really early or to have a bunker to hide in?

I believe there are bushfires & there are bushfires. I dont understand why they are all generally classified under the same heading. People must realise that the chances of survival varie from one situation to the next. Open farm land with a few trees & grassland is obviously totally different to living in a forest;).
Cherers Dean.

[Davy]

One thing us simple Queenslanders agree on is, we'll be right mate, look after the Vics

Davy in Ingham ( still afloat)

[Dmmos]

Could someone please shed some light on this poor simple Queenslander but in that second article I read this quote
"Victoria has environmental management plans approved by the Department of Environment, Heritage, Water and the Arts that protect the environment and ensure that federal environmental approval processes do not get in the way of effective fire management in Victoria,"

Now is that one department or am I correct in assuming what the does the department of the arts have to do with environmental managment.

At first I laughed at this, then I checked and that's the federal agency :o

Reading through the website, though, is bloody terrifying...

[Sprint]

Maybe the council would like to refund the $100,000 - I suggest they should.
i want to see someone try to sue a council for damages

[ivery819]

One thing us simple Queenslanders agree on is, we'll be right mate, look after the Vics

Davy in Ingham ( still afloat)

Davy
At the moment we are focused on Victoria because we believe that Governments & bureaucrats have contributed to the deaths of what is estimated now to be over 300 people.
But we haven't forgotten Qld !
On our Agmates site Steve Truman broke the story and lobbied for action in Qld with pleasing results.
You can read about it here
(http://www.agmates.com/blog/2009/02/06/swift-action-by-ministers-eases-flood-ravaged-nq-grazier-anguish/)
We send you our best wishes and while it appears that your predicament is being overshadowed by events in Victoria we are doing our modest best for you as well!

[lardy]

I had a mate start a fire with a diesel generator. He was a Lister technician & told the hotel owner to go thru the place & turn on all the switches while the master switch was off. He then threw the master switch which loaded down the diesel engine which threw out a cloud of burning carbon which started a fairly major bushfire.
It made for an interesting court case. So I guess that was the kind of spark referred to in the article.

That is interestingly scary as a prospect who'd have thought it? ....not your mate i'm guessing ....

[rovercare]

Well, the person responsible for the fires locals has been arrested and charged, he lived 2 houses down from a mate, used to light fires in his backyard all the time, definately a nuff nuff

Oh and a puta full of kiddy porn to make him even more likeable:mad:

[DiscoTDI]

Well, the person responsible for the fires locals has been arrested and charged, he lived 2 houses down from a mate, used to light fires in his backyard all the time, definately a nuff nuff

Oh and a puta full of kiddy porn to make him even more likeable:mad:

What a charmer:nazilock:

[DeeJay]

On a ( slightly) lighter note.
I wonder if The PETA group actually understand what a backburning operation is?
:p

Firefighter recognised for aiding furry friend



February 14, 2009 - 1:59PM

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/02/692.jpg David Tree gives Sam the koala a drink during the bushfires.


The firefighter who gave an injured koala a drink of water during a tender moment in a burnt-out forest will be recognised by an animal rights group.
`Sam' the koala was spotted by Victorian volunteer firefighter David Tree moving around on scorched paws.
Mr Tree crouched down and offered the furry marsupial a gulp from his water bottle, which it accepted.
An image was taken of the moment and broadcast on the internet and in newspapers, capturing hearts the world over.
Now Mr Tree's efforts have earned him recognition from the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) Asia-Pacific.
The organisation announced today that Mr Tree would receive the Hero to Animals Award for the rescue, which occurred on February 1 as part of backburning operations near Mirboo North, about 150 kilometres east of Melbourne.
Those fires destroyed 30 houses, cars and other property before being contained on February 7.
No one was killed in those fires, though 181 people have died across the state in other blazes, some suspected to have been deliberately lit.
"This tragedy has shown the best and worst in people," PETA director Jason Baker said.
"The compassion that David Tree showed in caring for Sam is an inspiration to others throughout the community and beyond."
PETA has also written to the Victorian Director of Public Prosecutions urging it to pursue animal cruelty charges after up to one million native animals perished in the fires.
"Because scores of animals weren't as lucky as Sam, PETA is strongly urging the prosecutor to pursue cruelty-to-animals charges," Mr Baker said.
Sam is doing well after being taken into the care of the Mountain Ash Wildlife Shelter in Rawson, east of Melbourne, where fires continue to burn.
AAP/AP

[Sprint]

I wonder if The PETA group actually understand backburning

considering they have neither a firm grasp on sanity or the concept of reality, i doubt it

[Disco300Tdi]

Today my dear mum (79) and her dog Blake moved back into her home in Kinglake. :D

The power is back on in her area, insurance assesors have been to measure up the burnt sheds and it is all go from here. :D
Next week I will be taking my CT down there for some of her less fortunate friends to use indefinetly.

[Sprint]

good to hear your mum is safe!

[feral]

Just reading the newspapers today and notice that the lawyers are making their move.

One extraordinary thing which I find unbelievable is the lack of regulation of power lines.

From the papers....


The Phoenix taskforce is examining a two-kilometre stretch of power line in Kilmore East that snapped during strong winds and record heat about 11am last Saturday. Within minutes a nearby pine forest was ablaze. Within six hours the fire had destroyed nearly every building in the towns in its path.

And again.....


A spokesman for Energy Safe Victoria said the government body had audited the network's bushfire risk to make sure required distances between power lines and vegetation were maintained. Power companies had been given a clean bill of health, and electricity firms were judged to be "well prepared for the 2008-09 bushfire season".

He said there were no regulations applying to the distances between poles supporting electricity lines and spans of one kilometre were not unusual.



No regulations.......:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[JDNSW]

Just reading the newspapers today and notice that the lawyers are making their move.

One extraordinary thing which I find unbelievable is the lack of regulation of power lines.

From the papers....



And again.....





No regulations.......:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

The lack of regulations is probably the result of the fact that until fairly recently the power transmission grid in Victoria was run by a state government commission. Which I thought would have learned it's lesson quite a few years ago after fires started by their infrastructure resulted in big payouts.

But simply making regulations is not the answer - if effective regulations were introduced they would result in a very large increase in electricity bills throughout the state - and what government would be re-elected after that?

John

[feral]

I would have thought that regulations would have been based on the engineering of the network.

It appears that you can string any power line as long as you like. Even the spokesman would make a good politician stated that 'no regulations applying to the distances between poles supporting electricity lines and spans of one kilometre were not unusual.'

This line was two kilometres and it snapped. What hope did they have when a two kilometre fire front just started? :twisted:

[p38arover]

This line was two kilometres and it snapped. What hope did they have when a two kilometre fire line just started? :twisted:

Would there be arcing along a full 2 km of fallen line?

How long after a fall would the automatic safety systems shut down the power on a line?

[rovercare]

Would there be arcing along a full 2 km of fallen line?

How long after a fall would the automatic safety systems shut down the power on a line?

Pretty quickly, but its likely the 3 retrys wouldn't of helped;)

[Bigbjorn]

I have been talking to an old mate who was burnt out at Mt. Macedon a few years ago in major bush fires. They rebuilt and sold to move to the NSW South-west Slopes away from forests and fires. Dealing with their insurer almost put both of them in psychiatric care, he says.

He tells me that recommendations were made in the ensuing enquiries and were mostly ignored by residents who went back and adopted the same life style as before the fires.

One recommendation was that there be no trees/plants/shrubs etc. over 500mm high within 20 metres of the house, and no combustible structures or objects in the same area. Where the blocks were large enough for this to apply, trees outside the 20 metre zone be kept at a height so as to not reach into the 20 metre zone, if they fell in a fire.

Another recommendation was that where possible a concrete or masonry refuge, separate from the house, be built sunk into the ground.

[JDNSW]

I have been talking to an old mate who was burnt out at Mt. Macedon a few years ago in major bush fires. They rebuilt and sold to move to the NSW South-west Slopes away from forests and fires. Dealing with their insurer almost put both of them in psychiatric care, he says.

He tells me that recommendations were made in the ensuing enquiries and were mostly ignored by residents who went back and adopted the same life style as before the fires.

One recommendation was that there be no trees/plants/shrubs etc. over 500mm high within 20 metres of the house, and no combustible structures or objects in the same area. Where the blocks were large enough for this to apply, trees outside the 20 metre zone be kept at a height so as to not reach into the 20 metre zone, if they fell in a fire.

Another recommendation was that where possible a concrete or masonry refuge, separate from the house, be built sunk into the ground.

Common sense. But in the council area most affected by the fires, and in fact in most if not all of Victoria, if not the rest of the country, you will be heavily fined if you cut down as much as one native tree and do not replace it.
The bureaucracy you have to go through in most places to get permission to clear this zone would put most people off, and in almost all cases permission would be refused anyway. This divides the people affected into two groups - those that just give up and take the risk, and those that just give up and clear the zone anyway - and hope the neighbours don't dob them in.
(I had a reasonable zone round the house anyway, and it was widened by the RFS during the fire two years ago.)

John

John

[EchiDna]

Actually John, it is worse than that - it applies to all trees, native and exotic...

I've seen many many homes built in the last 20 years at Mt Macedon "integrating" the native bush into their design - the worst I can think of has a mature mountain ash surrounded on 3 sides (with about a 2 meter gap) by the house - its had 3-4 limbs drop through the roof in the last 10 years - I wonder if the insurance company pays out on that?

[Bigbjorn]

Actually John, it is worse than that - it applies to all trees, native and exotic...

I've seen many many homes built in the last 20 years at Mt Macedon "integrating" the native bush into their design - the worst I can think of has a mature mountain ash surrounded on 3 sides (with about a 2 meter gap) by the house - its had 3-4 limbs drop through the roof in the last 10 years - I wonder if the insurance company pays out on that?

My mate says there was one house near him at Mt. Macedon that was burnt to the ground that had huge trees 100' - 140' high all around as close as 5 metres. Plus lots of smaller trees and shrubs. Place was apparently full of little pieds-a-terre nestling in the bush. Disasters in waiting.

[George130]

Actually John, it is worse than that - it applies to all trees, native and exotic...

I've seen many many homes built in the last 20 years at Mt Macedon "integrating" the native bush into their design - the worst I can think of has a mature mountain ash surrounded on 3 sides (with about a 2 meter gap) by the house - its had 3-4 limbs drop through the roof in the last 10 years - I wonder if the insurance company pays out on that?

Yep the tree thing is out of control. 5 years and still waiting for permission to remove dead trees at our place. Those who have seem our yard will agree it is a fire waiting to happen. 1/4 an acre 3-5 foot deep with pine needles when we mooved in. Most of that has gone but still that 1/4 acre is covered with pine trees only a couple of metres apart and so big I have no idea how they will be removed when the time comes.
We have cleared shrubs from a lot of the rest of the block but still.
We have at least 3 times as many trees and any other block around us and nearly all the nature stip ones are dead.

[Treads]

I'm heading down to Healesville today to lead an RFS strike team in the area until relieved on Saturday.
From reading this mornings news.com.au it should be an interesting few days :eek:

[dickyjoe]

Hi all,

Just a quick note to say thankyou for everyone for there support and good will over the past two weeks. My family was directly impacted by the fires started in the Beechworth area. Mum and Dad own a property in Glen Creek which is near Mudgegonga and Dederang. They are lucky and were affected in a minor way. They have lost about 2km of fencing and about 10acres of there property. The house and sheds still stand.

The fundraising and support is truely amazing. I am at a training course in Melbourne this week and had a tear in my eye from everyones support for the victims.

I have uploaded some pics from the week of chasing fires in the farm truck.

Bush Fires 2009 pictures by dickyjoe - Photobucket (http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt233/dickyjoe/Bush%20Fires%202009/)

Thankyou

Richard

[cewilson]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we have just lost a firefighter to a tree tonight. Apparently he comes from the ACT, as did his passenger who was injured.

On top of this a NSW volunteer was injured today in another accident with a tree. This is on top of the 2 Riverina firies that were severely injured a couple of days ago from the same thing.

I'd like to pass on condolences as well as remind anyone heading for that area to keep your eyes pointing up every now and again. Now is not the time to lose people - we haven't come this far for this to happen.

Chris

[matbor]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we have just lost a firefighter to a tree tonight. Apparently he comes from the ACT, as did his passenger who was injured.

On top of this a NSW volunteer was injured today in another accident with a tree. This is on top of the 2 Riverina firies that were severely injured a couple of days ago from the same thing.

I'd like to pass on condolences as well as remind anyone heading for that area to keep your eyes pointing up every now and again. Now is not the time to lose people - we haven't come this far for this to happen.

Chris

Falling tree kills firefighter near Marysville - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/17/2494107.htm)

[VladTepes]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we have just lost a firefighter to a tree tonight. Apparently he comes from the ACT, as did his passenger who was injured.

I'd like to pass on condolences
Chris

Dave Balfour was a member of (and occasional contributor to) another forum I regularly inhabit. His loss is deeply felt by the members and especially those other fire fighters who were privileged to fight alongside him. He leaves a young family. RIP Dave.




Many points have been made in this thread re the Greens policies on controlled burns etc. QLD you go to the polls soon. I may be preaching to the converted here but don't vote for them.

[waynep]

One CFA tanker was destroyed and 3 CFA firefighters received burn injuries fighting a fire in the Belgrave area two days ago. Reading the account, they were lucky to survive the flashover, however the extra safety measures put in place following the Linton tragedy seem to have helped ( extra shielding on the tankers, and requiring at least 1000 litres of water to remain in the tank for self protection etc. )

The fire burnt over from Birds Land Reserve to a few hundred metres of our old property in Belgrave Sth, before a wind change forced in north. It was started by a grass slashing machine, apparently.

This was on a moderate day. The fight is now on to contain all these fires before Friday's predicted bad conditions

The endless summer of fires.......and no meaningful rain on the horizon. :(

[Sprint]

how do the landcruisers get away without the 1000L self protection tank?